WCS America - Challenger League Qualifier Results

On May 06 2013 12:47 Csong wrote:
wow did all the chinese players make it in?!

On May 06 2013 13:43 MrMotionPicture wrote:
I am excited to see more of these Chinese players and others that you don't hear much about.

On May 06 2013 13:40 Sevredol wrote:
Damn, glad to see a New Zealand player in there! I get horrible lag on both the NA and SEA servers, makes micro difficult. Awesome that someone has overcome this problem.

On May 06 2013 13:29 Alryk wrote:
Great stuff! Pretty nice defense by north america, could have been a lot worse. (No "well Hyun had to deal with lag" excuses allowed, because so did all of the Chinese players who qualified, plus some koreans made it in anyways )

On May 06 2013 14:24 wklbishop wrote:


After reading this comment I really have to say something about lag and the varying perspective on it...

I remember after TSL3 when there was a huge shitstorm and Jinro came out with a statement saying it wasn't a big deal. For the most part people did not think it was a big deal and those who did were shouted down. Then MLG Columbus happened and Koreans dominated. Compounding that was TL refusing to participate in EGMC because of complaints in regards to cross-server play (despite Jinro saying it wasn't a big deal) which said TL thought lag was a factor. People thought lag was a HUGE deal after that. Nowadays, with Koreans losing games here and there offline as well, people don't think it's a big deal.

Feels like it's a pendulum.

Personally I feel like people either oversell it or undersell. Can't seem to find a in between.

On May 06 2013 14:36 Waxangel wrote:


Yeah, fans are definitely willing to handwave lag complaints away if it means a popular foreigner is defeating a Korean. In all fairness, they'll also bring up lag complaints again if a less known foreigner beats a popular Korean .

Overall, though, KR-NA doesn't seem to be all that big a deal for the Koreans. They destroyed plenty of online leagues and qualifiers in the past, and this NA-Challenger qualifier really seems like an outlier to me.

On May 06 2013 12:50 bittman wrote:
Some totally unexpected stuff in there. Nationalistically sad that PiG didn't make it through. But someone from across the Tasman made it in Tilea. Good to see a SEA & female rep in there.

On May 06 2013 15:14 selboN wrote:

Female?

On May 06 2013 14:24 wklbishop wrote:


After reading this comment I really have to say something about lag and the varying perspective on it...

I remember after TSL3 when there was a huge shitstorm and Jinro came out with a statement saying it wasn't a big deal. For the most part people did not think it was a big deal and those who did were shouted down. Then MLG Columbus happened and Koreans dominated. Compounding that was TL refusing to participate in EGMC because of complaints in regards to cross-server play (despite Jinro saying it wasn't a big deal) which said TL thought lag was a factor. People thought lag was a HUGE deal after that. Nowadays, with Koreans losing games here and there offline as well, people don't think it's a big deal.

Feels like it's a pendulum.

Personally I feel like people either oversell it or undersell. Can't seem to find a in between.

On May 06 2013 15:21 JohnHarr wrote:

puCK is a female.

On May 06 2013 15:22 SCWind wrote:

Last I heard puck said he/she wasn't 100% certain if he/she wanted to transition to female any more. So it's probably best not to talk about it at all

On May 06 2013 15:36 [Erasmus] wrote:


Tilea is the female being referred to here...

On May 06 2013 14:34 ragz_gt wrote:


With all the Chinese players qualifying kinda make the lag issue moot.

On May 06 2013 16:41 skatblast wrote:
its a shame they wouldn't even let xigua compete in the challenger Cool to see demuslim in there, i see him as one of the "challengers" of the challenger league.

On May 06 2013 16:55 digmouse wrote:

AKA me.

On May 06 2013 12:13 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:
The WCS America Challenger League qualifiers concluded with sixteen players earning spots in the Season 1 Challenger League. These players will have a chance to earn spots in next season's Premier League.

Qualified Players:
iG.jim
c.Bails
ROOT.Puck
iG.MacSed
Quantic.HwangSin
TOP
ROOT.Sage
Liquid`TaeJa
Xenocider
EG.DeMusliM.RC
FXONeeb
iG.Xy
FXODrunkenboi
EG.Jaedong.RC
MYi.Tilea
YoeIM.Ian

Also, many notable players failed to qualify through the qualifiers, such as former Code S runner-up Quantic.HyuN (eliminated by Puck and Sage), Proleague regulars EG.JYP.RC and Liquid`Zenio, and number of popular players such as ROOT.CatZ, EG.iNcontroL.RC, NonY and coL.qxc. Check Liquipedia for the full list of eliminated players and brackets.

On May 06 2013 15:12 wklbishop wrote:


You bring up a great point about popular Korean and I feel like that relates to how these days lag isn't talked about as often. I suspect it has to do with the fact that mid-tier Koreans are playing more often than JUST high-level/well-known ones. 2 years ago, only top level Koreans would be playing, I mean... MC, Losira, MMA at MLG Columbus is like... the present-day equivalent of SoS, Leenock, and Flash being the only ones to go to a foreign tournament.

If Flash played cross-server in EU instead of Finale... that is going to be one messy LR. I mean... if we had a repeat of TSL3 only with Innovation and Life losing (in place of MVP and Nestea), the shit will go crazy.

THEN AGAIN, to play Devil's advocate against myself. Macro has become increasingly important and maps have grown exponentially bigger which kind of downplays some of the effects of lag. Also no more 4 gate PvP where every shot counts nor Taldarim style ZvZ (as much). And actual experience with dealing with lag as argued by Jinro probably has a factor as Koreans played more on NA.

And another counterpoint to my devil's advocate is the fact that ROOT specifically stated one of the reasons they moved to California was for better ping to the KR server; moving for better ping says a lot in of itself about pros opinions of lag.

Haha, Anyways, I have no real argument. Just that, it's a clusterfuck mess that people go too much of one direction typically. xD

On May 06 2013 12:16 Wunder wrote:
Jimcredibleeeee! Happy so many Chinese players managed to get in.

On May 06 2013 19:53 Larkin wrote:
Only 4 Americans...

On May 06 2013 15:36 [Erasmus] wrote:


Tilea is the female being referred to here...

On May 06 2013 18:03 Greendotz wrote:


Two days ago MC was knocked out of the EU Challenger qualifiers (ironically) by a player called noname. During that qualifier MC was playing from Germany and I believe he had been for a couple of days (if it’s not ping-lag it’s jet-lag -_-). If he had been in Korea could you imagine what the hysteria the fanboys would whip up over lag issues?

It seems like such a shame that when the foreigners can bring an upset there’s a worryingly high number of people who’s sole job seems to be reminding everyone that they’re worthless and they only won due to unfair advantages.

On May 06 2013 19:58 Ribbon wrote:


Oh hey, I didn't know about her. Nice to see more female players getting results.

Wish there were more Americans, though.

On May 06 2013 21:05 wklbishop wrote:


You sound very angry

You should relax, maybe take a few days off the forum. When people start using language like worthless to describe anything, I assume it's time to take a break from the forums and just enjoy the games.

On May 06 2013 21:05 wklbishop wrote:


You sound very angry

You should relax, maybe take a few days off the forum. When people start using language like worthless to describe anything, I assume it's time to take a break from the forums and just enjoy the games.

On May 07 2013 01:56 Disengaged wrote:
Not really WCS "America" anymore lol

On May 06 2013 23:31 Acrofales wrote:



Oh, and it's not just 5 Americans (which in and of itself is a success for America, imho), it is only 4 Koreans. Players like Zenio and JYP got housted. And anybody saying Chinese should not be in the WCS AM, until there is a WCS Asia (as opposed to a WCS Korea), they have no real alternative.

On May 07 2013 01:56 Disengaged wrote:
Not really WCS "America" anymore lol

On May 07 2013 02:31 SCST wrote:


The biggest falsehood perpetrated on these forums . . . "Chinese players just have no choice, they are helpless and must compete in America's regional WCS" . . . this is pure propaganda. I say propaganda because it's so utterly obvious that WCS Korea is the equivalent of WCS Asia at this time. Korea is next door to China. Do we need geography lessons? Korea is literally next door to China.

The reason the Chinese are competing in the America WCS is not because they "have no choice", it's because they want to, so that they can acquire prize money easier than competing in their local region. It's a loophole, plain and simple. Stop defending it like it's some freaking sob story.

On May 07 2013 02:31 SCST wrote:


The biggest falsehood perpetrated on these forums . . . "Chinese players just have no choice, they are helpless and must compete in America's regional WCS" . . . this is pure propaganda. I say propaganda because it's so utterly obvious that WCS Korea is the equivalent of WCS Asia at this time. Korea is next door to China. Do we need geography lessons? Korea is literally next door to China.

The reason the Chinese are competing in the America WCS is not because they "have no choice", it's because they want to, so that they can acquire prize money easier than competing in their local region. It's a loophole, plain and simple. Stop defending it like it's some freaking sob story.

On May 07 2013 02:54 Rostam wrote:


Great point. I'm sure their choice has nothing to do with the fact that WCS KR is completely offline and would require them to live in a different country for a long period of time to take part. Korea and China are basically the same place, right?

On May 07 2013 02:59 Dracid wrote:


1. You have to physically be in Korea to compete in WCS Korea. How many players do you think WCS AM would have had if everybody who wanted to compete had to fly to NYC just for an attempt to qualify?

2. Even with all the Koreans competing in WCS EU/AM, WCS Korea is still 10x harder than any other region.

On May 07 2013 03:16 SCST wrote:


Korea and China are extremely close geographically. It's the equivalent of saying that "Canadian's living in Vancouver can't compete at a Seattle tournament (United States) because it's just too difficult for them due to offline requirements, so they must compete in a Korean tournament which is partially online". Again you don't understand how close in proximity the two countries are. It is possible to take a ferry boat from Beijing to mainland South Korea. Flights are also cheap. Relative to the cost of coming to the America's it is extremely cheap .

Cost of flight to the America's from mainland china is roughly $1,400 - $1,800 for 2 one-way tickets if you're lucky. This doesn't include the incredible hassle of getting a U.S. visa ($200) which may be denied for any reason under the sun. Yes, it is easier to compete in the offline Korean WCS than to come to the United States once/if they are in premier league.

On May 07 2013 03:31 grs wrote:

Do you not get it, or do you want to spread false information? There is no way for anyone into GSL this season; even if the CN players would travel to KR, the participants were already set for code S.

On May 07 2013 03:25 SCST wrote:



1. Based on interviews with Blizzard officials, all the WCS events we're intended to be offline originally, and will be in the future.

2. I'm in agreement with you here . . . this is why the Chinese payers are playing in the WCS, not because they are "forced". It's because there is less competition and they have a better shot at prize money meant for the America's Region.

On May 07 2013 03:16 SCST wrote:


Korea and China are extremely close geographically. It's the equivalent of saying that "Canadian's living in Vancouver can't compete at a Seattle tournament (United States) because it's just too difficult for them due to offline requirements, so they must compete in a Korean tournament which is partially online". Again you don't understand how close in proximity the two countries are. It is possible to take a ferry boat from Beijing to mainland South Korea. Flights are also cheap. Relative to the cost of coming to the America's it is extremely cheap .

Cost of flight to the America's from mainland china is roughly $1,400 - $1,800 for 2 one-way tickets if you're lucky. This doesn't include the incredible hassle of getting a U.S. visa ($200) which may be denied for any reason under the sun. Yes, it is easier to compete in the offline Korean WCS than to come to the United States once/if they are in premier league.

Once again, Chinese are not being pigeonholed into playing America WCS. They are simply taking advantage of a loophole in the WCS system that was originally intended to be a region-lock but failed. I'm not criticizing Chinese players for doing this, but I am criticizing forum-posters for pretending like they were "forced" into this choice.

On May 07 2013 03:41 SCST wrote:
Obviously facts are just not getting through here. There are estimated to be 1 million Chinese immigrants in South Korea. It is not difficult for Chinese players to travel and or live in Seoul to play SC2 in GSL. They choose not to do this because they don't feel confident that they will be able to win prize money with the intense competition. They are choosing to play in the America WCS because the chances of winning prize money (due to a region-lock loophole allowing partial online play) is much higher.

No, the Chinese players were not "locked out" of KR Code S as is being suggested above, they simply didn't bother to compete in GSL (or if they did, they failed to qualify for Code S). Incredible to see how many people are saying/implying that the Chinese players were "forced" to play in WCS America.


Somehow I doubt these same people are going to protest or make excuses for Canadians or South Americans who will be required to travel for offline play when/if WCS follows through with their original intentions to create a true region-lock by requiring everything to be offline.

On May 07 2013 03:16 SCST wrote:


Korea and China are extremely close geographically. It's the equivalent of saying that "Canadian's living in Vancouver can't compete at a Seattle tournament (United States) because it's just too difficult for them due to offline requirements, so they must compete in a Korean tournament which is partially online". Again you don't understand how close in proximity the two countries are. It is possible to take a ferry boat from Beijing to mainland South Korea. Flights are also cheap. Relative to the cost of coming to the America's it is extremely cheap .

Cost of flight to the America's from mainland china is roughly $1,400 - $1,800 for 2 one-way tickets if you're lucky. This doesn't include the incredible hassle of getting a U.S. visa ($200) which may be denied for any reason under the sun. Yes, it is easier to compete in the offline Korean WCS than to come to the United States once/if they are in premier league.

Once again, Chinese are not being pigeonholed into playing America WCS. They are simply taking advantage of a loophole in the WCS system that was originally intended to be a region-lock but failed. I'm not criticizing Chinese players for doing this, but I am criticizing forum-posters for pretending like they were "forced" into this choice.

On May 07 2013 03:46 grs wrote:

The formating of you post is very helpful in getting your point accros; sadly, you don't have one. There is no reasonably practical way to compete in Code S for them. Blizzard deceided not to region lock the tournament, so most of them picked the best solution, which in AM. Whether you like Blizzard's deceision or not, there is no reason to blame it on the Chinese players. They have been treated badly enough by MLG (probably not intentionally but still) and there is zero reason to blame them for qualifying under the conditions they had.

On May 07 2013 03:52 SCST wrote:


1.Blizzard attempted to do the best they could to region-lock the tournament, according to blizzard officials. This result was not their original intention.

2. Competing locally in GSL is not unreasonable for Chinese players, as it is not as difficult as you are implying to live/travel to Seoul from China . Also, Chinese have competed in the GSL before.

3. I'm not blaming the Chinese at all. At what point have I slandered or attacked the Chinese? I'm calling out people like you for making excuses / sob stories about how the Chinese could only compete in WCS AM.

Hope you enjoy the formatting.

On May 07 2013 04:19 Dracid wrote:


A number of Americans and Europeans have also competed in the GSL before as well, what's your point?

You are blaming the Chinese, because you're saying that they should choose WCS KR over AM, when there's no good reason for them to do so. They choose to compete in AM because China -> EU has crippling lag, and because China -> KR requires you to live in Korea for an extended amount of time assuming you make it past the qualifiers just to get into code A.

There is nothing reasonable about expecting somebody to pay travel and lodging expenses for an attempt to compete in a competition for a code A slot that's also 10x harder than one you could attempt from the comforts of your home for a code S slot. Be mad at Blizzard if you like for how they organized things, but expecting the Chinese to compete in WCS KR because "it's basically WCS Asia" is nothing short of ridiculous.

On May 07 2013 04:33 SCST wrote:
In addition, it appears that Blizzard is going to attempt to implement an offline-requirement similar to GSL for next season. If this is the case, what will the Chinese do then? Just give up? Somehow I think we'll be seeing a Chinese team-house in Seoul.

On May 07 2013 04:43 pmp10 wrote:

Dose anyone really think this is realistic by now?
EU and AM have enough of semi-pros that study and can't be locked down to a single place for months at a time.
And that's even assuming that Blizzard would be willing to foot much greater bill for player living expenses.
By now WCS must maintain current format for at least this year as changing rules season to season would be massively unfair to players that already participate.

On May 07 2013 04:33 SCST wrote:


Exactly. A number of American's, Chinese and Europeans have competed in the GSL and continue to compete, living in team-houses. They know that there is stiff competition, and that their chances are not good to get into Code S. But they still try and continue to improve their skills.

It's pathetic that you attempt to discredit my post/thoughts as anti-Chinese rhetoric rather than just countering point-for-point. This is a cheap debate tactic that shows that you're either emotionally attached to this issue or that you are standing on weak ground. I have not blamed the Chinese in the slightest for their choice of going for the easier prize money, just as I have not blamed the Koreans, or even Foreigners at times, for doing the exact same thing. I have never said that they "should" compete in WCS KR given the current situation.

The entire point of my posting is to counter the constant whining/pity campaign that people are propogating on here regarding the Chinese players. It is a choice for them to play in WCS America. They were not forced into it. There is no sob-story here. Chinese players could go to Team-houses in Seoul, they could create their own team-house (there are certainly enough CN players), and they could travel to GSL as it is not far. They are choosing, like many Koreans, to play in WCS America for the easier prize money. That is my point.

In addition, it appears that Blizzard is going to attempt to implement an offline-requirement similar to GSL for next season. If this is the case, what will the Chinese do then? Just give up? Somehow I think we'll be seeing a Chinese team-house in Seoul.

On May 07 2013 03:16 SCST wrote:


Korea and China are extremely close geographically. It's the equivalent of saying that "Canadian's living in Vancouver can't compete at a Seattle tournament (United States) because it's just too difficult for them due to offline requirements, so they must compete in a Korean tournament which is partially online". Again you don't understand how close in proximity the two countries are. It is possible to take a ferry boat from Beijing to mainland South Korea. Flights are also cheap. Relative to the cost of coming to the America's it is extremely cheap .

Cost of flight to the America's from mainland china is roughly $1,400 - $1,800 for 2 one-way tickets if you're lucky. This doesn't include the incredible hassle of getting a U.S. visa ($200) which may be denied for any reason under the sun. Yes, it is easier to compete in the offline Korean WCS than to come to the United States once/if they are in premier league.

Once again, Chinese are not being pigeonholed into playing America WCS. They are simply taking advantage of a loophole in the WCS system that was originally intended to be a region-lock but failed. I'm not criticizing Chinese players for doing this, but I am criticizing forum-posters for pretending like they were "forced" into this choice.

On May 07 2013 05:05 Dracid wrote:


Are you, or are you not, implying that the Chinese should compete in WCS KR? That's the crux of it here. No, there's nothing "stopping" the Chinese from competing in Korea, just like there's nothing "stopping" any American or European pro-gamer from competing there (outside of common sense).

Because when you equate the Chinese to the Koreans who compete in WCS AM, I get the impression that you think they should compete in WCS KR. The problem with this though, is that they're not Koreans, and expecting them to move to Korea to compete in code A is even more ridiculous than expecting west coast players to move to the east coast in order to participate in WCS AM.

So either you're implying that it's reasonable to expect the Chinese to compete in WCS KR, which I think counts as xenophobic rhetoric, or you're just pointing out that the Chinese, like everybody else in the world, has the option to compete in WCS KR, which is basically saying nothing.

On May 07 2013 05:14 Acrofales wrote:


I really really REALLY hope you're a troll.

1. Beijing or Shanghai (the two largest cities that can arguably be said to be "near" to Seoul are still ~1000 km away. So actually it's asking someone from Vancouver to fly to anywhere ranging from San Francisco (~1000 km away) to Miami (~ the distance for people in southern China) for a tournament.

2. The "tremendous hassle for a US visa" is about the same as the "tremendous hassle for a SK visa". It's not as if SK hands visas out to chinese for christmas.

3. You have to move to SK just to compete in the Code A qualifiers. WCS AM and EU are all-online until Premier league Ro8, which is a weekend, meaning you can live at home and fly out to the states for a weekend, IF you are extremely successful. SK you basically have to move there if you want a chance at even competing. You live in your own little fantasy lalaland if you think moving to a different country is in any way easier (let alone cheaper) than traveling to the US for a week(end).

On May 07 2013 05:29 Plansix wrote:


My real question is, after the Chinese player takes the reported "ferry" from China to Korea, how does he get to Seoul. Does he walk like a pilgrim, with his mouse, keyboard and B.Net authenticator on his back, for the remained of his 1000 K trip? Does he show up to the GOM studio like some vagabond, reciting builds under his breath and playing SC2 in his mind?

The more I think about it, the more like the concept of this fictional Chinese SC2 player traveling to Seoul by foot.

On May 07 2013 05:23 SCST wrote:


I don't know how I can possibly elaborate any further on my point than I already have in the previous post(s). However, I will rehash since you seem open to the idea that you misunderstood.

I am not "implying" anything. I am not stating that anyone "should do" anything. I am very straight-forward with my thoughts. I am criticizing the pity campaign that currently surrounds the Chinese players (most likely propagated by fans). I'm addressing the ridiculous falsehood that Chinese players "have no choice but to compete in WCS America".

In my posts on the subject I've made the following assertions:

-It is not true that Chinese players have no choice but to compete in WCS America.

-It is not unreasonable for Chinese players to travel/live in Seoul in team-houses and compete in GSL.

-It is easier and more lucrative for Chinese players to achieve results and prize winnings by competing in foreign tournaments, including WCS America. This is why the Chinese are competing in WCS America, not because they were "given no alternative".

-It is not true that Chinese players were locked out of playing in the GSL.


Also, again you are on very weak/pathetic ground accusing me of racism for "daring" to suggest that it is not unreasonable for CN players to live in team-house in Seoul and play in GSL, their literal next door neighbor.

On May 07 2013 05:33 SCST wrote:


Seems clear that this was taken out of context. It is, relative to other areas of the world like the Americas, very reasonable to travel from China to SK and live in a team-house for several months to compete in GSL. Unless you think as one poster mentioned, $300 plane ticket vs ~$1,600 is similar in cost. Or as an even cheaper option, taking the ferry and train and staying for a while to compete.

On May 07 2013 05:39 Dracid wrote:


So you don't have a real point do you? Chinese don't "have" to compete WCS AM, they don't "have" to compete in WCS at all. This all goes without saying, who would argue otherwise? What people have been saying is that in the absence of an WCS China/Asia event, then by any reasonable metric WCS AM would be their region, same as for SEA, hence why MLG should be more accommodating.

That you insist that it is reasonable to expect Chinese players to attempt WCS KR instead of WCS AM either betrays your intentions or your ignorance. Do you have any idea how much the average Chinese person makes? It's about as financially viable for the average American pro-gamer to attempt their luck in Korea as it is for the average Chinese player. Do you really think it's reasonable to expect an American pro-gamer to fly to Korea as well? It's great if they're willing to make the attempt, but for most people it's simply not a good decision.

On May 07 2013 05:33 SCST wrote:


Seems clear that this was taken out of context. It is, relative to other areas of the world like the Americas, very reasonable to travel from China to SK and live in a team-house for several months to compete in GSL. Unless you think as one poster mentioned, $300 plane ticket vs ~$1,600 is similar in cost. Or as an even cheaper option, taking the ferry and train and staying for a while to compete.

On May 07 2013 05:33 SCST wrote:


Seems clear that this was taken out of context. It is, relative to other areas of the world like the Americas, very reasonable to travel from China to SK and live in a team-house for several months to compete in GSL. Unless you think as one poster mentioned, $300 plane ticket vs ~$1,600 is similar in cost. Or as an even cheaper option, taking the ferry and train and staying for a while to compete.

On May 07 2013 05:43 Waxangel wrote:
you're fucking insane if you think having to compete in Korea in person is not a huuuuuuuuuuuge barrier against chinese participation

fuck, if MLG said you had to play WCS America live in NYC from the qualifiers on up, all USA players west of Pennsylvania would be screaming bloody murder, not to mention everyone else in the fucking hemisphere.

On May 07 2013 05:50 Plansix wrote:


Traveling 1000K is pretty far, I don't really care how you get there.

..... So I don’t’ really agree with your concept that it is easier for a Chinese player to compete in Korea than in WSC NA.

On May 07 2013 05:50 SCST wrote:


I agree it's a big barrier. However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea?

People are stating that it is "impossible" or "so difficult to be nearly impossible" for CN players to play in any WCS other than America. This is obviously not true.

Again, if I were a CN player I also would choose to better/more lucrative opportunity. No one is blaming the Chinese.

On May 07 2013 05:49 Dracid wrote:


Except for that $1600 plane ticket you're already in the Ro16 which is a guaranteed $2000 plus a good chance to make much more, whereas that $300 plane ticket guarantees that if you win you get to be in code A and have to pay for living expenses in a foreign country for several weeks.

The ferry isn't a viable option either. It costs over $100 USD for a one-way 26 hour trip which neither starts in Beijing nor ends in Seoul.

On May 07 2013 05:57 SCST wrote:


I agree that it's a much better financial opportunity to play in WCS America rather than Korea, I have never stated otherwise. I have stated however that is not "unreasonable" to play on KR, and that it is a conscious choice to play in WCS America vs KR and not forced. And people take the ferry all the time from Beijing to Seoul, I've done it myself. It not as difficult as you make it sound, though it is a long trip. I also am a world traveler.

On May 07 2013 05:57 SCST wrote:


I agree that it's a much better financial opportunity to play in WCS America rather than Korea, I have never stated otherwise. I have stated however that is not "unreasonable" to play on KR, and that it is a conscious choice to play in WCS America vs KR and not forced. And people take the ferry all the time from Beijing to Seoul, I've done it myself. It not as difficult as you make it sound, though it is a long trip. I also am a world traveler.

On May 07 2013 05:57 SCST wrote:


I agree that it's a much better financial opportunity to play in WCS America rather than Korea, I have never stated otherwise. I have stated however that is not "unreasonable" to play on KR, and that it is a conscious choice to play in WCS America vs KR and not forced. And people take the ferry all the time from Beijing to Seoul, I've done it myself. It not as difficult as you make it sound, though it is a long trip. I also am a world traveler.

On May 07 2013 05:55 Plansix wrote:


All right, this argument has become fluid and amorphous, ever shifting until it can never be proven wrong or fail under the weight of facts and logic. Its sole purpose is to argue for the sake of doing so, while never yielding to the weight its opponents heap on it. I suggest we all move along and leave the argument blob to itself.

On May 07 2013 06:06 Dracid wrote:


So explain how it's reasonable to expect somebody to live in a foreign country for an extended amount of time in order to compete for a tournament.

Also, there is no ferry from Beijing to Seoul. Beijing isn't even on the coast. You've taken a ferry that doesn't even exist, I don't think it's worth responding to you anymore.

On May 07 2013 06:07 SCST wrote:


No, it boils down to a simple argument.

1. Is it reasonable for CN players to play in WCS KR vs WCS America?

2. If it is reasonable for CN players to play in KR WCS, why are people whining about the Chinese having lag, etc and overall trying to make them out as victims when they have a choice as to which WCS to play in.

On May 07 2013 06:11 Plansix wrote:


Must resist urge to make Photoshop movie poster of mythical ferry boat from Beijing to Seoul, carrying world travelers and Chinese SC2 players off to adventure in the land of Korea. A feel good story for the summer, brought you by Dreamworks.

On May 07 2013 06:07 SCST wrote:


No, it boils down to a simple argument.

1. Is it reasonable for CN players to play in WCS KR vs WCS America?

2. If it is reasonable for CN players to play in KR WCS, why are people whining about the Chinese having lag, etc and overall trying to make them out as victims when they have a choice as to which WCS to play in.

On May 07 2013 06:15 Acrofales wrote:

No.

Irrelevant due to 1.

End of discussion.

On May 07 2013 06:03 Plansix wrote:

Its ok folks, he is a world traveler and understands how this works. A 26 hour trip by boat is totally reasonable and something we all can do to win $300 bucks. I mean, to break even, you need to walk across the land of Korea, because bus fare is going to break the bank. But totally reasonable to compete in code A. The world traveler has spoken.

On May 07 2013 06:16 SCST wrote:



Ferry information Beijing - Seoul (yes there is a short train ride from the ports)

Air-conditioned high-speed trains link Beijing and Tianjin frequently, taking just 30 minutes, see details here. However, the port is actually at Tanggu, some 50 km east of Tianjin itself, so it's better to take a direct train from Beijing South to Tanggu, journey time 55 minutes, with trains every hour or two. Beijing to Tanggu costs 92 RMB soft seat, 78 RMB hard seat. You can check train times at www.chinatravelguide.com. Bus 102 runs from Tanggu station to the ferry terminal, journey time 50 minutes.

Ferries run by Jinchon Ferry sail from Tanggu International Ferry Terminal (50 km east of Tianjin) to Incheon twice a week, taking 25 hours. Departure from Tanggu is at 11:00 on Thursdays & Sundays, arriving Incheon at 14:00 next day. In the other direction, the ferry sails from Incheon at 13:00 on Tuesdays arriving Tanggu 14:00 Wednesdays and at 19:00 on Fridays arriving Tanggu 20:00 Saturdays. For sailing dates and times, see http://byferryfrom2japan.com/en/korea-china or http://visitkorea.or.kr/ena/GK/GK_EN_2_3_2.jsp. The ferry operator's own site (www.jinchon.cn) is only in Chinese or Korean. The ferry fare in economy class is 888 RMB + 60 RMB tax. You should arrive at the ferry terminal 2-3 hours before sailing time.

Trains link Incheon and Seoul frequently, 39 km, journey time 58 minutes.

On May 07 2013 06:21 Plansix wrote:


It is really hard to tell if you are the world traveler to claim to be, or someone who is utilizing the power of google and just layering on more detailed information as the discussion goes on.

Either way, the discussion is about semantics. People say Chinese are forced to compete in the WSC US because they have so few options. You say it is the best decision for them, but they are not forced because they could live in Korea, even though you freely admit it is not the best decision for them. Everyone agrees on the points, but disagrees on the verbiage.

On May 07 2013 06:16 SCST wrote:



Ferry information Beijing - Seoul (yes there is a short train ride from the ports)

Air-conditioned high-speed trains link Beijing and Tianjin frequently, taking just 30 minutes, see details here. However, the port is actually at Tanggu, some 50 km east of Tianjin itself, so it's better to take a direct train from Beijing South to Tanggu, journey time 55 minutes, with trains every hour or two. Beijing to Tanggu costs 92 RMB soft seat, 78 RMB hard seat. You can check train times at www.chinatravelguide.com. Bus 102 runs from Tanggu station to the ferry terminal, journey time 50 minutes.

Ferries run by Jinchon Ferry sail from Tanggu International Ferry Terminal (50 km east of Tianjin) to Incheon twice a week, taking 25 hours. Departure from Tanggu is at 11:00 on Thursdays & Sundays, arriving Incheon at 14:00 next day. In the other direction, the ferry sails from Incheon at 13:00 on Tuesdays arriving Tanggu 14:00 Wednesdays and at 19:00 on Fridays arriving Tanggu 20:00 Saturdays. For sailing dates and times, see http://byferryfrom2japan.com/en/korea-china or http://visitkorea.or.kr/ena/GK/GK_EN_2_3_2.jsp. The ferry operator's own site (www.jinchon.cn) is only in Chinese or Korean. The ferry fare in economy class is 888 RMB + 60 RMB tax. You should arrive at the ferry terminal 2-3 hours before sailing time.

Trains link Incheon and Seoul frequently, 39 km, journey time 58 minutes.

On May 07 2013 06:18 SCST wrote:


I disagree with you, hence the argument. I think it's definitely worse, but not unreasonable for CN players to play in a team-house in the GSL. Either way, I've enjoyed discussing it.

On May 07 2013 06:18 SCST wrote:


I disagree with you, hence the argument. I think it's definitely worse, but not unreasonable for CN players to play in a team-house in the GSL. Either way, I've enjoyed discussing it.

On May 07 2013 06:25 SCST wrote:


No idea why you are attacking/attempting to discredit me personally rather than just addressing the points in a discussion . . .

Yes of course I don't have the ferry information memorized, I've only taken it once. I'ts much easier to google this well-known ferry and just copy/paste? I am a U.S. citizen living in Mexico at the moment. I've done quite a bit of travel, but that has almost nothing to do with the discussion . . .

I don't think everyone agrees with these points, probably most people arguing here are in agreement, but I've read countless statements since the beginning of WCS regarding the Chinese being forced (yes, they mean forced not *best opportunity*) into this situation and "woe" to them for having such a horrible/difficult time.

On May 07 2013 05:50 SCST wrote:


I agree it's a big barrier. However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea?

People are stating that it is "impossible" or "so difficult to be nearly impossible" for CN players to play in any WCS other than America. This is obviously not true.

Again, if I were a CN player I also would choose to better/more lucrative opportunity. No one is blaming the Chinese.

On May 07 2013 03:41 SCST wrote:
Obviously facts are just not getting through here. There are estimated to be 1 million Chinese immigrants in South Korea. It is not difficult for Chinese players to travel and or live in Seoul to play SC2 in GSL. They choose not to do this because they don't feel confident that they will be able to win prize money with the intense competition. They are choosing to play in the America WCS because the chances of winning prize money (due to a region-lock loophole allowing partial online play) is much higher.

No, the Chinese players were not "locked out" of KR Code S as is being suggested above, they simply didn't bother to compete in GSL (or if they did, they failed to qualify for Code S). Incredible to see how many people are saying/implying that the Chinese players were "forced" to play in WCS America.


Somehow I doubt these same people are going to protest or make excuses for Canadians or South Americans who will be required to travel for offline play when/if WCS follows through with their original intentions to create a true region-lock by requiring everything to be offline.

On May 07 2013 06:36 mordk wrote:

You need to understand what people are saying here. Of course it's possible for CN players to go to KR, live there, and try their luck in the GSL, but given that it is extremely costly in comparison to playing in AM, you might as well use the term "forced" to play in AM. Change it for "the offer in AM is ridiculously superior to the one in KR, making the latter completely out of the question", it's the same thing.

I mean, sure, I can avoid the nasty subway and buses in my city by sleeping 3 hours at night, waking up at 2 AM and walking to my hospital work in the middle of the night, I'd probably make it on time, but that's pretty unreasonable right? Hence, in order to function correctly, I'm "forced" to use the nasty public transport system, even if in truly objective terms, I actually COULD go walking.

On May 07 2013 06:46 JustPassingBy wrote:


Wait... now you agree that it is a big barrier? I'm pretty sure you said that it is "not difficult" initially... let's see... ah yes, here (the bolded part was made by you btw, not me):

On May 07 2013 06:39 Plansix wrote:


... If you want to make the point that the Chinese players may not be as bad off as people are making it out to be, you should approach the discussion from a different angle.

On May 07 2013 06:47 SCST wrote:


That's a good point, I don't mean to imply that CN players would travel this way every day or weekend, I just meant to arrive at a team-house and stay for some weeks/months doesn't seem unreasonable to me considering the cheaper possibilities of travel.

On May 07 2013 06:55 Dracid wrote:

What cheaper possibilities of travel? $300 a trip isn't all that "cheap" for an American, much less a Chinese player.

Also, you're shifting goalposts. When the hell did this become about teamhouses?

On May 07 2013 06:51 SCST wrote:


Semantics, look at the context of the post and stop trying to knit-pick to score points here. I agreed with Waxangel's point because it was polite and civilized to do so, and followed it immediately with: "However, is it truly unreasonable to have a CN team-house in South Korea? Or for CN players to live in team-houses in South Korea?"

P.S. I still don't think it is that difficult for CN players to join a team-house in Korea. It wouldn't seem to be so much more difficult than other foreigners and even Koreans who move from outside of their locality to participate in the GSL. Sure it's a commitment, but it's no less than what other pro's have and will go through to compete.

Also, the dirty little secret of this entire discussion is that we all know that even if participating in the GSL were made completely free to the Chinese, they would still compete in the WCS America. Lol.

On May 07 2013 07:16 Dracid wrote:


This is where I accuse you of making xenophobic comments. You're specifically singling out the Chinese for not "participating in WCS KR because it's too hard" when there are ZERO foreigners competing in WCS KR. Major, Scarlett, and others are actually in Korea, it literally is completely free to them to compete in WCS KR. But no, it's the Chinese who are "avoiding" the competition.

On May 07 2013 07:19 Azarkon wrote:
He's saying that Chinese players have been the subject of a giant sob story over them being forced to play with lag in WCS NA, which is great for their publicity but has the same false premise that exists for Korean players who chose to play in WCS NA. In both cases, the decision was made because it benefited these players to do so, not because a nefarious force ie Blizzard / MLG / GSL was out to get them.

On May 07 2013 07:23 SCST wrote:


Nah, I think you accuse me of xenophobia because you're too invested in this debate and are trying to slander someone you're debating against. It's pretty common when someone gets too heated in a discussion. The same goes for trying to discredit people on a personal level rather than countering points and keeping to the topic(s) at hand.

It's obvious that I'm not racist, as I have consistently stated that I would do the same as CN/KR players in their position. Also, foreigners have competed in KR since the beginning of GSL. They don't always make it into Code S, but they do compete and try. And the Chinese also compete in KR at times. I remember when Loner competed quite a bit, I was/am a big fan of his.

No need to grasp at straws, if you want to talk/debate and state that I'm wrong it's fine. What you're trying to do here, however, is pretty sad.