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Honestly, the spore change does nothing. I am already hesitant to fly my mutas into my opponents base to begin with. They took a "no-fly" zone and made it even more "no-fly" doesn't change the way I (or most people) play ZvZ. You already need lings to deal with spores, this changes nothing.
Burrow change is nice, I'm glad they're doing it with cost instead of reducing research time or something. That being said, I can see burrow denial of Gateway expands in ZvP and that is interesting, probably broken... Personally, I can't justify the 25 minerals+ drone for the extractor and the 3 drones mining gas for a minute to get gas that early just for burrow, Zerg economy is too dependent on minerals in the early game.
Oracles are already annoyingly fast. I don't know if .25 speed really has any effect, but whatever, don't care either way.
All-in-all, these notes are disappointing in the sense that Blizzard seems to be missing the mark as badly as usual where it counts (mutas) and off in lala land where it doesn't (everything else).
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the spore buff seems like a band aid. I don't play much zerg, but I can't imagine it will do much to end muta wars. You still have to engate the muta army sooner or later, and there still isn't another unit that can deal with them. How about canging the corruptor instead - probably the most boring unit in the game anyway... hard to go wrong with changing it.
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On May 03 2013 23:13 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:07 Big J wrote:On May 03 2013 22:55 Butterednuts wrote:
omg, i can't wait to research burrow first and send a zergling to burrow under where they would wall off. Maybe if I do it early enough I can do it right where they would expand. Finally I might be able to beat terran again with which build order against which build order? I mean, if you do it of hatch first, a Terran can just put down his expo at the natural from a 1rax, 1rax reaper or CC first opening long before burrow is done. If you do it of a 1base build, you are going 1base without queen. That's only 4units per minute, with the research taking 100seconds... I think in the best case you can come up with some 12-14pool opening get a queen, get the burrow behind it and maybe pull it of against a overly frightened Terran and even that sounds ridiculous to me right now (100seconds research, gas and a delayed natural just to force a scan). 1 hatch burrow. To counter 14CC. Terran can't place his CC at his expand because it's ling blocked. He rages and quits. This is how new meta is born.
Yeah man, Idra's really going to hate this one!... oh wait, he plays zerg now :D
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On May 03 2013 08:36 hereticfurby wrote:
Fuck that, Oracle is a bullshit unit, requires infinite scouting time to see if proxied or not, and now it's not even necessary to proxy due to how fast they get from point A-B. Oracles hit before medivacs/Vikings are out and forces a Terran to sacrifice way too much tech options in order to have a chance at defending, and even then it's never enough because you get 3-4gate Stargated and you're absolutely fucked. It's ridiculously hard to be able to scout all that at any time and properly defend at 8 minutes. Not to mention that a Terran can't really do anything until at least 10 minutes because of the Photon overcharge, almost entirely nullifying every early Terran all-in. Zerg has no AA answer unless they forcibly use Spore Crawlers, which sacrifices their economy and tech ridiculously. All-in-all, the Oracle ALREADY causes your opponent to sacrifice WAY too much infrastructure just for POSSIBLE defense, and it is not even guaranteed defense.
Plus if you take really ANY damage from an oracle, since your tech was already heavily delayed, you're playing catch up with a Protoss the entire game, which is bad considering how the 12-14 minute mark is the biggest turning point in a TvP. So you'd be screwed once that time hit and it would be so one sided.
Sounds like my criticism of the Banshee and 1-1-1 in WOL... either way, the Oracle isn't exactly dominating TvP or ZvP in anyway at the moment so buffing it is a good thing.
Sadly, it won't do much because the Oracle is a gimmick. Protoss really needed a powerful mineral only harass unit, like the Speedling or Hellion. What we got was another gas intensive (meaning we can't both build Oracles and tech) coin flip, like the Dark Templar. Either your opponent is prepared or they aren't and since you invested so much gas into the build, if you don't do good damage, you're dead.
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On May 03 2013 23:32 imJealous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:13 DidYuhim wrote:On May 03 2013 23:07 Big J wrote:On May 03 2013 22:55 Butterednuts wrote:
omg, i can't wait to research burrow first and send a zergling to burrow under where they would wall off. Maybe if I do it early enough I can do it right where they would expand. Finally I might be able to beat terran again with which build order against which build order? I mean, if you do it of hatch first, a Terran can just put down his expo at the natural from a 1rax, 1rax reaper or CC first opening long before burrow is done. If you do it of a 1base build, you are going 1base without queen. That's only 4units per minute, with the research taking 100seconds... I think in the best case you can come up with some 12-14pool opening get a queen, get the burrow behind it and maybe pull it of against a overly frightened Terran and even that sounds ridiculous to me right now (100seconds research, gas and a delayed natural just to force a scan). 1 hatch burrow. To counter 14CC. Terran can't place his CC at his expand because it's ling blocked. He rages and quits. This is how new meta is born. Yeah man, Idra's really going to hate this one!... oh wait, he plays zerg now :D
Personally, I see it being most useful vs Zerg.
Rushing 10 Lings into your opponents base only to burrow on the top-side of the ramp is going to be really annoying to deal with if you're even slightly behind. Now you have to invest another 125 minerals into a spore crawler while your opponent is dumping that money into ever more drones/lings.
I already put gas off as late as possible in both ZvP and ZvT, and I won't be changing that over the ability to burrow sooner...
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On May 03 2013 08:13 semmeL wrote:
Why doesnt they want muta vs muta, was fun to watch in sc1 also. Sure it's hard for the players but, where is the problem with rewarding the better micro/macroing player that has better multitasking.
Oracle speedbuff seems too strong and will buff the allin also, cause u can micro it better.
Hope the changes wont go live like that after testing.
Mutalisk vs mutalisk could be microed in BW. Also no equivalent to scourge.
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I'd love to try and see if burrow can actually deny a gateway expand and see how the oracle does in pvt now, but NOBODY IS PLAYING THE TEST MAP!!!
I asked in general and TL chat, but people are like: those are only minor changes, what do you want to test? waste of time... Yet there are a hundred thousand responses in this thread!
WTF guys!
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I think the problem with Oracle is the gas cost. It's too much for the Protoss to transition into a standard game out of it.. Buffing it might only increase the "i must make massive damage or i'm dead" feeling I already have when building Oracles.
Imo, they should cost less gas and be more useful during the whole early/mid game : slower dps (then faster movement maybe, why not), but still able to pick bio units here and there and thus reward player using them intensively while macroing.
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On May 03 2013 23:44 StaraCroft wrote:
I'd love to try and see if burrow can actually deny a gateway expand and see how the oracle does in pvt now, but NOBODY IS PLAYING THE TEST MAP!!!
I asked in general and TL chat, but people are like: those are only minor changes, what do you want to test? waste of time... Yet there are a hundred thousand responses in this thread!
WTF guys!
Sounds like people want to rush and flame stuff without even trying it first, typical.
Not to mention like 50% of this thread is probably composed of the opinions of sub-masters players (Including myself, but I'm not rushing to make any judgement on these changes.)
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On May 03 2013 23:46 eXdeath wrote:
I think the problem with Oracle is the gas cost. It's too much for the Protoss to transition into a standard game out of it.. Buffing it might only increase the "i must make massive damage or i'm dead" feeling I already have when building Oracles.
Imo, they should cost less gas and be more useful during the whole early/mid game : slower dps (then faster movement maybe, why not), but still able to pick bio units here and there and thus reward player using them intensively while macroing.
You can pretty much do guaranteed damage to reaper openings. Less so if they pull out of gas, but I think you can still make something happen, and if you scout them going fast tech you can invest in phoenix and then transition into phoenix/colossos.
Yah, it's a whole lot of gas. Too much to make stargate a standard opening, but not a super coinflippy one either.
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On May 03 2013 23:32 imJealous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:13 DidYuhim wrote:On May 03 2013 23:07 Big J wrote:On May 03 2013 22:55 Butterednuts wrote:
omg, i can't wait to research burrow first and send a zergling to burrow under where they would wall off. Maybe if I do it early enough I can do it right where they would expand. Finally I might be able to beat terran again with which build order against which build order? I mean, if you do it of hatch first, a Terran can just put down his expo at the natural from a 1rax, 1rax reaper or CC first opening long before burrow is done. If you do it of a 1base build, you are going 1base without queen. That's only 4units per minute, with the research taking 100seconds... I think in the best case you can come up with some 12-14pool opening get a queen, get the burrow behind it and maybe pull it of against a overly frightened Terran and even that sounds ridiculous to me right now (100seconds research, gas and a delayed natural just to force a scan). 1 hatch burrow. To counter 14CC. Terran can't place his CC at his expand because it's ling blocked. He rages and quits. This is how new meta is born. Yeah man, Idra's really going to hate this one!... oh wait, he plays zerg now :D
In the future, even his Zerg opponents will have to apologize for playing that race.
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On May 03 2013 23:30 Jermstuddog wrote:
Honestly, the spore change does nothing. I am already hesitant to fly my mutas into my opponents base to begin with. They took a "no-fly" zone and made it even more "no-fly" doesn't change the way I (or most people) play ZvZ. You already need lings to deal with spores, this changes nothing.
Well, but what if I can go 2base roach creep push to the third and then start to defend my 2entrances of off pure roach/spore? Like, doesn't that sound quite strong? All those ling/bling attacks can be dealt with roach and the area around your 2-3 bases just gets a nogo zone for a player who rushes mutas if spores are strong enough. And from there on you stabilize on 3bases with upgrades and infestors and a stronger engagement army. I actually think that if they get the balancing rigth, this actually could make for very interesting ling/bling/muta mapcontrol vs roach/hydra/infestor play, which then transition into ultras and vipers/swarm hosts respecitvely.
I mean, once you hit a certain amount of infestors/hydras you will still be able to shut down mass muta in straight battles. Same for banelings/zerglings with roach/infestor. So I believe all that is needed is the ability to transition into those crucial 3bases fast enough and that is mostly an issue of costefficiency when your opponent comes for your third.
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Cant we make the hydra vs air + x amount biological?
i never see hydra's vs muta what looks like a logic counter.
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Guys, if burrow becomes a huge problem, you know they'll just extend its research time and all will be well. Right?
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On May 03 2013 23:59 matthy wrote:
Cant we make the hydra vs air + x amount biological?
i never see hydra's vs muta what looks like a logic counter.
I like that a lot more than the spore change, at least if it's not a silly amount that would make muta unviable.
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Typical sky is falling bull****, all from Terrans. Listen guys, it will be okay. You can still put reaper aggression to your opponents before they have zerglings, you can still drop the **** out of everyone, you still have your very strong cloaked apm converter that exchanges your 1 apm for ever 5-6 from your opponent. It will be okay. You will survive.
If burrow really becomes too much an issue, they'll probably elongate its research time.
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On May 03 2013 23:03 freewareplayer wrote:
Muta Wars ZvZ need adjustement for sure, but 45 dmg spore is stupid.
Thats way too much dmg, you cant ever enter a base which has just 1 spore, unless you already have a massive muta count and outplayed him to crap, but how you will do that without harassing him is another question.
Muta will be map control tool only. Definetly a stupid change.
I agree that it is a stupid change (just like the last time they buffed it). To answer the bold--exactly how they do it now. They deny your 3rd and mine more gas because you probably wont have a spore there. Why they won't look at zerg mobile AA is just completely beyond me... even a hydra AA-only vs bio buff would have made more sense.
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The overall balance for Heart of the Swarm is in a good place right now
What Hots is blizzard playing?
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they should just take out the regents on mutas and make fungals instant again, that'll solve everything.
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On May 04 2013 00:29 mafaba wrote:What Hots is blizzard playing?
Muta wars is silly, some units are underused, but I agree with them. Balance is in a very good place.
Any race can win vs any other race, better player wins way more often than not.
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EPT
