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On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea?
The games should be played on NA unless players agree otherwise. The not so region locking lock is a completely different issue. Forcing games to be played on NA wont stop Koreans dominating WCS NA.
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On May 01 2013 22:02 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:00 Pokebunny wrote:On May 01 2013 21:54 Fenrax wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? so... what has that to do with anything? what would be the advantage of having "WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on NA? I think we're all going under the assumption that the current system is shit, and will be changed if that happens. If Blizzard wating to create a tournament that was solely the purpose of the highest level of play, they would have just made it global from the start. But clearly they had some intention with making regions feed into a global finals... completely disregarding that for the "sake of high level competition" is basically saying that there isn't a place for a concept such as WCS. You're right, but you're also completely beside the point. The deed is done, the Ro16 will already mostly consist of Koreans. So why not let them play on the KR server? What is the advantage of forcing Koreans to play on NA server when the only other option is allowing them to play on the KR server; when either way you'll still have 12-14 Koreans in the Ro16?
Because it sets a precedent on the future of WCS. Suppose other Koreans see that they're basically just getting an easier tournament on the KR server, why would they not split equally between WCS AM and KR? We need to create some sort of barrier to complete Korean takeover, and then change the system entirely ASAP.
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Austria24422 Posts
On May 01 2013 22:04 Fabozi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? The games should be played on NA unless players agree otherwise. The not so region locking lock is a completely different issue. Forcing games to be played on NA wont stop Koreans dominating WCS NA.
Especially if their foreign opponent is also forced to switch to NA server, lol.
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On May 01 2013 22:04 Fabozi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? The games should be played on NA unless players agree otherwise. The not so region locking lock is a completely different issue. Forcing games to be played on NA wont stop Koreans dominating WCS NA.
The point isn't to stop Koreans from dominating, but for the competition to be continue to be NA based.
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On May 01 2013 22:03 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:00 unkkz wrote:
Play KR WCS then, oh wait too hard? Be quiet and play the NA qualifier on the NA server. What a horrible post. This isn't a qualifier. This is the Premier Division. And they're both living in Korea. It literally changes nothing except that the game gets worse. Unless you just make that terrible argument for the sake of bashing Korean players who switched to NA in which case, ermmmm... don't?
Except the games are played live and observed from NYC. So the potential for lag is still there. Its been said before, but people have forgotten "Chill, GET OUT!"
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On May 01 2013 22:00 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 21:54 Fenrax wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? so... what has that to do with anything? what would be the advantage of having "WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on NA? I think we're all going under the assumption that the current system is shit
agreed
On May 01 2013 22:00 Pokebunny wrote:
, and will be changed if that happens. If Blizzard wating to create a tournament that was solely the purpose of the highest level of play, they would have just made it global from the start. But clearly they had some intention with making regions feed into a global finals... completely disregarding that for the "sake of high level competition" is basically saying that there isn't a place for a concept such as WCS.
Can we also agree on the fact that the Koreans (and the foreigners living in Korea) just pick the best option for themselves like any person would and should? So they are not the ones to blame and punish for Blizzard's fault?
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On May 01 2013 22:05 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:02 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 22:00 Pokebunny wrote:On May 01 2013 21:54 Fenrax wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? so... what has that to do with anything? what would be the advantage of having "WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on NA? I think we're all going under the assumption that the current system is shit, and will be changed if that happens. If Blizzard wating to create a tournament that was solely the purpose of the highest level of play, they would have just made it global from the start. But clearly they had some intention with making regions feed into a global finals... completely disregarding that for the "sake of high level competition" is basically saying that there isn't a place for a concept such as WCS. You're right, but you're also completely beside the point. The deed is done, the Ro16 will already mostly consist of Koreans. So why not let them play on the KR server? What is the advantage of forcing Koreans to play on NA server when the only other option is allowing them to play on the KR server; when either way you'll still have 12-14 Koreans in the Ro16? Because it sets a precedent on the future of WCS. Suppose other Koreans see that they're basically just getting an easier tournament on the KR server, why would they not split equally between WCS AM and KR? We need to create some sort of barrier to complete Korean takeover, and then change the system entirely ASAP.
It's either 90% Koreans playing on NA, or 90% Koreans playing on KR.
The only deterring part about playing on NA is that Koreans have a small disadvantage vs Americans. However, as we have seen so far the Koreans are miles ahead, and a little latency won't stop them from going 2-0 in almost every series that is vs an American.
So it will be either Koreans playing on NA with latency, which will make the games worse and WCS NA even less interesting (arguably it's alrdy a lot lower than KR/EU). Or the Koreans play on KR if both players reside there, and we could actually see some cool games coming out.
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Austria24422 Posts
On May 01 2013 22:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:03 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 01 2013 22:00 unkkz wrote:
Play KR WCS then, oh wait too hard? Be quiet and play the NA qualifier on the NA server. What a horrible post. This isn't a qualifier. This is the Premier Division. And they're both living in Korea. It literally changes nothing except that the game gets worse. Unless you just make that terrible argument for the sake of bashing Korean players who switched to NA in which case, ermmmm... don't? Except the games are played live and observed from NYC. So the potential for lag is still there. Its been said before, but people have forgotten "Chill, GET OUT!"
That's the first reasonable argument I've heard against it. If the lag/delay is really the same then ffs play it on whatever server you want, doesn't matter. If it's not, choose the server with less delay. Simple as that.
WCS will never be regarded as the high end tournament unless Koreans are given a chance to win everywhere. The WCS Grand Finals was nowhere near as stacked as Code S at the time. Not even close.
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On May 01 2013 22:06 Elairec wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:04 Fabozi wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? The games should be played on NA unless players agree otherwise. The not so region locking lock is a completely different issue. Forcing games to be played on NA wont stop Koreans dominating WCS NA. The point isn't to stop Koreans from dominating, but for the competition to be continue to be NA based.
So having koreans play on the NA server is a NA based competition? doubt it.
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On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea?
this line of logic falls to pieces when you realize they actively invited koreans. they didnt (just) hold an open qualifier and koreans crept in unnoticed.
they went out of their way to invite korean players to play, to up the quality of the games. now they force NA server just to spite the people that they invited?
On May 01 2013 22:05 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:02 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 22:00 Pokebunny wrote:On May 01 2013 21:54 Fenrax wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? so... what has that to do with anything? what would be the advantage of having "WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on NA? I think we're all going under the assumption that the current system is shit, and will be changed if that happens. If Blizzard wating to create a tournament that was solely the purpose of the highest level of play, they would have just made it global from the start. But clearly they had some intention with making regions feed into a global finals... completely disregarding that for the "sake of high level competition" is basically saying that there isn't a place for a concept such as WCS. You're right, but you're also completely beside the point. The deed is done, the Ro16 will already mostly consist of Koreans. So why not let them play on the KR server? What is the advantage of forcing Koreans to play on NA server when the only other option is allowing them to play on the KR server; when either way you'll still have 12-14 Koreans in the Ro16? Because it sets a precedent on the future of WCS. Suppose other Koreans see that they're basically just getting an easier tournament on the KR server, why would they not split equally between WCS AM and KR? We need to create some sort of barrier to complete Korean takeover, and then change the system entirely ASAP.
your arguing for something that isnt relevent though. no one is saying use the KR server for kr vs na games. everyone is ok with it being NA prio on the server side. whether this game gets played on KR or NA has absolutely zero bearing on the amount of koreans we see in wcs NA. this change, where both players are playing from KR, is purely to increase the quality of the viewing experience.
your other through process seems to be this is a slippery slope. but i dont see the logic to that either. this isnt some sliding scale of lagginess that we have to make choices on. its a fixed set of points, made up of combinations of home servers and played servers. we can see every possible scenario ahead of time. this is the only time people are asking for a server change.
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On May 01 2013 22:09 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? this line of logic falls to pieces when you realize they actively invited koreans. they didnt (just) hold an open qualifier and koreans crept in unnoticed. they went out of their way to invite korean players to play, to up the quality of the games. now they force NA server just to spite the people that they invited?
They didn't invite the Koreans until the Koreans WILLINGLY decided to play in the NA tournament. So don't act like Blizzard or MLG forced them into anything.
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On May 01 2013 22:02 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:00 Pokebunny wrote:On May 01 2013 21:54 Fenrax wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? so... what has that to do with anything? what would be the advantage of having "WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on NA? I think we're all going under the assumption that the current system is shit, and will be changed if that happens. If Blizzard wating to create a tournament that was solely the purpose of the highest level of play, they would have just made it global from the start. But clearly they had some intention with making regions feed into a global finals... completely disregarding that for the "sake of high level competition" is basically saying that there isn't a place for a concept such as WCS. You're right, but you're also completely beside the point. The deed is done, the Ro16 will already mostly consist of Koreans. So why not let them play on the KR server? What is the advantage of forcing Koreans to play on NA server when the only other option is allowing them to play on the KR server; when either way you'll still have 12-14 Koreans in the Ro16?
Ro16 will be offline in New York iirc.
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On May 01 2013 22:09 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? this line of logic falls to pieces when you realize they actively invited koreans. they didnt (just) hold an open qualifier and koreans crept in unnoticed. they went out of their way to invite korean players to play, to up the quality of the games. now they force NA server just to spite the people that they invited?
Didn't players in the KR region have to play against each other on the NA server during the qualifier? If so, I don't think it is appropriate to change the rule now.
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The other thing is if they allow this and set a precedent, what happens as more and more koreans dominate WCS NA in the coming seasons?
Say you have a group that's 4 koreans. All of a sudden, they're saying "All of us agree we should play on KR server on Korean times, we'll send you the replays so you can cast it."
The fact that the players agree does not make a strong mandate to do whatever they want. Tournaments have rules, and this is excellent foresight by WCS NA.
(lol, I read the first 2 pages and the skipped to end, but obviously others have made this point already!)
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On May 01 2013 22:03 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:00 unkkz wrote:
Play KR WCS then, oh wait too hard? Be quiet and play the NA qualifier on the NA server. What a horrible post. This isn't a qualifier. This is the Premier Division. And they're both living in Korea. It literally changes nothing except that the game gets worse. Unless you just make that terrible argument for the sake of bashing Korean players who switched to NA in which case, ermmmm... don't?
What if we allow them to play KR vs KR. Then next season we would have 4 koreans same group @ RO32 and now they want time to changed around the same time as GSL is running (aka bad air time for US people). Do we allow change then too?
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Austria24422 Posts
On May 01 2013 22:11 Flaele wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:02 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 22:00 Pokebunny wrote:On May 01 2013 21:54 Fenrax wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? so... what has that to do with anything? what would be the advantage of having "WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on NA? I think we're all going under the assumption that the current system is shit, and will be changed if that happens. If Blizzard wating to create a tournament that was solely the purpose of the highest level of play, they would have just made it global from the start. But clearly they had some intention with making regions feed into a global finals... completely disregarding that for the "sake of high level competition" is basically saying that there isn't a place for a concept such as WCS. You're right, but you're also completely beside the point. The deed is done, the Ro16 will already mostly consist of Koreans. So why not let them play on the KR server? What is the advantage of forcing Koreans to play on NA server when the only other option is allowing them to play on the KR server; when either way you'll still have 12-14 Koreans in the Ro16? Ro16 will be offline in New York iirc.
Oh so this whole "it sets a precedent" thing is basically meaningless anyway. There'd be a few matches played on KR server and then it'll be live. I fail to see what the big deal is that forces them to play on NA server.
Plansix' argument is the only reasonable one so far.
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On May 01 2013 22:05 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:02 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 22:00 Pokebunny wrote:On May 01 2013 21:54 Fenrax wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? so... what has that to do with anything? what would be the advantage of having "WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on NA? I think we're all going under the assumption that the current system is shit, and will be changed if that happens. If Blizzard wating to create a tournament that was solely the purpose of the highest level of play, they would have just made it global from the start. But clearly they had some intention with making regions feed into a global finals... completely disregarding that for the "sake of high level competition" is basically saying that there isn't a place for a concept such as WCS. You're right, but you're also completely beside the point. The deed is done, the Ro16 will already mostly consist of Koreans. So why not let them play on the KR server? What is the advantage of forcing Koreans to play on NA server when the only other option is allowing them to play on the KR server; when either way you'll still have 12-14 Koreans in the Ro16? Because it sets a precedent on the future of WCS. Suppose other Koreans see that they're basically just getting an easier tournament on the KR server, why would they not split equally between WCS AM and KR? We need to create some sort of barrier to complete Korean takeover, and then change the system entirely ASAP.
So you would rather create artificial restrictions that hamper the players' in-game ability to actually play the game, rather than a differently-designed system with very specific rules posted and clarified from the outset?
So instead of letting Blizzard and MLG make the best out of this already fucked up situation, and run everything as well as possible to hopefully salvage this trainwreck of an event before going back to the drawing board for next year, you would rather they continue on the same path of stupid decisions and inconveniencing the players that they themselves attracted when they announced the format?
They fucked up. They fucked up real bad. Let everything just play out as best as possible for the players and community, lest you risk incurring even more backlash (and justly so). It's obvious that this format is a failure. Don't fuck it up even harder.
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On May 01 2013 11:05 Sub40APM wrote:
No one forced Major to sign up for WCS NA from Korea. Should pay the price for picking the weakest WCG region to get more money while benefiting from practicing against the superior Koreans.
Holy fuck, people actually think this way. I think I just had an aneurysm.
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EPT
