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On May 01 2013 21:39 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 21:16 Evangelist wrote:
The WCS NA (that's what it is, stop whining about the name) first season has a reasonable distribution of NA based players, a few Taiwanese and a liberal sprinkling of Koreans. At present, makes sense to keep most games on NA for equal lag. Two players want to play on KR server. Do you let them?
Okay. Two seasons down the line. The Ro32 is 65% Korean. More players have migrated over. Only 50% of the players in the league are actually in America. The league is forced to stagger the participants deliberately. Do you let the KR players play on KR?
Three seasons down the line. 80% of the Ro32 is Korean. More players came up through Championship bracket, replaced the native American players searching for easy money. Most of them go home. KR server?
At what point does it stop being WCS NA? Lets be honest here. NA does not have the competitive esports/PC gaming culture of South Korea. That is not going to change any time soon. If you give ground at any point during this ladder, you're basically admitting that the region specificity has nothing to do with region. The only way it is ever going to develop that culture is if it is forced, as it has been with LoL, Halo and so on.
When do you let the Korean players play on the Korean server, at Korean times? No offence but we want the best quality games then the best thing to do is remove all foreigners from competition and just have WCS Korea, NA edition. When WCS NA becomes 80% home settled Korean, exactly why does it make sense to bias the competition in favour of local NA players? Just play the whole thing on the KR server.
Besides, there are a ton of people complaining about "the best possible games". You're talking about a third tier foreigner terran against HerO here. This was never going to be a slobberknocker of a game. It was always going to be a stomp. Pretty much this. I don't see why players should essentially be rewarded by using Blizzard's system to gain an advantage. They're already lucky enough that someone like HerO is allowed to play WCS America without any actual identification as an American, via citizenship or residency. Why should MLG then look to give them even more leeway for playing away from their home server? Eventually WCS America would just become a Ro32 and Ro16 of Koreans played on the KR server, then we fly them all to America for the playoffs. What then is even the point of having a WCS America? I can understand why it might make sense to allow two people living in Korea to play on Korea if it were tied to citizenship or something - but the reality is it seems like most people are fighting for what would essentially become a second version of WCS Korea with an offline LAN finals in America.
Might as well call them divisions 1-2-3-4 if you aren't gonna use regional rules.
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Austria24417 Posts
On May 01 2013 21:39 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 21:16 Evangelist wrote:
The WCS NA (that's what it is, stop whining about the name) first season has a reasonable distribution of NA based players, a few Taiwanese and a liberal sprinkling of Koreans. At present, makes sense to keep most games on NA for equal lag. Two players want to play on KR server. Do you let them?
Okay. Two seasons down the line. The Ro32 is 65% Korean. More players have migrated over. Only 50% of the players in the league are actually in America. The league is forced to stagger the participants deliberately. Do you let the KR players play on KR?
Three seasons down the line. 80% of the Ro32 is Korean. More players came up through Championship bracket, replaced the native American players searching for easy money. Most of them go home. KR server?
At what point does it stop being WCS NA? Lets be honest here. NA does not have the competitive esports/PC gaming culture of South Korea. That is not going to change any time soon. If you give ground at any point during this ladder, you're basically admitting that the region specificity has nothing to do with region. The only way it is ever going to develop that culture is if it is forced, as it has been with LoL, Halo and so on.
When do you let the Korean players play on the Korean server, at Korean times? No offence but we want the best quality games then the best thing to do is remove all foreigners from competition and just have WCS Korea, NA edition. When WCS NA becomes 80% home settled Korean, exactly why does it make sense to bias the competition in favour of local NA players? Just play the whole thing on the KR server.
Besides, there are a ton of people complaining about "the best possible games". You're talking about a third tier foreigner terran against HerO here. This was never going to be a slobberknocker of a game. It was always going to be a stomp. Pretty much this. I don't see why players should essentially be rewarded by using Blizzard's system to gain an advantage. They're already lucky enough that someone like HerO is allowed to play WCS America without any actual identification as an American, via citizenship or residency. Why should MLG then look to give them even more leeway for playing away from their home server? Eventually WCS America would just become a Ro32 and Ro16 of Koreans played on the KR server, then we fly them all to America for the playoffs. What then is even the point of having a WCS America? I can understand why it might make sense to allow two people living in Korea to play on Korea if it were tied to citizenship or something - but the reality is it seems like most people are fighting for what would essentially become a second version of WCS Korea with an offline LAN finals in America.
See none of this makes any sense whatsoever though since the American player we're talking about is also currently living in Korea. There's no advantage for the Korean player here, it's just a disadvantage for both. It's the exact same when two Koreans play each other. It does one thing and one thing only - reduce game quality. If you wanna criticize the system as a whole, that's a different story and legitimate imo.
In this case however it's just retarded to force both to play on NA. Nothing changes at all unless Major has secretly been training on the NA server and developed strategies that work because of the delay time. Which, since he's complaining, I don't think is the case.
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On May 01 2013 10:49 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +"@8th_MajOr
so @MLG is going to make me play my matches on NA server vs liquidhero i wonder who came up with such bullshit we both live in korea atm .." According to MajOr's tweet, he and HerO will have to play their WCS America matches on the NA server, despite the fact that they both reside in Korea. While it would be an even playing field for both players since they would both deal with the lag of playing from KR to NA, the overall quality of play would undoubtedly be affected. While that's probably technically correct if you're following the rules of the tournament to the letter, it's a remarkably inflexible decision. It degrades the WCS tournament by knowingly allowing the level of competition to be lowered, is a discourtesy to the players who want to be able to fully show the skills they have honed through hundreds of hours of practice, and is a disservice to the fans who are expecting the be shown the highest level of gameplay possible. When you consider that region switching is even built into the HotS client, then it's an even more confusing and perplexing decision. Hopefully both players have protested and have had the decision changed.
WCS weakens the integrity of every event it holds. If a foreign event has Korean pros playing in it, they're likely not the top notch best Koreans, so in the end you have the best 2nd Teir Korean winning the event making that win less valuable. And for the GSL with these currently 2nd teir players forced to play overseas it does one of two things. Makes that pro weaker because they're playing against a weaker talent pool or they become strong and dominate the foreign scene, but they're not in the GSL, so the GSL has lost a talent that might have been in Code A, but could have become a superstar.
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I guess that is what you sign up for when you choose WCS NA.
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Is it that hard to just add games are played on NA server unless both players agree otherwise? And with people defending the decision because its WCS NA what about moonglade or sen? Should they also suck it and play in korea? Need I remind you there is an offline requirement for WCS Korea but not for others, so don't treat it like its the same.
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I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea?
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On May 01 2013 21:16 Evangelist wrote:
The WCS NA (that's what it is, stop whining about the name) first season has a reasonable distribution of NA based players, a few Taiwanese and a liberal sprinkling of Koreans. At present, makes sense to keep most games on NA for equal lag. Two players want to play on KR server. Do you let them?
Okay. Two seasons down the line. The Ro32 is 65% Korean. More players have migrated over. Only 50% of the players in the league are actually in America. The league is forced to stagger the participants deliberately. Do you let the KR players play on KR?
Three seasons down the line. 80% of the Ro32 is Korean. More players came up through Championship bracket, replaced the native American players searching for easy money. Most of them go home. KR server?
At what point does it stop being WCS NA? Lets be honest here. NA does not have the competitive esports/PC gaming culture of South Korea. That is not going to change any time soon. If you give ground at any point during this ladder, you're basically admitting that the region specificity has nothing to do with region. The only way it is ever going to develop that culture is if it is forced, as it has been with LoL, Halo and so on.
When do you let the Korean players play on the Korean server, at Korean times? No offence but we want the best quality games then the best thing to do is remove all foreigners from competition and just have WCS Korea, NA edition. When WCS NA becomes 80% home settled Korean, exactly why does it make sense to bias the competition in favour of local NA players? Just play the whole thing on the KR server.
Besides, there are a ton of people complaining about "the best possible games". You're talking about a third tier foreigner terran against HerO here. This was never going to be a slobberknocker of a game. It was always going to be a stomp.
wow Major was a third tier foreigner? by what standards?
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I don't think it should matter at all the server used if any of the players gets an advantadge of it.
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On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea?
So that's the real reason you have a problem with this. 
I think it's up to the community to decide, if they'll watch that then sure.
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On May 01 2013 21:50 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 21:16 Evangelist wrote:
The WCS NA (that's what it is, stop whining about the name) first season has a reasonable distribution of NA based players, a few Taiwanese and a liberal sprinkling of Koreans. At present, makes sense to keep most games on NA for equal lag. Two players want to play on KR server. Do you let them?
Okay. Two seasons down the line. The Ro32 is 65% Korean. More players have migrated over. Only 50% of the players in the league are actually in America. The league is forced to stagger the participants deliberately. Do you let the KR players play on KR?
Three seasons down the line. 80% of the Ro32 is Korean. More players came up through Championship bracket, replaced the native American players searching for easy money. Most of them go home. KR server?
At what point does it stop being WCS NA? Lets be honest here. NA does not have the competitive esports/PC gaming culture of South Korea. That is not going to change any time soon. If you give ground at any point during this ladder, you're basically admitting that the region specificity has nothing to do with region. The only way it is ever going to develop that culture is if it is forced, as it has been with LoL, Halo and so on.
When do you let the Korean players play on the Korean server, at Korean times? No offence but we want the best quality games then the best thing to do is remove all foreigners from competition and just have WCS Korea, NA edition. When WCS NA becomes 80% home settled Korean, exactly why does it make sense to bias the competition in favour of local NA players? Just play the whole thing on the KR server.
Besides, there are a ton of people complaining about "the best possible games". You're talking about a third tier foreigner terran against HerO here. This was never going to be a slobberknocker of a game. It was always going to be a stomp. wow Major was a third tier foreigner? by what standards?
By the standards of people who don't follow the scene closely enough to have any reasonable grasp on who is good and who isn't.
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Austria24417 Posts
On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea?
Well it depends on what Blizzard really wants WCS to be. If they want it to be the best tournament in the world played at the highest level, it'll have to be that way. Koreans play at a higher level than foreigners, this is just a fact.
If they want it to be the best players from each geographic region competing against each other (WCG-esque except bigger), then they'll have to change the system to limiting koreans to WCS Korea, etc.
But that's a bigger question than the one we started with which was why Major vs HerO should be played on NA when both are living in Korea.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea?
so... what has that to do with anything? what would be the advantage of having "WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on NA?
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On May 01 2013 21:54 Fenrax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? so... what has that to do with anything? what would be the advantage of having "WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on NA?
Spite and frustration, there is no objective advantage.
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On May 01 2013 21:54 Fenrax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? so... what has that to do with anything? what would be the advantage of having "WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on NA?
I think we're all going under the assumption that the current system is shit, and will be changed if that happens. If Blizzard wanted to create a tournament that was solely the purpose of the highest level of play, they would have just made it global from the start. But clearly they had some intention with making regions feed into a global finals... completely disregarding that for the "sake of high level competition" is basically saying that there isn't a place for a concept such as WCS.
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Play KR WCS then, oh wait too hard? Be quiet and play the NA qualifier on the NA server.
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On May 01 2013 22:00 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 21:54 Fenrax wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? so... what has that to do with anything? what would be the advantage of having "WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on NA? I think we're all going under the assumption that the current system is shit, and will be changed if that happens. If Blizzard wating to create a tournament that was solely the purpose of the highest level of play, they would have just made it global from the start. But clearly they had some intention with making regions feed into a global finals... completely disregarding that for the "sake of high level competition" is basically saying that there isn't a place for a concept such as WCS.
You're right, but you're also completely beside the point.
The deed is done, the Ro16 will already mostly consist of Koreans. So why not let them play on the KR server? What is the advantage of forcing Koreans to play on NA server when the only other option is allowing them to play on the KR server; when either way you'll still have 12-14 Koreans in the Ro16?
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On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea?
One of the participants IS american and has travelled to Korea, so... what's your point?
He is the one being disadvantaged.
WCS America is his home competition.
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Austria24417 Posts
On May 01 2013 22:00 unkkz wrote:
Play KR WCS then, oh wait too hard? Be quiet and play the NA qualifier on the NA server.
What a horrible post. This isn't a qualifier. This is the Premier Division. And they're both living in Korea. It literally changes nothing except that the game gets worse. Unless you just make that terrible argument for the sake of bashing Korean players who switched to NA in which case, ermmmm... don't?
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EPT
