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Austria24417 Posts
On May 01 2013 22:13 Too_MuchZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:03 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 01 2013 22:00 unkkz wrote:
Play KR WCS then, oh wait too hard? Be quiet and play the NA qualifier on the NA server. What a horrible post. This isn't a qualifier. This is the Premier Division. And they're both living in Korea. It literally changes nothing except that the game gets worse. Unless you just make that terrible argument for the sake of bashing Korean players who switched to NA in which case, ermmmm... don't? What if we allow them to play KR vs KR. Then next season we would have 4 koreans same group @ RO32 and now they want time to changed around the same time as GSL is running (aka bad air time for US people). Do we allow change then too?
Different story. What matters is that the game quality is naturally worse for no reason at all UNLESS see Plansix' post.
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On May 01 2013 22:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:09 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? this line of logic falls to pieces when you realize they actively invited koreans. they didnt (just) hold an open qualifier and koreans crept in unnoticed. they went out of their way to invite korean players to play, to up the quality of the games. now they force NA server just to spite the people that they invited? Didn't players in the KR region have to play against each other on the NA server during the qualifier? If so, I don't think it is appropriate to change the rule now.
the qualifier was an unmitigated shitfest though. if we are going to keep following the systems laid out in the qualifier (and i have no idea what the kr vs kr situation was there either way) we should let cheaters play for an extra 5 hours so that they can eliminate the maximum number of people, because you know... consistency.
using consistency to defend terrible practices just leads to things never changing, because things can only become more enshrined in the rule set. now, the during first run through is the only time we could possibly make a change to anything based on your logic, because otherwise we wouldnt want to break with history.
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On May 01 2013 22:12 Cracked wrote:
The other thing is if they allow this and set a precedent, what happens as more and more koreans dominate WCS NA in the coming seasons?
Say you have a group that's 4 koreans. All of a sudden, they're saying "All of us agree we should play on KR server on Korean times, we'll send you the replays so you can cast it."
The fact that the players agree does not make a strong mandate to do whatever they want. Tournaments have rules, and this is excellent foresight by WCS NA.
(lol, I read the first 2 pages and the skipped to end, but obviously others have made this point already!)
No the schedule is set. They should be able to chose the server that suits them better.
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On May 01 2013 22:06 Elairec wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:04 Fabozi wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? The games should be played on NA unless players agree otherwise. The not so region locking lock is a completely different issue. Forcing games to be played on NA wont stop Koreans dominating WCS NA. The point isn't to stop Koreans from dominating, but for the competition to be continue to be NA based.
But that's completely irrelevant! That's an inherent flaw of the tournament itself, in terms of format, rule system and the way in which they handled announcing all this information to the players and community.
The fact that players from the same region should be given the courtesy of playing on their region's server has nothing to do with promoting one region or supporting one scene or whatever.
Those two players, both residing in Korea, both wanting to play on the Korean server, ARE STILL THERE, regardless of where the games are played. If your problem is that they're there, fix the fucking qualification/invite method.
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unless there is a terrible difference in ping or major lag because of the distance, i highly doubt this will affect the game overall.
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Austria24417 Posts
Yeah I don't think the qualifiers should be part of this argument at all. They were nothing but one fuckup after another.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On May 01 2013 22:12 Cracked wrote:
The other thing is if they allow this and set a precedent, what happens as more and more koreans dominate WCS NA in the coming seasons?
Say you have a group that's 4 koreans. All of a sudden, they're saying "All of us agree we should play on KR server on Korean times, we'll send you the replays so you can cast it."
The fact that the players agree does not make a strong mandate to do whatever they want. Tournaments have rules, and this is excellent foresight by WCS NA.
Yeah, and then the next day they suddenly take our wifes and kids and only MLG and their server enforcement stands up to them...
If you don't have any arguments just invent something. This thread is fun.
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On May 01 2013 18:49 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 18:46 Magnets wrote:
I ca't really agree with this at all. The two players in question both reside in korea, why not play those games in Korea? Even if this is for WCS NA, it's not conducive to the level of play to have more latency introduced into the game that can be avoided. Hell the games can still be played same day and those replays provided as 'fresh' and when I say fresh similar to how NASL had game replays provided to them where the replays were played during broadcast and provided to them as soon as they were finished.
Sad to say, but this is another reason why NASL would have been the superior choice for the North American scene. They understand how to meet the expectations of the audience while working with the players to provide the best games possible. Games played on Korea server if both players are in Korea, games played on one server then the other for those that are split, with the exception of Kor - EU where I think both games were played on NA as it was less lag than the korean to EU lag. Also in some circumstances games were still casted from replays (players not wanting it played live or
As it stands here, this is a deterrent whether they believe it or not. Players haven't had the chance to relocate and based on these kinds of decisions either rush that relocation, show bad games or potentially drop out due to inability to produce quality games. Inflexibility on the part of the rule makers shows a lack of ability to make judgement calls that can actually benefit all parties involved. to make the koreans not love it so much ... its WCS na ... deal with it ! the casters are NA why should they go to KR to watch the games that called NA i love this decision (i would as i said prever not allow players from korea participate) so you should have to LIFE in the country or BE from the country (like major is ok, hero not) to play in it  then it would not be rassistic it would just be perfect
The key flaw here is that none of the players knew what the 'region representation' they were being asked about was for. They locked themselves into these regions with no knowledge as to what it would entail. No rules were in place prior to them declaring their regions, no one even knew what was going on until after the dust settled. And even worse, I suspect a number of people still don't know.
That being said you are missing the point, why make players uncomfortable with their play situation, especially when both are in the same geographic area? That's right, there is no reason to force this situation with the exception of terrible enforcement of rules.
Your insistence that you be from the country or live there has no basis within this specific factor as the issue is already in place (one korean player and a NA player living in Korea). What if both players happened to be North American natives and living abroad, why not allow the matches to be played in a manner which produces the least amount of discomfort for both players and promotes good play? Oh that's right, a bad ruling that disregards producing the best matches possible.
You want to produce a true world championship series you do so by preventing or limiting situations that can produce bad matches. Not by enforcing rules which undermine that idea entirely. Again, other organizations accomplished this and they are sitting there trying to reinvent the wheel.
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On May 01 2013 22:12 Cracked wrote:
The other thing is if they allow this and set a precedent, what happens as more and more koreans dominate WCS NA in the coming seasons?
koreans have a 100% success rate in both qualifying and getting out of their groups, and any sensible prediction says that this will continue. i dont know how much worse it can get, so i dont know what exactly you are getting at.
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On May 01 2013 22:15 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:02 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 22:00 Pokebunny wrote:On May 01 2013 21:54 Fenrax wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? so... what has that to do with anything? what would be the advantage of having "WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on NA? I think we're all going under the assumption that the current system is shit, and will be changed if that happens. If Blizzard wating to create a tournament that was solely the purpose of the highest level of play, they would have just made it global from the start. But clearly they had some intention with making regions feed into a global finals... completely disregarding that for the "sake of high level competition" is basically saying that there isn't a place for a concept such as WCS. You're right, but you're also completely beside the point. The deed is done, the Ro16 will already mostly consist of Koreans. So why not let them play on the KR server? What is the advantage of forcing Koreans to play on NA server when the only other option is allowing them to play on the KR server; when either way you'll still have 12-14 Koreans in the Ro16? The advantage is simplicity for the tournament organisers, casters and admins. What are the disadvatanges? You're probably going to say lag and latency, but casters will have to cast cross-server if the players are on KR and so THERE WILL STILL BE LAG. Seriously, drop this "game quality" argument because it's incorrect. There will be cross-server lag from either the casters or the players regardless of how you do it. I like how you've simply ignored the many times I've pointed this out to you, since you have no response but to continue repeating it in ignorance. 
The fact that there's delay between the observers and the server doesn't matter unless they're actively lagging (like in that only, single example you can provide of Naniwa vs Thorzain, which by the way, if I'm not mistaken since they were all in NY, everyone was on NA server  ) which should be fixed by giving the observers a good, stable connection.
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On May 01 2013 22:19 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:17 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 22:06 Elairec wrote:On May 01 2013 22:04 Fabozi wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? The games should be played on NA unless players agree otherwise. The not so region locking lock is a completely different issue. Forcing games to be played on NA wont stop Koreans dominating WCS NA. The point isn't to stop Koreans from dominating, but for the competition to be continue to be NA based. But that's completely irrelevant! That's an inherent flaw of the tournament itself, in terms of format, rule system and the way in which they handled announcing all this information to the players and community. The fact that players from the same region should be given the courtesy of playing on their region's server has nothing to do with promoting one region or supporting one scene or whatever. Those two players, both residing in Korea, both wanting to play on the Korean server, ARE STILL THERE, regardless of where the games are played. If your problem is that they're there, fix the fucking qualification/invite method. "The advantage is simplicity for the tournament organisers, casters and admins. What are the disadvatanges? You're probably going to say lag and latency, but casters will have to cast cross-server if the players are on KR and so THERE WILL STILL BE LAG. Seriously, drop this "game quality" argument because it's incorrect. There will be cross-server lag from either the casters or the players regardless of how you do it. I like how you've simply ignored the many times I've pointed this out to you, since you have no response but to continue repeating it in ignorance." Still ignoring the truth. So cute Master
I didn't see your post, but you can continue to be an obsessive, defensive MLG fanboy.
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Austria24417 Posts
The only question for me is if there's any difference in lag/delay between KR and NA if it's cast live from NY. If one server has less lag/delay for the players, fucking play on that server. There is no reason WHATSOEVER not to.
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i understand people saying rules are rules, should be on NA etc. Yes in the two players in NA using the NA servers, as well as just one player who is in NA for it to be played on NA, that is where NA players get the host advantage, fair enough.
but if both players are outside of NA, then why would we want a lesser quality match, where both players are at 200 ping, poor micro to be seen from everyone, it just doesn't make any sense, yes play it on the Korean server so we get the best games. The next games to played against someone from NA will be on the NA server and you are at a disadvantage, that's what you signed up for.
come on people!
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On May 01 2013 22:19 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:17 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 22:06 Elairec wrote:On May 01 2013 22:04 Fabozi wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? The games should be played on NA unless players agree otherwise. The not so region locking lock is a completely different issue. Forcing games to be played on NA wont stop Koreans dominating WCS NA. The point isn't to stop Koreans from dominating, but for the competition to be continue to be NA based. But that's completely irrelevant! That's an inherent flaw of the tournament itself, in terms of format, rule system and the way in which they handled announcing all this information to the players and community. The fact that players from the same region should be given the courtesy of playing on their region's server has nothing to do with promoting one region or supporting one scene or whatever. Those two players, both residing in Korea, both wanting to play on the Korean server, ARE STILL THERE, regardless of where the games are played. If your problem is that they're there, fix the fucking qualification/invite method. "The advantage is simplicity for the tournament organisers, casters and admins. What are the disadvatanges? You're probably going to say lag and latency, but casters will have to cast cross-server if the players are on KR and so THERE WILL STILL BE LAG. Seriously, drop this "game quality" argument because it's incorrect. There will be cross-server lag from either the casters or the players regardless of how you do it. I like how you've simply ignored the many times I've pointed this out to you, since you have no response but to continue repeating it in ignorance." Still ignoring the truth. So cute Master
i dont understand what cross server lag for a caster looks like. how exactly is that an equivalent to players losing units because they cant micro correctly? i dont think battlenet works how you think it works. having an observer from NA doesnt slow down the connection for the 2 players on KR if the server is KR.
you seem to be under the impression that the ping for the players will triple as soon as the observers join, but thats simple not the case. in a p2p connection system, to keep the games synced this might be the case, but using the battlenet hosting service it is irrelevant where the observer is.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On May 01 2013 22:05 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:02 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 22:00 Pokebunny wrote:On May 01 2013 21:54 Fenrax wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? so... what has that to do with anything? what would be the advantage of having "WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on NA? I think we're all going under the assumption that the current system is shit, and will be changed if that happens. If Blizzard wating to create a tournament that was solely the purpose of the highest level of play, they would have just made it global from the start. But clearly they had some intention with making regions feed into a global finals... completely disregarding that for the "sake of high level competition" is basically saying that there isn't a place for a concept such as WCS. You're right, but you're also completely beside the point. The deed is done, the Ro16 will already mostly consist of Koreans. So why not let them play on the KR server? What is the advantage of forcing Koreans to play on NA server when the only other option is allowing them to play on the KR server; when either way you'll still have 12-14 Koreans in the Ro16? Because it sets a precedent on the future of WCS. Suppose other Koreans see that they're basically just getting an easier tournament on the KR server, why would they not split equally between WCS AM and KR? We need to create some sort of barrier to complete Korean takeover, and then change the system entirely ASAP.
Koreans do not get an "easier tournament" because they'd be allowed to play on KR if both players agree but still have to play on NA if either player wants them to. Try again.
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On May 01 2013 22:16 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:12 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 22:09 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? this line of logic falls to pieces when you realize they actively invited koreans. they didnt (just) hold an open qualifier and koreans crept in unnoticed. they went out of their way to invite korean players to play, to up the quality of the games. now they force NA server just to spite the people that they invited? Didn't players in the KR region have to play against each other on the NA server during the qualifier? If so, I don't think it is appropriate to change the rule now. the qualifier was an unmitigated shitfest though. if we are going to keep following the systems laid out in the qualifier (and i have no idea what the kr vs kr situation was there either way) we should let cheaters play for an extra 5 hours so that they can eliminate the maximum number of people, because you know... consistency. using consistency to defend terrible practices just leads to things never changing, because things can only become more enshrined in the rule set. now, the during first run through is the only time we could possibly make a change to anything based on your logic, because otherwise we wouldnt want to break with history.
If the games are casted live, it won't matter. The observers need to connect to the game as well and that creates latency issues for both the players(see Chill, GET OUT!). With all that being true, playing on NA is sort of a non-issue.
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On May 01 2013 22:22 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:19 Sated wrote:On May 01 2013 22:17 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 22:06 Elairec wrote:On May 01 2013 22:04 Fabozi wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? The games should be played on NA unless players agree otherwise. The not so region locking lock is a completely different issue. Forcing games to be played on NA wont stop Koreans dominating WCS NA. The point isn't to stop Koreans from dominating, but for the competition to be continue to be NA based. But that's completely irrelevant! That's an inherent flaw of the tournament itself, in terms of format, rule system and the way in which they handled announcing all this information to the players and community. The fact that players from the same region should be given the courtesy of playing on their region's server has nothing to do with promoting one region or supporting one scene or whatever. Those two players, both residing in Korea, both wanting to play on the Korean server, ARE STILL THERE, regardless of where the games are played. If your problem is that they're there, fix the fucking qualification/invite method. "The advantage is simplicity for the tournament organisers, casters and admins. What are the disadvatanges? You're probably going to say lag and latency, but casters will have to cast cross-server if the players are on KR and so THERE WILL STILL BE LAG. Seriously, drop this "game quality" argument because it's incorrect. There will be cross-server lag from either the casters or the players regardless of how you do it. I like how you've simply ignored the many times I've pointed this out to you, since you have no response but to continue repeating it in ignorance." Still ignoring the truth. So cute Master i dont understand what cross server lag for a caster looks like. how exactly is that an equivalent to players losing units because they cant micro correctly? i dont think battlenet works how you think it works. having an observer from NA doesnt slow down the connection for the 2 players on KR if the server is KR. you seem to be under the impression that the ping for the players will triple as soon as the observers join, but thats simple not the case. in a p2p connection system, to keep the games synced this might be the case, but using the battlenet hosting service it is irrelevant where the observer is.
The only issue is if the connection between observer and server is so bad that he's actively being dropped, otherwise it's not noticeable by the players themselves.
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EPT
