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Austria24422 Posts
On May 01 2013 22:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:16 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 22:12 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 22:09 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? this line of logic falls to pieces when you realize they actively invited koreans. they didnt (just) hold an open qualifier and koreans crept in unnoticed. they went out of their way to invite korean players to play, to up the quality of the games. now they force NA server just to spite the people that they invited? Didn't players in the KR region have to play against each other on the NA server during the qualifier? If so, I don't think it is appropriate to change the rule now. the qualifier was an unmitigated shitfest though. if we are going to keep following the systems laid out in the qualifier (and i have no idea what the kr vs kr situation was there either way) we should let cheaters play for an extra 5 hours so that they can eliminate the maximum number of people, because you know... consistency. using consistency to defend terrible practices just leads to things never changing, because things can only become more enshrined in the rule set. now, the during first run through is the only time we could possibly make a change to anything based on your logic, because otherwise we wouldnt want to break with history. If the games are casted live, it won't matter. The observers need to connect to the game as well and that creates latency issues for both the players(see Chill, GET OUT!). With all that being true, playing on NA is sort of a non-issue.
If this is true then I 100% agree, play it on NA without a question.
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On May 01 2013 22:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:16 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 22:12 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 22:09 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? this line of logic falls to pieces when you realize they actively invited koreans. they didnt (just) hold an open qualifier and koreans crept in unnoticed. they went out of their way to invite korean players to play, to up the quality of the games. now they force NA server just to spite the people that they invited? Didn't players in the KR region have to play against each other on the NA server during the qualifier? If so, I don't think it is appropriate to change the rule now. the qualifier was an unmitigated shitfest though. if we are going to keep following the systems laid out in the qualifier (and i have no idea what the kr vs kr situation was there either way) we should let cheaters play for an extra 5 hours so that they can eliminate the maximum number of people, because you know... consistency. using consistency to defend terrible practices just leads to things never changing, because things can only become more enshrined in the rule set. now, the during first run through is the only time we could possibly make a change to anything based on your logic, because otherwise we wouldnt want to break with history. If the games are casted live, it won't matter. The observers need to connect to the game as well and that creates latency issues for both the players(see Chill, GET OUT!). With all that being true, playing on NA is sort of a non-issue.
Except not. The only reason the players felt that is because Chill was actively being dropped by the server because of his poor connection.
Also, I love how it's the only example you can think of, it's even funnier that everyone involved was on NA at that time, including Chill. 
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On May 01 2013 22:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:16 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 22:12 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 22:09 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? this line of logic falls to pieces when you realize they actively invited koreans. they didnt (just) hold an open qualifier and koreans crept in unnoticed. they went out of their way to invite korean players to play, to up the quality of the games. now they force NA server just to spite the people that they invited? Didn't players in the KR region have to play against each other on the NA server during the qualifier? If so, I don't think it is appropriate to change the rule now. the qualifier was an unmitigated shitfest though. if we are going to keep following the systems laid out in the qualifier (and i have no idea what the kr vs kr situation was there either way) we should let cheaters play for an extra 5 hours so that they can eliminate the maximum number of people, because you know... consistency. using consistency to defend terrible practices just leads to things never changing, because things can only become more enshrined in the rule set. now, the during first run through is the only time we could possibly make a change to anything based on your logic, because otherwise we wouldnt want to break with history. If the games are casted live, it won't matter. The observers need to connect to the game as well and that creates latency issues for both the players(see Chill, GET OUT!). With all that being true, playing on NA is sort of a non-issue.
but chill lagging was an NA game with everyone in the NA region. so you just proved the opposite of your point, because people can cause lag/unstable connections even from the same server.
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the amount of hatred towards better players who happen to be korean in this thread is quite disgusting.
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On May 01 2013 22:25 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:23 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 22:16 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 22:12 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 22:09 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? this line of logic falls to pieces when you realize they actively invited koreans. they didnt (just) hold an open qualifier and koreans crept in unnoticed. they went out of their way to invite korean players to play, to up the quality of the games. now they force NA server just to spite the people that they invited? Didn't players in the KR region have to play against each other on the NA server during the qualifier? If so, I don't think it is appropriate to change the rule now. the qualifier was an unmitigated shitfest though. if we are going to keep following the systems laid out in the qualifier (and i have no idea what the kr vs kr situation was there either way) we should let cheaters play for an extra 5 hours so that they can eliminate the maximum number of people, because you know... consistency. using consistency to defend terrible practices just leads to things never changing, because things can only become more enshrined in the rule set. now, the during first run through is the only time we could possibly make a change to anything based on your logic, because otherwise we wouldnt want to break with history. If the games are casted live, it won't matter. The observers need to connect to the game as well and that creates latency issues for both the players(see Chill, GET OUT!). With all that being true, playing on NA is sort of a non-issue. Except not. The only reason the players felt that is because Chill was actively being dropped by the server because of his poor connection. Also, I love how it's the only example you can think of, it's even funnier that everyone involved was on NA at that time, including Chill.
Well it also happened yesterday on the ESL broadcast. As as far as I know, an "observer" and a "player" at considered the same thing by Battle.net when the game is ongoing. I don't think the game treats them any differently and they all can experience latency based on the worst possible connection.
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On May 01 2013 10:54 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 10:49 Waxangel wrote:"@8th_MajOr
so @MLG is going to make me play my matches on NA server vs liquidhero i wonder who came up with such bullshit we both live in korea atm .." According to MajOr's tweet, he and HerO will have to play their WCS America matches on the NA server, despite the fact that they both reside in Korea. While that's probably technically correct if you're following the rules of the tournament to the letter, it's a remarkably inflexible decision. It degrades the WCS tournament by knowingly allowing the level of competition to be lowered, is a discourtesy to the players who want to be able to fully show the skills they have honed through hundreds of hours of practice, and is a disservice to the fans who are expecting the be shown the highest level of gameplay possible. When you consider that region switching is even built into the HotS client, then it's an even more confusing and perplexing decision. Hopefully both players have protested and have had the decision changed. It's WCS NA. It's for whoever is better at playing on the NA server. Maybe instead of complaining about playing WCS NA on the NA server, they could play WCS KR on the KR server. It's a deterrent, because it adds uncertainty to the game. I fully support even stronger deterrents against cross region play. Simile: It's like joining a Chinese debate team and then complaining that they don't debate in English.
I agree with this guy.
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On May 01 2013 22:28 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:25 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 22:23 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 22:16 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 22:12 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 22:09 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? this line of logic falls to pieces when you realize they actively invited koreans. they didnt (just) hold an open qualifier and koreans crept in unnoticed. they went out of their way to invite korean players to play, to up the quality of the games. now they force NA server just to spite the people that they invited? Didn't players in the KR region have to play against each other on the NA server during the qualifier? If so, I don't think it is appropriate to change the rule now. the qualifier was an unmitigated shitfest though. if we are going to keep following the systems laid out in the qualifier (and i have no idea what the kr vs kr situation was there either way) we should let cheaters play for an extra 5 hours so that they can eliminate the maximum number of people, because you know... consistency. using consistency to defend terrible practices just leads to things never changing, because things can only become more enshrined in the rule set. now, the during first run through is the only time we could possibly make a change to anything based on your logic, because otherwise we wouldnt want to break with history. If the games are casted live, it won't matter. The observers need to connect to the game as well and that creates latency issues for both the players(see Chill, GET OUT!). With all that being true, playing on NA is sort of a non-issue. Except not. The only reason the players felt that is because Chill was actively being dropped by the server because of his poor connection. Also, I love how it's the only example you can think of, it's even funnier that everyone involved was on NA at that time, including Chill. It's not the only example, it happens constantly in weekly cups like ZOTAC and Go4SC2. It happened in WCS EU yesterday. Given that ESL have a range of casters so that they can accomodate the many languages of the EU, we have to expect that similar issues could occur. You can argue that these are issues within the same server, but all that means is that these issues will be amplified if you suddenly force a load of casters cross-server just two help two players. This means that it is best to have a set rule that prevents this from ever happening, and that all players understand that this rule exists, so that there are no arguments and no confusion in the future.
I agree, which is why I'm trying to look for the particular post where it very clearly states this rule of only playing on that server without exception. Because I'm interested if this detail was revealed before the qualifiers or afterwards, since prior to MajOr's tweet there was no discussion about this issue?
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On May 01 2013 22:33 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:28 Sated wrote:On May 01 2013 22:25 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 22:23 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 22:16 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 22:12 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 22:09 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? this line of logic falls to pieces when you realize they actively invited koreans. they didnt (just) hold an open qualifier and koreans crept in unnoticed. they went out of their way to invite korean players to play, to up the quality of the games. now they force NA server just to spite the people that they invited? Didn't players in the KR region have to play against each other on the NA server during the qualifier? If so, I don't think it is appropriate to change the rule now. the qualifier was an unmitigated shitfest though. if we are going to keep following the systems laid out in the qualifier (and i have no idea what the kr vs kr situation was there either way) we should let cheaters play for an extra 5 hours so that they can eliminate the maximum number of people, because you know... consistency. using consistency to defend terrible practices just leads to things never changing, because things can only become more enshrined in the rule set. now, the during first run through is the only time we could possibly make a change to anything based on your logic, because otherwise we wouldnt want to break with history. If the games are casted live, it won't matter. The observers need to connect to the game as well and that creates latency issues for both the players(see Chill, GET OUT!). With all that being true, playing on NA is sort of a non-issue. Except not. The only reason the players felt that is because Chill was actively being dropped by the server because of his poor connection. Also, I love how it's the only example you can think of, it's even funnier that everyone involved was on NA at that time, including Chill. It's not the only example, it happens constantly in weekly cups like ZOTAC and Go4SC2. It happened in WCS EU yesterday. Given that ESL have a range of casters so that they can accomodate the many languages of the EU, we have to expect that similar issues could occur. You can argue that these are issues within the same server, but all that means is that these issues will be amplified if you suddenly force a load of casters cross-server just two help two players. This means that it is best to have a set rule that prevents this from ever happening, and that all players understand that this rule exists, so that there are no arguments and no confusion in the future. I agree, which is why I'm trying to look for the particular post where it very clearly states this rule of only playing on that server without exception. Because I'm interested if this detail was revealed before the qualifiers or afterwards, since prior to MajOr's tweet there was no discussion about this issue?
On May 01 2013 20:24 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
It isn't really a big deal, but your argument isn't correct as the WCS rules did not exist when people signed up. Believing the rules shouldn't be changed is a different opinion from believing it is a good rule, anyway.
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They need to make sure that the level of play in WCS NA stays a few steps below Code S.
Not to be disrespectful, but watching Fenix vs Apocalypse... not exactly a Code S level game.
MLG must be scared of having two players in the best possible training environments accidentaly making a good match happen
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On May 01 2013 22:36 Fenrax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:33 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 22:28 Sated wrote:On May 01 2013 22:25 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 22:23 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 22:16 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 22:12 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 22:09 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? this line of logic falls to pieces when you realize they actively invited koreans. they didnt (just) hold an open qualifier and koreans crept in unnoticed. they went out of their way to invite korean players to play, to up the quality of the games. now they force NA server just to spite the people that they invited? Didn't players in the KR region have to play against each other on the NA server during the qualifier? If so, I don't think it is appropriate to change the rule now. the qualifier was an unmitigated shitfest though. if we are going to keep following the systems laid out in the qualifier (and i have no idea what the kr vs kr situation was there either way) we should let cheaters play for an extra 5 hours so that they can eliminate the maximum number of people, because you know... consistency. using consistency to defend terrible practices just leads to things never changing, because things can only become more enshrined in the rule set. now, the during first run through is the only time we could possibly make a change to anything based on your logic, because otherwise we wouldnt want to break with history. If the games are casted live, it won't matter. The observers need to connect to the game as well and that creates latency issues for both the players(see Chill, GET OUT!). With all that being true, playing on NA is sort of a non-issue. Except not. The only reason the players felt that is because Chill was actively being dropped by the server because of his poor connection. Also, I love how it's the only example you can think of, it's even funnier that everyone involved was on NA at that time, including Chill. It's not the only example, it happens constantly in weekly cups like ZOTAC and Go4SC2. It happened in WCS EU yesterday. Given that ESL have a range of casters so that they can accomodate the many languages of the EU, we have to expect that similar issues could occur. You can argue that these are issues within the same server, but all that means is that these issues will be amplified if you suddenly force a load of casters cross-server just two help two players. This means that it is best to have a set rule that prevents this from ever happening, and that all players understand that this rule exists, so that there are no arguments and no confusion in the future. I agree, which is why I'm trying to look for the particular post where it very clearly states this rule of only playing on that server without exception. Because I'm interested if this detail was revealed before the qualifiers or afterwards, since prior to MajOr's tweet there was no discussion about this issue? Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 20:24 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
It isn't really a big deal, but your argument isn't correct as the WCS rules did not exist when people signed up. Believing the rules shouldn't be changed is a different opinion from believing it is a good rule, anyway.
Exactly. So all this talk of precedents and what will become of WCS America gets thrown out the window when we realize that Blizzard didn't even make all the details and rules clear to begin with, thereby causing mass misinformation.
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Austria24422 Posts
On May 01 2013 22:29 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 10:54 Jormundr wrote:On May 01 2013 10:49 Waxangel wrote:https://twitter.com/8th_MajOr/status/328556801756901378"@8th_MajOr
so @MLG is going to make me play my matches on NA server vs liquidhero i wonder who came up with such bullshit we both live in korea atm .." According to MajOr's tweet, he and HerO will have to play their WCS America matches on the NA server, despite the fact that they both reside in Korea. While that's probably technically correct if you're following the rules of the tournament to the letter, it's a remarkably inflexible decision. It degrades the WCS tournament by knowingly allowing the level of competition to be lowered, is a discourtesy to the players who want to be able to fully show the skills they have honed through hundreds of hours of practice, and is a disservice to the fans who are expecting the be shown the highest level of gameplay possible. When you consider that region switching is even built into the HotS client, then it's an even more confusing and perplexing decision. Hopefully both players have protested and have had the decision changed. It's WCS NA. It's for whoever is better at playing on the NA server. Maybe instead of complaining about playing WCS NA on the NA server, they could play WCS KR on the KR server. It's a deterrent, because it adds uncertainty to the game. I fully support even stronger deterrents against cross region play. Simile: It's like joining a Chinese debate team and then complaining that they don't debate in English. I agree with this guy.
Silly metaphor though. It's like joining a chinese debate team with another english guy and complaining that you can't debate with him in english when it's only you two.
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On May 01 2013 22:33 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:28 Sated wrote:On May 01 2013 22:25 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 22:23 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 22:16 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 22:12 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 22:09 turdburgler wrote:On May 01 2013 21:49 Pokebunny wrote:
I edited this into my last post, but since people have already quoted me:
I guess to rehash my opinion: in some situations, maybe it would make sense to play on another server, for example if both the participants were American and traveled to Europe for a weekend tournament they could play there.. but where do we stop making allowances for Korean players in what was basically supposed to be the first real region-divided league? What kind of precedent does this set for future scenarios? Should we be okay with WCS America ending up as 90% Korean with all the games played on Korea? this line of logic falls to pieces when you realize they actively invited koreans. they didnt (just) hold an open qualifier and koreans crept in unnoticed. they went out of their way to invite korean players to play, to up the quality of the games. now they force NA server just to spite the people that they invited? Didn't players in the KR region have to play against each other on the NA server during the qualifier? If so, I don't think it is appropriate to change the rule now. the qualifier was an unmitigated shitfest though. if we are going to keep following the systems laid out in the qualifier (and i have no idea what the kr vs kr situation was there either way) we should let cheaters play for an extra 5 hours so that they can eliminate the maximum number of people, because you know... consistency. using consistency to defend terrible practices just leads to things never changing, because things can only become more enshrined in the rule set. now, the during first run through is the only time we could possibly make a change to anything based on your logic, because otherwise we wouldnt want to break with history. If the games are casted live, it won't matter. The observers need to connect to the game as well and that creates latency issues for both the players(see Chill, GET OUT!). With all that being true, playing on NA is sort of a non-issue. Except not. The only reason the players felt that is because Chill was actively being dropped by the server because of his poor connection. Also, I love how it's the only example you can think of, it's even funnier that everyone involved was on NA at that time, including Chill. It's not the only example, it happens constantly in weekly cups like ZOTAC and Go4SC2. It happened in WCS EU yesterday. Given that ESL have a range of casters so that they can accomodate the many languages of the EU, we have to expect that similar issues could occur. You can argue that these are issues within the same server, but all that means is that these issues will be amplified if you suddenly force a load of casters cross-server just two help two players. This means that it is best to have a set rule that prevents this from ever happening, and that all players understand that this rule exists, so that there are no arguments and no confusion in the future. I agree, which is why I'm trying to look for the particular post where it very clearly states this rule of only playing on that server without exception. Because I'm interested if this detail was revealed before the qualifiers or afterwards, since prior to MajOr's tweet there was no discussion about this issue?
From what Naz'Gul said, the rule was set up after people picked their regions. I don't know the exact timeline for the rule, but it was likely set up before any matches were played. I think this is a case of a player freaking out about a rule they don't agree with, but not really thinking of the reasons why the rule is in place. Players(and the community) tend to focus on the match itself, rather than the issues created by attempting to broadcast that match.
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I think its reasonable. Its WCS NA, if they dont like it they should have went for WCS KR instead. lol
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On May 01 2013 22:44 weiliem wrote:
I think its reasonable. Its WCS NA, if they dont like it they should have went for WCS KR instead. lol
WCS NA no longer exists, it's WCS Americas. and since MajOr is from Mexico it should be played on SA server with your stupid logic since the imperialism from US and Canadian citizens seems to think that Americas = NA.
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United States97276 Posts
On May 01 2013 22:46 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:44 weiliem wrote:
I think its reasonable. Its WCS NA, if they dont like it they should have went for WCS KR instead. lol WCS NA no longer exists, it's WCS Americas. and since MajOr is from Mexico it should be played on SA server with your stupid logic.
Mexico is in North America though
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On May 01 2013 22:48 Shellshock1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 22:46 sAsImre wrote:On May 01 2013 22:44 weiliem wrote:
I think its reasonable. Its WCS NA, if they dont like it they should have went for WCS KR instead. lol WCS NA no longer exists, it's WCS Americas. and since MajOr is from Mexico it should be played on SA server with your stupid logic. Mexico is in North America though
just edited to prevent geography to fuck up his point 
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I think it's absolutely correct to force them to play on the NA server. This is WCS NA not WCS KR. They had the choice of playing in the latter but choose NA instead. They should be grateful already that they were allowed to play in a low-level league that has the same prize-pool as the GSL (where they couldn't keep up with the KeSPA guys). I see no need to accomodate them even more.
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On May 01 2013 22:51 revoN wrote:
I think it's absolutely correct to force them to play on the NA server. This is WCS NA not WCS KR. They had the choice of playing in the latter but choose NA instead. They should be grateful already that they were allowed to play in a low-level league that has the same prize-pool as the GSL (where they couldn't keep up with the KeSPA guys). I see no need to accomodate them even more.
WCS Na doesn't exist.
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EPT
