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On May 01 2013 19:22 sc2superfan101 wrote:
To me this really seems like a non-issue. It would be bad and horribly inadvisable to change the rule mid-season. Most people have recognized that. Last night, Nestea and Apocalypse played against each other. I assume they played on NA server. If you change the rule now, what stops Apocalypse from demanding a rematch to be played on KR server? And of course Nestea would say no because he won, but would he have said no if the rule was different to begin with? How would it be fair to Apocalypse to say that the rule stands for him, but is different now? So let's say you give him the rematch, and Apocalypse wins this time. Now Minigun says "Woah, I would've beaten Nestea if I played him! I need a rematch between me and Nestea!" That's why you don't change rules mid-season unless you have a damn good reason. Because it is unfair to all those who played under the old rule.
Now if we accept that the rule shouldn't be changed mid-season, that leaves next season. But we don't even know how next season is going to work anyway. They might change the rules to make this rule irrelevant: all rounds played offline. Until we have some idea as to what the rules will be for next season, we can't really make judgement calls on what rules need to be changed and what don't.
All we're left with is the question of whether the rule is good in the first place or not, which is all just a matter of opinion. I think it's a fine rule, not good but not really bad either. It makes sense to a certain degree: all games played on one server leaves out all kinds of bickering (ex: EU player wants to play on EU but his KR opponent wants to play on KR, neither wants to play on NA, etc.), and it ensures an even playing field (everyone plays on the same server with the same disadvantages/advantages as anyone else). You could argue that it's inconvenient, but that's not a very strong argument against the rule. It works, and I suppose if you feel that way than from your point of view the rule is bad, but still, that's not very important. At that point it just turns into a "yes!" "no!" argument with no real end because it's like arguing if chocolate or vanilla ice cream is better.
the "rule" is just bad.
other leagues handled this issue way better. just word it:
NA is the preferred server, can only be changed when both players agree.
it's not like they are forcing a bo3 to be played on NA/EU/coinflip, like it's in dota.
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On May 01 2013 19:27 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 19:24 Gevna wrote:
So for the sake of the rule we should forget any common sense and sabotage a match. This sounds really smart. Anyway most of the comments in this topic reminds me this racist idea "they come to steal our jobs and money".
"They are stealing our WCS slots, so now we will lose all logic and make decision based on bitterness".
They aren't stealing anyones slots. It's just they aren't honoring the ruling by the tournament admin. Bottom line is, if they wish to play in WCS NA, then they have to play as the WCS NA admins choose.
But obviously everyone already knows that the admin's decision is final; they're debating if this decision makes any fucking sense at all.
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On May 01 2013 19:29 Oktyabr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 19:27 Nekovivie wrote:On May 01 2013 19:24 Gevna wrote:
So for the sake of the rule we should forget any common sense and sabotage a match. This sounds really smart. Anyway most of the comments in this topic reminds me this racist idea "they come to steal our jobs and money".
"They are stealing our WCS slots, so now we will lose all logic and make decision based on bitterness".
They aren't stealing anyones slots. It's just they aren't honoring the ruling by the tournament admin. Bottom line is, if they wish to play in WCS NA, then they have to play as the WCS NA admins choose. But obviously everyone already knows that the admin's decision is final; they're debating if this decision makes any fucking sense at all.
Which decision? To not change rules mid-season and thus screw over the people who played under that rule earlier?
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On May 01 2013 19:27 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 19:24 Gevna wrote:
So for the sake of the rule we should forget any common sense and sabotage a match. This sounds really smart. Anyway most of the comments in this topic reminds me this racist idea "they come to steal our jobs and money".
"They are stealing our WCS slots, so now we will lose all logic and make decision based on bitterness".
They aren't stealing anyones slots. It's just they aren't honoring the ruling by the tournament admin. Bottom line is, if they wish to play in WCS NA, then they have to play as the WCS NA admins choose.
I'm pretty sure I got it, they have to play according to the rules. And this is exactly why there is a thread right now, what do you do in a case where the rule is stupid as fuck ? Do you use common sense ? Or do you just blindly apply an absurd rule (in this particular case)?
This is exactly the same thing which happened to Comm, but well Comm is chinese not korean, so by magic the community was against the blind execution of a rule...
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On May 01 2013 19:21 MasterReY wrote:
Its an NA tournament and it is a rule that all games are played on NA.
That should be clear to everyone.
IF you join the tournament you accept the rules.
You should totally NOT complain about it afterwards.
No, it's an Americas tournament with the finals to be played offline in NA and open to anyone.
It's not an NA tournament.
If the rules are bad, and punish people because Blizzard decided to only run 3 WCS tournaments (punishing people who are in SEA or Taiwan etc), then the rules should be changed.
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Just another stupid move by mlg
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On May 01 2013 19:21 MasterReY wrote:
Its an NA tournament and it is a rule that all games are played on NA.
That should be clear to everyone.
IF you join the tournament you accept the rules.
You should totally NOT complain about it afterwards.
On May 01 2013 10:58 Empirimancer wrote:
Rules are made by people. People are supposed to be intelligent enough to know when the rules should apply.
Fix the rules when they are wrong, it's not like they are set in stone.
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Can someone please tell me what you do if when you change the rule, Apocalypse demands a rematch with Nestea on KR server?
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On May 01 2013 19:30 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 19:29 Oktyabr wrote:On May 01 2013 19:27 Nekovivie wrote:On May 01 2013 19:24 Gevna wrote:
So for the sake of the rule we should forget any common sense and sabotage a match. This sounds really smart. Anyway most of the comments in this topic reminds me this racist idea "they come to steal our jobs and money".
"They are stealing our WCS slots, so now we will lose all logic and make decision based on bitterness".
They aren't stealing anyones slots. It's just they aren't honoring the ruling by the tournament admin. Bottom line is, if they wish to play in WCS NA, then they have to play as the WCS NA admins choose. But obviously everyone already knows that the admin's decision is final; they're debating if this decision makes any fucking sense at all. Which decision? To not change rules mid-season and thus screw over the people who played under that rule earlier?
Who is it screwing over? Nestea? Apocalypse? What player would actually prefer to play with more lag, even if the opponent has to do the same? What's the problem if both players agree to playing on a different server?
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On May 01 2013 19:32 Gevna wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 19:27 Nekovivie wrote:On May 01 2013 19:24 Gevna wrote:
So for the sake of the rule we should forget any common sense and sabotage a match. This sounds really smart. Anyway most of the comments in this topic reminds me this racist idea "they come to steal our jobs and money".
"They are stealing our WCS slots, so now we will lose all logic and make decision based on bitterness".
They aren't stealing anyones slots. It's just they aren't honoring the ruling by the tournament admin. Bottom line is, if they wish to play in WCS NA, then they have to play as the WCS NA admins choose. I'm pretty sure I got it, they have to play according to the rules. And this is exactly why there is a thread right now, what do you do in a case where the rule is stupid as fuck ? Do you use common sense ? Or do you just blindly apply an absurd rule (in this particular case)? This is exactly the same thing which happened to Comm, but well Comm is chinese not korean, so by magic the community was against the blind execution of a rule...
Where is the stupidity in wanting to play an american tournament on the american server? I'm not seeing it. Not to mention the same rule applies to everyone, be they from Korea, Australia or Timbuktu.
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You say "We're stupid and messed up. We're sorry. We will do it better next time."
Same thing MLG does every time they mess up and screw people over.
MLG whenever they make bad decisions (which is regularly) don't do anything to make things right, so why should they now?
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On May 01 2013 19:34 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 19:23 yrt123 wrote:On May 01 2013 19:02 Sated wrote:On May 01 2013 18:52 yrt123 wrote:On May 01 2013 18:29 Sated wrote:On May 01 2013 18:25 Thor.Rush wrote:
Blizzard doesn't want NA to be purely NA players, or EU to be purely EU players, so everyone get a grip.
Major and Hero might as well play each other on the korea server. There's no legitimate reason not to unless you're totally inflexible, stubborn go-by-the-book loser. Even if they play on KR, the casters and admins still have to log from NA to KR. This will still cause lag, so nothing really changes. Why don't people see this? Sure, I saw someone say earlier that one caster < two players, but there won't always be a single caster involved: If this was a case were the casters had to log from EU to KR then the number of casters would significantly outweigh the number of players, because WCS EU is broadcast in a multitude of different languages. By enforcing a strict rule, WCS are making sure that there is no confusion and no room for confusion. That is a good thing. EDIT: On May 01 2013 18:28 Dracid wrote:On May 01 2013 18:17 Sated wrote:On May 01 2013 18:15 Dracid wrote:On May 01 2013 18:09 Sated wrote:On May 01 2013 18:04 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
[quote]
It really goes to show how emotional, irrational and ultimately ignorant most of the lay men are in this scene. Once again, "DEY TOOK ER JERBS" mentality shining through. People are bitter at the situation for the right reasons, but they're projecting it onto the wrong people.
So I say to them:
Blame Blizzard/MLG. Don't blame the players. They're the ones working their ass off 8-12 hrs a day for your enjoyment, you entitled, ignorant pricks. It's nothing to do with, "DEY TOOK ER JERBS". The players knew that they'd likely have to play on NA throughout this tournament and signed up anyway. Complaining about this after choosing to sign up is incredibly silly. For example, the Champion's League final is in England this year, but it will (likely) be contested by two German teams. You don't see them complaining that the final isn't in Germany because it would be easier for them to get to or whatever else... Yet nobody's complaining that players will have to fly to the US for the offline portions of the tournament. Clearly the point went over your head. It's the American portion of the qualifiers, it should be held on NA. Anyone wanting to play in the tournament should either move to NA, or deal with the consequences of having to play on NA. If you don't want to play with lag, play in the tournament associated with your own region. Players should be glad they're not forced to relocate, like players are if they want to try to qualify for WCS KR. The point where you compared soccer, a physical sport, to a game played over the internet? Sigh... It was a very basic and facetious comparison, nor was it the point. The point is above, "The players knew that they'd likely have to play on NA throughout this tournament and signed up anyway. Complaining about this after choosing to sign up is incredibly silly." If you're going to pick up on what was clearly an illustrative comparison instead of addressing the point at hand then you clearly have nothing to offer. Also, it is "football", not "soccer". While I'm neutral on the matter I have to disagree number of casters outweight players. WCS AM is casted by 2 dudes from MLG. There is only one stream. The "lag" they experience is just the delay due to latency which will not affect caster that much but will affect players alot. A caster arriving a second late to a battle is still gonna be able to catch most of the action. Players' actions late by a second can be the difference between losing or winning. I am sure the lag is not so intolerable. I mean you got guys playing to EU from Korea.. NA has better ping. Either way, like I said, whether they play on KR or NA I'm fine with it. Although "casters will lag" shouldn't be excuse to not play on KR cuz thats bull imo Also I though Blizz stopped multi language community streams and only allows live WCS content to be streamed on official channel after the EU qualis? Am I wrong? sorry I don't really follow WCS EU live it starts at midnight for me. To your second point, I would like to point out that other than the 32 players already in Code S for this season in Korea, the rest had 0 chance to compete in this first season of WCS. 0. No chance. Unless they played in other WCS Region. You may not like the fact that they are playing in AM/EU WCS but if anyone was in their situation they would do the same so long as your team could support you financially to fly you over for the LAN(offline) part. Blame Blizzard for announcing this WCS format out of the blue, not the players. If the casters are lagging then the players will also lag. Whether you play from KR to NA or cast from NA to KR, there will likely be latency involved. By enforcing a strict rule, Blizzard are making sure that there is no confusion on this matter, which makes it much easier for the casters and the admins to organise the games they have to cast. WCS EU is broadcast in multiple languages. German, Russian, Spanish and Italian were all in the sidebar alongside the English stream yesterday. In some of yesterdays games, casters were causing lag for the players and had to leave the game, and that was EU casters in an EU game. Imagine if all those EU casters had to go onto the KR server because two WCS EU players happened to be situated in KR? That would be madness. Again, having a strict rule ensures that there is no confusion on this matter, which makes everything easier. I don't mind players from KR competing in the American or European WCS tournaments. It makes for good storylines. Throughout the EU qualifiers, one of the major storylines was whether or not players could "keep out" the invading Koreans, and that was very entertaining. I just think that players who choose to play in other regions have to accept that they're going to be playing cross-server and take that into account, either by relocating to the region that they want to play in or by dealing with the lag that occurs. I understand that there will be latency involved. However, it is not so much that it should be affecting the game badly. If it is, it is no longer the fault of the location of server but due to the low quality of equipment that is being used(KR/CN guys can play on Europe. If they are lagging so badly there will be 0 KR in WCS EU except those staying in EU and players like Hyun would never have won so many weekly EU tournaments). That is why I said caster lag is not a viable excuse. I don't have any problem with all WCS AM games played on NA server. Good to know WCS EU still broadcast in multiple languages. One of the things I like about EU competitions. You're actually very wrong about the amount of lag involved. Several KR and CN players commented during the EU qualifiers about how they were having to play with seconds worth of latency, but they were willing to do this for a chance to qualify (they weren't complaining; they were simply pointing out that it was the case. I don't want to make it sound like they were whining).
Yes I know its seconds worth of latency BUT so long as the latency is not causing the game to be paused(the lag pause thingy where you can drop the lagging player) or getting people disconnected, it is fine imo. Thats what I'm saying. Anyways lets wrap this up between you and I. We both agree nothing wrong with games being played on NA server. TADA
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On May 01 2013 19:36 Dracid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 19:30 sc2superfan101 wrote:On May 01 2013 19:29 Oktyabr wrote:On May 01 2013 19:27 Nekovivie wrote:On May 01 2013 19:24 Gevna wrote:
So for the sake of the rule we should forget any common sense and sabotage a match. This sounds really smart. Anyway most of the comments in this topic reminds me this racist idea "they come to steal our jobs and money".
"They are stealing our WCS slots, so now we will lose all logic and make decision based on bitterness".
They aren't stealing anyones slots. It's just they aren't honoring the ruling by the tournament admin. Bottom line is, if they wish to play in WCS NA, then they have to play as the WCS NA admins choose. But obviously everyone already knows that the admin's decision is final; they're debating if this decision makes any fucking sense at all. Which decision? To not change rules mid-season and thus screw over the people who played under that rule earlier? Who is it screwing over? Nestea? Apocalypse? What player would actually prefer to play with more lag, even if the opponent has to do the same? What's the problem if both players agree to playing on a different server?
So when Apocalypse demands a rematch, what then?
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On May 01 2013 19:36 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please tell me what you do if when you change the rule, Apocalypse demands a rematch with Nestea on KR server?
There is no point in trying to talk sense into them. Once they've grabbed the pitchforks and torches, all logic will fail :-/
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On May 01 2013 19:36 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please tell me what you do if when you change the rule, Apocalypse demands a rematch with Nestea on KR server?
I don't think he would bother. He got through... -.- if he demands and lose again, then lose to minigun he'd be in deep shit LOL
Edit: Also if the rule is changed such that if and only if both players agree to play on a specific server, Nestea can simply deny to play on KR. No rematch for Apoc either way
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On May 01 2013 19:40 yrt123 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 19:36 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please tell me what you do if when you change the rule, Apocalypse demands a rematch with Nestea on KR server? I don't think he would bother. He got through... -.- if he demands and lose again, then lose to minigun he'd be in deep shit LOL
But let's say that he does. And let's say he wins this time. What about Minigun? What about Fenix who then claims that he would have played better if he knew it was Nestea he might be facing? Where does it end?
edit: are Ro16 groups randomized, or will their be group selections like in GSL?
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So if the korean domination at WCS NA continues you guys would be ok to have 80% of the "WCS NA" played on the korean server?
Sooner or later (probably verrrrry soon) guys would be bitching/flaming that there is no WCS NA and there are 2 WCS Korea, GOMTV wouldn't be pleased either.
I agree that the quality of these games will suffer, but Major could have signed up for korea if that is his biggest concern.
Also i find the OP rather inflammatory...
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On May 01 2013 19:27 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 18:15 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 01 2013 18:10 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 18:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 01 2013 18:04 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 17:59 Grovbolle wrote:
I like how every mod/admin/red thinks this is the most horrible idea ever, and a lot of regular forum posters thinks it's fine because HerO/MajOr choose the region, and as such should be prepared to face the consequences. I am both for and against. Against because of the obvious lag for both players, delivering sub-par games.
For because there has to be some form of downside to not living in the region you are competing in. It really goes to show how emotional, irrational and ultimately ignorant most of the lay men are in this scene. Once again, "DEY TOOK ER JERBS" mentality shining through. People are bitter at the situation for the right reasons, but they're projecting it onto the wrong people. So I say to them: Blame Blizzard/MLG. Don't blame the players. They're the ones working their ass off 8-12 hrs a day for your enjoyment, you entitled, ignorant pricks. People do blame Blizzard but it's still reasonably that we would want to Koreans and Europeans to lose. That's good. Cheer for your favourite players, cheer for goswser or Minigun or KiLLeR or your favourite player from the American continent or even all of them! But at the same time, realize how fucking pathetic and petty it sounds to say "nyar serves them right to get screwed over for coming here and qualifying for a tournament that they had every single right to compete in, according to its rules". People need to stop acting like the players have any amount of blame in this ungodly fucking debacle, all they're doing is their job, playing the game that we are supposed to watch and enjoy, and not act like ungrateful asshats. ALL of your complaints should be directed at Blizzard, maybe if our voices as a community are loud enough they'll stop rolling in their fat wads of WoW cash and start actually doing things right. On May 01 2013 18:12 Dracid wrote:On May 01 2013 18:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 01 2013 18:04 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 17:59 Grovbolle wrote:
I like how every mod/admin/red thinks this is the most horrible idea ever, and a lot of regular forum posters thinks it's fine because HerO/MajOr choose the region, and as such should be prepared to face the consequences. I am both for and against. Against because of the obvious lag for both players, delivering sub-par games.
For because there has to be some form of downside to not living in the region you are competing in. It really goes to show how emotional, irrational and ultimately ignorant most of the lay men are in this scene. Once again, "DEY TOOK ER JERBS" mentality shining through. People are bitter at the situation for the right reasons, but they're projecting it onto the wrong people. So I say to them: Blame Blizzard/MLG. Don't blame the players. They're the ones working their ass off 8-12 hrs a day for your enjoyment, you entitled, ignorant pricks. People do blame Blizzard but it's still reasonably that we would want to Koreans and Europeans to lose. This decision does absolutely nothing to make Koreans and Europeans lose. Nobody in this thread is saying that NA vs KR should be played on anything other than the NA server. This applies to KR vs KR matches only. Europeans and Koreans who don't live in America shouldn't be allowed to play in the first place, so anything which makes it more awkward/unpleasant for them to play in it is a good thing in my book. Are you mentally challenged? Did you seriously manage not to comprehended what I posted? Why should the players have to suffer for Blizzard's poor decision-making?
While I think it is dumb that two players in Korea can't play on the Korean server for their games, I think it is dumber that Koreans were even allowed in WCS America. You should have to reside in the Americas to play in WCS America.
That is what has people bitter, and the choices the players made on what server they wanted to play on was their own. Blizzard never should have allowed the choice, but since they did, the blame should be put on the players as they knew the rules when they signed up.
It is like if a bunch of NASCAR Sprint Cup Series drivers signed up in the NASCAR Truck Series for a race and happened to be the only participants, so they lobbied for the race to held with their stock cars instead of trucks using the logic that it would lead to a better race. That logic doesn't work there, and it shouldn't here! They signed up to drive trucks, so they have to drive trucks, even it makes for a race that isn't as enjoyable.
They signed up to play on the American server, so they have to play on the America server. No one forced them to sign up for WCS America, they could have played in WCS Korea.
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On May 01 2013 19:36 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 19:32 Gevna wrote:On May 01 2013 19:27 Nekovivie wrote:On May 01 2013 19:24 Gevna wrote:
So for the sake of the rule we should forget any common sense and sabotage a match. This sounds really smart. Anyway most of the comments in this topic reminds me this racist idea "they come to steal our jobs and money".
"They are stealing our WCS slots, so now we will lose all logic and make decision based on bitterness".
They aren't stealing anyones slots. It's just they aren't honoring the ruling by the tournament admin. Bottom line is, if they wish to play in WCS NA, then they have to play as the WCS NA admins choose. I'm pretty sure I got it, they have to play according to the rules. And this is exactly why there is a thread right now, what do you do in a case where the rule is stupid as fuck ? Do you use common sense ? Or do you just blindly apply an absurd rule (in this particular case)? This is exactly the same thing which happened to Comm, but well Comm is chinese not korean, so by magic the community was against the blind execution of a rule... Where is the stupidity in wanting to play an american tournament on the american server? I'm not seeing it. Not to mention the same rule applies to everyone, be they from Korea, Australia or Timbuktu.
No help to you sir then... how can you not see stupidity in forcing 2 players to play on NA server if they are BOTH form KR and have a possibility to play on KR server. Its not like they have to do shit tone of stuff or idk what... they just wanna switch a server.
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EPT
