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Given that there is a potential for other non-Americas players in theory in the long run to face each other.
And given that Blizzard have not provided them with their own tournament, in the event that BOTH players are from a different region which lacks its own tournament, would it be acceptable for them to play on their home server instead of NA?
Yes or No.
Bear in mind this is people from regions who have been otherwise excluded from WCS, and would apply only where both players resided in the same region outside the Americas, not for SEA vs NA or Taiwan vs NA.
Poll: Would it be OK for two SEA/Taiwan players to play on their home serverYes, I would be fine with that (36) 54% No, they should play on NA (31) 46% 67 total votes Your vote: Would it be OK for two SEA/Taiwan players to play on their home server (Vote): Yes, I would be fine with that
(Vote): No, they should play on NA
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On May 01 2013 18:04 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 17:59 Grovbolle wrote:
I like how every mod/admin/red thinks this is the most horrible idea ever, and a lot of regular forum posters thinks it's fine because HerO/MajOr choose the region, and as such should be prepared to face the consequences. I am both for and against. Against because of the obvious lag for both players, delivering sub-par games.
For because there has to be some form of downside to not living in the region you are competing in. Don't blame the players. They're the ones working their ass off 8-12 hrs a day for your enjoyment, you entitled, ignorant pricks.
I agree that we shouldn't hate on players, but let's be clear about one thing: they are not working for my enjoyment. They are working for money. Nothing wrong with it, I work for money too, but don't act like the players are any different from the guy who flips burgers at McDonalds in that respect.
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On May 01 2013 19:01 fleeze wrote:
the bias against a fair competition is pretty heavy in this thread.
there is no objective reason to not play this match on KR, if both players agree.to it. it's not like they are forcing an NA player to play on KR.
but those comments.... wow TL, that was unexpected. i always thought a fair competition is on everyones top priority list.
I think the comments are reflective of the fact that people would prefer the qualifiers to be locked by region. The idea that Koreans, playing from Korean, would overrun the American and European players is revolting to a lot of people including me. And this certainly won't be the only time that two people play each other in Korea and will have to play on the America server.
The fact that two people in Korea are duking it out in WCS America is more ridiculous than the fact they are forced to play on NA.
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I can't see how MajOr is Korean.
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Well, you gotta respect MLG´s authoretahhhhhh
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On May 01 2013 18:04 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 17:59 Grovbolle wrote:
I like how every mod/admin/red thinks this is the most horrible idea ever, and a lot of regular forum posters thinks it's fine because HerO/MajOr choose the region, and as such should be prepared to face the consequences. I am both for and against. Against because of the obvious lag for both players, delivering sub-par games.
For because there has to be some form of downside to not living in the region you are competing in. It really goes to show how emotional, irrational and ultimately ignorant most of the lay men are in this scene. Once again, "DEY TOOK ER JERBS" mentality shining through. People are bitter at the situation for the right reasons, but they're projecting it onto the wrong people. So I say to them: Blame Blizzard/MLG. Don't blame the players. They're the ones working their ass off 8-12 hrs a day for your enjoyment, you entitled, ignorant pricks.
No, they're working 8-12 hours a day because it's their career choice. Not for 'our enjoyment'. They're in it to win money, as all professional gamers are.
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Really bad decision. If both are in KR and playing on KR server would provide the best play, I don't see the problem with them playing on KR server. This seems like a really bad decision and rule, but leave it to Blizzard to screw things up with their crap.
Tournaments before were way better and there was not this crap to deal with. But again, leave it to Blizzard to screw things up. (do you really want chat channels?)
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Lol all people defending blizz and mlg. Really? It makes no sense to force them to play on NA servers if they both live in KR... its not like they have to move 10000 miles away and do shit ton of stuff. They just wanna switch a freakin server for better games.
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On May 01 2013 19:01 fleeze wrote:
the bias against a fair competition is pretty heavy in this thread.
there is no objective reason to not play this match on KR, if both players agree.to it. it's not like they are forcing an NA player to play on KR.
but those comments.... wow TL, that was unexpected. i always thought a fair competition is on everyones top priority list.
You know in fair play they have laws against monopolies right. Gotta allow the small firms to thrive too.
I'm not saying I fully agree with this move, it's just that I can see both sides of the argument, so I'm kinda on the fence.
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On May 01 2013 19:12 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 19:01 fleeze wrote:
the bias against a fair competition is pretty heavy in this thread.
there is no objective reason to not play this match on KR, if both players agree.to it. it's not like they are forcing an NA player to play on KR.
but those comments.... wow TL, that was unexpected. i always thought a fair competition is on everyones top priority list. I think the comments are reflective of the fact that people would prefer the qualifiers to be locked by region. The idea that Koreans, playing from Korean, would overrun the American and European players is revolting to a lot of people including me. The fact that two Koreans are duking it out in WCS America is more ridiculous than the fact they are forced to play on NA.
yeah, i think so too. i just can't understand those people mixing too totally different topics.
it's only about fairness for participants, no matter where they are from.
the poll is a bit flawed, major is a NA resident currently living in KR and should belong to WCS NA, even if you prefer to leave out koreans. so it doesn't only affect matches of koreans against koreans, but also every foreigner training in KR. and this is bullshit.
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On May 01 2013 18:54 Thor.Rush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 18:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 01 2013 18:34 oBlade wrote:On May 01 2013 18:22 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 01 2013 18:16 Dodgin wrote:On May 01 2013 18:15 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 01 2013 18:10 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 18:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 01 2013 18:04 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 17:59 Grovbolle wrote:
I like how every mod/admin/red thinks this is the most horrible idea ever, and a lot of regular forum posters thinks it's fine because HerO/MajOr choose the region, and as such should be prepared to face the consequences. I am both for and against. Against because of the obvious lag for both players, delivering sub-par games.
For because there has to be some form of downside to not living in the region you are competing in. It really goes to show how emotional, irrational and ultimately ignorant most of the lay men are in this scene. Once again, "DEY TOOK ER JERBS" mentality shining through. People are bitter at the situation for the right reasons, but they're projecting it onto the wrong people. So I say to them: Blame Blizzard/MLG. Don't blame the players. They're the ones working their ass off 8-12 hrs a day for your enjoyment, you entitled, ignorant pricks. People do blame Blizzard but it's still reasonably that we would want to Koreans and Europeans to lose. That's good. Cheer for your favourite players, cheer for goswser or Minigun or KiLLeR or your favourite player from the American continent or even all of them! But at the same time, realize how fucking pathetic and petty it sounds to say "nyar serves them right to get screwed over for coming here and qualifying for a tournament that they had every single right to compete in, according to its rules". People need to stop acting like the players have any amount of blame in this ungodly fucking debacle, all they're doing is their job, playing the game that we are supposed to watch and enjoy, and not act like ungrateful asshats. ALL of your complaints should be directed at Blizzard, maybe if our voices as a community are loud enough they'll stop rolling in their fat wads of WoW cash and start actually doing things right. On May 01 2013 18:12 Dracid wrote:On May 01 2013 18:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 01 2013 18:04 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 17:59 Grovbolle wrote:
I like how every mod/admin/red thinks this is the most horrible idea ever, and a lot of regular forum posters thinks it's fine because HerO/MajOr choose the region, and as such should be prepared to face the consequences. I am both for and against. Against because of the obvious lag for both players, delivering sub-par games.
For because there has to be some form of downside to not living in the region you are competing in. It really goes to show how emotional, irrational and ultimately ignorant most of the lay men are in this scene. Once again, "DEY TOOK ER JERBS" mentality shining through. People are bitter at the situation for the right reasons, but they're projecting it onto the wrong people. So I say to them: Blame Blizzard/MLG. Don't blame the players. They're the ones working their ass off 8-12 hrs a day for your enjoyment, you entitled, ignorant pricks. People do blame Blizzard but it's still reasonably that we would want to Koreans and Europeans to lose. This decision does absolutely nothing to make Koreans and Europeans lose. Nobody in this thread is saying that NA vs KR should be played on anything other than the NA server. This applies to KR vs KR matches only. Europeans and Koreans who don't live in America shouldn't be allowed to play in the first place, so anything which makes it more awkward/unpleasant for them to play in it is a good thing in my book. What about NA/SA region players living abroad? Surely since they're not playing from NA and not laddering on the NA server they're not contributing to the advancement of their region, and thus should be punished in the same way? Do you agree with that? I'm fine with SEA, China and Africans playing wherever because they don't have a league. Although ideally in future China and SEA would have a league. That's charitable of you, but in fact all the regions are open to everyone globally. So I don't see why anyone should have a problem with people playing in open tournaments that they're allowed to play in. Luckily 95% of people think you're wrong and Blizzard will adjust to that in time. Actually you are wrong because Blizzard has unlocked regions and made WCS the way they want it to be. They want to 'bring the world together', and nothing is going to stop their agenda :D I haven't decided whether I agree with it or not, but that's the way it is. Blizzard has reasons for believing it will make SC2 more successful in the long run.
Nah, Blizzard will backtrack on this soon enough. They can't stand against community opinion for long.
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While I agree that it would be better, if both played on Korea Server, it feels like we're just nitpicking at MLG atm.
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Its an NA tournament and it is a rule that all games are played on NA.
That should be clear to everyone.
IF you join the tournament you accept the rules.
You should totally NOT complain about it afterwards.
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To me this really seems like a non-issue. It would be bad and horribly inadvisable to change the rule mid-season. Most people have recognized that. Last night, Nestea and Apocalypse played against each other. I assume they played on NA server. If you change the rule now, what stops Apocalypse from demanding a rematch to be played on KR server? And of course Nestea would say no because he won, but would he have said no if the rule was different to begin with? How would it be fair to Apocalypse to say that the rule stands for him, but is different now? So let's say you give him the rematch, and Apocalypse wins this time. Now Minigun says "Woah, I would've beaten Nestea if I played him! I need a rematch between me and Nestea!" That's why you don't change rules mid-season unless you have a damn good reason. Because it is unfair to all those who played under the old rule.
Now if we accept that the rule shouldn't be changed mid-season, that leaves next season. But we don't even know how next season is going to work anyway. They might change the rules to make this rule irrelevant: all rounds played offline. Until we have some idea as to what the rules will be for next season, we can't really make judgement calls on what rules need to be changed and what don't.
All we're left with is the question of whether the rule is good in the first place or not, which is all just a matter of opinion. I think it's a fine rule, not good but not really bad either. It makes sense to a certain degree: all games played on one server leaves out all kinds of bickering (ex: EU player wants to play on EU but his KR opponent wants to play on KR, neither wants to play on NA, etc.), and it ensures an even playing field (everyone plays on the same server with the same disadvantages/advantages as anyone else). You could argue that it's inconvenient, but that's not a very strong argument against the rule. It works, and I suppose if you feel that way than from your point of view the rule is bad, but still, that's not very important. At that point it just turns into a "yes!" "no!" argument with no real end because it's like arguing if chocolate or vanilla ice cream is better.
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During years we've been screaming for LAN as lag affects the quality of the game, but in this case we're fine with both of them playing on NA while living in SK ?
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On May 01 2013 19:02 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 18:52 yrt123 wrote:On May 01 2013 18:29 Sated wrote:On May 01 2013 18:25 Thor.Rush wrote:
Blizzard doesn't want NA to be purely NA players, or EU to be purely EU players, so everyone get a grip.
Major and Hero might as well play each other on the korea server. There's no legitimate reason not to unless you're totally inflexible, stubborn go-by-the-book loser. Even if they play on KR, the casters and admins still have to log from NA to KR. This will still cause lag, so nothing really changes. Why don't people see this? Sure, I saw someone say earlier that one caster < two players, but there won't always be a single caster involved: If this was a case were the casters had to log from EU to KR then the number of casters would significantly outweigh the number of players, because WCS EU is broadcast in a multitude of different languages. By enforcing a strict rule, WCS are making sure that there is no confusion and no room for confusion. That is a good thing. EDIT: On May 01 2013 18:28 Dracid wrote:On May 01 2013 18:17 Sated wrote:On May 01 2013 18:15 Dracid wrote:On May 01 2013 18:09 Sated wrote:On May 01 2013 18:04 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 17:59 Grovbolle wrote:
I like how every mod/admin/red thinks this is the most horrible idea ever, and a lot of regular forum posters thinks it's fine because HerO/MajOr choose the region, and as such should be prepared to face the consequences. I am both for and against. Against because of the obvious lag for both players, delivering sub-par games.
For because there has to be some form of downside to not living in the region you are competing in. It really goes to show how emotional, irrational and ultimately ignorant most of the lay men are in this scene. Once again, "DEY TOOK ER JERBS" mentality shining through. People are bitter at the situation for the right reasons, but they're projecting it onto the wrong people. So I say to them: Blame Blizzard/MLG. Don't blame the players. They're the ones working their ass off 8-12 hrs a day for your enjoyment, you entitled, ignorant pricks. It's nothing to do with, "DEY TOOK ER JERBS". The players knew that they'd likely have to play on NA throughout this tournament and signed up anyway. Complaining about this after choosing to sign up is incredibly silly. For example, the Champion's League final is in England this year, but it will (likely) be contested by two German teams. You don't see them complaining that the final isn't in Germany because it would be easier for them to get to or whatever else... Yet nobody's complaining that players will have to fly to the US for the offline portions of the tournament. Clearly the point went over your head. It's the American portion of the qualifiers, it should be held on NA. Anyone wanting to play in the tournament should either move to NA, or deal with the consequences of having to play on NA. If you don't want to play with lag, play in the tournament associated with your own region. Players should be glad they're not forced to relocate, like players are if they want to try to qualify for WCS KR. The point where you compared soccer, a physical sport, to a game played over the internet? Sigh... It was a very basic and facetious comparison, nor was it the point. The point is above, "The players knew that they'd likely have to play on NA throughout this tournament and signed up anyway. Complaining about this after choosing to sign up is incredibly silly." If you're going to pick up on what was clearly an illustrative comparison instead of addressing the point at hand then you clearly have nothing to offer. Also, it is "football", not "soccer". While I'm neutral on the matter I have to disagree number of casters outweight players. WCS AM is casted by 2 dudes from MLG. There is only one stream. The "lag" they experience is just the delay due to latency which will not affect caster that much but will affect players alot. A caster arriving a second late to a battle is still gonna be able to catch most of the action. Players' actions late by a second can be the difference between losing or winning. I am sure the lag is not so intolerable. I mean you got guys playing to EU from Korea.. NA has better ping. Either way, like I said, whether they play on KR or NA I'm fine with it. Although "casters will lag" shouldn't be excuse to not play on KR cuz thats bull imo Also I though Blizz stopped multi language community streams and only allows live WCS content to be streamed on official channel after the EU qualis? Am I wrong? sorry I don't really follow WCS EU live it starts at midnight for me. To your second point, I would like to point out that other than the 32 players already in Code S for this season in Korea, the rest had 0 chance to compete in this first season of WCS. 0. No chance. Unless they played in other WCS Region. You may not like the fact that they are playing in AM/EU WCS but if anyone was in their situation they would do the same so long as your team could support you financially to fly you over for the LAN(offline) part. Blame Blizzard for announcing this WCS format out of the blue, not the players. If the casters are lagging then the players will also lag. Whether you play from KR to NA or cast from NA to KR, there will likely be latency involved. By enforcing a strict rule, Blizzard are making sure that there is no confusion on this matter, which makes it much easier for the casters and the admins to organise the games they have to cast. WCS EU is broadcast in multiple languages. German, Russian, Spanish and Italian were all in the sidebar alongside the English stream yesterday. In some of yesterdays games, casters were causing lag for the players and had to leave the game, and that was EU casters in an EU game. Imagine if all those EU casters had to go onto the KR server because two WCS EU players happened to be situated in KR? That would be madness. Again, having a strict rule ensures that there is no confusion on this matter, which makes everything easier. I don't mind players from KR competing in the American or European WCS tournaments. It makes for good storylines. Throughout the EU qualifiers, one of the major storylines was whether or not players could "keep out" the invading Koreans, and that was very entertaining. I just think that players who choose to play in other regions have to accept that they're going to be playing cross-server and take that into account, either by relocating to the region that they want to play in or by dealing with the lag that occurs.
I understand that there will be latency involved. However, it is not so much that it should be affecting the game badly. If it is, it is no longer the fault of the location of server but due to the low quality of equipment that is being used(KR/CN guys can play on Europe. If they are lagging so badly there will be 0 KR in WCS EU except those staying in EU and players like Hyun would never have won so many weekly EU tournaments). That is why I said caster lag is not a viable excuse. I don't have any problem with all WCS AM games played on NA server.
Good to know WCS EU still broadcast in multiple languages. One of the things I like about EU competitions.
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So for the sake of the rule we should forget any common sense and sabotage a match. This sounds really smart. Anyway most of the comments in this topic reminds me this racist idea "they come to steal our jobs and money".
"They are stealing our WCS slots, so now we will lose all logic and make decision based on bitterness".
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On May 01 2013 19:01 fleeze wrote:
the bias against a fair competition is pretty heavy in this thread.
there is no objective reason to not play this match on KR, if both players agree.to it. it's not like they are forcing an NA player to play on KR.
but those comments.... wow TL, that was unexpected. i always thought a fair competition is on everyones top priority list.
cant see any unfairness here...
You sign up at WCS NA, you play at NA.
Why should MLG create a precedent? Next 2 players will come and want to play at europe or change servers after each game to make it "fair"....
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On May 01 2013 18:15 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 18:10 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 18:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 01 2013 18:04 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 17:59 Grovbolle wrote:
I like how every mod/admin/red thinks this is the most horrible idea ever, and a lot of regular forum posters thinks it's fine because HerO/MajOr choose the region, and as such should be prepared to face the consequences. I am both for and against. Against because of the obvious lag for both players, delivering sub-par games.
For because there has to be some form of downside to not living in the region you are competing in. It really goes to show how emotional, irrational and ultimately ignorant most of the lay men are in this scene. Once again, "DEY TOOK ER JERBS" mentality shining through. People are bitter at the situation for the right reasons, but they're projecting it onto the wrong people. So I say to them: Blame Blizzard/MLG. Don't blame the players. They're the ones working their ass off 8-12 hrs a day for your enjoyment, you entitled, ignorant pricks. People do blame Blizzard but it's still reasonably that we would want to Koreans and Europeans to lose. That's good. Cheer for your favourite players, cheer for goswser or Minigun or KiLLeR or your favourite player from the American continent or even all of them! But at the same time, realize how fucking pathetic and petty it sounds to say "nyar serves them right to get screwed over for coming here and qualifying for a tournament that they had every single right to compete in, according to its rules". People need to stop acting like the players have any amount of blame in this ungodly fucking debacle, all they're doing is their job, playing the game that we are supposed to watch and enjoy, and not act like ungrateful asshats. ALL of your complaints should be directed at Blizzard, maybe if our voices as a community are loud enough they'll stop rolling in their fat wads of WoW cash and start actually doing things right. Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 18:12 Dracid wrote:On May 01 2013 18:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 01 2013 18:04 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 01 2013 17:59 Grovbolle wrote:
I like how every mod/admin/red thinks this is the most horrible idea ever, and a lot of regular forum posters thinks it's fine because HerO/MajOr choose the region, and as such should be prepared to face the consequences. I am both for and against. Against because of the obvious lag for both players, delivering sub-par games.
For because there has to be some form of downside to not living in the region you are competing in. It really goes to show how emotional, irrational and ultimately ignorant most of the lay men are in this scene. Once again, "DEY TOOK ER JERBS" mentality shining through. People are bitter at the situation for the right reasons, but they're projecting it onto the wrong people. So I say to them: Blame Blizzard/MLG. Don't blame the players. They're the ones working their ass off 8-12 hrs a day for your enjoyment, you entitled, ignorant pricks. People do blame Blizzard but it's still reasonably that we would want to Koreans and Europeans to lose. This decision does absolutely nothing to make Koreans and Europeans lose. Nobody in this thread is saying that NA vs KR should be played on anything other than the NA server. This applies to KR vs KR matches only. Europeans and Koreans who don't live in America shouldn't be allowed to play in the first place, so anything which makes it more awkward/unpleasant for them to play in it is a good thing in my book.
Are you mentally challenged? Did you seriously manage not to comprehended what I posted? Why should the players have to suffer for Blizzard's poor decision-making?
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On May 01 2013 19:24 Gevna wrote:
So for the sake of the rule we should forget any common sense and sabotage a match. This sounds really smart. Anyway most of the comments in this topic reminds me this racist idea "they come to steal our jobs and money".
"They are stealing our WCS slots, so now we will lose all logic and make decision based on bitterness".
They aren't stealing anyones slots. It's just they aren't honoring the ruling by the tournament admin. Bottom line is, if they wish to play in WCS NA, then they have to play as the WCS NA admins choose.
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EPT
