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On May 01 2013 12:34 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 12:34 Assirra wrote:On May 01 2013 12:32 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 12:22 opterown wrote:
question - if major and hero really had played on NA server instead of KR, how many people really would have noticed, without being told either way? Unlikely anyone would have noticed. However, why do players need to freak out in public about every rule that they disagree with? Do we need to have a weekly drama session over every little rule that doesn't make perfect sense on all levels for each of the WCS leagues? When the rules said, "All matches will be played on NA", was there anything else to understand and does it warrant getting the community all riled up about it? Couldn't this have been escalated internally through MLG, rather than being let out to the public through twitter? When you yell in public you will get noticed more/faster. but it's also pretty bad manners e.g. if your boss tells you something you don't agree with, best to take it up with him personally before parading around haha
Exactly. I don't mind players and teams having complaints about the system, but they all don't need to air every single one in public. Its tiring and unprofessional. If you have a complaint about a rule, escalate it within MLG or have your team do it. It can be way more effective that people think. Everything does not need to be drama filled nonsense.
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On May 01 2013 12:34 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 12:34 Assirra wrote:On May 01 2013 12:32 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 12:22 opterown wrote:
question - if major and hero really had played on NA server instead of KR, how many people really would have noticed, without being told either way? Unlikely anyone would have noticed. However, why do players need to freak out in public about every rule that they disagree with? Do we need to have a weekly drama session over every little rule that doesn't make perfect sense on all levels for each of the WCS leagues? When the rules said, "All matches will be played on NA", was there anything else to understand and does it warrant getting the community all riled up about it? Couldn't this have been escalated internally through MLG, rather than being let out to the public through twitter? When you yell in public you will get noticed more/faster. but it's also pretty bad manners e.g. if your boss tells you something you don't agree with, best to take it up with him personally before parading around haha
It all depends on the situation ofc. For this one yelling in public wouldn't give them nearly as much backfire as compared to having a problem with your boss.
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On May 01 2013 12:38 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 12:36 IcedBacon wrote:On May 01 2013 12:29 TiberiusAk wrote:Note: It's not just MajOr and HerO, it's MajOr, HerO, Axslav and Axletoss (at a minimum). So maybe MLG did it this way because the lag from New York City to KR server is worse than the lag from Korea to NA server. The best reason I can think of for MLG to make this rule is that MLG's two observing PC's are in New York. Observers lagging seems to have an effect on the players too (in an WCS EU match today with Thorzain, both players were complaining about lag from observers).
So, if the quality is going to be ruined by lag whenever there is cross-continent play (even if both players are on the remote continent, but the casters are not), you might as well have the rule that players always play on AM.
If someone has experience with observer lag vs player lag please share your knowledge to help confirm/deny this. Also thank you to the one person that came close to directly addressing this so far: On May 01 2013 12:05 Noobity wrote:
Aren't the NA servers hosted mostly on the west coast? Seems logical to me that the lag from KR and NY be equally iffy than player lag be perfect and observer lag suck.
I live about an hour outside of NYC, I can't do shit on the KR server, lag constantly, and I have an alright connection. If I'm correct in assuming the west coast is where NA servers are located, then it's pretty much in between them, and this is not only a forgivable offense, but in fact the preferred decision for all involved.
<snip> As if delay affects casters. The game always runs smoothly there's just a delay with commands being issued when you're the player. the delay can affect the game too Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 12:37 Hrrrrm wrote:On May 01 2013 12:34 opterown wrote:On May 01 2013 12:34 Assirra wrote:On May 01 2013 12:32 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 12:22 opterown wrote:
question - if major and hero really had played on NA server instead of KR, how many people really would have noticed, without being told either way? Unlikely anyone would have noticed. However, why do players need to freak out in public about every rule that they disagree with? Do we need to have a weekly drama session over every little rule that doesn't make perfect sense on all levels for each of the WCS leagues? When the rules said, "All matches will be played on NA", was there anything else to understand and does it warrant getting the community all riled up about it? Couldn't this have been escalated internally through MLG, rather than being let out to the public through twitter? When you yell in public you will get noticed more/faster. but it's also pretty bad manners e.g. if your boss tells you something you don't agree with, best to take it up with him personally before parading around haha What's the problem if the rules were public anyways right? They are just making sure the public knows that it's affecting matches. he could have worded it better
Yeah I forgot to take that into consideration. I would think that it'd still be smoother for the players if it were on KR though.
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On May 01 2013 11:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 11:48 Dodgin wrote:
I'm actually shocked at how many people are ok with this, if they had played on the KR server and never said anything about it no one would have ever known the difference, it makes absolutely 0 difference in that match other than making it more fair. Online leagues, team leagues especially have always done kr vs kr if both players are in KR. There are also people who get that all the games are to be played on the NA server. Exceptions can be made, but people understand that it isn't required and informing rules is important.
If the rules say two players who live in KR have to play each other on the NA server they're garbage rules and need to be changed, just because it was written as a rule doesn't mean you bow down to it without question.
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This just shows how problematic online tournaments are. I'm sorry for the one-liner, but the tournament organizers make the rules, so they get to make the decisions.
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On May 01 2013 12:38 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 12:36 IcedBacon wrote:On May 01 2013 12:29 TiberiusAk wrote:Note: It's not just MajOr and HerO, it's MajOr, HerO, Axslav and Axletoss (at a minimum). So maybe MLG did it this way because the lag from New York City to KR server is worse than the lag from Korea to NA server. The best reason I can think of for MLG to make this rule is that MLG's two observing PC's are in New York. Observers lagging seems to have an effect on the players too (in an WCS EU match today with Thorzain, both players were complaining about lag from observers).
So, if the quality is going to be ruined by lag whenever there is cross-continent play (even if both players are on the remote continent, but the casters are not), you might as well have the rule that players always play on AM.
If someone has experience with observer lag vs player lag please share your knowledge to help confirm/deny this. Also thank you to the one person that came close to directly addressing this so far: On May 01 2013 12:05 Noobity wrote:
Aren't the NA servers hosted mostly on the west coast? Seems logical to me that the lag from KR and NY be equally iffy than player lag be perfect and observer lag suck.
I live about an hour outside of NYC, I can't do shit on the KR server, lag constantly, and I have an alright connection. If I'm correct in assuming the west coast is where NA servers are located, then it's pretty much in between them, and this is not only a forgivable offense, but in fact the preferred decision for all involved.
<snip> As if delay affects casters. The game always runs smoothly there's just a delay with commands being issued when you're the player. the delay can affect the game too
This. There was a game just this afternoon in WCS EU (referenced in my original post) where a caster's lag was interfering with both players' ability to play the game well.
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On May 01 2013 12:42 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 11:57 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 11:48 Dodgin wrote:
I'm actually shocked at how many people are ok with this, if they had played on the KR server and never said anything about it no one would have ever known the difference, it makes absolutely 0 difference in that match other than making it more fair. Online leagues, team leagues especially have always done kr vs kr if both players are in KR. There are also people who get that all the games are to be played on the NA server. Exceptions can be made, but people understand that it isn't required and informing rules is important. If the rules say two players who live in KR have to play each other on the NA server they're garbage rules and need to be changed, just because it was written as a rule doesn't mean you bow down to it without question.
If the games are going to be casted live, its not going to matter what server they are on, since MLG is in NA. Observers must be connected to the game too.
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They both live in korea, they both should play on servers there... Its not like they play KR vs NA or something... We HAVE NO LAN, so whats the problem with playin on KR client when they BOTH live there???
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On May 01 2013 12:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 12:42 Dodgin wrote:On May 01 2013 11:57 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 11:48 Dodgin wrote:
I'm actually shocked at how many people are ok with this, if they had played on the KR server and never said anything about it no one would have ever known the difference, it makes absolutely 0 difference in that match other than making it more fair. Online leagues, team leagues especially have always done kr vs kr if both players are in KR. There are also people who get that all the games are to be played on the NA server. Exceptions can be made, but people understand that it isn't required and informing rules is important. If the rules say two players who live in KR have to play each other on the NA server they're garbage rules and need to be changed, just because it was written as a rule doesn't mean you bow down to it without question. If the games are going to be casted live, its not going to matter what server they are on, since MLG is in NA. Observers must be connected to the game too.
Global play exists and It's very easy to change your client to the KR server, it only takes a few seconds. If the obs is lagging the game then MLG needs to improve their internet speed.
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On May 01 2013 12:37 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 12:19 NonY wrote:On May 01 2013 12:10 aksfjh wrote:On May 01 2013 12:02 NonY wrote:
Having KR vs KR played on NA isn't an acceptable practice. There are other ways to encourage participants to reside in NA. It seems like a lot of people here are in favor of anything that discourages non-NA residents from playing WCS NA. But the thing is, the enforcement of this particular rule in this particular case is SO bad that it is immune to that argument. This isn't the proper way to do that. Let's get the best games we can out of these players. Not just anything, just sensible rules. By all means, people from Antarctica to Mongolia can enter whatever tournament they want, but if you're not even going to host the games on NA, what's the point of calling it WCS NA? Especially in 2-3 seasons when half of EU and NA become Korean. It's a technicality. I don't give a shit that the geographical location of the game server doesn't match up with the name of the tournament. It's extremely straightforward and obvious that the server that does its job the best should be the one used. I don't know how you can think symbolism is so much more important than a significant difference in latency. You anti-competition types that somehow got interested in professional SC2 are really stretching it with this kind of shit. I want competition more than anything, which means incentives for top players to get out of Korea and into EU and NA on a semi-permanent basis. If pros living outside their region have to suffer every single game instead of only half or 3/4, it gives them and their team incentives to move. If viewers don't want to see "sub-par" games, they will pressure the organizers, teams, and players to make bigger commitments in their regions.
I'm not going to ask Hero to move to fucking America. That's absurd. I would much rather show my derision for organizers who bother to put on such farcical competitions. Why would I pressure the players when I can pressure the organizers much more justifiably/easily?
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On May 01 2013 12:44 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 12:43 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 12:42 Dodgin wrote:On May 01 2013 11:57 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 11:48 Dodgin wrote:
I'm actually shocked at how many people are ok with this, if they had played on the KR server and never said anything about it no one would have ever known the difference, it makes absolutely 0 difference in that match other than making it more fair. Online leagues, team leagues especially have always done kr vs kr if both players are in KR. There are also people who get that all the games are to be played on the NA server. Exceptions can be made, but people understand that it isn't required and informing rules is important. If the rules say two players who live in KR have to play each other on the NA server they're garbage rules and need to be changed, just because it was written as a rule doesn't mean you bow down to it without question. If the games are going to be casted live, its not going to matter what server they are on, since MLG is in NA. Observers must be connected to the game too. Global play exists and It's very easy to change your client to the KR server, it only takes a few seconds. If the obs is lagging the game then MLG needs to improve their internet speed.
That's not how it works, the obs is exactly the same as a player in SC2, so they can lag the game just like a player. MLG is in NY, which is pretty close to me. I have amazing fiber internet and my connection to KR is beyond garbage.
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TLADT24920 Posts
makes perfect sense. They did sign up for WCS NA so play on NA server regardless of their location 
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On May 01 2013 12:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 12:44 Dodgin wrote:On May 01 2013 12:43 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 12:42 Dodgin wrote:On May 01 2013 11:57 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 11:48 Dodgin wrote:
I'm actually shocked at how many people are ok with this, if they had played on the KR server and never said anything about it no one would have ever known the difference, it makes absolutely 0 difference in that match other than making it more fair. Online leagues, team leagues especially have always done kr vs kr if both players are in KR. There are also people who get that all the games are to be played on the NA server. Exceptions can be made, but people understand that it isn't required and informing rules is important. If the rules say two players who live in KR have to play each other on the NA server they're garbage rules and need to be changed, just because it was written as a rule doesn't mean you bow down to it without question. If the games are going to be casted live, its not going to matter what server they are on, since MLG is in NA. Observers must be connected to the game too. Global play exists and It's very easy to change your client to the KR server, it only takes a few seconds. If the obs is lagging the game then MLG needs to improve their internet speed. That's not how it works, the obs is exactly the same as a player in SC2, so they can lag the game just like a player. MLG is in NY, which is pretty close to me. I have amazing fiber internet and my connection to KR is beyond garbage.
The players aren't " lagging " the game though, they just have delay because of the server location. The observer doesn't have to input command like a player does so delay doesn't affect them. It's definitely better than having both players play with delay.
I get that this is being done because of the WCS NA rules (has anyone confirmed that it is actually in the rules? do we even have a rule book?) but It's not ideal at all.
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On May 01 2013 10:53 Grettin wrote:
How surprising.
Seriously...I'm shocked.
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Don't hate the Korean players. Hate Blizzard for setting up WCS the way it is if you wanna hate someone. When Blizz acts like they welcome Koreans into WCS AMERICA with open arms well obviously they are gonna go there, especially considering the fact that they are not in GSL CODE S(if they are they can't compete in other WCS S1 PREMIER) and therefore can't get a shot at WCS Season 1 from Korea, something MC pointed out when Blizz announced this mess. Obviously they will go to other WCS where they get a chance to compete from Season 1 and will for sure face softer competition too.
Sorry for off topic.
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I honestly don't see WCS NA is surviving. Lower quality players, lower quality casters, the majority of the tournament being online (compared to GSL all being offline), money can't just come out of nowhere. Who wants to sponsor NA when all the action is in Korea? Hopefully this ridiculousness will be gone next year and we will be back to how it used to be.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On May 01 2013 12:55 Gorribal wrote:
I honestly don't see WCS NA is surviving. Lower quality players, lower quality casters, the majority of the tournament being online (compared to GSL all being offline), money can't just come out of nowhere. Who wants to sponsor NA when all the action is in Korea? Hopefully this ridiculousness will be gone next year and we will be back to how it used to be.
it's only RO32 that is online (exact same as WCS EU), money mostly comes from blizzard afaik
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On May 01 2013 12:55 Gorribal wrote:
I honestly don't see WCS NA is surviving. Lower quality players, lower quality casters, the majority of the tournament being online (compared to GSL all being offline), money can't just come out of nowhere. Who wants to sponsor NA when all the action is in Korea? Hopefully this ridiculousness will be gone next year and we will be back to how it used to be.
On the last SOTG Cloaken mentioned they want more and more to be off-line which is how it should've been in the first place but better late than never I guess.
And uhh, if you didn't notice, Blizzard is sponsoring NA.
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Has MLG ever allowed players to switch servers before? Has MLG in the past forced players to play on the NA servers? Because it would be unfair for the past players, and then change the rules for Major and HerO.
Also has this ever came up with with WCS EU/KR with with a Blizzard tournament in the past? Because it would be very unfair to past players that had to follow the rules. If the rules were bent in the past, they should allow it, it not, then no.
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I'm all for "principle," and I'm all for a hard residency-based region lock. Also, if I've read this thread correctly (I'm sure I have), everyone seems okay with NA v KR/EU/NA = NA.
But there's a point where you have to accept that Blizzard acts like they want to build NA while at the same time giving Koreans every reason to come through and roflstomp us. That's the one question their Community Manager never really answered when he was bombarded by TotalBiscuit on SOTG last week.
But Koreans shouldn't be penalized because Blizzard is fucktarded and can't figure out if they want to actually create a NA scene or make sure what bones we have left are pulverized into dust. There is no reason KR v KR =/= KR, beyond the idea that the sins of the father are visited upon the son, which is never all that nice.
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EPT
