On May 01 2013 11:45 raf3776 wrote: dont complain about NA if you signed up for NA tourney
This. No real excuse or legitimate complaint. You can cry that they're "hurting esports" all you want, but these damn proxy entrants into WCS have to have "penalties" to encourage players to reside across the world. I don't want WCS Korea 1, 2, and 3, and I'd bet I'm not alone.
Yeah, the penalty is that they have to deal with a latency disadvantage when they face players who actually live in NA. Now tell me what's gained by forcing two players who live in KR to play against each other on NA.
The integrity of the tournament and distinction that it's WCS NA and not WCS Korea Code B.
The integrity of the tournament is positively affected by having the players play a weaker series and having a 9+ page thread on TL complaining about the decision? Are you sure?
I can't control the insatiable entitled idiots on TL that find every moment to complain about anything that Blizzard has a hand in, nor can anybody else. I can only argue that rules are rules, and for SC2 and WCS to remain credible, rules have to be followed.
I think it's a pretty extreme stretch to suggest that the tournament's credibility would be hurt by letting two players who live in Korea play a bo3 on the Korean server. I'd say the current situation is decidedly worse for them.
I don't see why, reading this thread the number of people mad about this decision are in the minority.
Would a thread exist if they had been allowed to play the games out on KR?
If other player have already played matches under the same conditions, would it be ok to make an exception because it now has the communities attention?
On May 01 2013 11:45 raf3776 wrote: dont complain about NA if you signed up for NA tourney
This. No real excuse or legitimate complaint. You can cry that they're "hurting esports" all you want, but these damn proxy entrants into WCS have to have "penalties" to encourage players to reside across the world. I don't want WCS Korea 1, 2, and 3, and I'd bet I'm not alone.
Yeah, the penalty is that they have to deal with a latency disadvantage when they face players who actually live in NA. Now tell me what's gained by forcing two players who live in KR to play against each other on NA.
The integrity of the tournament and distinction that it's WCS NA and not WCS Korea Code B.
The integrity of the tournament is positively affected by having the players play a weaker series and having a 9+ page thread on TL complaining about the decision? Are you sure?
I can't control the insatiable entitled idiots on TL that find every moment to complain about anything that Blizzard has a hand in, nor can anybody else. I can only argue that rules are rules, and for SC2 and WCS to remain credible, rules have to be followed.
I think it's a pretty extreme stretch to suggest that the tournament's credibility would be hurt by letting two players who live in Korea play a bo3 on the Korean server. I'd say the current situation is decidedly worse for them.
I don't see why, reading this thread the number of people mad about this decision are in the minority.
Would a thread exist if they had been allowed to play the games out on KR?
Honestly I think there would be, just from different people complaining. It would be far from the silliest thing someone made a thread about on TL. Honestly I'm fine if they played the games KR vs KR on Korea for this season, I'd like the whole tournament to be based in NA next season but that's a different point.
On May 01 2013 11:02 Waxangel wrote: So you people WANT to watch sub-par games?
by definition when a Code S Korean plays a foreigner not named Naniwa or Stephano the games will be sub par.
hero's not even code s anyway haha
he is actually very capable though. Hero is not someone who shines in teamleagues, the way he plays games (mind games, diverse strats/builds ) fits him more in individual leagues. I'd rather see Hero excel in individual leagues than watch him do well in teamleagues. The fact that bad players like crazy and Shine made it Code S supports my arguement.
On May 01 2013 11:45 raf3776 wrote: dont complain about NA if you signed up for NA tourney
This. No real excuse or legitimate complaint. You can cry that they're "hurting esports" all you want, but these damn proxy entrants into WCS have to have "penalties" to encourage players to reside across the world. I don't want WCS Korea 1, 2, and 3, and I'd bet I'm not alone.
Yeah, the penalty is that they have to deal with a latency disadvantage when they face players who actually live in NA. Now tell me what's gained by forcing two players who live in KR to play against each other on NA.
The integrity of the tournament and distinction that it's WCS NA and not WCS Korea Code B.
The integrity of the tournament is positively affected by having the players play a weaker series and having a 9+ page thread on TL complaining about the decision? Are you sure?
I can't control the insatiable entitled idiots on TL that find every moment to complain about anything that Blizzard has a hand in, nor can anybody else. I can only argue that rules are rules, and for SC2 and WCS to remain credible, rules have to be followed.
I think it's a pretty extreme stretch to suggest that the tournament's credibility would be hurt by letting two players who live in Korea play a bo3 on the Korean server. I'd say the current situation is decidedly worse for them.
It's a matter of precedence. When we move to a more Korean populated tournament, whether it's next round or 3 WCS regionals from now, there needs to be some distinction that each region is actually based in that region.
yeah I agree I mean WCS was announced way back in like November 2012 so players from all across the globe had time to make informed decisions and make travel/arrangement plans so as to live in the actual WCS region.
not like players had like 2 weeks to get together their shit and want to just play with a little less lag in ro32 before the entirely offline ro16s held at MLG in new york
Note: It's not just MajOr and HerO, it's MajOr, HerO, Axslav and Axletoss (at a minimum). So maybe MLG did it this way because the lag from New York City to KR server is worse than the lag from Korea to NA server.
The best reason I can think of for MLG to make this rule is that MLG's two observing PC's are in New York. Observers lagging seems to have an effect on the players too (in an WCS EU match today with Thorzain, both players were complaining about lag from observers).
So, if the quality is going to be ruined by lag whenever there is cross-continent play (even if both players are on the remote continent, but the casters are not), you might as well have the rule that players always play on AM.
If someone has experience with observer lag vs player lag please share your knowledge to help confirm/deny this.
Also thank you to the one person that came close to directly addressing this so far:
On May 01 2013 12:05 Noobity wrote: Aren't the NA servers hosted mostly on the west coast? Seems logical to me that the lag from KR and NY be equally iffy than player lag be perfect and observer lag suck.
I live about an hour outside of NYC, I can't do shit on the KR server, lag constantly, and I have an alright connection. If I'm correct in assuming the west coast is where NA servers are located, then it's pretty much in between them, and this is not only a forgivable offense, but in fact the preferred decision for all involved. <snip>
On May 01 2013 12:22 opterown wrote: question - if major and hero really had played on NA server instead of KR, how many people really would have noticed, without being told either way?
Unlikely anyone would have noticed. However, why do players need to freak out in public about every rule that they disagree with? Do we need to have a weekly drama session over every little rule that doesn't make perfect sense on all levels for each of the WCS leagues? When the rules said, "All matches will be played on NA", was there anything else to understand and does it warrant getting the community all riled up about it? Couldn't this have been escalated internally through MLG, rather than being let out to the public through twitter?
I also thank TiberiusAk for the post above that the NY to KR would be an issue if the games are casted live. There maybe other reasons we are not aware of as well.
While there is logic behind it, if they are both in Korea it will just lower the match for no good reason. If one of them was in America it would be completely valid but here it seems a pointless rule with only a bad side.
Regardless of what MLG stated in its rules, I think each group should have an Admin with knowledge of the game and tournament experience to oversee situations like this. The Admin would have the ability to make a compromise as long as it is a fair decision (eg letting both players play on KR when they both want to)
On May 01 2013 12:22 opterown wrote: question - if major and hero really had played on NA server instead of KR, how many people really would have noticed, without being told either way?
Unlikely anyone would have noticed. However, why do players need to freak out in public about every rule that they disagree with? Do we need to have a weekly drama session over every little rule that doesn't make perfect sense on all levels for each of the WCS leagues? When the rules said, "All matches will be played on NA", was there anything else to understand and does it warrant getting the community all riled up about it? Couldn't this have been escalated internally through MLG, rather than being let out to the public through twitter?
When you yell in public you will get noticed more/faster.
On May 01 2013 12:22 opterown wrote: question - if major and hero really had played on NA server instead of KR, how many people really would have noticed, without being told either way?
might not notice until you have something to compare it to.
I don't mind so much about the rule, but it seems a bit inflexible as Waxangel said. Like really, if this has to happen it means the whole thing needs an organization overhaul on blizzard's end.
On May 01 2013 12:22 opterown wrote: question - if major and hero really had played on NA server instead of KR, how many people really would have noticed, without being told either way?
Unlikely anyone would have noticed. However, why do players need to freak out in public about every rule that they disagree with? Do we need to have a weekly drama session over every little rule that doesn't make perfect sense on all levels for each of the WCS leagues? When the rules said, "All matches will be played on NA", was there anything else to understand and does it warrant getting the community all riled up about it? Couldn't this have been escalated internally through MLG, rather than being let out to the public through twitter?
When you yell in public you will get noticed more/faster.
but it's also pretty bad manners e.g. if your boss tells you something you don't agree with, best to take it up with him personally before parading around haha
It's WCS NA. It's for whoever is better at playing on the NA server. Maybe instead of complaining about playing WCS NA on the NA server, they could play WCS KR on the KR server. It's a deterrent, because it adds uncertainty to the game. I fully support even stronger deterrents against cross region play.
THis. A hundred times this. Hero, in my opinion shouldn't be competeing in WCS NA, nor should many of the koreans. Just stifling the NA scene. (inb4 but NA SUX LOLROFLOMGHAXORS). Making it even MORE difficult for NA players to continue to pursue a professional gaming career, doesn't help the international growth of SC2 at all.
If all NA has to offer is getting their asses completely handed to them by second-rate koreans like stc or dinosaurs like Nestea, then I have no pity for them at all. The games so far are extremely subpar compared to either of the other regions. It is either a complete stomp, or sloppy play that is miserable to watch for all the mistakes being made.
they should just play on kr anyways, fuck it if they get disqualified, they need to stand up for this bullshit. fuck protocol and procedures; they're pros playing at a highly competitive level and the best environment is required and latency is huge on this. tear the organizers apart if they say anything about latency < procedure, it would just mean they have no idea what they're talking about.
On May 01 2013 12:29 TiberiusAk wrote: Note: It's not just MajOr and HerO, it's MajOr, HerO, Axslav and Axletoss (at a minimum). So maybe MLG did it this way because the lag from New York City to KR server is worse than the lag from Korea to NA server.
The best reason I can think of for MLG to make this rule is that MLG's two observing PC's are in New York. Observers lagging seems to have an effect on the players too (in an WCS EU match today with Thorzain, both players were complaining about lag from observers).
So, if the quality is going to be ruined by lag whenever there is cross-continent play (even if both players are on the remote continent, but the casters are not), you might as well have the rule that players always play on AM.
If someone has experience with observer lag vs player lag please share your knowledge to help confirm/deny this.
Also thank you to the one person that came close to directly addressing this so far:
On May 01 2013 12:05 Noobity wrote: Aren't the NA servers hosted mostly on the west coast? Seems logical to me that the lag from KR and NY be equally iffy than player lag be perfect and observer lag suck.
I live about an hour outside of NYC, I can't do shit on the KR server, lag constantly, and I have an alright connection. If I'm correct in assuming the west coast is where NA servers are located, then it's pretty much in between them, and this is not only a forgivable offense, but in fact the preferred decision for all involved. <snip>
As if delay affects casters. The game always runs smoothly there's just a delay with commands being issued when you're the player.
On May 01 2013 12:22 opterown wrote: question - if major and hero really had played on NA server instead of KR, how many people really would have noticed, without being told either way?
Unlikely anyone would have noticed. However, why do players need to freak out in public about every rule that they disagree with? Do we need to have a weekly drama session over every little rule that doesn't make perfect sense on all levels for each of the WCS leagues? When the rules said, "All matches will be played on NA", was there anything else to understand and does it warrant getting the community all riled up about it? Couldn't this have been escalated internally through MLG, rather than being let out to the public through twitter?
When you yell in public you will get noticed more/faster.
but it's also pretty bad manners e.g. if your boss tells you something you don't agree with, best to take it up with him personally before parading around haha
What's the problem if the rules were public anyways right? They are just making sure the public knows that it's affecting matches.
On May 01 2013 12:02 NonY wrote: Having KR vs KR played on NA isn't an acceptable practice. There are other ways to encourage participants to reside in NA. It seems like a lot of people here are in favor of anything that discourages non-NA residents from playing WCS NA. But the thing is, the enforcement of this particular rule in this particular case is SO bad that it is immune to that argument. This isn't the proper way to do that. Let's get the best games we can out of these players.
Not just anything, just sensible rules. By all means, people from Antarctica to Mongolia can enter whatever tournament they want, but if you're not even going to host the games on NA, what's the point of calling it WCS NA? Especially in 2-3 seasons when half of EU and NA become Korean.
It's a technicality. I don't give a shit that the geographical location of the game server doesn't match up with the name of the tournament. It's extremely straightforward and obvious that the server that does its job the best should be the one used. I don't know how you can think symbolism is so much more important than a significant difference in latency. You anti-competition types that somehow got interested in professional SC2 are really stretching it with this kind of shit.
I want competition more than anything, which means incentives for top players to get out of Korea and into EU and NA on a semi-permanent basis. If pros living outside their region have to suffer every single game instead of only half or 3/4, it gives them and their team incentives to move. If viewers don't want to see "sub-par" games, they will pressure the organizers, teams, and players to make bigger commitments in their regions.
On May 01 2013 12:29 TiberiusAk wrote: Note: It's not just MajOr and HerO, it's MajOr, HerO, Axslav and Axletoss (at a minimum). So maybe MLG did it this way because the lag from New York City to KR server is worse than the lag from Korea to NA server.
The best reason I can think of for MLG to make this rule is that MLG's two observing PC's are in New York. Observers lagging seems to have an effect on the players too (in an WCS EU match today with Thorzain, both players were complaining about lag from observers).
So, if the quality is going to be ruined by lag whenever there is cross-continent play (even if both players are on the remote continent, but the casters are not), you might as well have the rule that players always play on AM.
If someone has experience with observer lag vs player lag please share your knowledge to help confirm/deny this.
Also thank you to the one person that came close to directly addressing this so far:
On May 01 2013 12:05 Noobity wrote: Aren't the NA servers hosted mostly on the west coast? Seems logical to me that the lag from KR and NY be equally iffy than player lag be perfect and observer lag suck.
I live about an hour outside of NYC, I can't do shit on the KR server, lag constantly, and I have an alright connection. If I'm correct in assuming the west coast is where NA servers are located, then it's pretty much in between them, and this is not only a forgivable offense, but in fact the preferred decision for all involved.
As if delay affects casters. The game always runs smoothly there's just a delay with commands being issued when you're the player.
On May 01 2013 12:22 opterown wrote: question - if major and hero really had played on NA server instead of KR, how many people really would have noticed, without being told either way?
Unlikely anyone would have noticed. However, why do players need to freak out in public about every rule that they disagree with? Do we need to have a weekly drama session over every little rule that doesn't make perfect sense on all levels for each of the WCS leagues? When the rules said, "All matches will be played on NA", was there anything else to understand and does it warrant getting the community all riled up about it? Couldn't this have been escalated internally through MLG, rather than being let out to the public through twitter?
When you yell in public you will get noticed more/faster.
but it's also pretty bad manners e.g. if your boss tells you something you don't agree with, best to take it up with him personally before parading around haha
What's the problem if the rules were public anyways right? They are just making sure the public knows that it's affecting matches.
EPT
