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On March 27 2013 14:29 DarkenedLite wrote:
Mentioned this in the ITG thread, but just want to reiterate my biggest issue with the more fervent defenders of region-locking. I would just encourage those people to look at it from the spectator perspective. Whether it would legitimately boost their enjoyment as a viewer or not. It seems like the pro-region locking folks tend to view it from the perspective of increased hopefulness that they can improve their personal success as a player before looking at it any other way.
Personally I cheer for Koreans against foreigners because UK players are very rare (we basically have Demuslim, a Protoss who cares more about being e-famous than the game and a few patch zergs) and imo EU/NA players are our natural rivals not people to cheer for.
That said, Sc2 in the west would be way, way bigger and better if the Western players were actually good.
Region locking is exactly what happens in normal sports and imo will improve the local scenes long term.
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I'm into this.. Because everybody will always follow GSL and the korean leagues.. That's where we should get our korean fix 
They are the best and we all love or follow some of them but it's stops being fun when some of them come and always win, it's not even a matter if MVP/MC/Life/DRG comes they will win.. it's more like if "insert random high level korean" comes they win..
I'm into this thing, it's will make things more exciting, it will improve every zone imo!
Koreans are a big part of this sport they will not have MLG's with no korean but they also shouldn't have a MLG with 20 koreans when you have a GSL with 1/2 foreigners..
Don't forget MLG/DH/Nasl etc.. pay for koreans to come but no one pays for foreigners to move to korea.. and they come for a weekend and our players need to commit atleast 3/6 months to have a chance of any result/ practice time!
I would rather have less koreans in foreigner events, make a stronger korean scene with the incorporation of both ESF and Kespa into a single identity and strenghten the ESF teams, proleague+GSTL and OSL+GSL. That will lead to better foreigner teams and way more motivated foreigner teams!
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On March 27 2013 20:47 shell wrote:I'm into this.. Because everybody will always follow GSL and the korean leagues.. That's where we should get our korean fix They are the best and we all love or follow some of them but it's stops being fun when some of them come and always win, it's not even a matter if MVP/MC/Life/DRG comes they will win.. it's more like if "insert random high level korean" comes they win.. I'm into this thing, it's will make things more exciting, it will improve every zone imo! Koreans are a big part of this sport they will not have MLG's with no korean but they also shouldn't have a MLG with 20 koreans when you have a GSL with 1/2 foreigners.. Don't forget MLG/DH/Nasl etc.. pay for koreans to come but no one pays for foreigners to move to korea.. and they come for a weekend and our players need to commit atleast 3/6 months to have a chance of any result/ practice time! I would rather have less koreans in foreigner events, make a stronger korean scene with the incorporation of both ESF and Kespa into a single identity and strenghten the ESF teams, proleague+GSTL and OSL+GSL. That will lead to better foreigner teams and way more motivated foreigner teams!
since when does DH pay for koreans to come? This is totally new for me. And MLG pays for everyone to come. Be it from Korea, Europe, South America or the South Pole....
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opterown
Australia54785 Posts
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On March 27 2013 20:47 shell wrote:I'm into this.. Because everybody will always follow GSL and the korean leagues.. That's where we should get our korean fix They are the best and we all love or follow some of them but it's stops being fun when some of them come and always win, it's not even a matter if MVP/MC/Life/DRG comes they will win.. it's more like if "insert random high level korean" comes they win.. I'm into this thing, it's will make things more exciting, it will improve every zone imo! Koreans are a big part of this sport they will not have MLG's with no korean but they also shouldn't have a MLG with 20 koreans when you have a GSL with 1/2 foreigners.. Don't forget MLG/DH/Nasl etc.. pay for koreans to come but no one pays for foreigners to move to korea.. and they come for a weekend and our players need to commit atleast 3/6 months to have a chance of any result/ practice time! I would rather have less koreans in foreigner events, make a stronger korean scene with the incorporation of both ESF and Kespa into a single identity and strenghten the ESF teams, proleague+GSTL and OSL+GSL. That will lead to better foreigner teams and way more motivated foreigner teams!
yeah... well youre pulling stuff out of your ass... why do you think not many koreans participate in DH apart from koreans on foreign teams? You also stated that mlg pays koreans to come but GSL doest. This is not true, GSL actually pays prize money to all the code s/a participants
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On March 27 2013 20:33 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 14:29 DarkenedLite wrote:
Mentioned this in the ITG thread, but just want to reiterate my biggest issue with the more fervent defenders of region-locking. I would just encourage those people to look at it from the spectator perspective. Whether it would legitimately boost their enjoyment as a viewer or not. It seems like the pro-region locking folks tend to view it from the perspective of increased hopefulness that they can improve their personal success as a player before looking at it any other way. Personally I cheer for Koreans against foreigners because UK players are very rare (we basically have Demuslim, a Protoss who cares more about being e-famous than the game and a few patch zergs) and imo EU/NA players are our natural rivals not people to cheer for. That said, Sc2 in the west would be way, way bigger and better if the Western players were actually good. Region locking is exactly what happens in normal sports and imo will improve the local scenes long term.
Yeah actually, region locking would be pretty solid. I'd love to watch foreigners actually win games
But I ALSO want a NA primetime rebroadcast of GSL, so I can get my Korean fix too. There's SC2, then there's Korean TvT. Just take my money!
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On March 27 2013 22:05 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 20:33 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On March 27 2013 14:29 DarkenedLite wrote:
Mentioned this in the ITG thread, but just want to reiterate my biggest issue with the more fervent defenders of region-locking. I would just encourage those people to look at it from the spectator perspective. Whether it would legitimately boost their enjoyment as a viewer or not. It seems like the pro-region locking folks tend to view it from the perspective of increased hopefulness that they can improve their personal success as a player before looking at it any other way. Personally I cheer for Koreans against foreigners because UK players are very rare (we basically have Demuslim, a Protoss who cares more about being e-famous than the game and a few patch zergs) and imo EU/NA players are our natural rivals not people to cheer for. That said, Sc2 in the west would be way, way bigger and better if the Western players were actually good. Region locking is exactly what happens in normal sports and imo will improve the local scenes long term. Yeah actually, region locking would be pretty solid. I'd love to watch foreigners actually win games But I ALSO want a NA primetime rebroadcast of GSL, so I can get my Korean fix too. There's SC2, then there's Korean TvT. Just take my money!
You can just watch the VoD's if you pay for it...?
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pETYe5D.jpg)
OGN schedule shows that "WCS<GSL>" will be broadcasted on OGN on April 4th !!!
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On March 30 2013 14:18 larse wrote:+ Show Spoiler +OGN schedule shows that "WCS<GSL>" will be broadcasted on OGN on April 4th !!!
Ah, interesting.
A long time ago, there were rumors that OGN wanted to broadcast GSL back during the Open Seasons, and they may have even started prepping some of their commentators for it. Unfortunately, the Blizzard vs KeSPA thing was still going on, so that obviously never came to fruition.
Until now.
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On March 27 2013 20:33 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
Region locking is exactly what happens in normal sports and imo will improve the local scenes long term.
When was SC a normal sport? It's more based on the individual and we don't see that crap in things like golf or tennis. This isn't a team sport (yes we have the GSTLs/PLs but the bare bones of the situation is it comes to the individual)and considering we do this stuff through PCs booooooong. It's okay to have some regional stuff like WCG/WCS but there should still keep the global presence in tack.
On March 27 2013 14:20 Branman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 11:13 StarStruck wrote:On March 27 2013 09:43 Branman wrote:On March 27 2013 05:58 StarStruck wrote:On March 27 2013 05:45 Branman wrote:
I already addressed the differences between those sports and becoming a professional gamer though. They want them nice and young because the development process is different when it comes to RTS professional gaming. It's unfortunate but required compared to other athletics where players mature a lot later. It's well proven. :/
I just wanted to address this point and cut off the rest of the quote tree because it was really complex. Just because you can mature as a younger RTS professional player doesn't mean that that is the right thing to do. There are many things that should be sacrificed in the quest to have the greatest skill, and there are things that shouldn't be sacrificed. Going back to my steroid example from a few posts ago. Juicing up will make you bigger, faster, and stronger (increase your skill level), but as a society, we've decided that it isn't worth the costs of allowing steroids. We've decided that the sacrifices required in order to take steroids while training and maintaining a career as a professional athlete are unacceptable. It very well can be the case that starting a very stringent training regime at 14 will make you a better RTS player than if you started a similar regime at 18, but we as a community should probably look down on starting so early because it does not give an aspiring pro player a bridge to a post-esports career. We should agree that going pro before the age of 18 is a sacrifice that we shouldn't accept. Let me put it this way. In their development process it is necessary for them to start young in order to reach their full potential or else they put themselves at risk of not achieving their goals. Sacrifices always have to be made and it's no different when we're talking about Starcraft. It's a pretty tough pill to swallow. There will always be certain exceptions like your Nestea's and dare I even say White-Ras. I didn't really specify the age but I know some guilds who look for kids even younger than 14 when it came to BW. Scary don't you think? Yes, it certainly doesn't address their education let alone letting them live out their youth where they can learn all kinds of shit, but these are the sacrifices they choose in hopes of making it and unfortunately very few will. You heard me talking about the limited player pool in places like NA. There are a lot of Koreans who dream about becoming Pro Gamers too, but very few of them will find success as well. Not saying I personally encourage it. If those kids want to give it a try it's their choice and their sacrifice. In many cases I don't think they truly understand what they're doing with their lives which is sad. If the kid is ridiculously good and has that raw talent that so few have and seems to understand the sacrifice. I would have no problem taking them on my team and making them a stone cold killer. You seem to agree with what I'm saying, but you're making an appeal to "this is just the way it's done." In your last sentence, you said that if a kid truly understood what they were giving up, you wouldn't have a problem with that. However, the point of this would be to protect them from people who don't actually care about them. For every person that would actually only recruit them if they truly understood the sacrifice, there are many more who are willing to just exploit their dreams for commercial gain. If you ever want to have a widespread audience in the West, then any semblance of dropping out of high school to play games professionally will have to be eliminated from the worldwide scene. Sports have always thrived on the idea that kids could dream of one day being good enough to grace the stage of the pro game. However, if the message becomes "if you want to eventually make it as a pro, you have to drop out of high school and just start playing games otherwise you'll be behind your peers" then the idea that Westerners should even think of becoming a pro will just fade away. Just from the right hand sidebar on TL, both Life and Creator were born in 1997 and were playing professionally at the age of 14 having logged GSL/GSTL games in the TLPD from 2011. How can we expect a Western player who starts going pro at the age of 18 to even hope of catching someone who has already been a pro for 4 years? That's the thing about competition, if you want to compete at the highest level, then you have to do the exact same things everyone else on the highest level does. This was steroids in baseball in the late 90s, and it's dropping out of high school in Starcraft today. The thing is most kids don't really have any perspective of the world around them when we're talking about anywhere from 9 -14. Kids who are even 16-22 barely have perspective as well. I'm just grateful that a lot of the kids early on who did well decided to put their parents in charge of their winnings. As for the people recruiting these kids. Yeah, it's hard to come by the right house let alone the right team and coaches. Like I said we're severely limited on great coaches that give the proper attention they deserve. It's practically impossible to protect them. I wrote a long manifesto a long time ago which includes certifying Clubs/Teams that follow a certain criteria I wrote myself, so players know what to look for when they're being wooed. You view it as catching up. I view it as stunting their development because those years you speak of are critical when it comes to player developing their skills. There is no real catching up. They will be superior. Looking at the old BW pros 16 equals prime time. Yes, you do have to do what they do. Some players will tell you they like to have their own practice regime because it works for them. Look at their results and notice how the vast majority aren't getting the payoff. Show them what they were doing before compared to what they are doing now. Yup. That and you really need good sparring partners like I said before so yeah. You know what I think about that already. Dropping out of high school to play Starcraft isn't new. The kiddies were doing it in BW as well. You think their parents liked it? Heck no. Ask a lot of the players this question.. when you have kids would you want them to follow in your foot steps? I've seen several interviews where they ask this question and they all say the same thing. No. Thanks for your input to this conversation. It's clear you've been around this for awhile and have seen many of these things first hand. The fact that pros have said that they wouldn't want a similar life for their kids is very telling. Esports will have a much harder time maturing to a viable industry if retired pros say things like "don't do it, it's not worth it" to their own children or other up and coming kids. I think that in order for there to be a sustainable global scene, and a scene which actually cares about young players, we need two rules. (I would expect these to come from Western sources whose culture has less tolerance for underaged labor.) 1. Any player under the local age of majority which enters a tournament must do so as an "amateur" (i.e. not on the roster of a pro team). 2. Any player which is a member of a pro team which employs underaged players will not be allowed to participate.* These rules work to protect players from being pressured into joining a pro team before they reach the age of majority. You won't have the 15 year old Kespa "practice slaves" under a system like this, or you would have those players but Kespa A-teamers wouldn't be allowed to enter tournaments and their sponsors would get less exposure. The pressure to enter a strict training regimen at an early age will likewise be reduced because everyone is summarily penalized. This should result in an esports career being less "all-in" as players will have an opportunity to finish school on time. Things you can still do under this rule: You can still have underaged players enter tournaments and practice a LOT. If esports is truly a passion, then they can continue to put as much time as they can into it. This will make becoming a progamer more analogous to becoming a musician or dancer. In no way should we discourage players from working hard and practicing, but the point is doing so as a 'pro' where someone is making money off of your labor is VERY different from pursuing it as an amateur. You will still see these players in tournaments if the tournaments which operate under these rules have qualifiers specifically for amateur players. For example, IPL had open tournaments for a paid plane ticket and hotel room for their definition of amateur. That's also how Scarlett got her start. The goal is to still see players like Life make it to the big stage and upset the established pros. This will make for great story lines, protect the underaged players, and probably really boost the best ones as they will have a bidding war for their services once they turn 18. Now, you'll still have tournament organizations which would ignore these rules. I just hope that the community would recognize the difference between types of tournaments. Going back to my sports analogy from a few posts ago, this would be like having one sports league where steroids are allowed, and another sports league where steroids are banned. Sure you will see higher level play in the league with steroids, but history has shown that higher-level play isn't the end-all-be-all goal of sports. *Caveat to rule#2: you wouldn't need to ban all pro teams if there was an actual oversight organization which would ensure that underage players weren't being exploited. The optimal final solution would be for some international governing body to actually monitor pro teams which employ players under the age of majority to make sure that their needs are being taken care of. Unfortunately, this doesn't exist, so the idea is to just say no to such behavior.
In my manifesto I wrote about separating players by major and minor leaguers.
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opterown
Australia54785 Posts
On March 30 2013 14:23 eviltomahawk wrote:Ah, interesting. A long time ago, there were rumors that OGN wanted to broadcast GSL back during the Open Seasons, and they may have even started prepping some of their commentators for it. Unfortunately, the Blizzard vs KeSPA thing was still going on, so that obviously never came to fruition. Until now.
oh damn this is interesting indeed
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On March 30 2013 14:31 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2013 14:23 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 30 2013 14:18 larse wrote:+ Show Spoiler +OGN schedule shows that "WCS<GSL>" will be broadcasted on OGN on April 4th !!! Ah, interesting. A long time ago, there were rumors that OGN wanted to broadcast GSL back during the Open Seasons, and they may have even started prepping some of their commentators for it. Unfortunately, the Blizzard vs KeSPA thing was still going on, so that obviously never came to fruition. Until now. oh damn this is interesting indeed
Indeed it's interesting, finally something concrete O_o. Looks exciting to say the least.
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Finally GSL on OGN. This would've happened 1~2 years ago if it weren't for Kespa Blizzard dispute. (On a side note, CJ, owner of OGN, has had disagreement with SKT which was running Kespa for quite some time and there were rumors of CJ wanting to either leave Kespa or take over because it didn't like the direction it was going.)
Just one more day of wait and everything will be known!!! No more speculation. Hopefully a lot of exciting news and positive direction for SC2.
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They probably realize that separate leagues are hurting the competitiveness of the game compared to LoL.
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On March 30 2013 14:31 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2013 14:23 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 30 2013 14:18 larse wrote:+ Show Spoiler +OGN schedule shows that "WCS<GSL>" will be broadcasted on OGN on April 4th !!! Ah, interesting. A long time ago, there were rumors that OGN wanted to broadcast GSL back during the Open Seasons, and they may have even started prepping some of their commentators for it. Unfortunately, the Blizzard vs KeSPA thing was still going on, so that obviously never came to fruition. Until now. oh damn this is interesting indeed
This on top of all the news of EG players moving to California later this week, NASL(also in California) not having announced their season yet, I think the awesome is yet to come or all regions. It sounds like nothing but good news is coming.
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On April 02 2013 00:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2013 14:31 opterown wrote:On March 30 2013 14:23 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 30 2013 14:18 larse wrote:+ Show Spoiler +OGN schedule shows that "WCS<GSL>" will be broadcasted on OGN on April 4th !!! Ah, interesting. A long time ago, there were rumors that OGN wanted to broadcast GSL back during the Open Seasons, and they may have even started prepping some of their commentators for it. Unfortunately, the Blizzard vs KeSPA thing was still going on, so that obviously never came to fruition. Until now. oh damn this is interesting indeed This on top of all the news of EG players moving to California later this week, NASL(also in California) not having announced their season yet, I think the awesome is yet to come or all regions. It sounds like nothing but good news is coming.
Wow, this sounds like pretty huge and it actually looks to be something real and concrete instead of the fluff that was announced before.
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if it is region lock, i hope they leave exceptions so foreigners can compete at highest level in proleague/gsl/osl. i always enjoy watching foreigners play against koreans.
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Foreigner vs foreigner is the most boring matchup in starcraft. I hope they consider other options because I know a lot of people who are only interested in watching high level games, and won't bother watching anything else.
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On April 02 2013 02:28 jinorazi wrote:
if it is region lock, i hope they leave exceptions so foreigners can compete at highest level in proleague/gsl/osl. i always enjoy watching foreigners play against koreans.
There are likely going to be rules for "seasons" to lock people into a region for a set period of time. I think this would be good, because it will allow people to advance through the leagues, like the major and minor leagues. It will allow for more stable advancement for new players.
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On April 02 2013 02:33 Al Bundy wrote:
Foreigner vs foreigner is the most boring matchup in starcraft. I hope they consider other options because I know a lot of people who are only interested in watching high level games, and won't bother watching anything else.
I hear there will be tournaments in Korea featuring the highest level of play, with the greatest players in the world. I think it has some name like....GS...something. It awesome, these two guys case it and they are really funny, though one of them has lost his passion(or so I have been told).
There will be something for everyone.
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EPT
