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On March 26 2013 19:04 Eury wrote:
Explain to me why Idra has a larger fanbase and outreach than pretty much the whole Korean scene put together if people only cares about watching the "highest level of play"?
Does he? Please break it down into numbers for me, because its not just a bold statement, but also a wrong one even if you take out the exaggeration.
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On March 26 2013 19:06 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:04 Eury wrote:
Explain to me why Idra has a larger fanbase and outreach than pretty much the whole Korean scene put together if people only cares about watching the "highest level of play"? Does he? Please break it down into numbers for me, because its not just a bold statement, but also a wrong one even if you take out the exaggeration.
Name me a more popular/famous SC 2 player than Idra.
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On March 26 2013 19:04 Eury wrote:
Explain to me why Idra has a larger fanbase and outreach than pretty much the whole Korean scene put together if people only cares about watching the "highest level of play"?
He doesn't. All of TBLS has more fans. Its only that you talk with foreigners.
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I'll wait to make up my mind when they have announced it themselves, all the cards on the table and hopefully not in some borked english.
And as of right now theres two different versions:
The RIOT model with regionals, no mention of OSL and no change to PL. (TorteDeLini)
***
GSL/OSL partnership, GSTL caned after current season and some teams get invited to PL, mentions of RIOT model but no words on direct plans. (/vg/)
RIOT model = EU/NA/Asia each have their own big tournaments and other tournaments that feed into them, a full scale year by year WCS.
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On March 26 2013 19:08 Eury wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:06 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 26 2013 19:04 Eury wrote:
Explain to me why Idra has a larger fanbase and outreach than pretty much the whole Korean scene put together if people only cares about watching the "highest level of play"? Does he? Please break it down into numbers for me, because its not just a bold statement, but also a wrong one even if you take out the exaggeration. Name me a more popular/famous SC 2 player than Idra.
Maybe there isn't one. However there is quite a distinction between one player and an entire scene.
EDIT: Obviously assuming only foreign fans.
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On March 26 2013 19:08 Eury wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:06 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 26 2013 19:04 Eury wrote:
Explain to me why Idra has a larger fanbase and outreach than pretty much the whole Korean scene put together if people only cares about watching the "highest level of play"? Does he? Please break it down into numbers for me, because its not just a bold statement, but also a wrong one even if you take out the exaggeration. Name me a more popular/famous SC 2 player than Idra.
I can name one from his very own team: Jaedong is more popular.
If you are talking about popularity between the foreign scene, yes this might even be the case, but that doesn't mean Starcraft 2 in general. This ones again is proof of how little people know / follow the scene. The scene and fanbase in Korea is huge, do you really think there's no one with an equal amount of fans to his 30k facebook likes? You are kidding yourself.
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opterown
Australia54785 Posts
On March 26 2013 19:09 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:08 Eury wrote:On March 26 2013 19:06 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 26 2013 19:04 Eury wrote:
Explain to me why Idra has a larger fanbase and outreach than pretty much the whole Korean scene put together if people only cares about watching the "highest level of play"? Does he? Please break it down into numbers for me, because its not just a bold statement, but also a wrong one even if you take out the exaggeration. Name me a more popular/famous SC 2 player than Idra. Maybe there isn't one. However there is quite a distinction between one player and an entire scene. EDIT: Obviously assuming only foreign fans.
grubby, stephano are both better players than idra and have comparable fanbases
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 26 2013 19:08 Eury wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:06 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 26 2013 19:04 Eury wrote:
Explain to me why Idra has a larger fanbase and outreach than pretty much the whole Korean scene put together if people only cares about watching the "highest level of play"? Does he? Please break it down into numbers for me, because its not just a bold statement, but also a wrong one even if you take out the exaggeration. Name me a more popular/famous SC 2 player than Idra.
You are funny
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On March 26 2013 19:04 Eury wrote:
Explain to me why Idra has a larger fanbase and outreach than pretty much the whole Korean scene put together if people only cares about watching the "highest level of play"?
Well I don't know :D
He's a legacy player at this point. If he were to appear in the scene right now, nobody would give a damn.
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People are seriously overestimating the SC 2 scene in Korea. Pretty much the whole BW scene never switched over, and if they did, they did it to LoL not SC 2. The SC 2 scene is heavily Western focused when it comes to popularity and fanbase, and Jaedong isn't even close to Idra's popularity in SC 2.
Ask Alex Garfield what his most valuable player is and I would bet you that it is Idra, Stephano, then HuK/Incontrol and maybe Jaedong after that.
Edit: Someone mentioned Grubby and he is probably the closest to Idra when it comes to popularity. At the end of the day whether it is Idra, Grubby or even Jaedong, I wouldn't call their play the "highest possible".
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On March 26 2013 19:19 Eury wrote:
People are seriously overestimating the SC 2 scene in Korea. Pretty much the whole BW scene never switched over, and if they did, they did it to LoL not SC 2. The SC 2 scene is heavily Western focused when it comes to popularity and fanbase, and Jaedong isn't even close to Idra's popularity in SC 2.
Ask Alex Garfield what his most valuable player is and I would bet you that it is Idra, Stephano, then HuK/Incontrol and maybe Jaedong after that.
Edit: Someone mentioned Grubby and he is probably the closest to Idra when it comes to popularity. At the end of the day whether it is Idra, Grubby or even Jaedong, I wouldn't call their play the "highest possible".
Grubby closest to IdrA in the whole scene, see his numbers on weibo (chinese twitter)
Followers 768355
on chinese twitter. Good luck beating it. And you are wrong, even if the Korean Scene is not AS big as before, there are still numbers that can beat the foreign stars and even if I would agree that IdrA is more valueable to EG compared to Jaedong, more popular? Certainly not if you want to speak for the whole scene.
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On March 26 2013 17:16 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 17:06 Insoleet wrote:
Region lock will probably only be a bad rumor. Probably that na players will earn wcs points during mlg, eu players during dh, and kr players during gsl. But every player from any region will probably be able to play anywhere. its just that Koreans won't gain wcs points during mlg or dh, and vice versa. I hope this is the case. This sounds most reasonable.
That's not it. First, it's not "big" as the announcement promises to be. Second, it's unfair to the Non-Dreamhack regions that were given regional qualifiers before. That would be an obvious downgrade for those regions and one event less per year. Third, MLG is completely unrepresentative of the American competition. It's only about dodging Koreans and this is mostly seeding/bracket luck. Teams that are able to send players to every MLG gain more points than true talents. So you would make competition among Americans even worse.
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I hope blizzard will make the GSL and GSTL content affordable. I would watch GSL if it had 720p quality and free (for instance on twitch and with adds).
Even if it would only be rebroadcasts. (and ppl pay for the live experience)
Difference between proleage and GSL is that Gomtv reaches - and maybe aims for - a more international public. Wich is offcourse what Blizzard wants: making sc2 more mainstream outside of korea and using korea as 'homebase'. An inspiration to us all.
Wy cant we have a legitimite worldwide tournament ladder? Points are devided between leagues. These points can be won by players. Every year there would be a grand finales organised by Blizzard where the top 32 players with most points are invited to play on the big stage and for the most prestigious price of the year.
We can make that more interesting by making some tournaments 'Europian only' and other's 'American only'. Sure, normally maybe only 2 non-koreans would get into the top 32, but wouldn't it be great if we see non-koreans on big stages more often?
You could say, isn't MLG doing that? Well yes but MLG is allied with Proleague and looks like their goal is to dominate the market. I have to much sympathy for Dreamhack, IEM and GSL to want to see MLG-Proleague 'win the race of elimination'.
Maybe, Blizzard is the only 'party above party's'. They can afford to have only one goal: showcase (./sell) the game to as many ppl as possible.
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On March 26 2013 19:19 Eury wrote:
People are seriously overestimating the SC 2 scene in Korea. Pretty much the whole BW scene never switched over, and if they did, they did it to LoL not SC 2. The SC 2 scene is heavily Western focused when it comes to popularity and fanbase, and Jaedong isn't even close to Idra's popularity in SC 2.
Ask Alex Garfield what his most valuable player is and I would bet you that it is Idra, Stephano, then HuK/Incontrol and maybe Jaedong after that.
Edit: Someone mentioned Grubby and he is probably the closest to Idra when it comes to popularity. At the end of the day whether it is Idra, Grubby or even Jaedong, I wouldn't call their play the "highest possible".
I would just ask myself how we can call this a sport (yeah the word sport is actually a major part of e-sport) if we value entertainment factors over competition.
Players like Idra, Incontrol, WhiteRa or Destiny before he retired are basically pure entertainers at this point. they are so far away from the top (even if you you look at the NA or EU scene), that they actually don't matter in competitive terms. Realizing that by themselves they put their focus on what they're good at: entertainment! They participate in talk shows, stream a lot and so on: community things. But whenever you do community things it means you neither practice nor regenerate. Which means you don't use that time for getting better. So it should be pretty natural that you don't have the best players in the world doing these community things on a high regular basis and this means it's pretty natural that the best players in the world might not have the biggest fan crowds.
And this brings us back to the start. When we want to establish e-sports as a competitive gaming culture, we have to value competition over entertainment. But so far the scene is doing a great job there.
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On March 26 2013 19:08 Eury wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:06 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 26 2013 19:04 Eury wrote:
Explain to me why Idra has a larger fanbase and outreach than pretty much the whole Korean scene put together if people only cares about watching the "highest level of play"? Does he? Please break it down into numbers for me, because its not just a bold statement, but also a wrong one even if you take out the exaggeration. Name me a more popular/famous SC 2 player than Idra.
Stephano is the biggest draw in the entire scene i'm pretty sure. Grubby is big too.
Idra does have a huge fan/hater base though.
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On March 26 2013 19:27 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:19 Eury wrote:
People are seriously overestimating the SC 2 scene in Korea. Pretty much the whole BW scene never switched over, and if they did, they did it to LoL not SC 2. The SC 2 scene is heavily Western focused when it comes to popularity and fanbase, and Jaedong isn't even close to Idra's popularity in SC 2.
Ask Alex Garfield what his most valuable player is and I would bet you that it is Idra, Stephano, then HuK/Incontrol and maybe Jaedong after that.
Edit: Someone mentioned Grubby and he is probably the closest to Idra when it comes to popularity. At the end of the day whether it is Idra, Grubby or even Jaedong, I wouldn't call their play the "highest possible". Grubby closest to IdrA in the whole scene, see his numbers on weibo (chinese twitter) Followers 768355 on chinese twitter. Good luck beating it. And you are wrong, even if the Korean Scene is not AS big as before, there are still numbers that can beat the foreign stars and even if I would agree that IdrA is more valueable to EG compared to Jaedong, more popular? Certainly not if you want to speak for the whole scene.
Grubby's weibo followers have nothing to do with SC 2 at all. For China to start caring about SC 2 Chinese players have to start winning.
I sure hope you are right about the SC 2 scene in Korea because the impression I get is that it isn't pretty. If it wasn't for GOM and KeSPA there would barely be a scene at all, while if OGN stopped with LoL tomorrow, the Korean LoL scene would recover just fine.
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On March 26 2013 19:43 Eury wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:27 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 26 2013 19:19 Eury wrote:
People are seriously overestimating the SC 2 scene in Korea. Pretty much the whole BW scene never switched over, and if they did, they did it to LoL not SC 2. The SC 2 scene is heavily Western focused when it comes to popularity and fanbase, and Jaedong isn't even close to Idra's popularity in SC 2.
Ask Alex Garfield what his most valuable player is and I would bet you that it is Idra, Stephano, then HuK/Incontrol and maybe Jaedong after that.
Edit: Someone mentioned Grubby and he is probably the closest to Idra when it comes to popularity. At the end of the day whether it is Idra, Grubby or even Jaedong, I wouldn't call their play the "highest possible". Grubby closest to IdrA in the whole scene, see his numbers on weibo (chinese twitter) Followers 768355 on chinese twitter. Good luck beating it. And you are wrong, even if the Korean Scene is not AS big as before, there are still numbers that can beat the foreign stars and even if I would agree that IdrA is more valueable to EG compared to Jaedong, more popular? Certainly not if you want to speak for the whole scene. Grubby's weibo followers have nothing to do with SC 2 at all. For China to start caring about SC 2 Chinese players have to start winning. I sure hope you are right about the SC 2 scene in Korea because the impression I get is that it isn't pretty. If it wasn't for GOM and KeSPA there would barely be a scene at all, while if OGN stopped with LoL tomorrow, the Korean LoL scene would recover just fine.
You asked about popularity of a player, and certainly weibo followers are part of popularity. Also I keep asking myself how much you actually know about the Korean scene? How much do you follow it? Because I get the impression you don't. Starcraft 2 KeSPa isn't invovled into the scene for a very long time but they are already showing good results. GSL, OSL, Proleague, GSTL and smaller Korean tournaments... they do just fine as it seems.
Really its also not me hating on foreign players. I really would love to see more of them competing at higher levels, I just strictly disagree with banning competition. If foreigners want to get into the top ranks, well train hard. KeSPa players did rise that fast because they have a very good training and put lots of effort into it. There's no magic to it or special abilitiy. Ask Draco, ret, IdrA for that matter.. they were in progaming teams in Korea.
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On March 26 2013 19:34 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:19 Eury wrote:
People are seriously overestimating the SC 2 scene in Korea. Pretty much the whole BW scene never switched over, and if they did, they did it to LoL not SC 2. The SC 2 scene is heavily Western focused when it comes to popularity and fanbase, and Jaedong isn't even close to Idra's popularity in SC 2.
Ask Alex Garfield what his most valuable player is and I would bet you that it is Idra, Stephano, then HuK/Incontrol and maybe Jaedong after that.
Edit: Someone mentioned Grubby and he is probably the closest to Idra when it comes to popularity. At the end of the day whether it is Idra, Grubby or even Jaedong, I wouldn't call their play the "highest possible". I would just ask myself how we can call this a sport (yeah the word sport is actually a major part of e-sport) if we value entertainment factors over competition. Players like Idra, Incontrol, WhiteRa or Destiny before he retired are basically pure entertainers at this point. they are so far away from the top (even if you you look at the NA or EU scene), that they actually don't matter in competitive terms. Realizing that by themselves they put their focus on what they're good at: entertainment! They participate in talk shows, stream a lot and so on: community things. But whenever you do community things it means you neither practice nor regenerate. Which means you don't use that time for getting better. So it should be pretty natural that you don't have the best players in the world doing these community things on a high regular basis and this means it's pretty natural that the best players in the world might not have the biggest fan crowds. And this brings us back to the start. When we want to establish e-sports as a competitive gaming culture, we have to value competition over entertainment. But so far the scene is doing a great job there.
I see your point but entertainment is also a very large part of sports. We don't care only about how players play, we care about their personal history, how they act and how they live. To give you an example what is the first picture you conjure up when I mention the name Zidane?
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On March 26 2013 19:43 Eury wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:27 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 26 2013 19:19 Eury wrote:
People are seriously overestimating the SC 2 scene in Korea. Pretty much the whole BW scene never switched over, and if they did, they did it to LoL not SC 2. The SC 2 scene is heavily Western focused when it comes to popularity and fanbase, and Jaedong isn't even close to Idra's popularity in SC 2.
Ask Alex Garfield what his most valuable player is and I would bet you that it is Idra, Stephano, then HuK/Incontrol and maybe Jaedong after that.
Edit: Someone mentioned Grubby and he is probably the closest to Idra when it comes to popularity. At the end of the day whether it is Idra, Grubby or even Jaedong, I wouldn't call their play the "highest possible". Grubby closest to IdrA in the whole scene, see his numbers on weibo (chinese twitter) Followers 768355 on chinese twitter. Good luck beating it. And you are wrong, even if the Korean Scene is not AS big as before, there are still numbers that can beat the foreign stars and even if I would agree that IdrA is more valueable to EG compared to Jaedong, more popular? Certainly not if you want to speak for the whole scene. Grubby's weibo followers have nothing to do with SC 2 at all. For China to start caring about SC 2 Chinese players have to start winning. I sure hope you are right about the SC 2 scene in Korea because the impression I get is that it isn't pretty. If it wasn't for GOM and KeSPA there would barely be a scene at all, while if OGN stopped with LoL tomorrow, the Korean LoL scene would recover just fine.
And Idra's following has way more to do with his BW career then his sc2 so doesn't that invalids your own argument?
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EPT
