EPTMarch 18th 2013: David Kim's HotS Thoughts - Page 4
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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n0ise
3452 Posts
On March 19 2013 02:23 Zelniq wrote: i think the best way to change it though is to make nydus hive tech, but not easily deniable just cus you spotted it. Probably by reducing the build time and increase the hp both, and also allow the zerg to cancel building a worm too to get some (not all) money back and so they can start planting another one sooner. then it also makes more sense for zerg's drop to be just a little better, overlords are kinda slow..maybe allow overseers to drop units, meaning if the zerg wants to have speedier dropships they spend more money and time making overlords into overseers. not bad suggestions, but if you were a terran defending against 2-3 base nydus roach aggression you'd know it's still pretty difficult to defend 3 months before the end of wol that's what half the actual zvt metagame was, at one point. maybe some hp boost and 25-50% money back on cancelation would be a good place to start | ||
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
On March 19 2013 02:10 ymir233 wrote: What's wrong with econ games...o____O? Aggression isn't always fun to watch. Exaggeration: Purely economic games with no aggression until the final battle (AKA WoL at the end) are so boring for spectators. One of the reasons why TvT and TvZ are so amazing is that both sides can be incredibly aggressive with drops/mutalisks/runbys AND progress through a macro game. I think the goal of Blizz is to get all matchups to this stage: constant aggression with multiple armies, a focus on map control, and the ability to macro during all of this. What I mean is that on 1/2 base there is aggression while both players move to 3/4 bases and tech. This makes for the most entertaining games. The occasional cheese off of 1/2 base becomes incredibly entertaining as well. The occasional purely macro game with GIANT armies clashing also becomes incredibly entertaining as well. But when pure cheese (AKA WoL 2010) or pure macro (AKA WoL 2012) is the most common thing to see, people become extremely bored. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
They're talking about creative players coming up with aggressive solutions. The solution MC found was to all-in with Oracles, or cripple with Oracles and follow that up with a 2 base all-in. Basically kill the Terran before he can start multi-dropping. Is that what the future of the game should be? | ||
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covetousrat
2109 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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WickedBit
United States343 Posts
On March 19 2013 02:07 Salv wrote: I am fine with them taking their time before implementing any changes, but what is somewhat irritating is to see David Kim say that the players aren't even close to figuring out the game even though they've already stated before that they just create the units and see what players do with them. Saying that players haven't figured out the game is either a statement that he's in position to make, or they know what works best for the match ups and that contradicts their previous statements. I think it was obvious looking at the MC vs Bomber games where MC utilized oracles + Phoenix to keep the terran in his base. Now MC is the kinda player who likes his allins and he pretty much relied on 2 base allins in these games. It would be interesting to see if another protoss can come up with a strat that involves these and transition effectively to late game. Terrans are currently strong due to speedvacs and both Life and MC used air units, Mutas for Life and oracles+phoenix for MC, to keep the terran in his base and snipe drops. If you theory craft it then you realize that if terrans keep losing their medivacs to mutas and phoenix then they can't drop effectively. I think this is a nice dynamic to have. Additionally the new medivacs have a side affect of reducing death ball play. The constant drop harassing means that all races need to split their forces to counter them. I think the problem matchups at the moment are not terran related at all. It seems that protoss have very little answer to Mutas at the moment. Then can go phoenix but unlike with terran where phoenix can atleast kill medivacs, once the mutas die they are dead weight against insta remax zerg army that will follow. Overall I like David Kims wait and see approach. Only thing is when they do get around to balancing I hope its in form of some buffs and not nerfs. Its good and a lot of fun to have powerful game changing abilities in the game. It builds tension and excitement. | ||
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
On March 19 2013 02:28 sitromit wrote: They're talking about creative players coming up with aggressive solutions. The solution MC found was to all-in with Oracles, or cripple with Oracles and follow that up with a 2 base all-in. Basically kill the Terran before he can start multi-dropping. Is that what the future of the game should be? I mean...obviously it won't be. This is what happens: Player 1 finds a macro strategy emerges and appears to dominate. Then player 2 creates an all-in that appears to dominate player 1's macro strategy. Then player 1 adapts and stops the idea. Then the metagame starts to form... | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
Secondly, as a Terran, I would be okay with a buff to Nydus exit creation time, and I also really like the idea of a unit number cap on the load/unload ability for the worm. I think that would allow both more creative Zerg aggression (multiple Nydus at once to get at least one into the base, for instance) while encouraging smarter overall play by opponents (depots/pylons/overlords ensuring coverage of all base corners so as to help deny possible Nyduses and necessitating as quick a reaction time as when dealing with drops to deal with the worms). | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On March 19 2013 02:23 Zelniq wrote: i think the best way to change it though is to make nydus hive tech, but not easily deniable just cus you spotted it. Probably by reducing the build time and increase the hp both, and also allow the zerg to cancel building a worm too to get some (not all) money back and so they can start planting another one sooner. then it also makes more sense for zerg's drop to be just a little better, overlords are kinda slow..maybe allow overseers to drop units, meaning if the zerg wants to have speedier dropships they spend more money and time making overlords into overseers. Nydus hive tech makes no sense. How can you talk about ways to make more aggressive games and Hive tech in the same sentence? | ||
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
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Incomplet
United Kingdom1419 Posts
HOTS has certainly brought a breath of fresh air into the stagnant WOL. Waiting a bit for strategies and counter-strategies is the appropriate thing to do for now. | ||
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n0ise
3452 Posts
On March 19 2013 02:28 sitromit wrote: They're talking about creative players coming up with aggressive solutions. The solution MC found was to all-in with Oracles, or cripple with Oracles and follow that up with a 2 base all-in. Basically kill the Terran before he can start multi-dropping. Is that what the future of the game should be? Protoss early and Protoss late were always very, very strong - besides, MC is not a stranger to this kind of play. Also, if as a Terran player you die to aggression, doesn't that mean you'll play more defensive and in the end the metagame will balance itself out? Protoss mid in HotS is, I guess we can agree, the problem - but at the same time, Ps are stuck in WoL mindset where they're still going 2 Forge, Twilight, Robo Bay and Templar Archives at the same time, go behind 40 supply then wonder why they can't defend anything. | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On March 19 2013 02:31 sitromit wrote: Nydus hive tech makes no sense. How can you talk about ways to make more aggressive games and Hive tech in the same sentence? not sure what you mean..if you're referring to how pre-hive wouldn't be aggressive, that's partly why I also suggested an improvement to drop (overseer drop) at lair tech. and many games at hive tech can lead to a strong/slow army, turtle type of game..the nydus would really help that. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On March 19 2013 02:31 TimENT wrote: I mean...obviously it won't be. This is what happens: Player 1 finds a macro strategy emerges and appears to dominate. Then player 2 creates an all-in that appears to dominate player 1's macro strategy. Then player 1 adapts and stops the idea. Then the metagame starts to form... That's the problem. They're pretending as if a solution to speedvacs was found, when in fact the strategy is to kill Terran before mass drops become a factor. This means once the counter is found and Terran can live long enough to get to that stage, it's back at square 1, nothing has changed. It's the same as telling Zerg to just kill Toss before they get to Skytoss. For a while, people will find ways to do it, then people will find ways to safely get there, and the problem still remains. | ||
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
On March 19 2013 02:19 avilo wrote: Faster mutalisks with regeneration enabling muta ling baneling play to be more viable. (it already was anyways, just better now). Buffed ultralisks that can two shot marines and are an aggressive unit. 12 range infestor to support ultras. A viper that shuts down defensive units allowing you to be aggressive where previously not possible with speed hydras. Tier 1 burrow. You did get some new aggressive things, if you choose not to use them that's on you and other Zergs. Life and the top tier Zergs already have started to use them. As for the metagame, look forward in the next two weeks for oracle dice roll PvT to "evolve" if you can call it that into a match-up where every game is, "did he go oracle? did he build more than 1? or is he doing a different all-in? do i build turrets or no?" TvZ will be more refined bio+mine play and mech + speed burrow will start cropping up very soon. As for PvZ, Zergs probably will start using mass drop a lot more considering hydras are better in general. And a sigh of relief to every Terran play on earth who thought that blizzard would make the mistake of nerfing Terran blindly again. Speed medivacs are already being dealt with quite well by SPEED MUTALISKS and stargate openings from Protoss. And yes, i'm advocating everyone call them "speed mutalisks" because for some reason everyone is acting as if medivacs were the only unit that received a speed buff which is untrue. I think he wishes there was a way to make ground units more consistent in the early/mid/late game in a similar way that Terran gets to do that with Speedvacs. Like I posted earlier in this thread, I think that overlord speed and overlord drops should be merged into the same upgrade. Maybe Blizz could give overlords a hive tech upgrade as well that makes them more durable. This is from a spectators perspective. I want to see MORE drops like the Innovation v Flash match, IN ALL MATCHUPS. | ||
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Rainling
United States456 Posts
On March 19 2013 02:23 Zelniq wrote: i think the best way to change it though is to make nydus hive tech, but not easily deniable just cus you spotted it. Probably by reducing the build time and increase the hp both, and also allow the zerg to cancel building a worm too to get some (not all) money back and so they can start planting another one sooner. then it also makes more sense for zerg's drop to be just a little better, overlords are kinda slow..maybe allow overseers to drop units, meaning if the zerg wants to have speedier dropships they spend more money and time making overlords into overseers. I completely agree with this, nydus on lair tech often seems all in and gimmicky, while nydus in the mid-late game has a lot of potential for connecting bases and multi-pronged harass, but is easily shut down anywhere the protoss has vision. I also like the overseer drop idea. Another issue with nydus worms is that all units load and unload at the same speed. This results in large units like ultralisks unloading very quickly and speedlings and banelings unloading very slowly. I think the unload speeds should be adjusted based on cargo space. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
On March 19 2013 02:24 Salient wrote: Blizzard might balance the game without nerfing anything. Giving Stalkers bonus damage vs air could help vs speed-vacs, the new mutas, and the new voidrays. wrong, stronger stalkers will hurt Terran and Zerg so badly especially when Toss can protect carriers, mothership and colossus so much easier. Stalker is already good vs air, it doesn't need anymore upgrade. | ||
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WickedBit
United States343 Posts
On March 19 2013 02:34 sitromit wrote: That's the problem. They're pretending as if a solution to speedvacs was found, when in fact the strategy is to kill Terran before mass drops become a factor. This means once the counter is found and Terran can live long enough to get to that stage, it's back at square 1, nothing has changed. It's the same as telling Zerg, just kill Toss before they get to Skytoss. For a while, people will find ways to do it, then people will find ways to safely get there, and the problem still remains. Actually if you think about it Terrans died to oracle + 2 base allin since they were all rushing to medivacs using bunkers + marines for defense. If they invest in some mines and turrets they are safe against this. However that delays the medivacs which in turn allows protoss some more time to get their tech up to defend better against the multi dropping that will follow. I think thats what this will develop into. | ||
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