Just wanted to let you know that our design team is watching every major match carefully and will continue doing so.
Some things we're noticing are:
- The super aggressive play is turning out to be really fun to watch.
- Nobody is close to figuring the game out yet.
- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority.
- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them.
Some things we're thinking of going forward:
- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
- We'll continue watching all the pro and community concerns, but keep in mind we'd really like the game to settle before we step in and make a move.
I'd say this is the perfect response following MLG and IEM.
"Nobody is close to figuring the game out yet." I'd say this is more true than ever before. We saw MC and Life adapting mid tournament vs things that other Zs and Ps were struggling against.
Some things I'd love to see from Blizz regarding 'super aggressive play' that is extremely fun to watch:
-Corruptors are SO boring in the game at the moment. Please implement a change that makes them powerful from a players point of view, and captivating to watch as an audience member. This could also affect Mutafests in ZvZ, speedvacs, and airtoss.
-Warp Prisms have so much potential! Maybe increase their pre-upgrade speed and make their speed upgrade cheaper/earlier?
-Void rays are also SO boring to watch. Their 'micro potential' really isn't very interesting. As with corruptors, please implement a change that makes them powerful from a players point of view, and captivating to watch as an audience member.
-Some way to keep nydus worms the same in games where the Zerg cheeses, but make them more usable throughout the game in general.
As I said in another thread, I love DK for this. I hope they consider boosting the other races agressive abilities if it is necessary, rather than nerfing medivacs. More scouting, more agression and less turtling. Give protoss cheaper warp prisim speed out of the cyber core and zerg cheaper drops. Then make sure everyone has the ability to see this stuff coming if they put in the effort. Make the best defense a good offense and everyone will be happy.
Good statement. Also nice to read that they do hear concerns like medivacs. Would have liked to hear some more precise thoughts about efficiency of "new" styles compared to "old" styles, though.
Sure I'm getting slaughtered on ladder but I'm glad they are taking their time and not rushing to nerf things because of the vocal idiocy. I mean minority.
On March 19 2013 01:32 hellokittySC2 wrote: i don't know *fun to watch* for medivac speed is the correct correlation to balance.
He didn't say medivac speed was fun to watch. He said agressive play is fun to watch, which is true. Agression is better than styles where people just try to get a single advantage and macro their way over their opponent.
I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction.
On March 19 2013 01:34 Big J wrote: Good statement. Also nice to read that they do hear concerns like medivacs. Would have liked to hear some more precise thoughts about efficiency of "new" styles compared to "old" styles, though.
I think he is talking about MC and his "Yo, if I build four oracles, you better not try to defend those with just marines," builds. Those were pretty impressive and make FE builds for terran look pretty risky.
That's good to hear (especially after previous nerf list) but the problem is that there are no major tournaments on for quite some time. Things are fun to watch right now but if everything gets boiled down to only one workable strategy things will get old pretty fast. And frankly I think terran is a mess right now and nobody has any idea what to do about it.
Some things I'd love to see from Blizz regarding 'super aggressive play' that is extremely fun to watch:
-Corruptors are SO boring in the game at the moment. Please implement a change that makes them powerful from a players point of view, and captivating to watch as an audience member. This could also affect Mutafests in ZvZ, speedvacs, and airtoss.
-Warp Prisms have so much potential! Maybe increase their pre-upgrade speed and make their speed upgrade cheaper/earlier?
-Void rays are also SO boring to watch. Their 'micro potential' really isn't very interesting. As with corruptors, please implement a change that makes them powerful from a players point of view, and captivating to watch as an audience member.
-Some way to keep nydus worms the same in games where the Zerg cheeses, but make them more usable throughout the game in general.
On March 19 2013 01:38 LgNKami wrote: I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction.
Agreed, or people who want to do one build forever. I have a friend who is super pissed he can't always take a fast third(as zerg) against terran every game because of widow mines. He acts like it is the end of the world, but I know that he is just grumpy that he can't macro his way to A-move glory.
Personally, I'm really bad at two control groups on two different screens, but I am willing to work on that if it means I don't have play the tutle game any more.
On March 19 2013 01:40 TimENT wrote: Some things I'd love to see from Blizz regarding 'super aggressive play' that is extremely fun to watch:
-Corruptors are SO boring in the game at the moment. Please implement a change that makes them powerful from a players point of view, and captivating to watch as an audience member. This could also affect Mutafests in ZvZ, speedvacs, and airtoss.
-Warp Prisms have so much potential! Maybe increase their pre-upgrade speed and make their speed upgrade cheaper/earlier?
-Void rays are also SO boring to watch. Their 'micro potential' really isn't very interesting. As with corruptors, please implement a change that makes them powerful from a players point of view, and captivating to watch as an audience member.
-Some way to keep nydus worms the same in games where the Zerg cheeses, but make them more usable throughout the game in general.
They've mentioned before that they are always looking at the corruptor and agree that it's a boring unit that Zergs hate to use unless going Broodlords and have no choice. Unfortunately it looks like they can't find a solution for it.
Most good Protoss use warp prisms all the time.
Void Rays are more interesting now than before, but yeah some more micro potential for the skill would be nice.
Nydus is BW required creep to be built and that's why it was so cheap. In SC2 you only need vision, so making it cheaper would break it. Maybe make it cheaper to be built on creep but more expensive out of it?
On March 19 2013 01:39 peidongyang wrote: How are Mexicans in tvp fun when it basically forces toss to 1 base allin or never to move out and just die? Edit medivacs stupid autocorrect
We saw MC adapting at MLG with Oracle harassment followed by 6 Phoenixes. Those 6 Phoenixes provided map control/vision and stopped SOME drops. Basically those games were extremely fast paced and entertaining.
Take your time, but don't take too much time like it was for the last 9 months of WoL. Stepping in too early is bad, and doing nothing after the problem is evident is equally bad. DK has a tough job.
On March 19 2013 01:32 hellokittySC2 wrote: i don't know *fun to watch* for medivac speed is the correct correlation to balance.
What do you like more late 2011 TvZ or post-queen patch TvZ?
I like what idra said. Mines/speed medivacs are great because they are kinda silly. Other races need that( i can see it in vipers/oracles partially), game should be balanced by strong units/abilities not nerfed to the ground so its no fun to play/spectate.
yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
I really hope this means that people in Blizzard are not missing ASAP 3 bases into 5base turtlefest games. And that they will try to work against possible development to that direction.
MLG and IEM have been really awesome to watch, so much original creative approaches to builds and strategies!
On March 19 2013 01:39 peidongyang wrote: How are Mexicans in tvp fun when it basically forces toss to 1 base allin or never to move out and just die? Edit medivacs stupid autocorrect
Hahhahaha mexicans, LOL
Anyways, excellent statement, there's nothing to change yet
On March 19 2013 01:39 peidongyang wrote: How are Mexicans in tvp fun when it basically forces toss to 1 base allin or never to move out and just die? Edit medivacs stupid autocorrect
We saw MC adapting at MLG with Oracle harassment followed by 6 Phoenixes. Those 6 Phoenixes provided map control/vision and stopped SOME drops. Basically those games were extremely fast paced and entertaining.
It is true and cut into the standard terran FE openings, which let them get to the 4 medivac promised land. It frees up the gas for him to build the 6 phoenixes. I have to watch those games again to see his build.
The old days of 1 gate FE and 1 Rax FE are dead. Anyone who tries to go that route is going to get slapped around.
I feel that hands off is the best way to proceed atm, give the pros time to evolve the game and see where they can take it before throwing around the balance changes.
On March 19 2013 01:39 peidongyang wrote: How are Mexicans in tvp fun when it basically forces toss to 1 base allin or never to move out and just die? Edit medivacs stupid autocorrect
We saw MC adapting at MLG with Oracle harassment followed by 6 Phoenixes. Those 6 Phoenixes provided map control/vision and stopped SOME drops. Basically those games were extremely fast paced and entertaining.
It is true and cut into the standard terran FE openings, which let them get to the 4 medivac promised land. It frees up the gas for him to build the 6 phoenixes. I have to watch those games again to see his build.
The old days of 1 gate FE and 1 Rax FE are dead. Anyone who tries to go that route is going to get slapped around.
He had several variations of this build. We saw a build with an oracle expo which transitioned into 4-5 oracles plus 5 gate. It murdered the 'current standard' reactor marine/minedrop/expo. We also saw early expo into 2 oracles plus the 6 phoenixes. He transitioned into normal colossi/storm and had excellent map control/vision with oracle envision and the 6 phoenixes
Main reason people struggle with the new HotS styles is because they themselves are still playing WoL, which was mostly playing defensively and just stale posturing. People need to step up the aggression and creativity. All of this is demonstrated by the MLG games.
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
I love the nydus, but it is a free doom drop if it is not spotted. If anything, they should limit the number of units that can be loaded into the nydus at a time and force the player to load and unload. This would require two screen multi tasking and put more of a delay on the nydus dumping out a full army. With that limitation, they could make it more awesome, harder to kill without the risk of it being game ending if it gets up.
On March 19 2013 01:39 peidongyang wrote: How are Mexicans in tvp fun when it basically forces toss to 1 base allin or never to move out and just die? Edit medivacs stupid autocorrect
So that's how they are getting across the border. It must be the afterburners.
I'm with the camp that thinks that if they decide that medivacs are imbalanced, the best fix is to let zerg and protoss in on the fun.
On March 19 2013 01:39 peidongyang wrote: How are Mexicans in tvp fun when it basically forces toss to 1 base allin or never to move out and just die? Edit medivacs stupid autocorrect
We saw MC adapting at MLG with Oracle harassment followed by 6 Phoenixes. Those 6 Phoenixes provided map control/vision and stopped SOME drops. Basically those games were extremely fast paced and entertaining.
It is true and cut into the standard terran FE openings, which let them get to the 4 medivac promised land. It frees up the gas for him to build the 6 phoenixes. I have to watch those games again to see his build.
The old days of 1 gate FE and 1 Rax FE are dead. Anyone who tries to go that route is going to get slapped around.
He had several variations of this build. We saw a build with an oracle expo which transitioned into 4-5 oracles plus 5 gate. It murdered the 'current standard' reactor marine/minedrop/expo. We also saw early expo into 2 oracles plus the 6 phoenixes. He transitioned into normal colossi/storm and had excellent map control/vision with oracle envision and the 6 phoenixes
I know and I want to know them all. I hate PvT with the fire of a nova because I have to be so passive and I don't like waiting for my opponent to come for me. I also love phoenixes because they are so fun to use. Also, the style would make be better at SC2, because my macro while multi tasking is pretty crap right now.
On March 19 2013 01:34 lichter wrote: Sure I'm getting slaughtered on ladder but I'm glad they are taking their time and not rushing to nerf things because of the vocal idiocy. I mean minority.
Maybe you should start adapting and come up with new strategies? Surely It's too early to say nothing works.
On March 19 2013 01:34 Big J wrote: Good statement. Also nice to read that they do hear concerns like medivacs. Would have liked to hear some more precise thoughts about efficiency of "new" styles compared to "old" styles, though.
I think he is talking about MC and his "Yo, if I build four oracles, you better not try to defend those with just marines," builds. Those were pretty impressive and make FE builds for terran look pretty risky.
Ah cool. Haven't seen any games yesterday... timezones. Gotta sleep when I have a presentation the day after
On March 19 2013 01:40 TimENT wrote: Some things I'd love to see from Blizz regarding 'super aggressive play' that is extremely fun to watch:
-Corruptors are SO boring in the game at the moment. Please implement a change that makes them powerful from a players point of view, and captivating to watch as an audience member. This could also affect Mutafests in ZvZ, speedvacs, and airtoss.
Well, alternatively they could allow the Mutalisk to morph into the Devourer again.
The SC2 Devourer looks good. You'll be amazed at how the Devourer flaps it wings (it's in the HotS map editor, you need to set the dependencies to both of the story mode/campaign ones; the Devourer is already set up in the editor, so you can just place it on the map to see how it looks).
That, and add the ability for flying units to being to attack move move (and "dance") without losing speed or stopping.
(In BW, you could dance Mutas by making sure you attack targets the Mutalisks are already facing. If the Mutalisk is given an order to attack something it isn't already facing, it turns and it loses speed and acceleration which added a lot to Mutalisk micro potential.)
If in SC2, you could micro Mutalisk (and other air units) like in BW, then that'd be fun.
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
Life is a pretty good example of someone who takes the basic units of Z (Lings and Mutalisks) and turns them into "stronger, agressive attack method potential" units. Leenock also commonly uses drops and Nydus networks as extremely aggressive tactics. However, I would love to see drops/nydus buffed in a way that keeps them at their current state of 'chessyness' but makes them an overall consistent tactic for Zerg players to use. I remember when baneling drops were used by DRG vs P all the time.
I've done a lot of thinking that could give Zerg more early/midgame aggressive tactics: What if Blizz merged the drops & overlord speed upgrades? What if Blizz the merged roach speed and burrow upgrades? What if Blizz increased the speed of corruptors, lowered their health, and gave them the ability to 'corrupt' enemy air units(attach to them and deal light AoE, and they can be targeted, but it also kills the unit it attaches to)? What if Blizz decreased the cost of nydus worms if they are placed ON creep?
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base)
Hmm maybe they should make it so you can build your nydus in a safe place and then use vipers to abduct it into the base.
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
Life is a pretty good example of someone who takes the basic units of Z (Lings and Mutalisks) and turns them into "stronger, agressive attack method potential" units. Leenock also commonly uses drops and Nydus networks as extremely aggressive tactics. However, I would love to see drops/nydus buffed in a way that keeps them at their current state of 'chessyness' but makes them an overall consistent tactic for Zerg players to use. I remember when baneling drops were used by DRG vs P all the time.
I've done a lot of thinking that could give Zerg more early/midgame aggressive tactics: What if Blizz merged the drops & overlord speed upgrades? What if Blizz the merged roach speed and burrow upgrades? What if Blizz increased the speed of corruptors, lowered their health, and gave them the ability to 'corrupt' enemy air units(attach to them and deal light AoE, and they can be targeted, but it also kills the unit it attaches to)? What if Blizz decreased the cost of nydus worms if they are placed ON creep?
Just a couple ideas...
How is cheaper Nydus on creep going to make for more aggression in any matchup other than ZvZ?
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
I agree. Imo the Nydus should pop out twice as fast. Would make for interesting games. Blizzard waiting it out is smart though, its a dumb idea to patch something after only 1 tournament
On March 19 2013 01:44 Orek wrote: Take your time, but don't take too much time like it was for the last 9 months of WoL. Stepping in too early is bad, and doing nothing after the problem is evident is equally bad. DK has a tough job.
+1000
Waiting too long to patch could cause a massive number of non-terran players to quit in frustration. The crack-vacs might be "fun to watch" at the moment, but it will get old. Broodlord/Infestor might have been fun to watch at first too, but it was bad for the game.
I am fine with them taking their time before implementing any changes, but what is somewhat irritating is to see David Kim say that the players aren't even close to figuring out the game even though they've already stated before that they just create the units and see what players do with them. Saying that players haven't figured out the game is either a statement that he's in position to make, or they know what works best for the match ups and that contradicts their previous statements.
People whining like they know what the meta will settle into or the future for a game that was just released 6 days ago (last time I've heard, the beta had not already established the meta, and that fortune-tellers were fake). Or they just want to WIN NAO instead of coming up with ways (putting in work) to counter new strategies or coming up with new ones themselves. After all it's easier to whine.
I'd say the best course of action for now is to sit back, wait, and see. Force the evolution/adaptation of the players if you will, especially if they don't know when the next blizzard patch will be. Maybe even the new units will be brought into play more often (remember when defilers weren't used in bw). We just might see more exciting games and better balance as a result of it.
If something becomes a constant problem for a while (like idk, 2 months?) where players can absolutely come up with nothing, blizzard can always do something about it down the line. SCII patch cycles are still more frequent and shorter than bw. I guess the only thing now is deciding how long to wait (set a standard) before they make changes. Or not since I believe players are more willing to experiment if they don't know what blizzard will do in the future. I mean, if you're on your last leg you're willing to try anything to survive and win right? If not, you can just die (or whine to blizzard, which I think is only acceptable after you tried for a while. 6 days is certainly too soon).
It'll be like an experiment, it'll be fun. I just hope players won't resort to poker/gamble openings too much as a result, since that is also the easier path to take...
agression is nice, but a metagame where you don't go beyond 1base is not. If Blizz wants to increase agressive potential of Z & P I'm fine with it as long as they don't open up additional 1/2 base allin possibilities - the ones that exist are more than enough -_-
Edit: And from my personal ladder experience in addition to what I've seen at MLG, it's very clear that Medivac Speedbooster is too strong!
On March 19 2013 02:07 Salv wrote: I am fine with them taking their time before implementing any changes, but what is somewhat irritating is to see David Kim say that the players aren't even close to figuring out the game even though they've already stated before that they just create the units and see what players do with them. Saying that players haven't figured out the game is either a statement that he's in position to make, or they know what works best for the match ups and that contradicts their previous statements.
Well maybe David Kim and the balance teams has some ideas how to use the new units and the players don't use it? I think its fairly impossible to design units without thinking at least of some ideas how to use them.
On March 19 2013 01:32 hellokittySC2 wrote: i don't know *fun to watch* for medivac speed is the correct correlation to balance.
He didn't say medivac speed was fun to watch. He said agressive play is fun to watch, which is true. Agression is better than styles where people just try to get a single advantage and macro their way over their opponent.
What's wrong with econ games...o____O? Aggression isn't always fun to watch.
On March 19 2013 01:44 Orek wrote: Take your time, but don't take too much time like it was for the last 9 months of WoL. Stepping in too early is bad, and doing nothing after the problem is evident is equally bad. DK has a tough job.
+1000
Waiting too long to patch could cause a massive number of non-terran players to quit in frustration. The crack-vacs might be "fun to watch" at the moment, but it will get old. Broodlord/Infestor might have been fun to watch at first too, but it was bad for the game.
The difference is that BL/Infestor was never fun to watch.
On March 19 2013 02:09 TeeTS wrote: agression is nice, but a metagame where you don't go beyond 1base is not. If Blizz wants to increase agressive potential of Z & P I'm fine with it as long as they don't open up additional 1/2 base allin possibilities - the ones that exist are more than enough -_-
Edit: And from my personal ladder experience in addition to what I've seen at MLG, it's very clear that Medivac Speedbooster is too strong!
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
Life is a pretty good example of someone who takes the basic units of Z (Lings and Mutalisks) and turns them into "stronger, agressive attack method potential" units. Leenock also commonly uses drops and Nydus networks as extremely aggressive tactics. However, I would love to see drops/nydus buffed in a way that keeps them at their current state of 'chessyness' but makes them an overall consistent tactic for Zerg players to use. I remember when baneling drops were used by DRG vs P all the time.
I've done a lot of thinking that could give Zerg more early/midgame aggressive tactics: What if Blizz merged the drops & overlord speed upgrades? What if Blizz the merged roach speed and burrow upgrades? What if Blizz increased the speed of corruptors, lowered their health, and gave them the ability to 'corrupt' enemy air units(attach to them and deal light AoE, and they can be targeted, but it also kills the unit it attaches to)? What if Blizz decreased the cost of nydus worms if they are placed ON creep?
Just a couple ideas...
How is cheaper Nydus on creep going to make for more aggression in any matchup other than ZvZ?
Purely theorycrafting here... Maybe Zerg players will place a couple Nydus worms off creep in an aggression position, and also place nydus worms on creep near different bases so they can move across the map even quicker? No idea here...
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
Faster mutalisks with regeneration enabling muta ling baneling play to be more viable. (it already was anyways, just better now). Buffed ultralisks that can two shot marines and are an aggressive unit. 12 range infestor to support ultras. A viper that shuts down defensive units allowing you to be aggressive where previously not possible with speed hydras. Tier 1 burrow.
You did get some new aggressive things, if you choose not to use them that's on you and other Zergs. Life and the top tier Zergs already have started to use them.
As for the metagame, look forward in the next two weeks for oracle dice roll PvT to "evolve" if you can call it that into a match-up where every game is, "did he go oracle? did he build more than 1? or is he doing a different all-in? do i build turrets or no?"
TvZ will be more refined bio+mine play and mech + speed burrow will start cropping up very soon.
As for PvZ, Zergs probably will start using mass drop a lot more considering hydras are better in general.
And a sigh of relief to every Terran play on earth who thought that blizzard would make the mistake of nerfing Terran blindly again. Speed medivacs are already being dealt with quite well by SPEED MUTALISKS and stargate openings from Protoss.
And yes, i'm advocating everyone call them "speed mutalisks" because for some reason everyone is acting as if medivacs were the only unit that received a speed buff which is untrue.
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
I agree. Imo the Nydus should pop out twice as fast. Would make for interesting games. Blizzard waiting it out is smart though, its a dumb idea to patch something after only 1 tournament
What about a nydus upgrade at hive tech that reduces worm tunnel time to like 10 seconds, and doubles unload rate?
On March 19 2013 01:32 hellokittySC2 wrote: i don't know *fun to watch* for medivac speed is the correct correlation to balance.
He didn't say medivac speed was fun to watch. He said agressive play is fun to watch, which is true. Agression is better than styles where people just try to get a single advantage and macro their way over their opponent.
What's wrong with econ games...o____O? Aggression isn't always fun to watch.
True, but econ games are also not always fun to watch. And by the end of WOL we pretty much only had econ games (outside of the standard 'have to cheese once per series' games) as there was no real reason for any race to be aggressive early on. In HOTS, at the moment and mainly for terran and toss, the new aggressive options are nicely complementing strong macro play...and hence is creating exciting games to watch =).
On March 19 2013 01:32 hellokittySC2 wrote: i don't know *fun to watch* for medivac speed is the correct correlation to balance.
He didn't say medivac speed was fun to watch. He said agressive play is fun to watch, which is true. Agression is better than styles where people just try to get a single advantage and macro their way over their opponent.
What's wrong with econ games...o____O? Aggression isn't always fun to watch.
Minerals being mined, minerals being mined, minerals being mined... those are never fun to watch.
Very good response, my thoughts exactly. The only thing I would like them to make changes to is how PvP works if it doesn't get a little more figured out soon. That matchup is currently extremely random.
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
I love the nydus, but it is a free doom drop if it is not spotted. If anything, they should limit the number of units that can be loaded into the nydus at a time and force the player to load and unload. This would require two screen multi tasking and put more of a delay on the nydus dumping out a full army. With that limitation, they could make it more awesome, harder to kill without the risk of it being game ending if it gets up.
i think the best way to change it though is to make nydus hive tech, but not easily deniable just cus you spotted it. Probably by reducing the build time and increase the hp both, and also allow the zerg to cancel building a worm too to get some (not all) money back and so they can start planting another one sooner.
then it also makes more sense for zerg's drop to be just a little better, overlords are kinda slow..maybe allow overseers to drop units, meaning if the zerg wants to have speedier dropships they spend more money and time making overlords into overseers.
I agree with David Kim, obviously recent games have been great I hope he continues to push towards more aggressive play for all races. That also means nothing should be too strong defensively (I'm looking at you automatic siege upgrade for tanks...).
On March 19 2013 01:32 hellokittySC2 wrote: i don't know *fun to watch* for medivac speed is the correct correlation to balance.
He didn't say medivac speed was fun to watch. He said agressive play is fun to watch, which is true. Agression is better than styles where people just try to get a single advantage and macro their way over their opponent.
What's wrong with econ games...o____O? Aggression isn't always fun to watch.
They are taking the right approach. The MLG (and even stream games) of HotS are way better than the last 6 months of WoL. I do think medivacs will eventually have to be toned down a tad, but I'm honestly interested in seeing what pros come up with in the mean time.
People wanted longer games in earlier WoL and we got massive maps as a result. Blizzard is trying to fix this with more aggressive units, and they are simultaneous reducing the giant death ball fights that dominated WoL in the past year or so.
Blizzard might balance the game without nerfing anything. Giving Stalkers bonus damage vs air could help vs speed-vacs, the new mutas, and the new voidrays.
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
I love the nydus, but it is a free doom drop if it is not spotted. If anything, they should limit the number of units that can be loaded into the nydus at a time and force the player to load and unload. This would require two screen multi tasking and put more of a delay on the nydus dumping out a full army. With that limitation, they could make it more awesome, harder to kill without the risk of it being game ending if it gets up.
i think the best way to change it though is to make nydus hive tech, but not easily deniable just cus you spotted it. Probably by reducing the build time and increase the hp both, and also allow the zerg to cancel building a worm too to get some (not all) money back and so they can start planting another one sooner.
then it also makes more sense for zerg's drop to be just a little better, overlords are kinda slow..maybe allow overseers to drop units, meaning if the zerg wants to have speedier dropships they spend more money and time making overlords into overseers.
not bad suggestions, but if you were a terran defending against 2-3 base nydus roach aggression you'd know it's still pretty difficult to defend
3 months before the end of wol that's what half the actual zvt metagame was, at one point.
maybe some hp boost and 25-50% money back on cancelation would be a good place to start
On March 19 2013 01:32 hellokittySC2 wrote: i don't know *fun to watch* for medivac speed is the correct correlation to balance.
He didn't say medivac speed was fun to watch. He said agressive play is fun to watch, which is true. Agression is better than styles where people just try to get a single advantage and macro their way over their opponent.
What's wrong with econ games...o____O? Aggression isn't always fun to watch.
Exaggeration: Purely economic games with no aggression until the final battle (AKA WoL at the end) are so boring for spectators.
One of the reasons why TvT and TvZ are so amazing is that both sides can be incredibly aggressive with drops/mutalisks/runbys AND progress through a macro game.
I think the goal of Blizz is to get all matchups to this stage: constant aggression with multiple armies, a focus on map control, and the ability to macro during all of this. What I mean is that on 1/2 base there is aggression while both players move to 3/4 bases and tech. This makes for the most entertaining games. The occasional cheese off of 1/2 base becomes incredibly entertaining as well. The occasional purely macro game with GIANT armies clashing also becomes incredibly entertaining as well. But when pure cheese (AKA WoL 2010) or pure macro (AKA WoL 2012) is the most common thing to see, people become extremely bored.
On March 19 2013 02:09 TeeTS wrote: agression is nice, but a metagame where you don't go beyond 1base is not. If Blizz wants to increase agressive potential of Z & P I'm fine with it as long as they don't open up additional 1/2 base allin possibilities - the ones that exist are more than enough -_-
Edit: And from my personal ladder experience in addition to what I've seen at MLG, it's very clear that Medivac Speedbooster is too strong!
Most MLG games went past 2 base...
They're talking about creative players coming up with aggressive solutions. The solution MC found was to all-in with Oracles, or cripple with Oracles and follow that up with a 2 base all-in. Basically kill the Terran before he can start multi-dropping. Is that what the future of the game should be?
On March 19 2013 02:07 Salv wrote: I am fine with them taking their time before implementing any changes, but what is somewhat irritating is to see David Kim say that the players aren't even close to figuring out the game even though they've already stated before that they just create the units and see what players do with them. Saying that players haven't figured out the game is either a statement that he's in position to make, or they know what works best for the match ups and that contradicts their previous statements.
I think it was obvious looking at the MC vs Bomber games where MC utilized oracles + Phoenix to keep the terran in his base. Now MC is the kinda player who likes his allins and he pretty much relied on 2 base allins in these games. It would be interesting to see if another protoss can come up with a strat that involves these and transition effectively to late game. Terrans are currently strong due to speedvacs and both Life and MC used air units, Mutas for Life and oracles+phoenix for MC, to keep the terran in his base and snipe drops. If you theory craft it then you realize that if terrans keep losing their medivacs to mutas and phoenix then they can't drop effectively. I think this is a nice dynamic to have. Additionally the new medivacs have a side affect of reducing death ball play. The constant drop harassing means that all races need to split their forces to counter them. I think the problem matchups at the moment are not terran related at all. It seems that protoss have very little answer to Mutas at the moment. Then can go phoenix but unlike with terran where phoenix can atleast kill medivacs, once the mutas die they are dead weight against insta remax zerg army that will follow. Overall I like David Kims wait and see approach. Only thing is when they do get around to balancing I hope its in form of some buffs and not nerfs. Its good and a lot of fun to have powerful game changing abilities in the game. It builds tension and excitement.
On March 19 2013 02:09 TeeTS wrote: agression is nice, but a metagame where you don't go beyond 1base is not. If Blizz wants to increase agressive potential of Z & P I'm fine with it as long as they don't open up additional 1/2 base allin possibilities - the ones that exist are more than enough -_-
Edit: And from my personal ladder experience in addition to what I've seen at MLG, it's very clear that Medivac Speedbooster is too strong!
Most MLG games went past 2 base...
They're talking about creative players coming up with aggressive solutions. The solution MC found was to all-in with Oracles, or cripple with Oracles and follow that up with a 2 base all-in. Basically kill the Terran before he can start multi-dropping. Is that what the future of the game should be?
I mean...obviously it won't be. This is what happens: Player 1 finds a macro strategy emerges and appears to dominate. Then player 2 creates an all-in that appears to dominate player 1's macro strategy. Then player 1 adapts and stops the idea. Then the metagame starts to form...
First of all, these thoughts are the perfect response. I agree 100% with DK on this one.
Secondly, as a Terran, I would be okay with a buff to Nydus exit creation time, and I also really like the idea of a unit number cap on the load/unload ability for the worm. I think that would allow both more creative Zerg aggression (multiple Nydus at once to get at least one into the base, for instance) while encouraging smarter overall play by opponents (depots/pylons/overlords ensuring coverage of all base corners so as to help deny possible Nyduses and necessitating as quick a reaction time as when dealing with drops to deal with the worms).
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
I love the nydus, but it is a free doom drop if it is not spotted. If anything, they should limit the number of units that can be loaded into the nydus at a time and force the player to load and unload. This would require two screen multi tasking and put more of a delay on the nydus dumping out a full army. With that limitation, they could make it more awesome, harder to kill without the risk of it being game ending if it gets up.
i think the best way to change it though is to make nydus hive tech, but not easily deniable just cus you spotted it. Probably by reducing the build time and increase the hp both, and also allow the zerg to cancel building a worm too to get some (not all) money back and so they can start planting another one sooner.
then it also makes more sense for zerg's drop to be just a little better, overlords are kinda slow..maybe allow overseers to drop units, meaning if the zerg wants to have speedier dropships they spend more money and time making overlords into overseers.
Nydus hive tech makes no sense. How can you talk about ways to make more aggressive games and Hive tech in the same sentence?
GSTL pre HOTS tournament, IEM and the recent MLG were all a real treat to watch! HOTS has certainly brought a breath of fresh air into the stagnant WOL. Waiting a bit for strategies and counter-strategies is the appropriate thing to do for now.
On March 19 2013 02:09 TeeTS wrote: agression is nice, but a metagame where you don't go beyond 1base is not. If Blizz wants to increase agressive potential of Z & P I'm fine with it as long as they don't open up additional 1/2 base allin possibilities - the ones that exist are more than enough -_-
Edit: And from my personal ladder experience in addition to what I've seen at MLG, it's very clear that Medivac Speedbooster is too strong!
Most MLG games went past 2 base...
They're talking about creative players coming up with aggressive solutions. The solution MC found was to all-in with Oracles, or cripple with Oracles and follow that up with a 2 base all-in. Basically kill the Terran before he can start multi-dropping. Is that what the future of the game should be?
Protoss early and Protoss late were always very, very strong - besides, MC is not a stranger to this kind of play. Also, if as a Terran player you die to aggression, doesn't that mean you'll play more defensive and in the end the metagame will balance itself out?
Protoss mid in HotS is, I guess we can agree, the problem - but at the same time, Ps are stuck in WoL mindset where they're still going 2 Forge, Twilight, Robo Bay and Templar Archives at the same time, go behind 40 supply then wonder why they can't defend anything.
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
I love the nydus, but it is a free doom drop if it is not spotted. If anything, they should limit the number of units that can be loaded into the nydus at a time and force the player to load and unload. This would require two screen multi tasking and put more of a delay on the nydus dumping out a full army. With that limitation, they could make it more awesome, harder to kill without the risk of it being game ending if it gets up.
i think the best way to change it though is to make nydus hive tech, but not easily deniable just cus you spotted it. Probably by reducing the build time and increase the hp both, and also allow the zerg to cancel building a worm too to get some (not all) money back and so they can start planting another one sooner.
then it also makes more sense for zerg's drop to be just a little better, overlords are kinda slow..maybe allow overseers to drop units, meaning if the zerg wants to have speedier dropships they spend more money and time making overlords into overseers.
Nydus hive tech makes no sense. How can you talk about ways to make more aggressive games and Hive tech in the same sentence?
not sure what you mean..if you're referring to how pre-hive wouldn't be aggressive, that's partly why I also suggested an improvement to drop (overseer drop) at lair tech.
and many games at hive tech can lead to a strong/slow army, turtle type of game..the nydus would really help that.
On March 19 2013 02:09 TeeTS wrote: agression is nice, but a metagame where you don't go beyond 1base is not. If Blizz wants to increase agressive potential of Z & P I'm fine with it as long as they don't open up additional 1/2 base allin possibilities - the ones that exist are more than enough -_-
Edit: And from my personal ladder experience in addition to what I've seen at MLG, it's very clear that Medivac Speedbooster is too strong!
Most MLG games went past 2 base...
They're talking about creative players coming up with aggressive solutions. The solution MC found was to all-in with Oracles, or cripple with Oracles and follow that up with a 2 base all-in. Basically kill the Terran before he can start multi-dropping. Is that what the future of the game should be?
I mean...obviously it won't be. This is what happens: Player 1 finds a macro strategy emerges and appears to dominate. Then player 2 creates an all-in that appears to dominate player 1's macro strategy. Then player 1 adapts and stops the idea. Then the metagame starts to form...
That's the problem. They're pretending as if a solution to speedvacs was found, when in fact the strategy is to kill Terran before mass drops become a factor. This means once the counter is found and Terran can live long enough to get to that stage, it's back at square 1, nothing has changed.
It's the same as telling Zerg to just kill Toss before they get to Skytoss. For a while, people will find ways to do it, then people will find ways to safely get there, and the problem still remains.
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
Faster mutalisks with regeneration enabling muta ling baneling play to be more viable. (it already was anyways, just better now). Buffed ultralisks that can two shot marines and are an aggressive unit. 12 range infestor to support ultras. A viper that shuts down defensive units allowing you to be aggressive where previously not possible with speed hydras. Tier 1 burrow.
You did get some new aggressive things, if you choose not to use them that's on you and other Zergs. Life and the top tier Zergs already have started to use them.
As for the metagame, look forward in the next two weeks for oracle dice roll PvT to "evolve" if you can call it that into a match-up where every game is, "did he go oracle? did he build more than 1? or is he doing a different all-in? do i build turrets or no?"
TvZ will be more refined bio+mine play and mech + speed burrow will start cropping up very soon.
As for PvZ, Zergs probably will start using mass drop a lot more considering hydras are better in general.
And a sigh of relief to every Terran play on earth who thought that blizzard would make the mistake of nerfing Terran blindly again. Speed medivacs are already being dealt with quite well by SPEED MUTALISKS and stargate openings from Protoss.
And yes, i'm advocating everyone call them "speed mutalisks" because for some reason everyone is acting as if medivacs were the only unit that received a speed buff which is untrue.
I think he wishes there was a way to make ground units more consistent in the early/mid/late game in a similar way that Terran gets to do that with Speedvacs. Like I posted earlier in this thread, I think that overlord speed and overlord drops should be merged into the same upgrade. Maybe Blizz could give overlords a hive tech upgrade as well that makes them more durable. This is from a spectators perspective. I want to see MORE drops like the Innovation v Flash match, IN ALL MATCHUPS.
I think Kim's statement is spot on. Obviously if there is a balance issue it must be addressed eventually, but it would be great if the current aggressive metagame could be maintained. It's so much fun to watch and play HotS right now.
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
I love the nydus, but it is a free doom drop if it is not spotted. If anything, they should limit the number of units that can be loaded into the nydus at a time and force the player to load and unload. This would require two screen multi tasking and put more of a delay on the nydus dumping out a full army. With that limitation, they could make it more awesome, harder to kill without the risk of it being game ending if it gets up.
i think the best way to change it though is to make nydus hive tech, but not easily deniable just cus you spotted it. Probably by reducing the build time and increase the hp both, and also allow the zerg to cancel building a worm too to get some (not all) money back and so they can start planting another one sooner.
then it also makes more sense for zerg's drop to be just a little better, overlords are kinda slow..maybe allow overseers to drop units, meaning if the zerg wants to have speedier dropships they spend more money and time making overlords into overseers.
I completely agree with this, nydus on lair tech often seems all in and gimmicky, while nydus in the mid-late game has a lot of potential for connecting bases and multi-pronged harass, but is easily shut down anywhere the protoss has vision. I also like the overseer drop idea.
Another issue with nydus worms is that all units load and unload at the same speed. This results in large units like ultralisks unloading very quickly and speedlings and banelings unloading very slowly. I think the unload speeds should be adjusted based on cargo space.
Personally think you guys are being to focused on drop play as being aggressive. I'd say stuff such as the oracle and the new mutas are exactly the way to go. There are ofcourse possibilities for more aggressive variations, but I just don't like it when people make it sound like especially zerg can't be aggressive(protoss I feel are more allin with their aggression).
On March 19 2013 02:24 Salient wrote: Blizzard might balance the game without nerfing anything. Giving Stalkers bonus damage vs air could help vs speed-vacs, the new mutas, and the new voidrays.
wrong, stronger stalkers will hurt Terran and Zerg so badly especially when Toss can protect carriers, mothership and colossus so much easier. Stalker is already good vs air, it doesn't need anymore upgrade.
On March 19 2013 02:09 TeeTS wrote: agression is nice, but a metagame where you don't go beyond 1base is not. If Blizz wants to increase agressive potential of Z & P I'm fine with it as long as they don't open up additional 1/2 base allin possibilities - the ones that exist are more than enough -_-
Edit: And from my personal ladder experience in addition to what I've seen at MLG, it's very clear that Medivac Speedbooster is too strong!
Most MLG games went past 2 base...
They're talking about creative players coming up with aggressive solutions. The solution MC found was to all-in with Oracles, or cripple with Oracles and follow that up with a 2 base all-in. Basically kill the Terran before he can start multi-dropping. Is that what the future of the game should be?
I mean...obviously it won't be. This is what happens: Player 1 finds a macro strategy emerges and appears to dominate. Then player 2 creates an all-in that appears to dominate player 1's macro strategy. Then player 1 adapts and stops the idea. Then the metagame starts to form...
That's the problem. They're pretending as if a solution to speedvacs was found, when in fact the strategy is to kill Terran before mass drops become a factor. This means once the counter is found and Terran can live long enough to get to that stage, it's back at square 1, nothing has changed.
It's the same as telling Zerg, just kill Toss before they get to Skytoss. For a while, people will find ways to do it, then people will find ways to safely get there, and the problem still remains.
Actually if you think about it Terrans died to oracle + 2 base allin since they were all rushing to medivacs using bunkers + marines for defense. If they invest in some mines and turrets they are safe against this. However that delays the medivacs which in turn allows protoss some more time to get their tech up to defend better against the multi dropping that will follow. I think thats what this will develop into.
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
Faster mutalisks with regeneration enabling muta ling baneling play to be more viable. (it already was anyways, just better now). Buffed ultralisks that can two shot marines and are an aggressive unit. 12 range infestor to support ultras. A viper that shuts down defensive units allowing you to be aggressive where previously not possible with speed hydras. Tier 1 burrow.
You did get some new aggressive things, if you choose not to use them that's on you and other Zergs. Life and the top tier Zergs already have started to use them.
As for the metagame, look forward in the next two weeks for oracle dice roll PvT to "evolve" if you can call it that into a match-up where every game is, "did he go oracle? did he build more than 1? or is he doing a different all-in? do i build turrets or no?"
TvZ will be more refined bio+mine play and mech + speed burrow will start cropping up very soon.
As for PvZ, Zergs probably will start using mass drop a lot more considering hydras are better in general.
And a sigh of relief to every Terran play on earth who thought that blizzard would make the mistake of nerfing Terran blindly again. Speed medivacs are already being dealt with quite well by SPEED MUTALISKS and stargate openings from Protoss.
And yes, i'm advocating everyone call them "speed mutalisks" because for some reason everyone is acting as if medivacs were the only unit that received a speed buff which is untrue.
I think he wishes there was a way to make ground units more consistent in the early/mid/late game in a similar way that Terran gets to do that with Speedvacs. Like I posted earlier in this thread, I think that overlord speed and overlord drops should be merged into the same upgrade. Maybe Blizz could give overlords a hive tech upgrade as well that makes them more durable. This is from a spectators perspective. I want to see MORE drops like the Innovation v Flash match, IN ALL MATCHUPS.
There are very effective roach/ling aggro options, roach/baneling bust, ling/bane bust, roach burrow, ling/bane with fast burrow for baneling mines.
There's quite a bit of Zerg aggression that was always there it's just some players opt to never do it because they think it's too risky when the more abusive Zergs will do "all-ins" like this quite often because if you kill at least 8 SCVS (which you often can) then you equalize or are ahead with not much drawback.
And then there's mutas :D they're faster. Oh and overlord speed is tier1, it's almost a form of indirect aggression or passive-aggro when you see speed overlords flying around your base like 5 min in and laying creep at every expo on the map lol.
Way to fix medivacs and still retain its purpose and aggressive use.
1. Remove cooldown with afterburners (so you can use it right after another one is finished) 2. When medivac is done you get three (3) times to use it. 3. Recharge costs of half your medivac energy to get 3 more.
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
Faster mutalisks with regeneration enabling muta ling baneling play to be more viable. (it already was anyways, just better now). Buffed ultralisks that can two shot marines and are an aggressive unit. 12 range infestor to support ultras. A viper that shuts down defensive units allowing you to be aggressive where previously not possible with speed hydras. Tier 1 burrow.
You did get some new aggressive things, if you choose not to use them that's on you and other Zergs. Life and the top tier Zergs already have started to use them.
As for the metagame, look forward in the next two weeks for oracle dice roll PvT to "evolve" if you can call it that into a match-up where every game is, "did he go oracle? did he build more than 1? or is he doing a different all-in? do i build turrets or no?"
TvZ will be more refined bio+mine play and mech + speed burrow will start cropping up very soon.
As for PvZ, Zergs probably will start using mass drop a lot more considering hydras are better in general.
And a sigh of relief to every Terran play on earth who thought that blizzard would make the mistake of nerfing Terran blindly again. Speed medivacs are already being dealt with quite well by SPEED MUTALISKS and stargate openings from Protoss.
And yes, i'm advocating everyone call them "speed mutalisks" because for some reason everyone is acting as if medivacs were the only unit that received a speed buff which is untrue.
I think he wishes there was a way to make ground units more consistent in the early/mid/late game in a similar way that Terran gets to do that with Speedvacs. Like I posted earlier in this thread, I think that overlord speed and overlord drops should be merged into the same upgrade. Maybe Blizz could give overlords a hive tech upgrade as well that makes them more durable. This is from a spectators perspective. I want to see MORE drops like the Innovation v Flash match, IN ALL MATCHUPS.
There are very effective roach/ling aggro options, roach/baneling bust, ling/bane bust, roach burrow, ling/bane with fast burrow for baneling mines.
There's quite a bit of Zerg aggression that was always there it's just some players opt to never do it because they think it's too risky when the more abusive Zergs will do "all-ins" like this quite often because if you kill at least 8 SCVS (which you often can) then you equalize or are ahead with not much drawback.
And then there's mutas :D they're faster. Oh and overlord speed is tier1, it's almost a form of indirect aggression or passive-aggro when you see speed overlords flying around your base like 5 min in and laying creep at every expo on the map lol.
sorry should have been more clear, I meant a stronger potential in transports..similar to warp prism buff in WoL and speed boost in medivac.
also can you stop calling Fungal 12 range it's a little misleading as at range 12 you're only able to fungal like 1 unit (fyi he's combining range of fungal, with radius of the fungal spell). it's like saying psi storm is 10.5 range but only hits 1 unit at that range -_-
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
Faster mutalisks with regeneration enabling muta ling baneling play to be more viable. (it already was anyways, just better now). Buffed ultralisks that can two shot marines and are an aggressive unit. 12 range infestor to support ultras. A viper that shuts down defensive units allowing you to be aggressive where previously not possible with speed hydras. Tier 1 burrow.
You did get some new aggressive things, if you choose not to use them that's on you and other Zergs. Life and the top tier Zergs already have started to use them.
As for the metagame, look forward in the next two weeks for oracle dice roll PvT to "evolve" if you can call it that into a match-up where every game is, "did he go oracle? did he build more than 1? or is he doing a different all-in? do i build turrets or no?"
TvZ will be more refined bio+mine play and mech + speed burrow will start cropping up very soon.
As for PvZ, Zergs probably will start using mass drop a lot more considering hydras are better in general.
And a sigh of relief to every Terran play on earth who thought that blizzard would make the mistake of nerfing Terran blindly again. Speed medivacs are already being dealt with quite well by SPEED MUTALISKS and stargate openings from Protoss.
And yes, i'm advocating everyone call them "speed mutalisks" because for some reason everyone is acting as if medivacs were the only unit that received a speed buff which is untrue.
I think he wishes there was a way to make ground units more consistent in the early/mid/late game in a similar way that Terran gets to do that with Speedvacs. Like I posted earlier in this thread, I think that overlord speed and overlord drops should be merged into the same upgrade. Maybe Blizz could give overlords a hive tech upgrade as well that makes them more durable. This is from a spectators perspective. I want to see MORE drops like the Innovation v Flash match, IN ALL MATCHUPS.
There are very effective roach/ling aggro options, roach/baneling bust, ling/bane bust, roach burrow, ling/bane with fast burrow for baneling mines.
There's quite a bit of Zerg aggression that was always there it's just some players opt to never do it because they think it's too risky when the more abusive Zergs will do "all-ins" like this quite often because if you kill at least 8 SCVS (which you often can) then you equalize or are ahead with not much drawback.
And then there's mutas :D they're faster. Oh and overlord speed is tier1, it's almost a form of indirect aggression or passive-aggro when you see speed overlords flying around your base like 5 min in and laying creep at every expo on the map lol.
Mutalisks and ling runbys are great for spectators in the same way that speedvacs are. But at some point mutalisks and lings lose their aggressive capabilities where speedvacs don't. I just wish there was a way for Zerg to keep that aggressive capability beyond hive tech and 3/3 marines. I truly believe that this potential lies in overlords/burrow. As for roach/bane and bane busts. These really aren't the aggression tactics that spectators love. They are the equivalent to 4 medivac timings vs P or gateway timings v T. My point is that in that situation if T is unable to do damage with that 4 medivac push at 10 minutes, he can take a step back and be aggressive in multiple spots. I want to see Z unable to do damage with that roach bane, and be able to take a step back and transition into more capable drops or burrow. You know what I mean? It's great for spectators when they can back off an be aggressive later.
This brings me to my next point. Warp prisms for P could use little help as well
heres my nydus redesign idea since many people in here seem to be talking about a "possible more exciting nydus, but still balanced with lots of aggression"
fast cheap tactical strikes. big scary doomworms just blasting your enemies mainbase and wrecking havock on him
thats what nydus was meant to be!
100/50 cost to plop 12 zergslings in your enemies mainbase. when you feel the times right (with 60 second charges) and the nydus gets stronger every 30 seconds
Nydus redesigned. Zerg can now only have 1 nydus network alive (like mothership).
nydus network costs 50/100
Nydus networks spawn with 1 charge. Every 60 seconds they get a new charge (max of 2 charges). Cooldown stops counting if 2 charges are reached (begins once a charge is used)
Spawn nydus worm uses a charge to cast (no cooldown). Costs 100/50 to use. May be placed ANYWHERE without vision needed. If building is blocking it says "cannot place". If unit is blocking it pushes the unit
Nydus worms now spawn INSTANTLY (no buildtime)
Nydus worms spawn with 6 charges. Each charge lets them unload 1 food (zerglings deplete half a charge per unload). They gain 6 charges every 30 seconds (max of 24). Unload may be put on autocast. Theres a "big unload" button which gives highest food units priority
Nydus worm may need health reduction.
ALSO, i realize this new nydus is pretty powerful and maybe needs other balancing nerfs as well
Here is one idea i have. Possibly make it so NYDUS WORMS are always permanently revealed to the enemy (like when you have no nexus). this could give the slight nerf mass nydus might need to make it possible to move out on the map against them
Also zergs tumoring the map might be OP with this nydus. Possibly make it so nydus worms no longer make creep. This means a zerg needs to spend another 75 minerals (proxy hatch) to get down a proxy tumor which IMO seems ok to me since he also uses 3 charges on the nydus worm to do it.
There should be no balance changes until after the first Hots GSL, which ends in mid May. Changing anything after this tournament would be just stupid. If they want to test things on the PTR though, that's fine.
Just add scorges, they would fix zerg problems in every matchup:
vs Terran: Even though speed medivacs aren't the main concern of zvt atm, it's still a fact that even if you go muta you get to shoot them a few times and then they just boost away, thus while you can deflect drops you can't punish terran, with scorges if you c onnect once you should be able to kill the medivac. Plus it would make all the boosting away in your medivacs after taking a bad engagement a lot harder to do.
vs Protoss: Corrupters are trash vs void rays and hydras get stormed away, we saw at iem that void rays clump like fuck so fungal is a good tool (though feedback can deal with that as well), I feel like fungal + scourge should give zerg a fair chance vs air toss. Should also help a lot with speed prisms, and make muta vs phoenix a lot more dynamic then range phoenix killing all the mutas while corrupters are too slow to catch up.
vs Zerg: Right now muta vs muta in zvz is who has more, sometimes there is an upgrade timing, sometimes having your lings soak up some bounces helps, scourge would obviously make the matchup way way more interesting, and I feel like fungal + scourge would open up non-muta based armies too.
Obviously you can't just add supply free cheap as fuck bw scourges into a game with larva inject, but I feel like if tweaked right they would help out zerg a lot atm. Sadly blizzard will never add a unit via patch so we'll have to wait till legacy of the void...
Other than that, good to hear that they are actually smart and wait now, I feel like a lot of earlier star 2 patches were made without much thought and giving the game time to balance out, I really thought we'd see a medivac nerf this/next week, but I'm super happy they chill and wait.
On March 19 2013 02:56 Lorch wrote: Just add scorges, they would fix zerg problems in every matchup:
vs Terran: Even though speed medivacs aren't the main concern of zvt atm, it's still a fact that even if you go muta you get to shoot them a few times and then they just boost away, thus while you can deflect drops you can't punish terran, with scorges if you c onnect once you should be able to kill the medivac. Plus it would make all the boosting away in your medivacs after taking a bad engagement a lot harder to do.
vs Protoss: Corrupters are trash vs void rays and hydras get stormed away, we saw at iem that void rays clump like fuck so fungal is a good tool (though feedback can deal with that as well), I feel like fungal + scourge should give zerg a fair chance vs air toss. Should also help a lot with speed prisms, and make muta vs phoenix a lot more dynamic then range phoenix killing all the mutas while corrupters are too slow to catch up.
vs Zerg: Right now muta vs muta in zvz is who has more, sometimes there is an upgrade timing, sometimes having your lings soak up some bounces helps, scourge would obviously make the matchup way way more interesting, and I feel like fungal + scourge would open up non-muta based armies too.
Obviously you can't just add supply free cheap as fuck bw scourges into a game with larva inject, but I feel like if tweaked right they would help out zerg a lot atm. Sadly blizzard will never add a unit via patch so we'll have to wait till legacy of the void...
I really wish Blizz had just removed Corruptors and added Scourge in HotS. Sighhh hopefully in LotV
On March 19 2013 02:42 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Way to fix medivacs and still retain its purpose and aggressive use.
1. Remove cooldown with afterburners (so you can use it right after another one is finished) 2. When medivac is done you get three (3) times to use it. 3. Recharge costs of half your medivac energy to get 3 more.
Buff and nerf same time
or why not just link it to energy directly and play with the numbers instead of some weird system? make it like every other spell in the game ;P
On March 19 2013 02:49 Porishan wrote: I feel this thread will become ' How to nerf Medivac Afterburn ' thread which is really bad
Would you prefer us to mindlessly praise HoTS as BW reborn and amazing while meanwhile being superior to BW? There's a primal sort of defensiveness with the SC2 community with regard to its game. A sort of insecurity that any mention of something that might be bad about the game. Mix that in with an anxiety regarding LoL and it leads to a weird sort of collective schizophrenia.
So they're aware something isn't quite right but the game is so complex that it isn't obviously a problem yet.
On March 19 2013 01:38 LgNKami wrote: I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction.
Agreed, or people who want to do one build forever. I have a friend who is super pissed he can't always take a fast third(as zerg) against terran every game because of widow mines. He acts like it is the end of the world, but I know that he is just grumpy that he can't macro his way to A-move glory.
Personally, I'm really bad at two control groups on two different screens, but I am willing to work on that if it means I don't have play the tutle game any more.
Ive had people rage at me in masters, and i mean like really crazy rage all caps 20+ lines about me being an "all in faggot" when they take a fourth cc from 7 marines and a tank then go straight 4-5 factory mech in front of my observers without ever scanning or pressuring me and i kill them. Apparently i was supposed to react by taking a fourth nexus at 7:30, who would have known.
On March 19 2013 02:42 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Way to fix medivacs and still retain its purpose and aggressive use.
1. Remove cooldown with afterburners (so you can use it right after another one is finished) 2. When medivac is done you get three (3) times to use it. 3. Recharge costs of half your medivac energy to get 3 more.
Buff and nerf same time
or why not just link it to energy directly and play with the numbers instead of some weird system? make it like every other spell in the game ;P
Because this requires more clicking (which increases micromanagement+fail possibilities) plus you can escape with your medivac if feedbacked (if charges left) or used all for healing.
On March 19 2013 01:40 TimENT wrote: Some things I'd love to see from Blizz regarding 'super aggressive play' that is extremely fun to watch:
-Corruptors are SO boring in the game at the moment. Please implement a change that makes them powerful from a players point of view, and captivating to watch as an audience member. This could also affect Mutafests in ZvZ, speedvacs, and airtoss.
-Warp Prisms have so much potential! Maybe increase their pre-upgrade speed and make their speed upgrade cheaper/earlier?
-Void rays are also SO boring to watch. Their 'micro potential' really isn't very interesting. As with corruptors, please implement a change that makes them powerful from a players point of view, and captivating to watch as an audience member.
-Some way to keep nydus worms the same in games where the Zerg cheeses, but make them more usable throughout the game in general.
They've mentioned before that they are always looking at the corruptor and agree that it's a boring unit that Zergs hate to use unless going Broodlords and have no choice. Unfortunately it looks like they can't find a solution for it.
Most good Protoss use warp prisms all the time.
Void Rays are more interesting now than before, but yeah some more micro potential for the skill would be nice.
Nydus is BW required creep to be built and that's why it was so cheap. In SC2 you only need vision, so making it cheaper would break it. Maybe make it cheaper to be built on creep but more expensive out of it?
Also here is my idea make corrupters exciting
1) Corruption removed
2) new ability added. Reality Rift. The corrupter stands still and channels the ability to 3 seconds, after which it instantly teleports to any location on the map. Infinite range, no vision required, 3 minute cooldown.
3) broodlord morph time reduced to 10 seconds.
Would this REALLY be OP? I dont know. But would add a cool element of rifting corrupters and putting 1-2 broodlords at an expansion really quickly causing some havock.
If they decrease medivac's health by 10-15 it would make such a big deal. I wish they would think about doing this. So many MLG games where the terran was forcing their opponent in their base with just medivacs. They always got away with like 4-8 hp. If a change like this was made, one or two of them died during the game(s), it might be the changed needed to help players not be overwhelmed by drops and make the medivacs a tiny bit less cost effective without completely breaking them.
On March 19 2013 02:42 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Way to fix medivacs and still retain its purpose and aggressive use.
1. Remove cooldown with afterburners (so you can use it right after another one is finished) 2. When medivac is done you get three (3) times to use it. 3. Recharge costs of half your medivac energy to get 3 more.
Buff and nerf same time
or why not just link it to energy directly and play with the numbers instead of some weird system? make it like every other spell in the game ;P
Because this requires more clicking (which increases micromanagement+fail possibilities) plus you can escape with your medivac if feedbacked (if charges left) or used all for healing.
On March 19 2013 01:38 LgNKami wrote: I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction.
God bless you for saying what I didn't dare to. I love playing aggressively, and every time I succeeded with it on ladder I was accused of cheese, even when I scouted poor defense and then simply punished it.
On March 19 2013 02:42 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Way to fix medivacs and still retain its purpose and aggressive use.
1. Remove cooldown with afterburners (so you can use it right after another one is finished) 2. When medivac is done you get three (3) times to use it. 3. Recharge costs of half your medivac energy to get 3 more.
Buff and nerf same time
or why not just link it to energy directly and play with the numbers instead of some weird system? make it like every other spell in the game ;P
Because this requires more clicking (which increases micromanagement+fail possibilities) plus you can escape with your medivac if feedbacked (if charges left) or used all for healing.
I fail to see how that is a problem.
You don't want to counter afterburn that easily by just draining its mana out (then it loses its purpose and not impressive anymore). Three charges gives BW feeling like vultures did.
On March 19 2013 03:02 LOveRH wrote: If they decrease medivac's health by 10-15 it would make such a big deal. I wish they would think about doing this. So many MLG games where the terran was forcing their opponent in their base with just medivacs. They always got away with like 4-8 hp. If a change like this was made, one or two of them died during the game(s), it might be the changed needed to help players not be overwhelmed by drops and make the medivacs a tiny bit less cost effective without completely breaking them.
I don't think so, it only rarely happens that medivacs get close to dying right now.
On March 19 2013 02:42 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Way to fix medivacs and still retain its purpose and aggressive use.
1. Remove cooldown with afterburners (so you can use it right after another one is finished) 2. When medivac is done you get three (3) times to use it. 3. Recharge costs of half your medivac energy to get 3 more.
Buff and nerf same time
or why not just link it to energy directly and play with the numbers instead of some weird system? make it like every other spell in the game ;P
Because this requires more clicking (which increases micromanagement+fail possibilities) plus you can escape with your medivac if feedbacked (if charges left) or used all for healing.
I fail to see how that is a problem.
You don't want to counter afterburn that easily by just draining its mana out (then it loses its purpose and not impressive anymore). Three charges gives BW feeling like vultures did.
Why do you even feel there's a need to change things?
Balance should be based on the absolute top professionals, not on the average pro-ladder player, and from what we've seen at MLG Life/MC manage to deal with it fine (and he'll likely get better at it with more practice). Muta's seem perfectly capable of dealing with medivacs, they get a slight speed advantage during boost but are at a severe disadvantage afterwards, so overextending with medivacs/base drops are still risky.
One thing they also got right, less deathballs. All the aggression really does cut down on it. I'm not sure I can go back to watching 12 min macro 200/200 into 1 battle deathballs ever again. Not that they were ever interesting, but thank god it's slowly going away.
On March 19 2013 01:38 LgNKami wrote: I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction.
God bless you for saying what I didn't dare to. I love playing aggressively, and every time I succeeded with it on ladder I was accused of cheese, even when I scouted poor defense and then simply punished it.
It's easy for Terran players to say that at the moment. But imagine if Blizzard decided to give Colossi an ability to move twice as quickly because that would be "exciting" to watch. Protoss would open fast collasi and run up and cliffs at breakneck special speeds. Terrans would complain, and some trollish Toss players would tell them to adapt by scouting and opening with vikings.
I saw someone suggest that Medivacs could take bonus damage (+10%? 50%? 100%? Numbers to play with) while boosting, so it's a riskier move to drop over/past defenses or in battles, but could still be done. If I had to make a choice on a medivac change, that'd be the one I'd look into.
However, like several people have said, it's good that they'll wait a bit to see where HotS goes. Current concerns might be jokes in a few months, depending on where the game goes. And I'm looking forward to seeing that.
On March 19 2013 01:38 LgNKami wrote: I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction.
God bless you for saying what I didn't dare to. I love playing aggressively, and every time I succeeded with it on ladder I was accused of cheese, even when I scouted poor defense and then simply punished it.
It's easy for Terran players to say that at the moment. But imagine if Blizzard decided to give Colossi an ability to move twice as quickly because that would be "exciting" to watch. Protoss would open fast collasi and run up and cliffs at breakneck special speeds. Terrans would complain, and some trollish Toss players would tell them to adapt by scouting and opening with vikings.
What kind of messed up comparison is that? Speedmedivacs are obviously fine, mc crushed drop play, so it's not imbalance, it's as he said, most of us are s till playing wol and try to deal with drops as you would in wol, which is obviously not working out, they are just a new tool to punish bad players even more, which is obviously working out greatly given all the bad players complaining. Just because you keep dieing to it in your shitty masters division doesn't mean it's imba, chances are it means you suck.
On March 19 2013 03:15 Tobblish wrote: Thankfully they are having the laid back approach like we wished for. Swinging the nerfbat after two weeks is stupid.
Can't wait for what the more innovating players will come up with.
yeahyeah, we're in less than one week after release (in europe at least). There is no reason to overreact, but I don't see a lot of answers for speedivacs other than all-ins before they're out. D:
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
I love the nydus, but it is a free doom drop if it is not spotted. If anything, they should limit the number of units that can be loaded into the nydus at a time and force the player to load and unload. This would require two screen multi tasking and put more of a delay on the nydus dumping out a full army. With that limitation, they could make it more awesome, harder to kill without the risk of it being game ending if it gets up.
i think the best way to change it though is to make nydus hive tech, but not easily deniable just cus you spotted it. Probably by reducing the build time and increase the hp both, and also allow the zerg to cancel building a worm too to get some (not all) money back and so they can start planting another one sooner.
then it also makes more sense for zerg's drop to be just a little better, overlords are kinda slow..maybe allow overseers to drop units, meaning if the zerg wants to have speedier dropships they spend more money and time making overlords into overseers.
I read the following suggestion on reddit: allow nydus worms to benefit from ground carapace, this way workers won't kill them anymore in late-game. It's a very non-intrusive change, but with potentially good long-term effects.
On March 19 2013 03:15 Tobblish wrote: Thankfully they are having the laid back approach like we wished for. Swinging the nerfbat after two weeks is stupid.
Can't wait for what the more innovating players will come up with.
yeahyeah, we're in less than one week after release (in europe at least). There is no reason to overreact, but I don't see a lot of answers for speedivacs other than all-ins before they're out. D:
Life showed that aggression with mutas was successful. MC showed a true Hots build order, Rain them off with his micro and positioning.
I think the answers are already here. If people want to play WoL and throw in the towel thats fine by me.
On March 19 2013 01:38 LgNKami wrote: I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction.
God bless you for saying what I didn't dare to. I love playing aggressively, and every time I succeeded with it on ladder I was accused of cheese, even when I scouted poor defense and then simply punished it.
It's easy for Terran players to say that at the moment. But imagine if Blizzard decided to give Colossi an ability to move twice as quickly because that would be "exciting" to watch. Protoss would open fast collasi and run up and cliffs at breakneck special speeds. Terrans would complain, and some trollish Toss players would tell them to adapt by scouting and opening with vikings.
What kind of messed up comparison is that? Speedmedivacs are obviously fine, mc crushed drop play, so it's not imbalance, it's as he said, most of us are s till playing wol and try to deal with drops as you would in wol, which is obviously not working out, they are just a new tool to punish bad players even more, which is obviously working out greatly given all the bad players complaining. Just because you keep dieing to it in your shitty masters division doesn't mean it's imba, chances are it means you suck.
PartinG, Rain, and Creator were pwnd by the new medevacs. MC did better with all ins. All ins and timing attacks are a way of avoiding the problem, not a long term solution.
On March 19 2013 02:56 Lorch wrote: Just add scorges, they would fix zerg problems in every matchup:
vs Terran: Even though speed medivacs aren't the main concern of zvt atm, it's still a fact that even if you go muta you get to shoot them a few times and then they just boost away, thus while you can deflect drops you can't punish terran, with scorges if you c onnect once you should be able to kill the medivac. Plus it would make all the boosting away in your medivacs after taking a bad engagement a lot harder to do.
vs Protoss: Corrupters are trash vs void rays and hydras get stormed away, we saw at iem that void rays clump like fuck so fungal is a good tool (though feedback can deal with that as well), I feel like fungal + scourge should give zerg a fair chance vs air toss. Should also help a lot with speed prisms, and make muta vs phoenix a lot more dynamic then range phoenix killing all the mutas while corrupters are too slow to catch up.
vs Zerg: Right now muta vs muta in zvz is who has more, sometimes there is an upgrade timing, sometimes having your lings soak up some bounces helps, scourge would obviously make the matchup way way more interesting, and I feel like fungal + scourge would open up non-muta based armies too.
Obviously you can't just add supply free cheap as fuck bw scourges into a game with larva inject, but I feel like if tweaked right they would help out zerg a lot atm. Sadly blizzard will never add a unit via patch so we'll have to wait till legacy of the void...
Other than that, good to hear that they are actually smart and wait now, I feel like a lot of earlier star 2 patches were made without much thought and giving the game time to balance out, I really thought we'd see a medivac nerf this/next week, but I'm super happy they chill and wait.
It's annoying since they talked about removing the corrupter earlier since it was boring yet its still the same boring unit and zerg got zero new anti air.
Good statement from DK. These MLG games were some of the best sc2 I've ever seen and it was clearly because of all the newfound aggression/action, which is caused by the new medivacs.
I just wish they would just add lurkers and/or impalers to mp, those felt so cool in the campaign and are definitely more enjoyable to watch and use than swarm hosts. (And I never played bw, so this isn't some elitist thing.) But I guess there's no realistic chance of that happening.
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
I love the nydus, but it is a free doom drop if it is not spotted. If anything, they should limit the number of units that can be loaded into the nydus at a time and force the player to load and unload. This would require two screen multi tasking and put more of a delay on the nydus dumping out a full army. With that limitation, they could make it more awesome, harder to kill without the risk of it being game ending if it gets up.
i think the best way to change it though is to make nydus hive tech, but not easily deniable just cus you spotted it. Probably by reducing the build time and increase the hp both, and also allow the zerg to cancel building a worm too to get some (not all) money back and so they can start planting another one sooner.
then it also makes more sense for zerg's drop to be just a little better, overlords are kinda slow..maybe allow overseers to drop units, meaning if the zerg wants to have speedier dropships they spend more money and time making overlords into overseers.
I read the following suggestion on reddit: allow nydus worms to benefit from ground carapace, this way workers won't kill them anymore in late-game. It's a very non-intrusive change, but with potentially good long-term effects.
yeah that one is totally reasonable. i also liked one i saw on bnet, suggesting that they can only be built on creep (but with overlord creep spread it's not unreasonable), and then it's reasonable to do things like buff their HP, reduce build time, allow Cancel, etc
On March 19 2013 01:38 LgNKami wrote: I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction.
God bless you for saying what I didn't dare to. I love playing aggressively, and every time I succeeded with it on ladder I was accused of cheese, even when I scouted poor defense and then simply punished it.
It's easy for Terran players to say that at the moment. But imagine if Blizzard decided to give Colossi an ability to move twice as quickly because that would be "exciting" to watch. Protoss would open fast collasi and run up and cliffs at breakneck special speeds. Terrans would complain, and some trollish Toss players would tell them to adapt by scouting and opening with vikings.
What kind of messed up comparison is that? Speedmedivacs are obviously fine, mc crushed drop play, so it's not imbalance, it's as he said, most of us are s till playing wol and try to deal with drops as you would in wol, which is obviously not working out, they are just a new tool to punish bad players even more, which is obviously working out greatly given all the bad players complaining. Just because you keep dieing to it in your shitty masters division doesn't mean it's imba, chances are it means you suck.
PartinG, Rain, and Creator were pwnd by the new medevacs. MC did better with all ins. All ins and timing attacks are a way of avoiding the problem, not a long term solution.
Creator lost his game 1 not because of medivac fyi
Sounds good I like The wait and see. I have ideas for changes but they don't matter cause I'm not blizzard lol. I do hope they also look at lower league data a bit in addition to pros to make changes. Just to see the full spectrum you know.
On March 19 2013 01:38 LgNKami wrote: I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction.
God bless you for saying what I didn't dare to. I love playing aggressively, and every time I succeeded with it on ladder I was accused of cheese, even when I scouted poor defense and then simply punished it.
It's easy for Terran players to say that at the moment. But imagine if Blizzard decided to give Colossi an ability to move twice as quickly because that would be "exciting" to watch. Protoss would open fast collasi and run up and cliffs at breakneck special speeds. Terrans would complain, and some trollish Toss players would tell them to adapt by scouting and opening with vikings.
What kind of messed up comparison is that? Speedmedivacs are obviously fine, mc crushed drop play, so it's not imbalance, it's as he said, most of us are s till playing wol and try to deal with drops as you would in wol, which is obviously not working out, they are just a new tool to punish bad players even more, which is obviously working out greatly given all the bad players complaining. Just because you keep dieing to it in your shitty masters division doesn't mean it's imba, chances are it means you suck.
PartinG, Rain, and Creator were pwnd by the new medevacs. MC did better with all ins. All ins and timing attacks are a way of avoiding the problem, not a long term solution.
I'm not talking about his oracle/stalker allins. I'm talking about getting 5-6 phoenix to just shut down drop play, every game he went makro + phoenix he didn't loose anything to drops. Parting, Rain (I won't even name creator since I hate that kid so much) are all insanely good players, but none of them tried anything besides blinkers + feedback vs drops, which is obviously not a solution to the after burners. Also parting loosing to flash had very little to do with speed medivacs, and him writing imba imba at the end just shows how immature his approach to finding a solution is anyways. Plus you could also argue that due to proleague rain wasn't even able to play much hots before mlg, so no wonder he looses to something new.
how disappointingly boring. I feel like we're back in 2010 with 1 zerg in the top 8 and mostly terrans will dominate tournament scenes for the next few months.
On March 19 2013 03:34 neoghaleon55 wrote: how disappointingly boring. I feel like we're back in 2010 with 1 zerg in the top 8 and mostly terrans will dominate tournament scenes for the next few months.
On March 19 2013 03:34 neoghaleon55 wrote: how disappointingly boring. I feel like we're back in 2010 with 1 zerg in the top 8 and mostly terrans will dominate tournament scenes for the next few months.
haha life is what mvp was for terran in 2012
life is the fruitdealer of 2013...with the OP ultras and all,too! XD
On March 19 2013 03:02 LOveRH wrote: If they decrease medivac's health by 10-15 it would make such a big deal. I wish they would think about doing this. So many MLG games where the terran was forcing their opponent in their base with just medivacs. They always got away with like 4-8 hp. If a change like this was made, one or two of them died during the game(s), it might be the changed needed to help players not be overwhelmed by drops and make the medivacs a tiny bit less cost effective without completely breaking them.
I don't think so, it only rarely happens that medivacs get close to dying right now.
I disagree. From the games i have witness there was many times the zerg/protoss got very lucky and almost sniped a medivac at a cruel point within the game. I just feel like medivacs as a whole right now, are way too cost effective. Decreasing their hp will give players an opportunity to punish terran player's drop-play mistakes. Right now what i'm seeing is protoss/zerg get into beautiful positions to punish medivac play but the terran always gets away in the red, every time. By decreasing the hp will shorten terran's window for reacting to pulling out and time for them to do damage within a base before the army returns to defend.
On March 19 2013 01:38 LgNKami wrote: I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction.
God bless you for saying what I didn't dare to. I love playing aggressively, and every time I succeeded with it on ladder I was accused of cheese, even when I scouted poor defense and then simply punished it.
It's easy for Terran players to say that at the moment. But imagine if Blizzard decided to give Colossi an ability to move twice as quickly because that would be "exciting" to watch. Protoss would open fast collasi and run up and cliffs at breakneck special speeds. Terrans would complain, and some trollish Toss players would tell them to adapt by scouting and opening with vikings.
What kind of messed up comparison is that? Speedmedivacs are obviously fine, mc crushed drop play, so it's not imbalance, it's as he said, most of us are s till playing wol and try to deal with drops as you would in wol, which is obviously not working out, they are just a new tool to punish bad players even more, which is obviously working out greatly given all the bad players complaining. Just because you keep dieing to it in your shitty masters division doesn't mean it's imba, chances are it means you suck.
PartinG, Rain, and Creator were pwnd by the new medevacs. MC did better with all ins. All ins and timing attacks are a way of avoiding the problem, not a long term solution.
I'm not talking about his oracle/stalker allins. I'm talking about getting 5-6 phoenix to just shut down drop play, every game he went makro + phoenix he didn't loose anything to drops. Parting, Rain (I won't even name creator since I hate that kid so much) are all insanely good players, but none of them tried anything besides blinkers + feedback vs drops, which is obviously not a solution to the after burners. Also parting loosing to flash had very little to do with speed medivacs, and him writing imba imba at the end just shows how immature his approach to finding a solution is anyways. Plus you could also argue that due to proleague rain wasn't even able to play much hots before mlg, so no wonder he looses to something new.
I wonder what Creator did to you, that you hate him that much. ontopic: getting 5-6 phoenix sounds good first, but the dps is way too low to kill medivacs before they got to drop out their load. And after investing that heavily into them, you may not have enough to deal with the marines. I haven't seen it being tested, but that are concerns I would have with this strategy. If you have good experiences with that strategy, then others should give it a try too.
find this sc2 community so bad honestly , some noob see the top korean terran owning some poor foreigner after the game out since less that one week , and cry MEDIVAC OP ..... what a joke .
the game out since less that ONE WEEK!! can you get that in your brain ?? why the game would need any nerf anywhere after this much litle time ??
you realy think you are that amazing for know thing like ''medivac need a litle nerf or they are litle to much powerfull ''
well excuse me , but most people here are a bunch of newbie who dont even know what strong or good or what balanced. you guy just see the BEST of the best korean owning some foreigner at a tournament and cry ''imba'' imba'' while the korean pro gamer protoss were doing damn fine vs these drop , and anyway nothing would have change if they did die like noob vs them , they are ''NEW'' you need practice vs them , learn how to counter them and so on .
stop with your nerf nonsence and learn how to play ( yes strangely this game a rts game , where you need understand build , counter and so on , when something new come out , you need to LEARN something again , crazy right ??? ).
I agree 100% with DK. The game right now is way, way more fun to watch than WoL was, and stuff is being figured out every day. Hands off for the time being is the way to go.
I just hope they go with buffs instead of nerfs for balance this time around, BW-like a lot of things are crazy powerful but not auto-win balance is fun to play and watch.
Can't really argue with Medivacs not being fun to watch, even though they're extremely imbalanced, maybe the answer is to give Oracles an actual third ability that is multitask heavy and fun to watch aswell, instead of nerfing Medivacs. But I think this pigeon-holes the number of strategies available, just because Medivacs and Oracles would be way surperior to each other unit.
On March 19 2013 01:38 LgNKami wrote: I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction.
God bless you for saying what I didn't dare to. I love playing aggressively, and every time I succeeded with it on ladder I was accused of cheese, even when I scouted poor defense and then simply punished it.
It's easy for Terran players to say that at the moment. But imagine if Blizzard decided to give Colossi an ability to move twice as quickly because that would be "exciting" to watch. Protoss would open fast collasi and run up and cliffs at breakneck special speeds. Terrans would complain, and some trollish Toss players would tell them to adapt by scouting and opening with vikings.
What kind of messed up comparison is that? Speedmedivacs are obviously fine, mc crushed drop play, so it's not imbalance, it's as he said, most of us are s till playing wol and try to deal with drops as you would in wol, which is obviously not working out, they are just a new tool to punish bad players even more, which is obviously working out greatly given all the bad players complaining. Just because you keep dieing to it in your shitty masters division doesn't mean it's imba, chances are it means you suck.
PartinG, Rain, and Creator were pwnd by the new medevacs. MC did better with all ins. All ins and timing attacks are a way of avoiding the problem, not a long term solution.
I'm not talking about his oracle/stalker allins. I'm talking about getting 5-6 phoenix to just shut down drop play, every game he went makro + phoenix he didn't loose anything to drops. Parting, Rain (I won't even name creator since I hate that kid so much) are all insanely good players, but none of them tried anything besides blinkers + feedback vs drops, which is obviously not a solution to the after burners. Also parting loosing to flash had very little to do with speed medivacs, and him writing imba imba at the end just shows how immature his approach to finding a solution is anyways. Plus you could also argue that due to proleague rain wasn't even able to play much hots before mlg, so no wonder he looses to something new.
MC did that against Bogus in game 3, and didn't lose anything to drops, but just died to a straight up push, because Stargate+Phoenix delay tech and expansion timings. That's why you didn't see a lot of Stargate openings in PvT in WoL, While Oracles may change this somewhat, thus far they seem better at all-ins than actual harassment. I guess that's part of the problem with Protoss, every effective harassment tool is even better in a Warpgate all-in.
On March 19 2013 01:39 peidongyang wrote: How are Mexicans in tvp fun when it basically forces toss to 1 base allin or never to move out and just die? Edit medivacs stupid autocorrect
oh god this is hilarious
and yeah i agree, no one is even playing hots style, at best it's a WoL + some mix of units maybe, only MC's PvT looks new
in response to the op's comments. its imposible from a balance perspective to have every unit interesting to watch. u need boring units because with every unit being interesting what is going to be the army to allow for interesting units to work. also from a spectators perspective if every unit is interesting the become more dull over all. make the interesting units shine more by making them standout more atleast thats how i feel
Wait and see is definitely the right response no one has had nearly enough time yet to study and figure anything out. You do not knee jerk react to the results from this very early in hots tournament result even pro players are just not used to all the new stuff.
On March 19 2013 03:39 quebecman77 wrote: find this sc2 community so bad honestly , some noob see the top korean terran owning some poor foreigner after the game out since less that one week , and cry MEDIVAC OP ..... what a joke .
the game out since less that ONE WEEK!! can you get that in your brain ?? why the game would need any nerf anywhere after this much litle time ??
you realy think you are that amazing for know thing like ''medivac need a litle nerf or they are litle to much powerfull ''
well excuse me , but most people here are a bunch of newbie who dont even know what strong or good or what balanced. you guy just see the BEST of the best korean owning some foreigner at a tournament and cry ''imba'' imba'' while the korean pro gamer protoss were doing damn fine vs these drop , and anyway nothing would have change if they did die like noob vs them , they are ''NEW'' you need practice vs them , learn how to counter them and so on .
stop with your nerf nonsence and learn how to play ( yes strangely this game a rts game , where you need understand build , counter and so on , when something new come out , you need to LEARN something again , crazy right ??? ).
again , MEDIVAC are fine , mine are fine .
learn the game , stop whine , thx very much
Fix your grammar please, and also the medivacs have been out since beta.
If DK doesn't see why medivacs are OP he should go and pull his eyes out because they are good for nothing. As for the rest it's too early to decide on anything.
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
I love the nydus, but it is a free doom drop if it is not spotted. If anything, they should limit the number of units that can be loaded into the nydus at a time and force the player to load and unload. This would require two screen multi tasking and put more of a delay on the nydus dumping out a full army. With that limitation, they could make it more awesome, harder to kill without the risk of it being game ending if it gets up.
The problem I have with this argument is that medivacs are useful for multiple reasons, including harass, healing, and doom dropping. Nydus worms are only useful as a doom drop, and one that will be lost if your opponent defends the attack at all. I think the option to use a nydus worm for mining purposes should be made easier for the Zerg, personally. It's an expensive building that provides no production, and would give us another reason to use it.
It simply needs either another or less gimmicky use to be worthwhile. I think that making it harder to spot or easier to put down would be overpowered and would not help anyone but the zerg.
I do think they could make some more minor tweaks to units that are not useful. I think swarm hosts are a good idea and zerg players clearly want more options I mean leenock tried to use them and so did life but we saw why they are not that good. They need to send out weaker/faster units more often so they can be moved around more often and show us more interesting micro. Right now they just are not strong enough for what they do even in large numbers. In the leenock game the other guy just moved around them and leenock has all his money tied up in those silly things. Unlike lurkers a few swarm hosts pose nearly no threat so you cant spread them out for space control like they clearly intended.
Just wanted to let you know that our design team is watching every major match carefully and will continue doing so.
Some things we're noticing are:
- The super aggressive play is turning out to be really fun to watch.
- Nobody is close to figuring the game out yet.
- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority.
- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them.
Some things we're thinking of going forward:
- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
- We'll continue watching all the pro and community concerns, but keep in mind we'd really like the game to settle before we step in and make a move.
I don't know what to say, Blizzard seems so ignorant. Of course aggressive play is fun to watch. The game is at it's best when a macro player has an equal chance against someone with a very well planned and executed all-in timing. Then it all comes down to scouting, micro, mindgames, ect... and of course don't forget maps.
At the start of WOL timing players dominated, and the game was boring because it was Marine-SCV all-in after Marine-SCV all-in. At the end of WOL it was boring because it was a turtlefest dominated by macro players, the first 10 minutes were literally a waste of time, and every game played out with the same basic compositions. Variety is what makes the game fun.
Blizzard needs to hit that balance. And while I hate to be the pessimist here, the awesome HOTS games we are watching are because the game hasn't been figured out. People wanted to play macro like in Wings, but timings were really strong, so we got variety, and it was fun! However, Photon Overcharge and Widow Mines threaten to make the game even more of a turtlefest than WOL is when the game is figured out. Note how Terran can't do any old Rax timings with Photon Overcharge. Look at how passive Protoss has to be in the mid game versus Terran due to Widow Mines and Speedvacs.
I'm calling it right now, once Protoss players learn to defend the mid-game pressure (or it gets nerfed if it can't be defended) then the game will be an epic turtlefest till lategame in PvT, and we'll be in an even worse position in PvT then we were at end of the WOL.
Hopefully Blizzard will head that off at the pass.
On March 19 2013 01:38 LgNKami wrote: I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction.
God bless you for saying what I didn't dare to. I love playing aggressively, and every time I succeeded with it on ladder I was accused of cheese, even when I scouted poor defense and then simply punished it.
It's easy for Terran players to say that at the moment. But imagine if Blizzard decided to give Colossi an ability to move twice as quickly because that would be "exciting" to watch. Protoss would open fast collasi and run up and cliffs at breakneck special speeds. Terrans would complain, and some trollish Toss players would tell them to adapt by scouting and opening with vikings.
What kind of messed up comparison is that? Speedmedivacs are obviously fine, mc crushed drop play, so it's not imbalance, it's as he said, most of us are s till playing wol and try to deal with drops as you would in wol, which is obviously not working out, they are just a new tool to punish bad players even more, which is obviously working out greatly given all the bad players complaining. Just because you keep dieing to it in your shitty masters division doesn't mean it's imba, chances are it means you suck.
PartinG, Rain, and Creator were pwnd by the new medevacs. MC did better with all ins. All ins and timing attacks are a way of avoiding the problem, not a long term solution.
I'm not talking about his oracle/stalker allins. I'm talking about getting 5-6 phoenix to just shut down drop play, every game he went makro + phoenix he didn't loose anything to drops. Parting, Rain (I won't even name creator since I hate that kid so much) are all insanely good players, but none of them tried anything besides blinkers + feedback vs drops, which is obviously not a solution to the after burners. Also parting loosing to flash had very little to do with speed medivacs, and him writing imba imba at the end just shows how immature his approach to finding a solution is anyways. Plus you could also argue that due to proleague rain wasn't even able to play much hots before mlg, so no wonder he looses to something new.
I wonder what Creator did to you, that you hate him that much. ontopic: getting 5-6 phoenix sounds good first, but the dps is way too low to kill medivacs before they got to drop out their load. And after investing that heavily into them, you may not have enough to deal with the marines. I haven't seen it being tested, but that are concerns I would have with this strategy. If you have good experiences with that strategy, then others should give it a try too.
the biggest problem is upgrades, after investing so much into phoenix and the needed splash, there is not enough gas to upgrade, that is probably why MC went for the 2 base all ins after the phoenix, he knows that behind in upgrades he can't trade equally with terran, and it would just get out of control as the game goes on...
I guess I agree. MLG games were quite good. They could balance the game today, but we can wait and see better how much nerfs will be needed. But I wish they would buff hydra and nydus right away, because those changes should be harsh and it will take some time to polish. On other side nerf to widow mine/voidray/medivac will be probably one and final.
Really glad they're not rushing any changes. I just hope they don't fall into the trap of driving players and spectators away with Terran dominance again like in WoL before the game really evolved into something more entertaining. HotS is a much more entertaining game already so I hope the player base lasts longer this time.
Wow, for what might be the first time ever, I 100% agree with everything in this statement.
I'm glad Blizz is listening to the calm, intelligent side of the community instead of the whiners for once. Or maybe they came to this conclusion wholly themselves. Either way, big win for SC as a whole.
I especially agree with Blizz's comment that though some players are struggling with new strats, there are others who have taken the changes in stride and are responding successfully. Clearly this is just a matter of time with the better players adapting faster which is exactly what one would expect.
This adapt-not-complain approach is so reminiscent of BW days, and I hope to see more :D Granted there was always whine, but nothing along the lines of what we see now. Not to mention TvT had a distinct BW-esque feel to it as well. We're on the right path!
After having been able to watch some of the MLG this past weekened I totally agree with what DK is saying. The game is so volatile right now, new strats coming left and right and the game is still just a giant puzzle waiting to be solved.
Are medivacs OP? I`d be inclined to say yes but I have to say; during MLG, whenever terran had medivacs on the field I was tense because these medivacs drops are legitimately scary now and as the players danced back and forth there were "ohhh`s" and "ahhhs" while drops were attempted and deflected until all the adrenaline was released as multi-pronged drops kicked it, very entertaining to watch.
The game has gone agressive, constant back and forth action as players trade, exchange advantages and run eachother into the ground. i found watching Starcraft to be enternaing again as this past weekened has kept me on the edge of my seat for the games that I managed to watch. I hope Blizzard keeps their word and only intervenes when there is a real problem that needs immediate attention.
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
I love the nydus, but it is a free doom drop if it is not spotted. If anything, they should limit the number of units that can be loaded into the nydus at a time and force the player to load and unload. This would require two screen multi tasking and put more of a delay on the nydus dumping out a full army. With that limitation, they could make it more awesome, harder to kill without the risk of it being game ending if it gets up.
The problem I have with this argument is that medivacs are useful for multiple reasons, including harass, healing, and doom dropping. Nydus worms are only useful as a doom drop, and one that will be lost if your opponent defends the attack at all. I think the option to use a nydus worm for mining purposes should be made easier for the Zerg, personally. It's an expensive building that provides no production, and would give us another reason to use it.
It simply needs either another or less gimmicky use to be worthwhile. I think that making it harder to spot or easier to put down would be overpowered and would not help anyone but the zerg.
nydus is ridiculously OP in PvZ if not spotted in time. I don't agree with buffing it more at all. On some big map with long distance between main and third base, Zerg can abuse it easy enough already. Zergs don't use nydus much cause beside hydras, most of their ground units are fast enough.
I'm a terran player, but I'm just thinking aboout why overseers can't get drop by defult and skip the drop upgrade all together. I think this would allow zerg to get some mid game aggression without getting too op, since to overseers still cost gas.
Good to read that kind of statement. It would be a huge mistake to continue to nerf everything into the ground, as they did in WoL. But it seems like they learned from that and are willing to wait it out. And if something turns out to be too strong on a constant level, I hope they react by providing options against that instead of nerfing it.
I 100% agree with waiting it out. But let's not kid ourselves and say that medivac boosts "look fine" now lol MC only crushed them because he constantly blind countered them with SG openings every game, and innovation clearly exposed that in their 3/4 series. The mobility of terran is too great right now when you understand the cost/effectiveness of their stimmed bio army, especially in the small skirmishes drop play helps create. They are not fine as of now, but let's wait and find out in the future.
I'd much rather get buffs elsewhere than to nerf them though, that's for damn sure. They are exciting to watch.
On March 19 2013 04:13 Mortal wrote: I am begging them to NOT NERF ANYTHING but to make other races have BETTER shit. That way it's not a fucking homogeneous boring mess like WoL was.
Same.
I agree with other people here that Nydus Worm should get some small buff, perhaps a shorter time to build or a lower cost.
On March 19 2013 04:13 Mortal wrote: I am begging them to NOT NERF ANYTHING but to make other races have BETTER shit. That way it's not a fucking homogeneous boring mess like WoL was.
Same.
I agree with other people here that Nydus Worm should get some small buff, perhaps a shorter time to build or a lower cost.
WoL became boring because zergs couldn't really be aggressive early on besides from all in busts, thus it all degraded into a turtle fest and broodlords. Had nothing to do with nerfs or buffs.
On March 19 2013 04:13 Mortal wrote: I am begging them to NOT NERF ANYTHING but to make other races have BETTER shit. That way it's not a fucking homogeneous boring mess like WoL was.
Same.
I agree with other people here that Nydus Worm should get some small buff, perhaps a shorter time to build or a lower cost.
WoL became boring because zergs couldn't really be aggressive early on besides from all in busts, thus it all degraded into a turtle fest and broodlords. Had nothing to do with nerfs or buffs.
And now it's even harder to be aggressive cause of mines/siege mode/mothership core. Zerg in return got nothing until 10 minutes into the game.
On March 19 2013 04:13 Mortal wrote: I am begging them to NOT NERF ANYTHING but to make other races have BETTER shit. That way it's not a fucking homogeneous boring mess like WoL was.
Same.
I agree with other people here that Nydus Worm should get some small buff, perhaps a shorter time to build or a lower cost.
WoL became boring because zergs couldn't really be aggressive early on besides from all in busts, thus it all degraded into a turtle fest and broodlords. Had nothing to do with nerfs or buffs.
It had to do with the queen buff. Everyone knows this. Pre-queen patch TvZ was the best and most high paced match-up.
On March 19 2013 04:13 Mortal wrote: I am begging them to NOT NERF ANYTHING but to make other races have BETTER shit. That way it's not a fucking homogeneous boring mess like WoL was.
Same.
I agree with other people here that Nydus Worm should get some small buff, perhaps a shorter time to build or a lower cost.
WoL became boring because zergs couldn't really be aggressive early on besides from all in busts, thus it all degraded into a turtle fest and broodlords. Had nothing to do with nerfs or buffs.
And now it's even harder to be aggressive cause of mines/siege mode/mothership core. Zerg in return got nothing until 10 minutes into the game.
On the other hand, we got SH's and buffed mutas post 10min. Life also showed us how strong a 3base baneling attack is versus mine-dependant terrans. Speed hydras also allows some neat timings vs toss.
I think an interesting change could be to make nydus worms invulnerable while building/still underground. Hear me out before you call it completely insane, because if I had suggested a year ago that medivacs should get a really low cooldown ability that made them book around the map at light speed it would have sounded crazy as well.
If the nydus worm was invulnerable while building, it would basically simulate the same effect you have now of when you spot a drop incoming except that zerg doesn't have the ability to just abort when he realizes he's been spotted and the defending player would know exactly when and where the 'drop' was going to occur.
So let's paint a picture. We're watching MLG, and Life decides to do some nydus worm magic to his Terran opponent. He spends the resources to start the nydus worm building in his opponents base, but because his opponent has put supply depots near the cliffs he sees it building. Now, remember boys and girls that one of the big downsides to nydus worms is how slowly stuff piles out of it. This isn't like dropships where you have your entire army on the ground in just a couple of seconds due to each dropship unloading simultaneously. This means the defender doesn't need to send his entire army to that point, he just needs enough that it would be foolish for the zerg to try to pile out of the nydus single file into a perfectly concaved enemy force. Plus, the life expectancy of the nydus worm itself with units nearby is quite low.
So in this example, Life's terran opponent sends a middling force of 12 marines, 4 marauders, and 2 medivacs to the incoming worm location. Problem solved. Short of it being late game and ultralisks piling out of that thing, it is unlikely anything coming out of the worm single file will pose any threat here. Also, he could stim and end the nydus worms life in roughly 1.2 seconds, meaning a couple of zerg units manage to get out at most. In essence, the worm is just a zergy form of dropping that is different enough to make it interesting. If you plop it down somewhere he hasn't placed structure within his main, it is his own fault just as much as if the zerg didn't have overlords out to spot a medivac drop incoming. If the zerg lures the terrans main army away from his base and then drops it somewhere the Terran can't possibly get to in time with combat units, then it is once again the same thing we see happening now, except that zerg units are no where near as cost effective and there would have to be more of them piled into the base.
This change would accomplish many things in a single stroke. First, we might actually see some nydus play happening. Secondly, Nydus worms could be used as a feint to draw some forces away from the main deathball in much the same way dropships do now because the opponent will no longer be able to shut the worm down with a just few workers. Finally, while it does give the zerg the ability to see if the drop is safe before ever putting units through it, it also a resource cost that the zerg can never get back that serves no other purpose (unlike medivacs.)
I know it sounds a little crazy, and perhaps it is; but once again, everyone would have said the same thing about medivacs with afterburners a year ago.
Edit/PS: I know some people will say, "But Antpile, the Zerg can pile their entire maxed supply army out of that thing!" While this is true, to that I reassert my earlier mention of just how long it would take to pile an entire zerg army out of a nydus worm. Also, in order for this to happen it would also mean all the normal things a doom drop entails such as leaving the doom dropper vulnerable to counterattack and/or a base race. A base race rarely ends in Zerg's favor.
On March 19 2013 05:29 Antpile wrote: I think an interesting change could be to make nydus worms invulnerable while building/still underground. Hear me out before you call it completely insane, because if I had suggested a year ago that medivacs should get a really low cooldown ability that made them book around the map at light speed it would have sounded crazy as well.
If the nydus worm was invulnerable while building, it would basically simulate the same effect you have now of when you spot a drop incoming except that zerg doesn't have the ability to just abort when he realizes he's been spotted and the defending player would know exactly when and where the 'drop' was going to occur.
So let's paint a picture. We're watching MLG, and Life decides to do some nydus worm magic to his Terran opponent. He spends the resources to start the nydus worm building in his opponents base, but because his opponent has put supply depots near the cliffs he sees it building. Now, remember boys and girls that one of the big downsides to nydus worms is how slowly stuff piles out of it. This isn't like dropships where you have your entire army on the ground in just a couple of seconds due to each dropship unloading simultaneously. This means the defender doesn't need to send his entire army to that point, he just needs enough that it would be foolish for the zerg to try to pile out of the nydus single file into a perfectly concaved enemy force. Plus, the life expectancy of the nydus worm itself with units nearby is quite low.
So in this example, Life's terran opponent sends a middling force of 12 marines, 4 marauders, and 2 medivacs to the incoming worm location. Problem solved. Short of it being late game and ultralisks piling out of that thing, it is unlikely anything coming out of the worm single file will pose any threat here. Also, he could stim and end the nydus worms life in roughly 1.2 seconds, meaning a couple of zerg units manage to get out at most. In essence, the worm is just a zergy form of dropping that is different enough to make it interesting. If you plop it down somewhere he hasn't placed structure within his main, it is his own fault just as much as if the zerg didn't have overlords out to spot a medivac drop incoming. If the zerg lures the terrans main army away from his base and then drops it somewhere the Terran can't possibly get to in time with combat units, then it is once again the same thing we see happening now, except that zerg units are no where near as cost effective and there would have to be more of them piled into the base.
This change would accomplish many things in a single stroke. First, we might actually see some nydus play happening. Secondly, Nydus worms could be used as a feint to draw some forces away from the main deathball in much the same way dropships do now because the opponent will no longer be able to shut the worm down with a just few workers. Finally, while it does give the zerg the ability to see if the drop is safe before ever putting units through it, it also a resource cost that the zerg can never get back that serves no other purpose (unlike medivacs.)
I know it sounds a little crazy, and perhaps it is; but once again, everyone would have said the same thing about medivacs with afterburners a year ago.
Not sure if stupid or just trolling... :D You seriously cant be serious?! :D
On March 19 2013 04:13 Mortal wrote: I am begging them to NOT NERF ANYTHING but to make other races have BETTER shit. That way it's not a fucking homogeneous boring mess like WoL was.
Same.
I agree with other people here that Nydus Worm should get some small buff, perhaps a shorter time to build or a lower cost.
WoL became boring because zergs couldn't really be aggressive early on besides from all in busts, thus it all degraded into a turtle fest and broodlords. Had nothing to do with nerfs or buffs.
And now it's even harder to be aggressive cause of mines/siege mode/mothership core. Zerg in return got nothing until 10 minutes into the game.
On the other hand, we got SH's and buffed mutas post 10min. Life also showed us how strong a 3base baneling attack is versus mine-dependant terrans. Speed hydras also allows some neat timings vs toss.
SHs are useless vs bio which is the huge gaping hole in zerg matchups currently. The muta buff is only barely an answer to widow mines and speedvacs and it provides no options that didn't exist already. Mutas were better off overall in WoL than HotS vs terran. Zerg was the most incomplete race in WoL and they still are in HotS.
Medivac speed boost needs to be an upgrade and requires like 25 energy to use. Hellbats need to not be bio, and widow mine splash needs to be reduced a bit. That and make zerg actually able to combat air toss/terran ie do something with corruptors.
I hope that they're not afraid to massively change boring units like void rays, corrupters. I had hoped that they'd remove and replace them completely, due to them not having a BroodWar background, but sadly that didn't happen, which will turn out to be a mistake.
On March 19 2013 04:02 striderxxx wrote: I have no idea why nydus play isn't used more? This would seem to be an OP thing in the hands of a pro who can multitask like a boss.
Agreed. I would love to see a combo of Nydus and Swarm Hosts.
On March 19 2013 04:13 Mortal wrote: I am begging them to NOT NERF ANYTHING but to make other races have BETTER shit. That way it's not a fucking homogeneous boring mess like WoL was.
Same.
I agree with other people here that Nydus Worm should get some small buff, perhaps a shorter time to build or a lower cost.
WoL became boring because zergs couldn't really be aggressive early on besides from all in busts, thus it all degraded into a turtle fest and broodlords. Had nothing to do with nerfs or buffs.
More like it became that because Zerg cried over pre 15 min aggression and got queendralisk to stop any early damage, coupled with the best and easiest to use lategame. So yeah it was due to nerfs to terran early game and massive buffs to zerg early game. Coupled with Maps getting huge, and every map maker thought that zerg should have a ledge so they can watch any army movement without activly scouting.
On March 19 2013 05:50 TigerKarl wrote: I hope that they're not afraid to massively change boring units like void rays, corrupters. I had hoped that they'd remove and replace them completely, due to them not having a BroodWar background, but sadly that didn't happen, which will turn out to be a mistake.
Blizzard is clueless in that regard. They had all the time in the world to change corruptor but they didn't even touched it. I am not even talking about collossus - most boring unit in the game. Just replace it with reaver, adjust damage accordingly and game becomes so much more better.
On March 19 2013 05:29 Antpile wrote: I think an interesting change could be to make nydus worms invulnerable while building/still underground. Hear me out before you call it completely insane, because if I had suggested a year ago that medivacs should get a really low cooldown ability that made them book around the map at light speed it would have sounded crazy as well.
If the nydus worm was invulnerable while building, it would basically simulate the same effect you have now of when you spot a drop incoming except that zerg doesn't have the ability to just abort when he realizes he's been spotted and the defending player would know exactly when and where the 'drop' was going to occur.
So let's paint a picture. We're watching MLG, and Life decides to do some nydus worm magic to his Terran opponent. He spends the resources to start the nydus worm building in his opponents base, but because his opponent has put supply depots near the cliffs he sees it building. Now, remember boys and girls that one of the big downsides to nydus worms is how slowly stuff piles out of it. This isn't like dropships where you have your entire army on the ground in just a couple of seconds due to each dropship unloading simultaneously. This means the defender doesn't need to send his entire army to that point, he just needs enough that it would be foolish for the zerg to try to pile out of the nydus single file into a perfectly concaved enemy force. Plus, the life expectancy of the nydus worm itself with units nearby is quite low.
So in this example, Life's terran opponent sends a middling force of 12 marines, 4 marauders, and 2 medivacs to the incoming worm location. Problem solved. Short of it being late game and ultralisks piling out of that thing, it is unlikely anything coming out of the worm single file will pose any threat here. Also, he could stim and end the nydus worms life in roughly 1.2 seconds, meaning a couple of zerg units manage to get out at most. In essence, the worm is just a zergy form of dropping that is different enough to make it interesting. If you plop it down somewhere he hasn't placed structure within his main, it is his own fault just as much as if the zerg didn't have overlords out to spot a medivac drop incoming. If the zerg lures the terrans main army away from his base and then drops it somewhere the Terran can't possibly get to in time with combat units, then it is once again the same thing we see happening now, except that zerg units are no where near as cost effective and there would have to be more of them piled into the base.
This change would accomplish many things in a single stroke. First, we might actually see some nydus play happening. Secondly, Nydus worms could be used as a feint to draw some forces away from the main deathball in much the same way dropships do now because the opponent will no longer be able to shut the worm down with a just few workers. Finally, while it does give the zerg the ability to see if the drop is safe before ever putting units through it, it also a resource cost that the zerg can never get back that serves no other purpose (unlike medivacs.)
I know it sounds a little crazy, and perhaps it is; but once again, everyone would have said the same thing about medivacs with afterburners a year ago.
Not sure if stupid or just trolling... :D You seriously cant be serious?! :D
He's making a point of how insane he sees medivacs as being. I might not agree with him, but I see what he did there.
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
Faster mutalisks with regeneration enabling muta ling baneling play to be more viable. (it already was anyways, just better now). Buffed ultralisks that can two shot marines and are an aggressive unit. 12 range infestor to support ultras. A viper that shuts down defensive units allowing you to be aggressive where previously not possible with speed hydras. Tier 1 burrow.
You did get some new aggressive things, if you choose not to use them that's on you and other Zergs. Life and the top tier Zergs already have started to use them.
As for the metagame, look forward in the next two weeks for oracle dice roll PvT to "evolve" if you can call it that into a match-up where every game is, "did he go oracle? did he build more than 1? or is he doing a different all-in? do i build turrets or no?"
TvZ will be more refined bio+mine play and mech + speed burrow will start cropping up very soon.
As for PvZ, Zergs probably will start using mass drop a lot more considering hydras are better in general.
And a sigh of relief to every Terran play on earth who thought that blizzard would make the mistake of nerfing Terran blindly again. Speed medivacs are already being dealt with quite well by SPEED MUTALISKS and stargate openings from Protoss.
And yes, i'm advocating everyone call them "speed mutalisks" because for some reason everyone is acting as if medivacs were the only unit that received a speed buff which is untrue.
Ahhh, we can always rely on you, Avilo, can't we?
This is the right move from Blizzard. It's too soon to be making sweeping changes.
Still doesn't change (at least for me) the fact that most of Zerg feels boring...Terran players have some crazy new abilities that make them even more entertaining, while Protoss is more or less the same...but Zerg? All the cool abilities which might provide aggressive potential just...don't work. Aggression shouldn't be expressed in a unit...but in a PLAYSTYLE. New zerg units are used in the mid/late game and are just the definition of boring. While the viper is a cool unit, it supplements boring units (roach/hydra) and eats so much into supply.
Thing is, speedivacs just look FUN. Mines look FUN. The compositions and playstyles of Zerg which look the most entertaining by far either aren't viable or aren't worth the investment.
protoss and terran have new early mid game units to get aggressive with, which is really nice, why no love for zerg? Blizzard keeps giving us more and more late game units that sooner or later people will bitch about cuz zergs finally figured out or got buffed their already existing units to a point that we can survive to late game.
On March 19 2013 05:50 TigerKarl wrote: I hope that they're not afraid to massively change boring units like void rays, corrupters. I had hoped that they'd remove and replace them completely, due to them not having a BroodWar background, but sadly that didn't happen, which will turn out to be a mistake.
Blizzard is clueless in that regard. They had all the time in the world to change corruptor but they didn't even touched it. I am not even talking about collossus - most boring unit in the game. Just replace it with reaver, adjust damage accordingly and game becomes so much more better.
Man, I just traveled back in time for 2012 when everyone was screaming, “Just add BW units, game solved” and “Colossi are boring, add reavers!”, because that would fix sometime, somehow...
I personally think that there aren't really major changes required, but the Widow-Mine certainly needs a closer look..
Like - I personally think that it's no good for the unit to be nearly OP vs Zerg and not as good vs Protoss.. A bit less devastating vs Zerg and a bit better vs Protoss would be a fine change IMO..
Like maybe reduce the splash radius for some 30% but add a 1.5 sec stun to the hits, that way the mine will be more a sinergy unit rather than good as much on it's own..
Another good example would be the Hellbat - IMO it should have +1 (hell, maybe even +2) armor than currently it has now, but deffinitely not being healable by Medivacs TBH.. Not that it just doesn't make sense, but it also makes them really OP vs Protoss (unless you wanna see every Protoss going for SkyToss/Storm every single game when Terran mechs that is)
Zerg - make the Swarm-Hosts a bit cheaper.. At least make it 175/100 instead of 200/100.. I also don't quite like the upgrade, Instead of upgrade currenly it feels like a necessity, but also it makes hosts a bit too strong as well as boring when researched..
It should rather be Locusts being +10HP instead or sth like that IMO.. Like - something that would make the Hosts be better at penetrating as long as you keep a good eye on them to retreat when you're "out of load".. And yeah, increase the locust's bonus on creep a bit more, right now units can just run away easy without taking some damage, like locusts chase away units, but not damage them (unless surrounded or fungaled or whatnot)
And perhaps Hydras need a buff now.. Like maybe 6.5 range instead of 6 upgraded
Other than that - the game's much more awesome right now..
I like this post, Blizzard has never been so open and I hope it's just not a one time thing. I agree with their approach to wait out, game is just being figured out, this tournament tough me a few things about zerg gameplay and how to approach certain things. They really have to wait, zerg will always look "weak" as a reactionary race and terrans will post better results with a "surprise builds".
I personally think that there aren't really major changes required, but some of the new units (Widow-Mine for example) certainly needs a closer look..
Like - I personally think that it's no good for the unit to be nearly OP vs Zerg and not as good vs Protoss.. A bit less devastating vs Zerg and a bit better vs Protoss would be a fine change IMO..
Like maybe reduce the splash radius for some 30% but add a 1.5 sec stun to the hits, that way the mine will be more a sinergy unit rather than good as much on it's own..
Another good example would be the Hellbat - IMO it should have +1 (hell, maybe even +2) armor than currently it has now, but deffinitely not being healable by Medivacs TBH.. Not that it just doesn't make sense, but it also makes them really OP vs Protoss (unless you wanna see every Protoss going for SkyToss/Storm every single game when Terran mechs that is)
Zerg - make the Swarm-Hosts a bit cheaper.. At least make it 175/100 instead of 200/100.. I also don't quite like the upgrade, Instead of upgrade currenly it feels like a necessity, but also it makes hosts a bit too strong as well as boring when researched..
It should rather be Locusts being +10HP instead or sth like that IMO.. Like - something that would make the Hosts be better at penetrating as long as you keep a good eye on them to retreat when you're "out of load".. And yeah, increase the locust's bonus on creep a bit more, right now units can just run away easy without taking some damage, like locusts chase away units, but not damage them (unless surrounded or fungaled or whatnot)
And perhaps Hydras need a buff now.. Like maybe 6.5 range instead of 6 upgraded
Other than that - the game's much more awesome right now..
This is the perfect stance on balance and I agree with what he's saying about more exciting games, every game of MLG I've seen so far has been throroughly entertaining.
On March 19 2013 05:50 TigerKarl wrote: I hope that they're not afraid to massively change boring units like void rays, corrupters. I had hoped that they'd remove and replace them completely, due to them not having a BroodWar background, but sadly that didn't happen, which will turn out to be a mistake.
Blizzard is clueless in that regard. They had all the time in the world to change corruptor but they didn't even touched it. I am not even talking about collossus - most boring unit in the game. Just replace it with reaver, adjust damage accordingly and game becomes so much more better.
Man, I just traveled back in time for 2012 when everyone was screaming, “Just add BW units, game solved” and “Colossi are boring, add reavers!”, because that would fix sometime, somehow...
People were saying the same things in 2011, 2010, and probably in 2009 and earlier too.
I'm at least happy that Blizzard had the balls to replace and add new units instead of making a carbon-copy of BW.
lately i feel kinda bad when i abuse medivacs so much... when people just give up because im commuting between third and main and kill everything.. so that they just gg and leave, without ever fighting my army.
or that im just hopping from base to base and take them out while ultra infestor is too slow to catch up...
It feels very very strong and im n1 diamond now... i guess i can finally get master now because of this :D
I dunno... maybe they just havent learnt to deal with it good enough... but i have a lot of fun.
You really can't determine too much about balance right now with such a small sample. Zerg seems weak, but we don't yet know how weak. It's like how FruitDealer and NesTea won the first 2 GSLs and then a year later we had 20 terrans in Code S, Zerg wasn't "fine" despite the fact that the zergs who actually made it to the Ro8 ended up winning the whole tournament, much like Life at MLG.
"We're not going to balance anything right now" is obviously the correct decision since we don't know that much about the balance, but it doesn't mean "HotS is balanced", and it's actually very unlikely that they accidentally made a balanced game at such an early stage of its lifespan.
Also the definition of fun can be very subjective. I don't understand why some people would believe that powerful units = boring units but hey.
Well i don'tthink that would help. There is the "No balance discussion" and people just ignore it.
Good to read this from DK, totally agreed, even if i believe eventually medivacs may use slight changes, i don't think we had seen the adjustments from players to really have a clue what to do with them if at the end is needed for the game to nerf them. I also hope they take maps into account this time before nerfing.
Btw, i am pretty sure DK knows and doesn't mean by this that the game is balanced. Noone on their right mind could claim that after one week of release.
I think Blizzard should consider holding a private inhouse tournament with 16 or 32 players of this caliber while developing LotV so they have a chance to tweak things well in advance of release.
I said this in the other thread. I'll just repost is here:
Great stuff by Blizzard. I was hoping they would leave the game alone for a while, rather than nerf-jerk in response to the community. Our tendency to whine and give our personal opinions credence means that we should usually be ignored.
As to solutions to problems, if there are real problems, I have no idea. My personal wish for the longest time has been a slightly buffed Stalker (i.e. more Dragoon like in its effect). But, more seriously, I am happy to leave it to Browder and Kim.
I agree. The game is very fun to watch at the moment. Not sure if this is because it's new and the players haven't figured anything out yet or not. Also I feel like in WoL they made some rash decisions on balance. I hope they hold back a bit more on balance changes.
But still: The game is actually fun to watch again! So refreshing after the last year of WoL...
Im going to steer clear from balance, even tho I think small changes are in order. However, on the corruptor, I 100% agree : its such a boring unit. I dont want them to buff it or anything, I want them to make it a more interesting unit.
On March 19 2013 06:25 Jisall wrote: Give corrupters the Ability "Corrupt"
Corrupter kills iteself, suiciding into the enemy aircraft dealing Scourgelike damage.
THIS ^^^^^^^^. Gives you a choice to use as a standard corruptor or suicide for high damage. Maybe nerf their standard damage even. Something anything is better than the current corruptor. Make broodlords evolve from muta and there is no problems. Corruptors become all about aa. (as in you don't need to produce them if you don't need aa... ie you can go muta and straight to broodlord without having to build a worthless unit against ground armies you might be facing.)
On March 19 2013 06:39 SpikeStarcraft wrote: lately i feel kinda bad when i abuse medivacs so much... when people just give up because im commuting between third and main and kill everything.. so that they just gg and leave, without ever fighting my army.
or that im just hopping from base to base and take them out while ultra infestor is too slow to catch up...
It feels very very strong and im n1 diamond now... i guess i can finally get master now because of this :D
I dunno... maybe they just havent learnt to deal with it good enough... but i have a lot of fun.
During the early stages of WoL drops used to be much more effective than they were in the end. It is most likely going to be the same with speed Medivacs. If we wait a few months people will learn how to deal with them.
When hearing about what widow mines do from the forums, I initially thought they were a dumb idea and that just BW-style spider mines would be better but after seeing them in action I really think they're a great step in the right direction. The little delay before they go off creates a big wow-factor (similar to a scarab in BW) that generates a lot of excitement. Is the mine going to pick off that entire pack of zerglings, or is it just going to hit one on the edge? I really hope they don't change them!
It was pretty obvious they are not going to nerf obviously broken units right now because those broken units produce far better games. Oh well they should do atleast minor changes soon.
On March 19 2013 01:34 lichter wrote: Sure I'm getting slaughtered on ladder but I'm glad they are taking their time and not rushing to nerf things because of the vocal idiocy. I mean minority.
vocal idiots* not vocal idiocy, that makes no sense.
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
I love the nydus, but it is a free doom drop if it is not spotted. If anything, they should limit the number of units that can be loaded into the nydus at a time and force the player to load and unload. This would require two screen multi tasking and put more of a delay on the nydus dumping out a full army. With that limitation, they could make it more awesome, harder to kill without the risk of it being game ending if it gets up.
i think the best way to change it though is to make nydus hive tech, but not easily deniable just cus you spotted it. Probably by reducing the build time and increase the hp both, and also allow the zerg to cancel building a worm too to get some (not all) money back and so they can start planting another one sooner.
then it also makes more sense for zerg's drop to be just a little better, overlords are kinda slow..maybe allow overseers to drop units, meaning if the zerg wants to have speedier dropships they spend more money and time making overlords into overseers.
About the nydus, I am not sure. Well I guess you could tweak it a little bit but in my head I could see how it quickly would go from not being used to become a major balance issue. It must be decently hard for zerg to get up worms because the potential in nydus worms are stupid high.
A small tweak might be enough to push zerg players into finally starting using it though. I never got why it was so rare in WoL. Or well I get why it was rare in the early/mid game but why in late game?
Why would you not want to have 1-3 nydus worms up once you are maxed and got 1k+ resources banked. Quicker reinforcements, easier to defend drops/counter attacks, map control, taking weird bases, setting up flanks etc.
Conclusion: All Zerg players are stupid and I am the only one that gets it!
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote: yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
I love the nydus, but it is a free doom drop if it is not spotted. If anything, they should limit the number of units that can be loaded into the nydus at a time and force the player to load and unload. This would require two screen multi tasking and put more of a delay on the nydus dumping out a full army. With that limitation, they could make it more awesome, harder to kill without the risk of it being game ending if it gets up.
i think the best way to change it though is to make nydus hive tech, but not easily deniable just cus you spotted it. Probably by reducing the build time and increase the hp both, and also allow the zerg to cancel building a worm too to get some (not all) money back and so they can start planting another one sooner.
then it also makes more sense for zerg's drop to be just a little better, overlords are kinda slow..maybe allow overseers to drop units, meaning if the zerg wants to have speedier dropships they spend more money and time making overlords into overseers.
About the nydus, I am not sure. Well I guess you could tweak it a little bit but in my head I could see how it quickly would go from not being used to become a major balance issue. It must be decently hard for zerg to get up worms because the potential in nydus worms are stupid high.
A small tweak might be enough to push zerg players into finally starting using it though. I never got why it was so rare in WoL. Or well I get why it was rare in the early/mid game but why in late game?
Why would you not want to have 1-3 nydus worms up once you are maxed and got 1k+ resources banked. Quicker reinforcements, easier to defend drops/counter attacks, map control, taking weird bases, setting up flanks etc.
Conclusion: All Zerg players are stupid and I am the only one that gets it!
I guess in the late game it is mainly the long unload time. The armies in late game are large and transporting one such can take a long time (which negates sme of the desired benefit which is saving time). This together with the risk of getting your army split if the enemy finds you in time makes it probably not worth the risk. Just walking over is also very fast with zerg speed and does not split your army (less chance of getting cought out of position).
On March 19 2013 06:25 Jisall wrote: Give corrupters the Ability "Corrupt"
Corrupter kills iteself, suiciding into the enemy aircraft dealing Scourgelike damage.
THIS ^^^^^^^^. Gives you a choice to use as a standard corruptor or suicide for high damage. Maybe nerf their standard damage even. Something anything is better than the current corruptor. Make broodlords evolve from muta and there is no problems. Corruptors become all about aa. (as in you don't need to produce them if you don't need aa... ie you can go muta and straight to broodlord without having to build a worthless unit against ground armies you might be facing.)
This sounds pretty cool actually, but I fear that this would destroy Protoss. The most annoying thing about corruptors remains that they still play a big part in dealing with colossus and while kamikazing them into colossus would make me as a zerg very happy, it would mean Protoss have nothing that could deal with the Roach/Hydra army on their doorstep.
I don't understand how people even draw the conclusion that ANY race is overpowered at the moment. Have you actually watched the games? You guys claim everyone lost to speed medivacs while the opponent clearly lost the game way before they had any effect on the game. Have you people actually taken a look at the mlg line up? There were 3 good protosses, 2 good zergs and 6 good terrans in the round of 32. Why are you still taking foreigners and low tier koreans into consideration?
Sometimes you guys just baffle me. The game has been out for a week and you talk about balance. Come back in 1 or 2 months when people might have started figuring stuff out.
Good response by David Kim/Blizzard. I expect hots to settle down faster than wol with macro abilities already almost to peak potential, we should start seeing top-level play begin in the nearish future, but for everyone the strategy side has huge uncharted zones.
I can't wait to see the first Thorzain or SlayersHellions though :D
On March 19 2013 01:32 Plansix wrote: As I said in another thread, I love DK for this. I hope they consider boosting the other races agressive abilities if it is necessary, rather than nerfing medivacs. More scouting, more agression and less turtling. Give protoss cheaper warp prisim speed out of the cyber core and zerg cheaper drops. Then make sure everyone has the ability to see this stuff coming if they put in the effort. Make the best defense a good offense and everyone will be happy.
agree with this right here.
I totally agree with david kim. I like how they're taking another approach then i heard they took during the beginning of wol.
Oh, and before i forget: especially during the games between flash and life, i really got the feeling the players were stretched to the limit of their mechanical abilities; or at least more so that in WOL. It would be great if it's possible to keep it that way.
On March 19 2013 07:28 decaf wrote: I don't understand how people even draw the conclusion that ANY race is overpowered at the moment. Have you actually watched the games? You guys claim everyone lost to speed medivacs while the opponent clearly lost the game way before they had any effect on the game. Have you people actually taken a look at the mlg line up? There were 3 good protosses, 2 good zergs and 6 good terrans in the round of 32. Why are you still taking foreigners and low tier koreans into consideration?
Sometimes you guys just baffle me. The game has been out for a week and you talk about balance. Come back in 1 or 2 months when people might have started figuring stuff out.
also, this.
Foreigners should be taken into account, but only if good enough compared to the players they're facing.
Well I certainly trust David Kim and his team`s opinion a ton more than a bunch of randoms in the community. Even some pros have difficulty remaining objective and open to things.
On March 19 2013 06:57 Msr wrote: It was pretty obvious they are not going to nerf obviously broken units right now because those broken units produce far better games. Oh well they should do atleast minor changes soon.
When you consider it took them around 18 months for them to nerf obviously broken units that produce terrible games, here's hoping they do indeed hold on those nerfs.
I truly agree with this, much like WoL in its opening days HotS will be volatile, as such making rash decisions could prove fatal, let players have sometime to figure things out before planning the next move
Swarmhost sees almost no play and mech is nowhere to be seen, there should definately be some concerns... That said, widowmine stuff was cool and MLG was just a fairly solid tournaments. I think the aggressiveness is just a temporary thing though and the game will settle very soon into boring stuff. I felt MLG was aggressive for two reasons: - lategame balance sucks in TvP and PvZ. The natural solution for a pro is just not to let it get that far, Life especially succeeded in this against MC. Fun games perhaps but signs of a bad matchup. - timings need some more figuring out, when things are unknown it's usually best to be the active player. A passive responsive style requires more knowledge of the game whereas active aggressive play is much easier to focus on since you pretty much know what will happen that game.
For example I expect early zerg aggression to be a joke soon once Terran tweaks the builds to incorporate an early siege tank or two in their macro builds or get better at widow mine usage (not letting them get spiked by a single zergling for example) Medivac buff is interesting for harass but it also contains protoss far too easily besides being rediculously broken. Colossus play or just 3 base play in general is near impossible for protoss now since doomdropping the main while threating to kill the third is too easy now. Letting the thrusters work like stim (cost of 10 hp) or just nerfing the speed a bit will be neccesary.
Overall, game turns out a bit better so far than what I thought from beta, I can appreciate widow mine especially in it's current state. TvP needs a whole lot of work though (hopefully mech fix eventually) and many tweaks need to be made still but it's going somewhere
Good call. Honestly looking at MLG, even if many people are seeing race issues, I'm looking at the top 4 of the tournament and seeing the obvious top players actually finishing at the top. It's a sign that player skill is showing rather than race imbalances with random upsets. The game definitely needs more time to work itself out.
On March 19 2013 07:56 Markwerf wrote: bleh total lackluster response..
Swarmhost sees almost no play and mech is nowhere to be seen, there should definately be some concerns... That said, widowmine stuff was cool and MLG was just a fairly solid tournaments. I think the aggressiveness is just a temporary thing though and the game will settle very soon into boring stuff. I felt MLG was aggressive for two reasons: - lategame balance sucks in TvP and PvZ. The natural solution for a pro is just not to let it get that far, Life especially succeeded in this against MC. Fun games perhaps but signs of a bad matchup. - timings need some more figuring out, when things are unknown it's usually best to be the active player. A passive responsive style requires more knowledge of the game whereas active aggressive play is much easier to focus on since you pretty much know what will happen that game.
For example I expect early zerg aggression to be a joke soon once Terran tweaks the builds to incorporate an early siege tank or two in their macro builds or get better at widow mine usage (not letting them get spiked by a single zergling for example) Medivac buff is interesting for harass but it also contains protoss far too easily besides being rediculously broken. Colossus play or just 3 base play in general is near impossible for protoss now since doomdropping the main while threating to kill the third is too easy now. Letting the thrusters work like stim (cost of 10 hp) or just nerfing the speed a bit will be neccesary.
Overall, game turns out a bit better so far than what I thought from beta, I can appreciate widow mine especially in it's current state. TvP needs a whole lot of work though (hopefully mech fix eventually) and many tweaks need to be made still but it's going somewhere
hellion wasn't seen either until a good 6 months+ into the expansion.
They should try what has been done for years in Dota. Hardly nerf the "OP" stuff, but rather throw out buffs to everything so everything seems overpowered. Strangely enough it often evens out.
Thank god the they aren't listening to all the whiners. The games been out for a week and it's had 1 tourney (that was by far the most entertaining tourney for sc2 ever -- yes opinion)... leave it be for a bit.
No mention of mech in tvp. Hopefully they will find a way for it to work in lotv. Otherwise it would be so disappointing with all 3 games, only bio is viable in tvp.
The new medivac is so mobile, it just makes perfect sense to constantly dropping because it is easier to go in and out.
Swarm hosts lack of appearance might just be Zerg pros haven't quite got enough experience on them yet. Through I have seen leenock stream where he complained they are rubbish. The problem I have with it is that you neither don't lose any, or you will lose a ton of.
imo, this is a great direction for the game to go. I would really like to see a nydus buff, to help zergs be more aggressive rather than drop buffs because i feel like if every race is good at dropping the game/races would become fairly similar.
On March 19 2013 08:00 FancyCaTSC2 wrote: They should try what has been done for years in Dota. Hardly nerf the "OP" stuff, but rather throw out buffs to everything so everything seems overpowered. Strangely enough it often evens out.
But you can't really compare DotA to Starcraft... very different games, you need different approach.
Does it matter if mech is not immediately/easily viable in TvP? Mech was the match-up in BW. So, I am not sure if it should be a concern that it is not viable in SC2. If Terran players make it work, then that will be cool. But, I don't think Blizzard should necessarily look to make mech viable in HOTS. As long as bio remains viable, varied, and fun in the MU that should be OK.
On March 19 2013 08:00 FancyCaTSC2 wrote: They should try what has been done for years in Dota. Hardly nerf the "OP" stuff, but rather throw out buffs to everything so everything seems overpowered. Strangely enough it often evens out.
That's a lot easier to do in a MOBA, where balance isn't as easily broken due in part to the teamwork element. In a StarCraft-style RTS, buffing everything else has a vast potential to completely fuck the game. Hell, any change has a chance of completely fucking the game.
Balance in an SC-style RTS is very delicate. Now, that doesn't mean I disagree with the general proposition to buff other things to help deal with the OP Medivacs. But you really have to consider the consequences of each and every change, nerf or buff.
replace corruption on corruptors with an irradiate-esque spell that only works vs air, which means that corruptors can deal with clumped air balls (voidrays and mutas) and forces ppl with those balls to micro if they want them to work
- you cant stay on mutas the whole game zvz - corruptors slightly more effective vs voidrays (super effective if the protoss doesnt micro)
On March 19 2013 01:39 peidongyang wrote: How are Mexicans in tvp fun when it basically forces toss to 1 base allin or never to move out and just die? Edit medivacs stupid autocorrect
to quote MC when was asked how was he, the only protoss, able to do so well against terrans, "they're playing Wings of Liberty, i'm playing Heart of the Swarm"
On March 19 2013 01:30 TimENT wrote:- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority.
that's interesting. i thought the results went pretty much as expected for the most part. i guess Ret has been doing better but that may or may not have anything to do with HotS. and he's still just a foreigner.
On March 19 2013 08:22 MicroTastiC wrote: to quote MC when was asked how was he, the only protoss, able to do so well against terrans, "they're playing Wings of Liberty, i'm playing Heart of the Swarm"
Typical MC bravado. He should have said "I'm all-ining every game, they're not". By the time the next Code S begins, I bet most TvP openers will be safe against his Oracle shenanigans, I wonder what he'll do then.
On March 19 2013 08:22 MicroTastiC wrote: to quote MC when was asked how was he, the only protoss, able to do so well against terrans, "they're playing Wings of Liberty, i'm playing Heart of the Swarm"
Typical MC bravado. He should have said "I'm all-ining every game, they're not". By the time the next Code S begins, I bet most TvP openers will be safe against his Oracle shenanigans, I wonder what he'll do then.
Something that abuses TvP openers that are safe against oracles shenanigans. It's MC, dude knows the metagame fairly well.
On March 19 2013 08:22 MicroTastiC wrote: to quote MC when was asked how was he, the only protoss, able to do so well against terrans, "they're playing Wings of Liberty, i'm playing Heart of the Swarm"
Typical MC bravado. He should have said "I'm all-ining every game, they're not". By the time the next Code S begins, I bet most TvP openers will be safe against his Oracle shenanigans, I wonder what he'll do then.
Some other piece of insane aggression you would never imagine working. It'll be the usual shtick with MC performing and everyone else dieing. I do think he looked more effective than the rest of the race will perform. Personally, I want to see what Rain does. Rain just thinks on another level than all of the other protoss.
I think TvP is gonna dominate Toss thinking so we won't see quite as much absolutely insane shit in PvZ. I do think though that PvZ looks verrrry very promising with recall. It looks like they are close to the perfect balance that it trims down zerg's economy lead while still letting zerg have a reasonable third.
On March 19 2013 08:22 MicroTastiC wrote: to quote MC when was asked how was he, the only protoss, able to do so well against terrans, "they're playing Wings of Liberty, i'm playing Heart of the Swarm"
Typical MC bravado. He should have said "I'm all-ining every game, they're not". By the time the next Code S begins, I bet most TvP openers will be safe against his Oracle shenanigans, I wonder what he'll do then.
Well he already got totally outplayed by Innovation (in the games he didn't get through with an unscouted all-in). Against Polt it would've probably looked similar (His TvP was close to perfection). Bomber already admitted that he wasn't really prepared for TvP, like MC wasn't for PvZ - a logical phenomena if you regard the short practice time between release and tournament. If Phoenix are the solution.... we'll see!
On March 19 2013 08:22 MicroTastiC wrote: to quote MC when was asked how was he, the only protoss, able to do so well against terrans, "they're playing Wings of Liberty, i'm playing Heart of the Swarm"
Typical MC bravado. He should have said "I'm all-ining every game, they're not". By the time the next Code S begins, I bet most TvP openers will be safe against his Oracle shenanigans, I wonder what he'll do then.
He'll prolly cry on the forums asking for nerfs. Or innovate, who knows!
On March 19 2013 08:22 MicroTastiC wrote: to quote MC when was asked how was he, the only protoss, able to do so well against terrans, "they're playing Wings of Liberty, i'm playing Heart of the Swarm"
Typical MC bravado. He should have said "I'm all-ining every game, they're not". By the time the next Code S begins, I bet most TvP openers will be safe against his Oracle shenanigans, I wonder what he'll do then.
Continue performing really well? What exactly are you trying to imply about MC anyway. He has been one of the most successful players over the longest periods of time. He is the top earner in SC2 despite playing the least successful race in WOL. I'd say he will just come up with a new style and will be just fine.
On March 19 2013 08:56 liberate71 wrote: Give Corruptors a cool-down AOE air attack (to make them viable for anti-air without needing 20 of them)
aaaaaaaaand
Give Zergs free drop upgrade from the get go, but put the speed upgrade back to lair (and maybe make it 200/200)
/Blizzard Employee
This is like the worst idea ever conceived on the internet lol.
Ill take that constructively as that was the general idea of the post Throw some insanity in with a hint of thought process (slight additional resource cost)
Agreed. Screw the people who see a race winning a couple of games with some unit and then start screaming about how overpowered the race is and it needs to be nerfed.
We've seen less mech in HOTS then in WOL, it should be a concern, especially for TvP. Otherwise, i like the attitude of "let's wait" before we nerf. Nerfing units and builds left and right is what made WOL boring IMO.
On March 19 2013 08:22 MicroTastiC wrote: to quote MC when was asked how was he, the only protoss, able to do so well against terrans, "they're playing Wings of Liberty, i'm playing Heart of the Swarm"
Typical MC bravado. He should have said "I'm all-ining every game, they're not". By the time the next Code S begins, I bet most TvP openers will be safe against his Oracle shenanigans, I wonder what he'll do then.
Typical foreigner outcry against allins/any form of early game aggression. If that's the meta, MC has adjusted and everyone else hasn't. "I wonder what he'll do". Did you say this stuff back in WoL where he was easily the most successful protoss and the most consistent?
...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
Yes! Finally they see it!
You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs.
On March 19 2013 08:22 MicroTastiC wrote: to quote MC when was asked how was he, the only protoss, able to do so well against terrans, "they're playing Wings of Liberty, i'm playing Heart of the Swarm"
Typical MC bravado. He should have said "I'm all-ining every game, they're not". By the time the next Code S begins, I bet most TvP openers will be safe against his Oracle shenanigans, I wonder what he'll do then.
I think the words you were looking for was "won games' by using builds that required his opponent to scout and punished greedy play.
...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
Yes! Finally they see it!
You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs.
We wanted it so badly. Remember when we used to say "we want macro games, because the better player win" and wanted all in removed. Now we want early aggression and more scouting.
On March 19 2013 08:22 MicroTastiC wrote: to quote MC when was asked how was he, the only protoss, able to do so well against terrans, "they're playing Wings of Liberty, i'm playing Heart of the Swarm"
Typical MC bravado. He should have said "I'm all-ining every game, they're not". By the time the next Code S begins, I bet most TvP openers will be safe against his Oracle shenanigans, I wonder what he'll do then.
"He's a one trick pony who will fall off very quickly."
...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
Yes! Finally they see it!
You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs.
Revisionist history when Babybit scv pulls and absurdly strong bunker rushes destroyed everyone.
There's a happy medium and it's myopic and stupid to pretend otherwise. Aggression is good if both players have a micro-edge or some decisions than can use to deflect the attack. If one side is just throwing economy at the other in all circumstances or they can't do any cute defenses then aggression is as boring as anything else because nothing interesting is happening.
I appreciate how Blizzard has finally stopped taking the Anaheim response to anything perceived as OP, especially when the game is nowhere near close to being understood, even at the highest levels. Just let the players work around supposed balance issues rather than taking the nerf hammer straight to the problem without giving the opportunity for strategical development. Maybe if Medivacs are so good, it's because the players utilizing them excel in controlling them, rather than the unit itself being OP. Some units are boring *cough cough Corruptors* and don't promote much action, but maybe they could modify these "boring" units to make them fit with the HotS style of swift action. If Blizzard can take a different approach to balancing, I can see them changing things for the better in the future.
On March 19 2013 10:30 PhoenixVoid wrote: I appreciate how Blizzard has finally stopped taking the Anaheim response to anything perceived as OP, especially when the game is nowhere near close to being understood, even at the highest levels. Just let the players work around supposed balance issues rather than taking the nerf hammer straight to the problem without giving the opportunity for strategical development. Maybe if Medivacs are so good, it's because the players utilizing them excel in controlling them, rather than the unit itself being OP. Some units are boring *cough cough Corruptors* and don't promote much action, but maybe they could modify these "boring" units to make them fit with the HotS style of swift action. If Blizzard can take a different approach to balancing, I can see them changing things for the better in the future.
I really like the idea that you purpose here. I mean, the Medivac boost is quite strong as it is currently implemented, but we aren't sure if it is too powerful quite yet. If Blizzard remains patient we could very well see a lot of variance in the next few weeks/months.
On March 19 2013 10:30 PhoenixVoid wrote: I appreciate how Blizzard has finally stopped taking the Anaheim response to anything perceived as OP, especially when the game is nowhere near close to being understood, even at the highest levels. Just let the players work around supposed balance issues rather than taking the nerf hammer straight to the problem without giving the opportunity for strategical development. Maybe if Medivacs are so good, it's because the players utilizing them excel in controlling them, rather than the unit itself being OP. Some units are boring *cough cough Corruptors* and don't promote much action, but maybe they could modify these "boring" units to make them fit with the HotS style of swift action. If Blizzard can take a different approach to balancing, I can see them changing things for the better in the future.
I think I actually like corrupters the way they are. Balance issues aside, the game needs a couple boring units, because it creates a contrast. If every unit is cool and has abilities and stuff to do, people quickly get bored of it. Besides, even most pros don't have the apm to use corruption while fighting with corrupters.
Taking balance issues into consideration again, given how often zergs make like 20 corrupters at once, it seems difficult to balance them having a strong ability.
...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
Yes! Finally they see it!
You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs.
Revisionist history when Babybit scv pulls and absurdly strong bunker rushes destroyed everyone.
There's a happy medium and it's myopic and stupid to pretend otherwise. Aggression is good if both players have a micro-edge or some decisions than can use to deflect the attack. If one side is just throwing economy at the other in all circumstances or they can't do any cute defenses then aggression is as boring as anything else because nothing interesting is happening.
Well, actually, nobody won championships (read, GSLs) on the back of silly rushes. Back then the actual skill was to deflect them one way or another and know when to power up or when to defend, which was truly impressive to see, and quite unlike what we had at the end of WoL.
...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
Yes! Finally they see it!
You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs.
We wanted it so badly. Remember when we used to say "we want macro games, because the better player win" and wanted all in removed. Now we want early aggression and more scouting.
Hah, oh jeez, it doesn't get more true than that. I was apart of that mentality as well.
...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
Yes! Finally they see it!
You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs.
We wanted it so badly. Remember when we used to say "we want macro games, because the better player win" and wanted all in removed. Now we want early aggression and more scouting.
Hah, oh jeez, it doesn't get more true than that. I was apart of that mentality as well.
To be fair, one thing is having an all-in/specific aggressive play being winnable and impossible to beat(for example, 6rax on Steppes of War LOL).
Other thing is having aggressive and defensive capabilities both with similar outcomes on good maps.
But yeah, I was just thinking about how we now want aggression and before all we wanted was macro But now to be aggressive with success you have to macro as well. It's different, but what you say really isnt wrong.
...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
Yes! Finally they see it!
You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs.
yes, good design is rarely about what people think they want unfortunately
I agree some of it has been very fun to watch, especially the way Life was figuring things out at in Z v T at MLG. I'm worried other zergs can follow his example though.
...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
Yes! Finally they see it!
You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs.
Uh, the community was whining because every single game was a 1 base all-in. The turtling games were hugely refreshing when all we had before were games that lasted under 10 minutes. There were players who rarely did anything but 2 base all-ins(by later standards) who were called macro players by the community. that was where things were at, and that's why people were complaining and requesting bigger maps where thirds could actually be taken and naturals actually defended.
...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
Yes! Finally they see it!
You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs.
Uh, the community was whining because every single game was a 1 base all-in. The turtling games were hugely refreshing when all we had before were games that lasted under 10 minutes. There were players who rarely did anything but 2 base all-ins(by later standards) who were called macro players by the community. that was where things were at, and that's why people were complaining and requesting bigger maps where thirds could actually be taken and naturals actually defended.
Exactly. Many people are still gloryfying 2011 ladder TvZ... Yet at Masters it was 2base marauder/hellion 3tank/marine most of the time. Even in GSL, players who did such stuff every single game were considered macro players . Faking such a push was considered the play of a champion...
we need a good mix though. i don't want every game to be a 1-base allin, but i also don't wanna watch 30 mins of turtling and getting every upgrade in the game every game.
...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
Yes! Finally they see it!
You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs.
Uh, the community was whining because every single game was a 1 base all-in. The turtling games were hugely refreshing when all we had before were games that lasted under 10 minutes. There were players who rarely did anything but 2 base all-ins(by later standards) who were called macro players by the community. that was where things were at, and that's why people were complaining and requesting bigger maps where thirds could actually be taken and naturals actually defended.
Bigger maps are fine, it's just you can't have bigger maps where every base is directly on top of each other like Metropolis and Atlantis Spaceship. They were awful maps as the "hugeness" of the maps were only the distances between the two players if you spawned cross or north south, the bases were still relatively all clustered together down at the bottom end of the map and the "middle bases" were basically winners bases, not that they ever really got taken.
I'm a meching Terran and I've basically given up on ever playing Daybreak as sure I may be able to turtle up on some bases, but due to the ridiculous narrowness and closeness of the bases, I can never send small forces to go and try and punish expansions.
Whirlwind however is a map that shouldn't be good for mech, but I've found it the total opposite. If I get a good position in the middle and defend drops well, I force him to either try to ignore me (which he can't due to positioning) or attack into me which is where my tank/hellbat army exceeds itself.
So you say he can go skytoss? Well as he's going skytoss and the bases are so far apart I can actually just expand over the entire map as he can't punish me and I can starve him out. That shows good map design as I'm always tustling/moving forward to secure more bases. In comparison you can look at Ohana (not in the pool anymore), Daybreak and Entomed Valley. You move your army out 5 steps and you've secured your half of the map, yet where the map is so small you can't punish big slow armies like skyzerg and skytoss since there's nowhere to really attack without them getting to it quickly.
Map design is heading to a much better place IMO, for example I'd say Bifrost (although a remake) and Neo Planet S are the best maps we have in SC2 currently, Bel'shir Vestige, some of the new Kespa maps, Whirlwind and some of the community maps GOM are picking up are not instant four base maps and they actually support army movement to allow people to punish slow armies and what have you. Early on large maps mainly meant there were a lot of bases, but it didn't mean they were good as the bases were still too close together.
Another thing that irks me is the way they design 4 player maps. 4 player maps in BW were great, because it was all about securing another main/nat/third cluster to expand after your third base. Until recently it's been the complete opposite with SC2 where you have fourth bases inbetween the other bases for the sake of having them. It really (for me) ruins the map if the map isn't big enough to support that sort of thing. Whirlwind is currently the best example and Entomed was the worst.
...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
Yes! Finally they see it!
You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs.
there is a huge difference between intelligent aggression and having builds that win by default against certain strats- hence the term coinflipping.
I'm surprised he even posts any comments on HotS so early. Obviously they have to wait before doing anything, and I personally would not have minded if they remained silent for some time.
I'd say this is the perfect response following MLG and IEM.
My personal thoughts: Some things I'd love to see from Blizz regarding 'super aggressive play' that is extremely fun to watch:
-Corruptors are SO boring in the game at the moment. Please implement a change that makes them powerful from a players point of view, and captivating to watch as an audience member. This could also affect Mutafests in ZvZ, speedvacs, and airtoss.
-Warp Prisms have so much potential! Maybe increase their pre-upgrade speed and make their speed upgrade cheaper/earlier?
-Void rays are also SO boring to watch. Their 'micro potential' really isn't very interesting. As with corruptors, please implement a change that makes them powerful from a players point of view, and captivating to watch as an audience member.
-Some way to keep nydus worms the same in games where the Zerg cheeses, but make them more usable throughout the game in general.
I echo your view on corruptors, as many will and agree whole heartedly on the others.
I would love to see Nydus Networks cost no/little gas but more minerals 250/0 or 200-250/100 at most, instead of 150/200, so that we can use them as proper Nydus Canals from base to base without too much of a gas investment, as well as having higher hit point buildings for doing so.
I think that way, while 100 gas isn't huge for a Nydus Worm, many people feel like it is a bit too much of an investment, namely because of how easily they can be killed (such as by 5 or so workers). I'd love to see Worms go from 200 life to somewhere 400 or 500 but remain 100 gas, rather than making them cost 100/75 but with only 200 life. Still, you could even try 500 life Nydus Worms that spit units out at twice the normal rate (which would make it 0.25 seconds to enter or to exit) and cost 75/75 and then, as things progress, have them appropriately nerfed (if required). It would be great to see all the things people could try, and with medivacs capable of moving so damned quickly every 20 seconds (I can't believe it's not 30/45/60!), transporting units and healing 5 life per energy in the late game for only 100/100, I don't see why Worms of this type shouldn't also be given a chance before a possible nerf.
...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
Yes! Finally they see it!
You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs.
I don't get it. Why can't you blame Blizzard? The complaining was never about aggression itself, it was an overabundance of 1 and 2 base all-ins, which was a legitimate issue. You said it yourself, macro game isn't a synonym for passive game, and passivity was probably the #2 most common complaint about WoL behind all-ins. Even in WoL's beta people were complaining about a lack of player interaction in macro games, especially in ZvP.
...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
Yes! Finally they see it!
You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs.
I don't get it. Why can't you blame Blizzard? The complaining was never about aggression itself, it was an overabundance of 1 and 2 base all-ins, which was a legitimate issue. You said it yourself, macro game isn't a synonym for passive game, and passivity was probably the #2 most common complaint about WoL behind all-ins. Even in WoL's beta people were complaining about a lack of player interaction in macro games, especially in ZvP.
What? In WoL beta 4gate and 1base roach rushes were considered the standard macro builds for ZvP. In which universe do they lack player interaction...
On March 19 2013 01:34 lichter wrote: Sure I'm getting slaughtered on ladder but I'm glad they are taking their time and not rushing to nerf things because of the vocal idiocy. I mean minority.
Terran were getting slaughtered in WoL and did Z get a real nerf before HotS? Nope.
...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
Yes! Finally they see it!
You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs.
Revisionist history when Babybit scv pulls and absurdly strong bunker rushes destroyed everyone.
There's a happy medium and it's myopic and stupid to pretend otherwise. Aggression is good if both players have a micro-edge or some decisions than can use to deflect the attack. If one side is just throwing economy at the other in all circumstances or they can't do any cute defenses then aggression is as boring as anything else because nothing interesting is happening.
Well, actually, nobody won championships (read, GSLs) on the back of silly rushes. Back then the actual skill was to deflect them one way or another and know when to power up or when to defend, which was truly impressive to see, and quite unlike what we had at the end of WoL.
MKP crying when he fails a 2rax close spawns metalopolis
On March 19 2013 01:32 Plansix wrote: As I said in another thread, I love DK for this. I hope they consider boosting the other races agressive abilities if it is necessary, rather than nerfing medivacs. More scouting, more agression and less turtling. Give protoss cheaper warp prisim speed out of the cyber core and zerg cheaper drops. Then make sure everyone has the ability to see this stuff coming if they put in the effort. Make the best defense a good offense and everyone will be happy.
The more you boost races the less people are in control. That is the whole problem of SC2 ... it is boosted too much compared to BW. Too many units that are too easily used (except they arent used easily anymore because its too many of them) and the whole economy part is MUCH MORE important than the strategy part of the game. It should be a freaking RTS and not a unit manager where you get higher in the league just because you can build more units easily.
On March 19 2013 05:29 Antpile wrote: I think an interesting change could be to make nydus worms invulnerable while building/still underground. Hear me out before you call it completely insane, because if I had suggested a year ago that medivacs should get a really low cooldown ability that made them book around the map at light speed it would have sounded crazy as well.
If the nydus worm was invulnerable while building, it would basically simulate the same effect you have now of when you spot a drop incoming except that zerg doesn't have the ability to just abort when he realizes he's been spotted and the defending player would know exactly when and where the 'drop' was going to occur.
So let's paint a picture. We're watching MLG, and Life decides to do some nydus worm magic to his Terran opponent. He spends the resources to start the nydus worm building in his opponents base, but because his opponent has put supply depots near the cliffs he sees it building. Now, remember boys and girls that one of the big downsides to nydus worms is how slowly stuff piles out of it. This isn't like dropships where you have your entire army on the ground in just a couple of seconds due to each dropship unloading simultaneously. This means the defender doesn't need to send his entire army to that point, he just needs enough that it would be foolish for the zerg to try to pile out of the nydus single file into a perfectly concaved enemy force. Plus, the life expectancy of the nydus worm itself with units nearby is quite low.
So in this example, Life's terran opponent sends a middling force of 12 marines, 4 marauders, and 2 medivacs to the incoming worm location. Problem solved. Short of it being late game and ultralisks piling out of that thing, it is unlikely anything coming out of the worm single file will pose any threat here. Also, he could stim and end the nydus worms life in roughly 1.2 seconds, meaning a couple of zerg units manage to get out at most. In essence, the worm is just a zergy form of dropping that is different enough to make it interesting. If you plop it down somewhere he hasn't placed structure within his main, it is his own fault just as much as if the zerg didn't have overlords out to spot a medivac drop incoming. If the zerg lures the terrans main army away from his base and then drops it somewhere the Terran can't possibly get to in time with combat units, then it is once again the same thing we see happening now, except that zerg units are no where near as cost effective and there would have to be more of them piled into the base.
This change would accomplish many things in a single stroke. First, we might actually see some nydus play happening. Secondly, Nydus worms could be used as a feint to draw some forces away from the main deathball in much the same way dropships do now because the opponent will no longer be able to shut the worm down with a just few workers. Finally, while it does give the zerg the ability to see if the drop is safe before ever putting units through it, it also a resource cost that the zerg can never get back that serves no other purpose (unlike medivacs.)
I know it sounds a little crazy, and perhaps it is; but once again, everyone would have said the same thing about medivacs with afterburners a year ago.
All this can be achieved with the way nydus is currently set up. And FYI they don't come out of the nydus that slowly, the situation you describe isn't what would really happen.
On March 19 2013 01:32 Plansix wrote: As I said in another thread, I love DK for this. I hope they consider boosting the other races agressive abilities if it is necessary, rather than nerfing medivacs. More scouting, more agression and less turtling. Give protoss cheaper warp prisim speed out of the cyber core and zerg cheaper drops. Then make sure everyone has the ability to see this stuff coming if they put in the effort. Make the best defense a good offense and everyone will be happy.
The more you boost races the less people are in control. That is the whole problem of SC2 ... it is boosted too much compared to BW. Too many units that are too easily used (except they arent used easily anymore because its too many of them) and the whole economy part is MUCH MORE important than the strategy part of the game. It should be a freaking RTS and not a unit manager where you get higher in the league just because you can build more units easily.
I'm not sure if you know this, but that's what Starcraft is. That's what it always was. Macro was always more important. That's what SC1 was and that's what SC2 is.
If you macroed better than your opponent in SC1, you won. Especially in the lower levels of play; just a 20% improvement in macro more often than not meant victory.
If you can build more units in the same amount of time than your opponent, you win. That's how the game is played.
On March 19 2013 23:34 ODKStevez wrote: I have this problem, because, "fun to watch" isn't the same as balance. Not saying this is imbalance. but I do not like this attitude going foward.
Maybe not fun to watch, but "exciting" is a good standard to have for the opening of the game. I think Blizzard is on the right path with the openings in HotS:
Get the players interacting earlier Give them tools to get as much information as they need Give them the ability to defend without tanking their build
The rise of Stargate openers for Protoss is one of the most uplifting parts of the game for me. The fact that I can interact with a terran player before we fight over taking our third base is great. And the best part is that none of it is game ending and everyone has some ability to recover.
I watched White Ra hold off a standard 2 base timing from terran yesterday with the nexus cannon and 3 carriers and forcefields. He then transitioned into colossi, zealots and carriers. I don't know if it was super viable, but it was awesome to watch.
I think blizzard just had a pretty bad basic design for wol, some things that should be obviously preblematic from just looking at them: - forcefields - zerg has no 1 supply fighting unit AND no real splash - terran has basically everything, a specialized option and counter to all things there are - colossus have no drawback beside being vulnerable - mules
I mean if you design something you have to think: what does it add? is it powerful? what drawback does it have related to it's power or the strenghts of the race? Now apply that to the medivac speedboost... Where's the drawback? Same with all of the above.
...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
Yes! Finally they see it!
You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs.
We wanted it so badly. Remember when we used to say "we want macro games, because the better player win" and wanted all in removed. Now we want early aggression and more scouting.
Hah, oh jeez, it doesn't get more true than that. I was apart of that mentality as well.
Well, one of Blizzard's biggest successes in WoL is disabusing people of that mentality. They took the "better player wins macro games" adage and proved it false. Even before the infamous zerg patch, macro games were already boring. Macro games essentially had both players sit in 2-3 bases, wait until 200/200, then agree to meet in middle.
On March 19 2013 23:34 ODKStevez wrote: I have this problem, because, "fun to watch" isn't the same as balance. Not saying this is imbalance. but I do not like this attitude going foward.
Balance is boring. Balance is not why people watch. It is not why games succeed. If you look at the aggregate of around 10 years of BW being played in Korea after the last balance patch, the overall win rates are close to being balanced. However, take a snapshot of the scene at any given time and the races are not close to being balanced. With maps being changed and the metagame shifting all the time, there has always been either an overpowered race or an underpowered race.
On March 19 2013 23:58 Freeborn wrote: I think blizzard just had a pretty bad basic design for wol, some things that should be obviously preblematic from just looking at them: - forcefields - zerg has no 1 supply fighting unit AND no real splash - terran has basically everything, a specialized option and counter to all things there are - colossus have no drawback beside being vulnerable - mules
I mean if you design something you have to think: what does it add? is it powerful? what drawback does it have related to it's power or the strenghts of the race? Now apply that to the medivac speedboost... Where's the drawback? Same with all of the above.
The drawback people seem to completely ignore when talking about drops is to do a (doom drop, 4 medivacs a doom drop really?) is that you have 4 medivacs full of units not with your army meaning you will lose any frontal engagement guarenteed.
On March 19 2013 23:58 Freeborn wrote: I think blizzard just had a pretty bad basic design for wol, some things that should be obviously preblematic from just looking at them: - forcefields - zerg has no 1 supply fighting unit AND no real splash - terran has basically everything, a specialized option and counter to all things there are - colossus have no drawback beside being vulnerable - mules
I mean if you design something you have to think: what does it add? is it powerful? what drawback does it have related to it's power or the strenghts of the race? Now apply that to the medivac speedboost... Where's the drawback? Same with all of the above.
Zerg has a 1 supply fighting unit... lings. Protoss is the one with no 1 supply unit. And let's not forget, our 2 supply units are universally inferior to everyone else's without micro (and even with micro in a lot of cases). We're heavily dependent on our 3-4 supply support units.
Colossi's drawback IS that vulnerability. Mules are fine. Terran doesn't have any more counters than any other race - if anything, Z is the imba one there because you can get out so many of a specific unit counter in a short amount of time. For example: if broods pop, as a T you need to add starports or a P needs to add stargates in order to deal with them. A Z only needs to build a single spire to get air if it decides that's the appropriate tech route, or 1 building to build hydras. I don't think this is OP, but you're certainly a bit myopic in claiming P and T are OP.
On March 19 2013 01:32 Plansix wrote: As I said in another thread, I love DK for this. I hope they consider boosting the other races agressive abilities if it is necessary, rather than nerfing medivacs. More scouting, more agression and less turtling. Give protoss cheaper warp prisim speed out of the cyber core and zerg cheaper drops. Then make sure everyone has the ability to see this stuff coming if they put in the effort. Make the best defense a good offense and everyone will be happy.
The more you boost races the less people are in control. That is the whole problem of SC2 ... it is boosted too much compared to BW. Too many units that are too easily used (except they arent used easily anymore because its too many of them) and the whole economy part is MUCH MORE important than the strategy part of the game. It should be a freaking RTS and not a unit manager where you get higher in the league just because you can build more units easily.
I'm not sure if you know this, but that's what Starcraft is. That's what it always was. Macro was always more important. That's what SC1 was and that's what SC2 is.
If you macroed better than your opponent in SC1, you won. Especially in the lower levels of play; just a 20% improvement in macro more often than not meant victory.
If you can build more units in the same amount of time than your opponent, you win. That's how the game is played.
This is perfectly true. It's not that simple though.
In SC1, macroing was harder. It's still hard to macro in SC2 (even master league players generally macro significantly worse than pro players), but it's not like in SC1 where keeping workers building throughout the game actually took some serious effort and apm. Because of this, macro was more "fun" in SC1, because it was more demanding and rewarding.
Another big issue with this is the fact that in SC2, you can macro Tier3 on 3 bases, and max. This was not possible in BW, you don't take 3 bases as toss and max on carriers. This forced a more active game. Good BW players really just want to sit back and macro, but it takes too long and it's too hard to turtle over such distances, where as in SC2 it's quite viable to take 3 bases quickly and then focus on defending them while maxing.
Starcraft should be all about macro, but it's important that the macro-part of the game is skillbased and enjoyable... in the end of WoL, it wasn't really enjoyable. It was more or less take 3 bases, max on chosen composition, a-move into opponent and hope you get a victory screen.
On March 19 2013 01:40 TimENT wrote: Some things I'd love to see from Blizz regarding 'super aggressive play' that is extremely fun to watch:
-Corruptors are SO boring in the game at the moment. Please implement a change that makes them powerful from a players point of view, and captivating to watch as an audience member. This could also affect Mutafests in ZvZ, speedvacs, and airtoss.
-Warp Prisms have so much potential! Maybe increase their pre-upgrade speed and make their speed upgrade cheaper/earlier?
-Void rays are also SO boring to watch. Their 'micro potential' really isn't very interesting. As with corruptors, please implement a change that makes them powerful from a players point of view, and captivating to watch as an audience member.
-Some way to keep nydus worms the same in games where the Zerg cheeses, but make them more usable throughout the game in general.
Excellent points, I think that Zerg really missed out on the diversified early game options (Oracle, Mothership Core, Widow Mine, Reapers, no seige tech, medivac boosters, battle hellions.... just to name a view vs. only a faster burrow for zerg). I think the new powerful options given by the expansion make Zerg no fun to play but I have come around to not wanting to swing a nerf bat everywhere to just saying that Zerg should get more options as well... As stated above: improving the corrupter, improving Nydus (more health would be great, or more armor maybe to keep probes alone from killing it), and maybe adding some other option to early and mid game zerg would bring every race up to speed for what has really been a surprisingly excitingly change of pace in HotS gameplay.
- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
First of all, if ultras had spinning queens on their backs that does zergling dps to everything in an aoecone, It would be fun to watch, but not very balanced. Im not sure fun to watch = balance.
secondly, NO Methvacs does NOT promote aggressive plays from opponents in any fucking way (except for early game all-ins before MMMM can start its bullshit). au contraire if you want to play anything else than a 1/2base all-in unless you snipe off a LOT of methvacs, they force opponents to play passively and lock down with static defense before they can move out.....
On March 19 2013 23:58 Freeborn wrote: I think blizzard just had a pretty bad basic design for wol, some things that should be obviously preblematic from just looking at them: - forcefields - zerg has no 1 supply fighting unit AND no real splash - terran has basically everything, a specialized option and counter to all things there are - colossus have no drawback beside being vulnerable - mules
I mean if you design something you have to think: what does it add? is it powerful? what drawback does it have related to it's power or the strenghts of the race? Now apply that to the medivac speedboost... Where's the drawback? Same with all of the above.
This. Oh so much this!!!
I want to be able to choose to play safe macro games but its impossible when Zergs have zero units that are cost efficient due to mfing Forcefields, unlimited unit selection, how incredibly cost efficient minerals are for Terran (combines with just a few gas units (medivac marauder mine) , mules and how much minerals that gives T, proper AOE from other units and other things.
On March 19 2013 23:58 Freeborn wrote: I think blizzard just had a pretty bad basic design for wol, some things that should be obviously preblematic from just looking at them: - forcefields - zerg has no 1 supply fighting unit AND no real splash - terran has basically everything, a specialized option and counter to all things there are - colossus have no drawback beside being vulnerable - mules
I mean if you design something you have to think: what does it add? is it powerful? what drawback does it have related to it's power or the strenghts of the race? Now apply that to the medivac speedboost... Where's the drawback? Same with all of the above.
On March 19 2013 23:58 Freeborn wrote: I think blizzard just had a pretty bad basic design for wol, some things that should be obviously preblematic from just looking at them: - forcefields - zerg has no 1 supply fighting unit AND no real splash - terran has basically everything, a specialized option and counter to all things there are - colossus have no drawback beside being vulnerable - mules
I mean if you design something you have to think: what does it add? is it powerful? what drawback does it have related to it's power or the strenghts of the race? Now apply that to the medivac speedboost... Where's the drawback? Same with all of the above.
You should look a little bit more to the right of the teamliquid side. It's called TLPD, and the foreign part has 4 zergs in the top 5, the korean has 2 zergs, and 3 protoss.
You realise that zerg was the strongest race in the last 6 months of wol, right? You realise that foreign zergs were destroying code S terrans (you know, those gods)? Stephano was bored, and decided to destroy those code S terrans with roach hydra, no kidding.
Mules are needed so that terrans can keep up with the larvae mechanic that let you make 10 drones at a time. The larvae mechanic is as "OP" as mules.
We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
should be correct? I want to understand it but i can´t.
The only problem I had with this post was the fact it so heavily seemed to focus on 'fun to watch' as a balancing factor. Should an esports invested title be fun to watch, sure it should. Should the game be balanced around fun to watch? not even remotely a good idea, if the game is balanced and there is good options available for players to play different styles it will be 'fun to watch'. If the play forces players down very narrow paths to achieve victory it will get extremely stale and 'not fun to watch' in a hurry.
I am totally fine with the concept that one race must constantly attack / put pressure on the other in order for both races to equalize. The early TvZ are so much to play and watch (not super early, but before queen nerf). Constant actions trying to control maps and stop zergs from exploding with economy, while zerg tries to stay safe until muta comes up and the role reverse, and reverse again when zerg is teching t3.
the speed medivacs created the dynamic where there are action all over the map and terran's main force get diminished. In a straight up fight though I believe zerg still have a distinctive advantage over terran, so drops are a must to reduce the economy and expansions.
but the meta will change, and who knows what might happen in the future.
On March 20 2013 07:04 Nerski wrote: The only problem I had with this post was the fact it so heavily seemed to focus on 'fun to watch' as a balancing factor. Should an esports invested title be fun to watch, sure it should. Should the game be balanced around fun to watch? not even remotely a good idea, if the game is balanced and there is good options available for players to play different styles it will be 'fun to watch'. If the play forces players down very narrow paths to achieve victory it will get extremely stale and 'not fun to watch' in a hurry.
That's not really the case. What he's saying is no balance changes because it's too early to see if something is imbalanced. Then he said that the gameplay is improving (fun to watch). Two separate thoughts. Game is designed around what will make a fun and balanced game. Balance isn't the only thing that decides what's fun. A game with only Terran would be more balanced but not as fun.
On March 19 2013 23:58 Freeborn wrote: I think blizzard just had a pretty bad basic design for wol, some things that should be obviously preblematic from just looking at them: - forcefields - zerg has no 1 supply fighting unit AND no real splash - terran has basically everything, a specialized option and counter to all things there are - colossus have no drawback beside being vulnerable - mules
I mean if you design something you have to think: what does it add? is it powerful? what drawback does it have related to it's power or the strenghts of the race? Now apply that to the medivac speedboost... Where's the drawback? Same with all of the above.
You should look a little bit more to the right of the teamliquid side. It's called TLPD, and the foreign part has 4 zergs in the top 5, the korean has 2 zergs, and 3 protoss.
You realise that zerg was the strongest race in the last 6 months of wol, right? You realise that foreign zergs were destroying code S terrans (you know, those gods)? Stephano was bored, and decided to destroy those code S terrans with roach hydra, no kidding.
Mules are needed so that terrans can keep up with the larvae mechanic that let you make 10 drones at a time. The larvae mechanic is as "OP" as mules.
Can't everybody just ragequit and never play the game ever again when he or she loses? Like, a single "IMBA IMBA IMBA" instead of the whole damn forum being this perpetual "Imba...... imba? Imbaaa... imba. imbaaaaa.....iiiiimba?".
On March 19 2013 23:58 Freeborn wrote: I think blizzard just had a pretty bad basic design for wol, some things that should be obviously preblematic from just looking at them: - forcefields - zerg has no 1 supply fighting unit AND no real splash - terran has basically everything, a specialized option and counter to all things there are - colossus have no drawback beside being vulnerable - mules
I mean if you design something you have to think: what does it add? is it powerful? what drawback does it have related to it's power or the strenghts of the race? Now apply that to the medivac speedboost... Where's the drawback? Same with all of the above.
You should look a little bit more to the right of the teamliquid side. It's called TLPD, and the foreign part has 4 zergs in the top 5, the korean has 2 zergs, and 3 protoss.
You realise that zerg was the strongest race in the last 6 months of wol, right? You realise that foreign zergs were destroying code S terrans (you know, those gods)? Stephano was bored, and decided to destroy those code S terrans with roach hydra, no kidding.
Mules are needed so that terrans can keep up with the larvae mechanic that let you make 10 drones at a time. The larvae mechanic is as "OP" as mules.
You really dont get what hes saying....
I don't atleast. He's basically saying all those things he list has no drawbacks which is at best idiotic and you can basically name every unit in the game as having no drawback if he is to say none of them have. Here I am not saying I think forcefield is a good spell for the game(even though it the game is balanced around it), but to just say you don't think it has drawbacks because you don't like it is like I said before at best idiotic.
Furtheremore I'd hardly say an ability has to have an drawback. For example concussive doesn't really have a drawback, it is always good. The fact it has to be researched isn't really a drawback, esp. since it's cheap. It was only done because it is so good in low unit situation that it was insanely OP to have rauders start the game with it.
And lastly, when thinking about afterburners yesterday. What does Blizzard exactly want speed to do? If they nerf it, in what situation are they okay with it's usage? If it is fx. to just lessen the risk of drops, one way would be to not let you use it if you have units inside the medivac, which would allow the medivac to get away easier after a drop.
I mean a lot of people are QQing about their usage, but I've yet to read something constructive from the QQ. I remember Incontrol was talking about it I believe in some show that he felt the terran was out of position, loaded up and then just sped past his army into his base. A energy requirement would not prevent that. A research would just delay the timing whe nthey are out and make it an annoyance to get speed. Would that be a fix to what everyone is QQing about? I don't think so personally.
While it should be balanced, otherwise it is no fun, I do think it is a good idea to first look if a new unit/ability is fun, and second if it can be balanced. If you look primarily at balance you simply get a boring game. Of course in the end it needs to be balanced too, but to know that you need to give it time.
I now see alot of complaining about doom drops from terrans, that for example force a toss to not move out. However from what I saw at MLG it looks to me like speedvac werent essential to the majority of the doomdrops, sure it helps and reduces enemy reaction time, but they werent required for the majority. When they were required it was mainly in TvT when the opponent made a significant number of missile turrets. But I also expect that toss will be able to find other ways to handle it besides not doing anything and staying in their base. For example send a warp prism with 2 immortals to the terran base, drop immortals, warp in round of zealots, profit. Also little known facts: Speed prism is also fast, yes boosting medivac is faster, but prism has higher sustained speed and is stronger.
We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
should be correct? I want to understand it but i can´t.
On March 20 2013 07:40 neptunusfisk wrote: Can't everybody just ragequit and never play the game ever again when he or she loses? Like, a single "IMBA IMBA IMBA" instead of the whole damn forum being this perpetual "Imba...... imba? Imbaaa... imba. imbaaaaa.....iiiiimba?".
We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
should be correct? I want to understand it but i can´t.
He wants us to do pre-medevac timing attacks or all ins every game or die. Just like the good old pre-broodlord timing attacks in WoL.
EPT
