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On March 19 2013 09:55 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 09:53 Xxio wrote:...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch. Yes! Finally they see it! You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs.
there is a huge difference between intelligent aggression and having builds that win by default against certain strats- hence the term coinflipping.
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12519 Posts
I'm surprised he even posts any comments on HotS so early. Obviously they have to wait before doing anything, and I personally would not have minded if they remained silent for some time.
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On March 19 2013 01:30 TimENT wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/8197652564?page=1I'd say this is the perfect response following MLG and IEM. My personal thoughts: Some things I'd love to see from Blizz regarding 'super aggressive play' that is extremely fun to watch: -Corruptors are SO boring in the game at the moment. Please implement a change that makes them powerful from a players point of view, and captivating to watch as an audience member. This could also affect Mutafests in ZvZ, speedvacs, and airtoss. -Warp Prisms have so much potential! Maybe increase their pre-upgrade speed and make their speed upgrade cheaper/earlier? -Void rays are also SO boring to watch. Their 'micro potential' really isn't very interesting. As with corruptors, please implement a change that makes them powerful from a players point of view, and captivating to watch as an audience member. -Some way to keep nydus worms the same in games where the Zerg cheeses, but make them more usable throughout the game in general.
I echo your view on corruptors, as many will and agree whole heartedly on the others.
I would love to see Nydus Networks cost no/little gas but more minerals 250/0 or 200-250/100 at most, instead of 150/200, so that we can use them as proper Nydus Canals from base to base without too much of a gas investment, as well as having higher hit point buildings for doing so.
I think that way, while 100 gas isn't huge for a Nydus Worm, many people feel like it is a bit too much of an investment, namely because of how easily they can be killed (such as by 5 or so workers).
I'd love to see Worms go from 200 life to somewhere 400 or 500 but remain 100 gas, rather than making them cost 100/75 but with only 200 life.
Still, you could even try 500 life Nydus Worms that spit units out at twice the normal rate (which would make it 0.25 seconds to enter or to exit) and cost 75/75 and then, as things progress, have them appropriately nerfed (if required).
It would be great to see all the things people could try, and with medivacs capable of moving so damned quickly every 20 seconds (I can't believe it's not 30/45/60!), transporting units and healing 5 life per energy in the late game for only 100/100, I don't see why Worms of this type shouldn't also be given a chance before a possible nerf.
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On March 19 2013 09:55 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 09:53 Xxio wrote:...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch. Yes! Finally they see it! You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs.
I don't get it. Why can't you blame Blizzard? The complaining was never about aggression itself, it was an overabundance of 1 and 2 base all-ins, which was a legitimate issue. You said it yourself, macro game isn't a synonym for passive game, and passivity was probably the #2 most common complaint about WoL behind all-ins. Even in WoL's beta people were complaining about a lack of player interaction in macro games, especially in ZvP.
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On March 19 2013 21:29 Rococo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 09:55 Itsmedudeman wrote:On March 19 2013 09:53 Xxio wrote:...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch. Yes! Finally they see it! You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs. I don't get it. Why can't you blame Blizzard? The complaining was never about aggression itself, it was an overabundance of 1 and 2 base all-ins, which was a legitimate issue. You said it yourself, macro game isn't a synonym for passive game, and passivity was probably the #2 most common complaint about WoL behind all-ins. Even in WoL's beta people were complaining about a lack of player interaction in macro games, especially in ZvP.
What? In WoL beta 4gate and 1base roach rushes were considered the standard macro builds for ZvP. In which universe do they lack player interaction...
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On March 19 2013 01:34 lichter wrote:
Sure I'm getting slaughtered on ladder but I'm glad they are taking their time and not rushing to nerf things because of the vocal idiocy. I mean minority.
Terran were getting slaughtered in WoL and did Z get a real nerf before HotS? Nope.
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On March 19 2013 10:39 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 10:29 Sabu113 wrote:On March 19 2013 09:55 Itsmedudeman wrote: On March 19 2013 09:53 Xxio wrote:...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch. Yes! Finally they see it! You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs. Revisionist history when Babybit scv pulls and absurdly strong bunker rushes destroyed everyone. There's a happy medium and it's myopic and stupid to pretend otherwise. Aggression is good if both players have a micro-edge or some decisions than can use to deflect the attack. If one side is just throwing economy at the other in all circumstances or they can't do any cute defenses then aggression is as boring as anything else because nothing interesting is happening. Well, actually, nobody won championships (read, GSLs) on the back of silly rushes. Back then the actual skill was to deflect them one way or another and know when to power up or when to defend, which was truly impressive to see, and quite unlike what we had at the end of WoL.
MKP crying when he fails a 2rax close spawns metalopolis
LOL
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On March 19 2013 01:32 Plansix wrote:
As I said in another thread, I love DK for this. I hope they consider boosting the other races agressive abilities if it is necessary, rather than nerfing medivacs. More scouting, more agression and less turtling. Give protoss cheaper warp prisim speed out of the cyber core and zerg cheaper drops. Then make sure everyone has the ability to see this stuff coming if they put in the effort. Make the best defense a good offense and everyone will be happy.
The more you boost races the less people are in control. That is the whole problem of SC2 ... it is boosted too much compared to BW. Too many units that are too easily used (except they arent used easily anymore because its too many of them) and the whole economy part is MUCH MORE important than the strategy part of the game. It should be a freaking RTS and not a unit manager where you get higher in the league just because you can build more units easily.
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On March 19 2013 05:29 Antpile wrote:
I think an interesting change could be to make nydus worms invulnerable while building/still underground. Hear me out before you call it completely insane, because if I had suggested a year ago that medivacs should get a really low cooldown ability that made them book around the map at light speed it would have sounded crazy as well.
If the nydus worm was invulnerable while building, it would basically simulate the same effect you have now of when you spot a drop incoming except that zerg doesn't have the ability to just abort when he realizes he's been spotted and the defending player would know exactly when and where the 'drop' was going to occur.
So let's paint a picture. We're watching MLG, and Life decides to do some nydus worm magic to his Terran opponent. He spends the resources to start the nydus worm building in his opponents base, but because his opponent has put supply depots near the cliffs he sees it building. Now, remember boys and girls that one of the big downsides to nydus worms is how slowly stuff piles out of it. This isn't like dropships where you have your entire army on the ground in just a couple of seconds due to each dropship unloading simultaneously. This means the defender doesn't need to send his entire army to that point, he just needs enough that it would be foolish for the zerg to try to pile out of the nydus single file into a perfectly concaved enemy force. Plus, the life expectancy of the nydus worm itself with units nearby is quite low.
So in this example, Life's terran opponent sends a middling force of 12 marines, 4 marauders, and 2 medivacs to the incoming worm location. Problem solved. Short of it being late game and ultralisks piling out of that thing, it is unlikely anything coming out of the worm single file will pose any threat here. Also, he could stim and end the nydus worms life in roughly 1.2 seconds, meaning a couple of zerg units manage to get out at most. In essence, the worm is just a zergy form of dropping that is different enough to make it interesting. If you plop it down somewhere he hasn't placed structure within his main, it is his own fault just as much as if the zerg didn't have overlords out to spot a medivac drop incoming. If the zerg lures the terrans main army away from his base and then drops it somewhere the Terran can't possibly get to in time with combat units, then it is once again the same thing we see happening now, except that zerg units are no where near as cost effective and there would have to be more of them piled into the base.
This change would accomplish many things in a single stroke. First, we might actually see some nydus play happening. Secondly, Nydus worms could be used as a feint to draw some forces away from the main deathball in much the same way dropships do now because the opponent will no longer be able to shut the worm down with a just few workers. Finally, while it does give the zerg the ability to see if the drop is safe before ever putting units through it, it also a resource cost that the zerg can never get back that serves no other purpose (unlike medivacs.)
I know it sounds a little crazy, and perhaps it is; but once again, everyone would have said the same thing about medivacs with afterburners a year ago.
All this can be achieved with the way nydus is currently set up. And FYI they don't come out of the nydus that slowly, the situation you describe isn't what would really happen.
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I have this problem, because, "fun to watch" isn't the same as balance. Not saying this is imbalance. but I do not like this attitude going foward.
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On March 19 2013 22:57 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:32 Plansix wrote:
As I said in another thread, I love DK for this. I hope they consider boosting the other races agressive abilities if it is necessary, rather than nerfing medivacs. More scouting, more agression and less turtling. Give protoss cheaper warp prisim speed out of the cyber core and zerg cheaper drops. Then make sure everyone has the ability to see this stuff coming if they put in the effort. Make the best defense a good offense and everyone will be happy. The more you boost races the less people are in control. That is the whole problem of SC2 ... it is boosted too much compared to BW. Too many units that are too easily used (except they arent used easily anymore because its too many of them) and the whole economy part is MUCH MORE important than the strategy part of the game. It should be a freaking RTS and not a unit manager where you get higher in the league just because you can build more units easily.
I'm not sure if you know this, but that's what Starcraft is. That's what it always was. Macro was always more important. That's what SC1 was and that's what SC2 is.
If you macroed better than your opponent in SC1, you won. Especially in the lower levels of play; just a 20% improvement in macro more often than not meant victory.
If you can build more units in the same amount of time than your opponent, you win. That's how the game is played.
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On March 19 2013 23:34 ODKStevez wrote:
I have this problem, because, "fun to watch" isn't the same as balance. Not saying this is imbalance. but I do not like this attitude going foward.
Maybe not fun to watch, but "exciting" is a good standard to have for the opening of the game. I think Blizzard is on the right path with the openings in HotS:
Get the players interacting earlier
Give them tools to get as much information as they need
Give them the ability to defend without tanking their build
The rise of Stargate openers for Protoss is one of the most uplifting parts of the game for me. The fact that I can interact with a terran player before we fight over taking our third base is great. And the best part is that none of it is game ending and everyone has some ability to recover.
I watched White Ra hold off a standard 2 base timing from terran yesterday with the nexus cannon and 3 carriers and forcefields. He then transitioned into colossi, zealots and carriers. I don't know if it was super viable, but it was awesome to watch.
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Germany421 Posts
I think blizzard just had a pretty bad basic design for wol, some things that should be obviously preblematic from just looking at them:
- forcefields
- zerg has no 1 supply fighting unit AND no real splash
- terran has basically everything, a specialized option and counter to all things there are
- colossus have no drawback beside being vulnerable
- mules
I mean if you design something you have to think: what does it add? is it powerful? what drawback does it have related to it's power or the strenghts of the race?
Now apply that to the medivac speedboost...
Where's the drawback?
Same with all of the above.
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On March 19 2013 10:42 Spacekyod wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 09:57 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 09:55 Itsmedudeman wrote:On March 19 2013 09:53 Xxio wrote:...but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch. Yes! Finally they see it! You can't blame them for the way WoL turned out. It was the community whine about aggression and wanting "macro" games that it turned out that way. Although hopefully they understand that macro =/= turtling to 200 deathballs. We wanted it so badly. Remember when we used to say "we want macro games, because the better player win" and wanted all in removed. Now we want early aggression and more scouting. Hah, oh jeez, it doesn't get more true than that. I was apart of that mentality as well.
Well, one of Blizzard's biggest successes in WoL is disabusing people of that mentality. They took the "better player wins macro games" adage and proved it false. Even before the infamous zerg patch, macro games were already boring. Macro games essentially had both players sit in 2-3 bases, wait until 200/200, then agree to meet in middle.
On March 19 2013 23:34 ODKStevez wrote:
I have this problem, because, "fun to watch" isn't the same as balance. Not saying this is imbalance. but I do not like this attitude going foward.
Balance is boring. Balance is not why people watch. It is not why games succeed. If you look at the aggregate of around 10 years of BW being played in Korea after the last balance patch, the overall win rates are close to being balanced. However, take a snapshot of the scene at any given time and the races are not close to being balanced. With maps being changed and the metagame shifting all the time, there has always been either an overpowered race or an underpowered race.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On March 19 2013 23:58 Freeborn wrote:
I think blizzard just had a pretty bad basic design for wol, some things that should be obviously preblematic from just looking at them:
- forcefields
- zerg has no 1 supply fighting unit AND no real splash
- terran has basically everything, a specialized option and counter to all things there are
- colossus have no drawback beside being vulnerable
- mules
I mean if you design something you have to think: what does it add? is it powerful? what drawback does it have related to it's power or the strenghts of the race?
Now apply that to the medivac speedboost...
Where's the drawback?
Same with all of the above.
The drawback people seem to completely ignore when talking about drops is to do a (doom drop, 4 medivacs a doom drop really?) is that you have 4 medivacs full of units not with your army meaning you will lose any frontal engagement guarenteed.
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On March 19 2013 23:58 Freeborn wrote:
I think blizzard just had a pretty bad basic design for wol, some things that should be obviously preblematic from just looking at them:
- forcefields
- zerg has no 1 supply fighting unit AND no real splash
- terran has basically everything, a specialized option and counter to all things there are
- colossus have no drawback beside being vulnerable
- mules
I mean if you design something you have to think: what does it add? is it powerful? what drawback does it have related to it's power or the strenghts of the race?
Now apply that to the medivac speedboost...
Where's the drawback?
Same with all of the above.
Zerg has a 1 supply fighting unit... lings. Protoss is the one with no 1 supply unit. And let's not forget, our 2 supply units are universally inferior to everyone else's without micro (and even with micro in a lot of cases). We're heavily dependent on our 3-4 supply support units.
Colossi's drawback IS that vulnerability. Mules are fine. Terran doesn't have any more counters than any other race - if anything, Z is the imba one there because you can get out so many of a specific unit counter in a short amount of time. For example: if broods pop, as a T you need to add starports or a P needs to add stargates in order to deal with them. A Z only needs to build a single spire to get air if it decides that's the appropriate tech route, or 1 building to build hydras. I don't think this is OP, but you're certainly a bit myopic in claiming P and T are OP.
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On March 19 2013 23:40 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 22:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 01:32 Plansix wrote:
As I said in another thread, I love DK for this. I hope they consider boosting the other races agressive abilities if it is necessary, rather than nerfing medivacs. More scouting, more agression and less turtling. Give protoss cheaper warp prisim speed out of the cyber core and zerg cheaper drops. Then make sure everyone has the ability to see this stuff coming if they put in the effort. Make the best defense a good offense and everyone will be happy. The more you boost races the less people are in control. That is the whole problem of SC2 ... it is boosted too much compared to BW. Too many units that are too easily used (except they arent used easily anymore because its too many of them) and the whole economy part is MUCH MORE important than the strategy part of the game. It should be a freaking RTS and not a unit manager where you get higher in the league just because you can build more units easily. I'm not sure if you know this, but that's what Starcraft is. That's what it always was. Macro was always more important. That's what SC1 was and that's what SC2 is. If you macroed better than your opponent in SC1, you won. Especially in the lower levels of play; just a 20% improvement in macro more often than not meant victory. If you can build more units in the same amount of time than your opponent, you win. That's how the game is played.
This is perfectly true. It's not that simple though.
In SC1, macroing was harder. It's still hard to macro in SC2 (even master league players generally macro significantly worse than pro players), but it's not like in SC1 where keeping workers building throughout the game actually took some serious effort and apm. Because of this, macro was more "fun" in SC1, because it was more demanding and rewarding.
Another big issue with this is the fact that in SC2, you can macro Tier3 on 3 bases, and max. This was not possible in BW, you don't take 3 bases as toss and max on carriers. This forced a more active game. Good BW players really just want to sit back and macro, but it takes too long and it's too hard to turtle over such distances, where as in SC2 it's quite viable to take 3 bases quickly and then focus on defending them while maxing.
Starcraft should be all about macro, but it's important that the macro-part of the game is skillbased and enjoyable... in the end of WoL, it wasn't really enjoyable. It was more or less take 3 bases, max on chosen composition, a-move into opponent and hope you get a victory screen.
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How is nydus not usable? Its the only way to instantly transfer your whole army from point 1 to point b.
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On March 20 2013 00:58 lorestarcraft wrote:
How is nydus not usable? Its the only way to instantly transfer your whole army from point 1 to point b.
Dude, try nydus first.. In time you will transfer whole army through the nydus you could reach that point by ground twice as fast lol.
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On March 19 2013 01:40 TimENT wrote:
Some things I'd love to see from Blizz regarding 'super aggressive play' that is extremely fun to watch:
-Corruptors are SO boring in the game at the moment. Please implement a change that makes them powerful from a players point of view, and captivating to watch as an audience member. This could also affect Mutafests in ZvZ, speedvacs, and airtoss.
-Warp Prisms have so much potential! Maybe increase their pre-upgrade speed and make their speed upgrade cheaper/earlier?
-Void rays are also SO boring to watch. Their 'micro potential' really isn't very interesting. As with corruptors, please implement a change that makes them powerful from a players point of view, and captivating to watch as an audience member.
-Some way to keep nydus worms the same in games where the Zerg cheeses, but make them more usable throughout the game in general.
Excellent points, I think that Zerg really missed out on the diversified early game options (Oracle, Mothership Core, Widow Mine, Reapers, no seige tech, medivac boosters, battle hellions.... just to name a view vs. only a faster burrow for zerg). I think the new powerful options given by the expansion make Zerg no fun to play but I have come around to not wanting to swing a nerf bat everywhere to just saying that Zerg should get more options as well... As stated above: improving the corrupter, improving Nydus (more health would be great, or more armor maybe to keep probes alone from killing it), and maybe adding some other option to early and mid game zerg would bring every race up to speed for what has really been a surprisingly excitingly change of pace in HotS gameplay.
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EPT
