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- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
First of all, if ultras had spinning queens on their backs that does zergling dps to everything in an aoecone, It would be fun to watch, but not very balanced. Im not sure fun to watch = balance.
secondly, NO Methvacs does NOT promote aggressive plays from opponents in any fucking way (except for early game all-ins before MMMM can start its bullshit). au contraire if you want to play anything else than a 1/2base all-in unless you snipe off a LOT of methvacs, they force opponents to play passively and lock down with static defense before they can move out.....
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On March 19 2013 23:58 Freeborn wrote:
I think blizzard just had a pretty bad basic design for wol, some things that should be obviously preblematic from just looking at them:
- forcefields
- zerg has no 1 supply fighting unit AND no real splash
- terran has basically everything, a specialized option and counter to all things there are
- colossus have no drawback beside being vulnerable
- mules
I mean if you design something you have to think: what does it add? is it powerful? what drawback does it have related to it's power or the strenghts of the race?
Now apply that to the medivac speedboost...
Where's the drawback?
Same with all of the above.
This. Oh so much this!!!
I want to be able to choose to play safe macro games but its impossible when Zergs have zero units that are cost efficient due to mfing Forcefields, unlimited unit selection, how incredibly cost efficient minerals are for Terran (combines with just a few gas units (medivac marauder mine) , mules and how much minerals that gives T, proper AOE from other units and other things.
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On March 19 2013 23:58 Freeborn wrote:
I think blizzard just had a pretty bad basic design for wol, some things that should be obviously preblematic from just looking at them:
- forcefields
- zerg has no 1 supply fighting unit AND no real splash
- terran has basically everything, a specialized option and counter to all things there are
- colossus have no drawback beside being vulnerable
- mules
I mean if you design something you have to think: what does it add? is it powerful? what drawback does it have related to it's power or the strenghts of the race?
Now apply that to the medivac speedboost...
Where's the drawback?
Same with all of the above.
I wonder what race you play.
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On March 19 2013 23:58 Freeborn wrote:
I think blizzard just had a pretty bad basic design for wol, some things that should be obviously preblematic from just looking at them:
- forcefields
- zerg has no 1 supply fighting unit AND no real splash
- terran has basically everything, a specialized option and counter to all things there are
- colossus have no drawback beside being vulnerable
- mules
I mean if you design something you have to think: what does it add? is it powerful? what drawback does it have related to it's power or the strenghts of the race?
Now apply that to the medivac speedboost...
Where's the drawback?
Same with all of the above.
You should look a little bit more to the right of the teamliquid side. It's called TLPD, and the foreign part has 4 zergs in the top 5, the korean has 2 zergs, and 3 protoss.
You realise that zerg was the strongest race in the last 6 months of wol, right? You realise that foreign zergs were destroying code S terrans (you know, those gods)? Stephano was bored, and decided to destroy those code S terrans with roach hydra, no kidding.
Mules are needed so that terrans can keep up with the larvae mechanic that let you make 10 drones at a time. The larvae mechanic is as "OP" as mules.
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Can someone explain to me why this
We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
should be correct? I want to understand it but i can´t.
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The only problem I had with this post was the fact it so heavily seemed to focus on 'fun to watch' as a balancing factor. Should an esports invested title be fun to watch, sure it should. Should the game be balanced around fun to watch? not even remotely a good idea, if the game is balanced and there is good options available for players to play different styles it will be 'fun to watch'. If the play forces players down very narrow paths to achieve victory it will get extremely stale and 'not fun to watch' in a hurry.
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I am totally fine with the concept that one race must constantly attack / put pressure on the other in order for both races to equalize. The early TvZ are so much to play and watch (not super early, but before queen nerf). Constant actions trying to control maps and stop zergs from exploding with economy, while zerg tries to stay safe until muta comes up and the role reverse, and reverse again when zerg is teching t3.
the speed medivacs created the dynamic where there are action all over the map and terran's main force get diminished. In a straight up fight though I believe zerg still have a distinctive advantage over terran, so drops are a must to reduce the economy and expansions.
but the meta will change, and who knows what might happen in the future.
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On March 20 2013 07:04 Nerski wrote:
The only problem I had with this post was the fact it so heavily seemed to focus on 'fun to watch' as a balancing factor. Should an esports invested title be fun to watch, sure it should. Should the game be balanced around fun to watch? not even remotely a good idea, if the game is balanced and there is good options available for players to play different styles it will be 'fun to watch'. If the play forces players down very narrow paths to achieve victory it will get extremely stale and 'not fun to watch' in a hurry.
That's not really the case. What he's saying is no balance changes because it's too early to see if something is imbalanced. Then he said that the gameplay is improving (fun to watch). Two separate thoughts. Game is designed around what will make a fun and balanced game. Balance isn't the only thing that decides what's fun. A game with only Terran would be more balanced but not as fun.
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On March 20 2013 06:48 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 23:58 Freeborn wrote:
I think blizzard just had a pretty bad basic design for wol, some things that should be obviously preblematic from just looking at them:
- forcefields
- zerg has no 1 supply fighting unit AND no real splash
- terran has basically everything, a specialized option and counter to all things there are
- colossus have no drawback beside being vulnerable
- mules
I mean if you design something you have to think: what does it add? is it powerful? what drawback does it have related to it's power or the strenghts of the race?
Now apply that to the medivac speedboost...
Where's the drawback?
Same with all of the above. You should look a little bit more to the right of the teamliquid side. It's called TLPD, and the foreign part has 4 zergs in the top 5, the korean has 2 zergs, and 3 protoss. You realise that zerg was the strongest race in the last 6 months of wol, right? You realise that foreign zergs were destroying code S terrans (you know, those gods)? Stephano was bored, and decided to destroy those code S terrans with roach hydra, no kidding. Mules are needed so that terrans can keep up with the larvae mechanic that let you make 10 drones at a time. The larvae mechanic is as "OP" as mules.
You really dont get what hes saying....
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Can't everybody just ragequit and never play the game ever again when he or she loses? Like, a single "IMBA IMBA IMBA" instead of the whole damn forum being this perpetual "Imba...... imba? Imbaaa... imba. imbaaaaa.....iiiiimba?".
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On March 20 2013 07:38 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 06:48 Snowbear wrote:On March 19 2013 23:58 Freeborn wrote:
I think blizzard just had a pretty bad basic design for wol, some things that should be obviously preblematic from just looking at them:
- forcefields
- zerg has no 1 supply fighting unit AND no real splash
- terran has basically everything, a specialized option and counter to all things there are
- colossus have no drawback beside being vulnerable
- mules
I mean if you design something you have to think: what does it add? is it powerful? what drawback does it have related to it's power or the strenghts of the race?
Now apply that to the medivac speedboost...
Where's the drawback?
Same with all of the above. You should look a little bit more to the right of the teamliquid side. It's called TLPD, and the foreign part has 4 zergs in the top 5, the korean has 2 zergs, and 3 protoss. You realise that zerg was the strongest race in the last 6 months of wol, right? You realise that foreign zergs were destroying code S terrans (you know, those gods)? Stephano was bored, and decided to destroy those code S terrans with roach hydra, no kidding. Mules are needed so that terrans can keep up with the larvae mechanic that let you make 10 drones at a time. The larvae mechanic is as "OP" as mules. You really dont get what hes saying....
I don't atleast. He's basically saying all those things he list has no drawbacks which is at best idiotic and you can basically name every unit in the game as having no drawback if he is to say none of them have. Here I am not saying I think forcefield is a good spell for the game(even though it the game is balanced around it), but to just say you don't think it has drawbacks because you don't like it is like I said before at best idiotic.
Furtheremore I'd hardly say an ability has to have an drawback. For example concussive doesn't really have a drawback, it is always good. The fact it has to be researched isn't really a drawback, esp. since it's cheap. It was only done because it is so good in low unit situation that it was insanely OP to have rauders start the game with it.
And lastly, when thinking about afterburners yesterday. What does Blizzard exactly want speed to do? If they nerf it, in what situation are they okay with it's usage? If it is fx. to just lessen the risk of drops, one way would be to not let you use it if you have units inside the medivac, which would allow the medivac to get away easier after a drop.
I mean a lot of people are QQing about their usage, but I've yet to read something constructive from the QQ. I remember Incontrol was talking about it I believe in some show that he felt the terran was out of position, loaded up and then just sped past his army into his base. A energy requirement would not prevent that. A research would just delay the timing whe nthey are out and make it an annoyance to get speed. Would that be a fix to what everyone is QQing about? I don't think so personally.
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While it should be balanced, otherwise it is no fun, I do think it is a good idea to first look if a new unit/ability is fun, and second if it can be balanced. If you look primarily at balance you simply get a boring game. Of course in the end it needs to be balanced too, but to know that you need to give it time.
I now see alot of complaining about doom drops from terrans, that for example force a toss to not move out. However from what I saw at MLG it looks to me like speedvac werent essential to the majority of the doomdrops, sure it helps and reduces enemy reaction time, but they werent required for the majority. When they were required it was mainly in TvT when the opponent made a significant number of missile turrets.
But I also expect that toss will be able to find other ways to handle it besides not doing anything and staying in their base. For example send a warp prism with 2 immortals to the terran base, drop immortals, warp in round of zealots, profit. Also little known facts: Speed prism is also fast, yes boosting medivac is faster, but prism has higher sustained speed and is stronger.
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On March 20 2013 06:54 Nachtwind wrote:Can someone explain to me why this Show nested quote +We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch. should be correct? I want to understand it but i can´t.
I guess you didn't watch MLG.
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On March 20 2013 07:40 neptunusfisk wrote:
Can't everybody just ragequit and never play the game ever again when he or she loses? Like, a single "IMBA IMBA IMBA" instead of the whole damn forum being this perpetual "Imba...... imba? Imbaaa... imba. imbaaaaa.....iiiiimba?".
this.
User was warned for this post
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On March 20 2013 06:54 Nachtwind wrote:Can someone explain to me why this Show nested quote +We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch. should be correct? I want to understand it but i can´t.
He wants us to do pre-medevac timing attacks or all ins every game or die. Just like the good old pre-broodlord timing attacks in WoL.
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EPT
