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On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote:
yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
I agree. Imo the Nydus should pop out twice as fast. Would make for interesting games.
Blizzard waiting it out is smart though, its a dumb idea to patch something after only 1 tournament
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On March 19 2013 01:44 Orek wrote:
Take your time, but don't take too much time like it was for the last 9 months of WoL. Stepping in too early is bad, and doing nothing after the problem is evident is equally bad. DK has a tough job.
+1000
Waiting too long to patch could cause a massive number of non-terran players to quit in frustration. The crack-vacs might be "fun to watch" at the moment, but it will get old. Broodlord/Infestor might have been fun to watch at first too, but it was bad for the game.
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I am fine with them taking their time before implementing any changes, but what is somewhat irritating is to see David Kim say that the players aren't even close to figuring out the game even though they've already stated before that they just create the units and see what players do with them. Saying that players haven't figured out the game is either a statement that he's in position to make, or they know what works best for the match ups and that contradicts their previous statements.
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People whining like they know what the meta will settle into or the future for a game that was just released 6 days ago (last time I've heard, the beta had not already established the meta, and that fortune-tellers were fake). Or they just want to WIN NAO instead of coming up with ways (putting in work) to counter new strategies or coming up with new ones themselves. After all it's easier to whine.
I'd say the best course of action for now is to sit back, wait, and see. Force the evolution/adaptation of the players if you will, especially if they don't know when the next blizzard patch will be. Maybe even the new units will be brought into play more often (remember when defilers weren't used in bw). We just might see more exciting games and better balance as a result of it.
If something becomes a constant problem for a while (like idk, 2 months?) where players can absolutely come up with nothing, blizzard can always do something about it down the line. SCII patch cycles are still more frequent and shorter than bw. I guess the only thing now is deciding how long to wait (set a standard) before they make changes. Or not since I believe players are more willing to experiment if they don't know what blizzard will do in the future. I mean, if you're on your last leg you're willing to try anything to survive and win right? If not, you can just die (or whine to blizzard, which I think is only acceptable after you tried for a while. 6 days is certainly too soon).
It'll be like an experiment, it'll be fun. I just hope players won't resort to poker/gamble openings too much as a result, since that is also the easier path to take...
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agression is nice, but a metagame where you don't go beyond 1base is not. If Blizz wants to increase agressive potential of Z & P I'm fine with it as long as they don't open up additional 1/2 base allin possibilities - the ones that exist are more than enough -_-
Edit: And from my personal ladder experience in addition to what I've seen at MLG, it's very clear that Medivac Speedbooster is too strong!
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On March 19 2013 02:07 Salv wrote:
I am fine with them taking their time before implementing any changes, but what is somewhat irritating is to see David Kim say that the players aren't even close to figuring out the game even though they've already stated before that they just create the units and see what players do with them. Saying that players haven't figured out the game is either a statement that he's in position to make, or they know what works best for the match ups and that contradicts their previous statements.
Well maybe David Kim and the balance teams has some ideas how to use the new units and the players don't use it?
I think its fairly impossible to design units without thinking at least of some ideas how to use them.
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On March 19 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:32 hellokittySC2 wrote:
i don't know *fun to watch* for medivac speed is the correct correlation to balance. He didn't say medivac speed was fun to watch. He said agressive play is fun to watch, which is true. Agression is better than styles where people just try to get a single advantage and macro their way over their opponent.
What's wrong with econ games...o____O? Aggression isn't always fun to watch.
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On March 19 2013 02:07 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:44 Orek wrote:
Take your time, but don't take too much time like it was for the last 9 months of WoL. Stepping in too early is bad, and doing nothing after the problem is evident is equally bad. DK has a tough job. +1000 Waiting too long to patch could cause a massive number of non-terran players to quit in frustration. The crack-vacs might be "fun to watch" at the moment, but it will get old. Broodlord/Infestor might have been fun to watch at first too, but it was bad for the game.
The difference is that BL/Infestor was never fun to watch.
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On March 19 2013 02:09 TeeTS wrote:
agression is nice, but a metagame where you don't go beyond 1base is not. If Blizz wants to increase agressive potential of Z & P I'm fine with it as long as they don't open up additional 1/2 base allin possibilities - the ones that exist are more than enough -_-
Edit: And from my personal ladder experience in addition to what I've seen at MLG, it's very clear that Medivac Speedbooster is too strong!
Most MLG games went past 2 base...
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I wonder if MVP had of won MLG that the nefs would have started XD.
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On March 19 2013 02:06 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 02:02 TimENT wrote:On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote:
yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well Life is a pretty good example of someone who takes the basic units of Z (Lings and Mutalisks) and turns them into "stronger, agressive attack method potential" units. Leenock also commonly uses drops and Nydus networks as extremely aggressive tactics. However, I would love to see drops/nydus buffed in a way that keeps them at their current state of 'chessyness' but makes them an overall consistent tactic for Zerg players to use. I remember when baneling drops were used by DRG vs P all the time. I've done a lot of thinking that could give Zerg more early/midgame aggressive tactics: What if Blizz merged the drops & overlord speed upgrades? What if Blizz the merged roach speed and burrow upgrades? What if Blizz increased the speed of corruptors, lowered their health, and gave them the ability to 'corrupt' enemy air units(attach to them and deal light AoE, and they can be targeted, but it also kills the unit it attaches to)? What if Blizz decreased the cost of nydus worms if they are placed ON creep? Just a couple ideas... How is cheaper Nydus on creep going to make for more aggression in any matchup other than ZvZ?
Purely theorycrafting here...
Maybe Zerg players will place a couple Nydus worms off creep in an aggression position, and also place nydus worms on creep near different bases so they can move across the map even quicker? No idea here...
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On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote:
yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well
Faster mutalisks with regeneration enabling muta ling baneling play to be more viable. (it already was anyways, just better now).
Buffed ultralisks that can two shot marines and are an aggressive unit.
12 range infestor to support ultras.
A viper that shuts down defensive units allowing you to be aggressive where previously not possible with speed hydras.
Tier 1 burrow.
You did get some new aggressive things, if you choose not to use them that's on you and other Zergs. Life and the top tier Zergs already have started to use them.
As for the metagame, look forward in the next two weeks for oracle dice roll PvT to "evolve" if you can call it that into a match-up where every game is, "did he go oracle? did he build more than 1? or is he doing a different all-in? do i build turrets or no?"
TvZ will be more refined bio+mine play and mech + speed burrow will start cropping up very soon.
As for PvZ, Zergs probably will start using mass drop a lot more considering hydras are better in general.
And a sigh of relief to every Terran play on earth who thought that blizzard would make the mistake of nerfing Terran blindly again. Speed medivacs are already being dealt with quite well by SPEED MUTALISKS and stargate openings from Protoss.
And yes, i'm advocating everyone call them "speed mutalisks" because for some reason everyone is acting as if medivacs were the only unit that received a speed buff which is untrue.
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On March 19 2013 02:07 TAMinator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote:
yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well I agree. Imo the Nydus should pop out twice as fast. Would make for interesting games. Blizzard waiting it out is smart though, its a dumb idea to patch something after only 1 tournament
What about a nydus upgrade at hive tech that reduces worm tunnel time to like 10 seconds, and doubles unload rate?
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On March 19 2013 02:10 ymir233 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 01:32 hellokittySC2 wrote:
i don't know *fun to watch* for medivac speed is the correct correlation to balance. He didn't say medivac speed was fun to watch. He said agressive play is fun to watch, which is true. Agression is better than styles where people just try to get a single advantage and macro their way over their opponent. What's wrong with econ games...o____O? Aggression isn't always fun to watch.
True, but econ games are also not always fun to watch. And by the end of WOL we pretty much only had econ games (outside of the standard 'have to cheese once per series' games) as there was no real reason for any race to be aggressive early on. In HOTS, at the moment and mainly for terran and toss, the new aggressive options are nicely complementing strong macro play...and hence is creating exciting games to watch =).
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On March 19 2013 02:10 ymir233 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 01:32 hellokittySC2 wrote:
i don't know *fun to watch* for medivac speed is the correct correlation to balance. He didn't say medivac speed was fun to watch. He said agressive play is fun to watch, which is true. Agression is better than styles where people just try to get a single advantage and macro their way over their opponent. What's wrong with econ games...o____O? Aggression isn't always fun to watch.
Minerals being mined, minerals being mined, minerals being mined... those are never fun to watch.
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Austria24422 Posts
Very good response, my thoughts exactly. The only thing I would like them to make changes to is how PvP works if it doesn't get a little more figured out soon. That matchup is currently extremely random.
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United States7166 Posts
On March 19 2013 01:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote:
yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well I love the nydus, but it is a free doom drop if it is not spotted. If anything, they should limit the number of units that can be loaded into the nydus at a time and force the player to load and unload. This would require two screen multi tasking and put more of a delay on the nydus dumping out a full army. With that limitation, they could make it more awesome, harder to kill without the risk of it being game ending if it gets up.
i think the best way to change it though is to make nydus hive tech, but not easily deniable just cus you spotted it. Probably by reducing the build time and increase the hp both, and also allow the zerg to cancel building a worm too to get some (not all) money back and so they can start planting another one sooner.
then it also makes more sense for zerg's drop to be just a little better, overlords are kinda slow..maybe allow overseers to drop units, meaning if the zerg wants to have speedier dropships they spend more money and time making overlords into overseers.
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I agree with David Kim, obviously recent games have been great I hope he continues to push towards more aggressive play for all races. That also means nothing should be too strong defensively (I'm looking at you automatic siege upgrade for tanks...).
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On March 19 2013 02:10 ymir233 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 01:32 hellokittySC2 wrote:
i don't know *fun to watch* for medivac speed is the correct correlation to balance. He didn't say medivac speed was fun to watch. He said agressive play is fun to watch, which is true. Agression is better than styles where people just try to get a single advantage and macro their way over their opponent. What's wrong with econ games...o____O? Aggression isn't always fun to watch.
NR15 games are never fun to watch.
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They are taking the right approach. The MLG (and even stream games) of HotS are way better than the last 6 months of WoL. I do think medivacs will eventually have to be toned down a tad, but I'm honestly interested in seeing what pros come up with in the mean time.
People wanted longer games in earlier WoL and we got massive maps as a result. Blizzard is trying to fix this with more aggressive units, and they are simultaneous reducing the giant death ball fights that dominated WoL in the past year or so.
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EPT
