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March 18th 2013: David Kim's HotS Thoughts - Page 6

Forum Index > SC2 General
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LOveRH
Profile Joined March 2011
United States88 Posts
March 18 2013 18:02 GMT
#101
If they decrease medivac's health by 10-15 it would make such a big deal. I wish they would think about doing this. So many MLG games where the terran was forcing their opponent in their base with just medivacs. They always got away with like 4-8 hp. If a change like this was made, one or two of them died during the game(s), it might be the changed needed to help players not be overwhelmed by drops and make the medivacs a tiny bit less cost effective without completely breaking them.
MCDayC
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom14464 Posts
March 18 2013 18:03 GMT
#102
On March 19 2013 03:02 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 02:59 MCDayC wrote:
On March 19 2013 02:42 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Way to fix medivacs and still retain its purpose and aggressive use.

1. Remove cooldown with afterburners (so you can use it right after another one is finished)
2. When medivac is done you get three (3) times to use it.
3. Recharge costs of half your medivac energy to get 3 more.

Buff and nerf same time

or why not just link it to energy directly and play with the numbers instead of some weird system? make it like every other spell in the game ;P


Because this requires more clicking (which increases micromanagement+fail possibilities) plus you can escape with your medivac if feedbacked (if charges left) or used all for healing.

I fail to see how that is a problem.
VERY FRAGILE, LIKE A BABY PANDA EGG
dsjoerg
Profile Joined January 2012
United States384 Posts
March 18 2013 18:05 GMT
#103
On March 19 2013 01:38 LgNKami wrote:
I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction.


God bless you for saying what I didn't dare to. I love playing aggressively, and every time I succeeded with it on ladder I was accused of cheese, even when I scouted poor defense and then simply punished it.
card-carrying grubby fan. developer of GGTracker.
Too_MuchZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Finland2818 Posts
March 18 2013 18:07 GMT
#104
On March 19 2013 03:03 MCDayC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 03:02 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
On March 19 2013 02:59 MCDayC wrote:
On March 19 2013 02:42 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Way to fix medivacs and still retain its purpose and aggressive use.

1. Remove cooldown with afterburners (so you can use it right after another one is finished)
2. When medivac is done you get three (3) times to use it.
3. Recharge costs of half your medivac energy to get 3 more.

Buff and nerf same time

or why not just link it to energy directly and play with the numbers instead of some weird system? make it like every other spell in the game ;P


Because this requires more clicking (which increases micromanagement+fail possibilities) plus you can escape with your medivac if feedbacked (if charges left) or used all for healing.

I fail to see how that is a problem.


You don't want to counter afterburn that easily by just draining its mana out (then it loses its purpose and not impressive anymore). Three charges gives BW feeling like vultures did.
TeeTS
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany2762 Posts
March 18 2013 18:08 GMT
#105
On March 19 2013 03:02 LOveRH wrote:
If they decrease medivac's health by 10-15 it would make such a big deal. I wish they would think about doing this. So many MLG games where the terran was forcing their opponent in their base with just medivacs. They always got away with like 4-8 hp. If a change like this was made, one or two of them died during the game(s), it might be the changed needed to help players not be overwhelmed by drops and make the medivacs a tiny bit less cost effective without completely breaking them.

I don't think so, it only rarely happens that medivacs get close to dying right now.
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 18:13:59
March 18 2013 18:11 GMT
#106
On March 19 2013 03:07 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 03:03 MCDayC wrote:
On March 19 2013 03:02 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
On March 19 2013 02:59 MCDayC wrote:
On March 19 2013 02:42 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Way to fix medivacs and still retain its purpose and aggressive use.

1. Remove cooldown with afterburners (so you can use it right after another one is finished)
2. When medivac is done you get three (3) times to use it.
3. Recharge costs of half your medivac energy to get 3 more.

Buff and nerf same time

or why not just link it to energy directly and play with the numbers instead of some weird system? make it like every other spell in the game ;P


Because this requires more clicking (which increases micromanagement+fail possibilities) plus you can escape with your medivac if feedbacked (if charges left) or used all for healing.

I fail to see how that is a problem.


You don't want to counter afterburn that easily by just draining its mana out (then it loses its purpose and not impressive anymore). Three charges gives BW feeling like vultures did.

Why do you even feel there's a need to change things?

Balance should be based on the absolute top professionals, not on the average pro-ladder player, and from what we've seen at MLG Life/MC manage to deal with it fine (and he'll likely get better at it with more practice). Muta's seem perfectly capable of dealing with medivacs, they get a slight speed advantage during boost but are at a severe disadvantage afterwards, so overextending with medivacs/base drops are still risky.
vesicular
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1311 Posts
March 18 2013 18:12 GMT
#107
One thing they also got right, less deathballs. All the aggression really does cut down on it. I'm not sure I can go back to watching 12 min macro 200/200 into 1 battle deathballs ever again. Not that they were ever interesting, but thank god it's slowly going away.
STX Fighting!
Salient
Profile Joined August 2011
United States876 Posts
March 18 2013 18:12 GMT
#108
On March 19 2013 03:05 dsjoerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 01:38 LgNKami wrote:
I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction.


God bless you for saying what I didn't dare to. I love playing aggressively, and every time I succeeded with it on ladder I was accused of cheese, even when I scouted poor defense and then simply punished it.


It's easy for Terran players to say that at the moment. But imagine if Blizzard decided to give Colossi an ability to move twice as quickly because that would be "exciting" to watch. Protoss would open fast collasi and run up and cliffs at breakneck special speeds. Terrans would complain, and some trollish Toss players would tell them to adapt by scouting and opening with vikings.
Nekemancer
Profile Joined September 2010
United States73 Posts
March 18 2013 18:14 GMT
#109
I saw someone suggest that Medivacs could take bonus damage (+10%? 50%? 100%? Numbers to play with) while boosting, so it's a riskier move to drop over/past defenses or in battles, but could still be done. If I had to make a choice on a medivac change, that'd be the one I'd look into.

However, like several people have said, it's good that they'll wait a bit to see where HotS goes. Current concerns might be jokes in a few months, depending on where the game goes. And I'm looking forward to seeing that.
Pretend this quote is meaningful or humorous.
Lorch
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany3711 Posts
March 18 2013 18:15 GMT
#110
On March 19 2013 03:12 Salient wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 03:05 dsjoerg wrote:
On March 19 2013 01:38 LgNKami wrote:
I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction.


God bless you for saying what I didn't dare to. I love playing aggressively, and every time I succeeded with it on ladder I was accused of cheese, even when I scouted poor defense and then simply punished it.


It's easy for Terran players to say that at the moment. But imagine if Blizzard decided to give Colossi an ability to move twice as quickly because that would be "exciting" to watch. Protoss would open fast collasi and run up and cliffs at breakneck special speeds. Terrans would complain, and some trollish Toss players would tell them to adapt by scouting and opening with vikings.


What kind of messed up comparison is that?
Speedmedivacs are obviously fine, mc crushed drop play, so it's not imbalance, it's as he said, most of us are s till playing wol and try to deal with drops as you would in wol, which is obviously not working out, they are just a new tool to punish bad players even more, which is obviously working out greatly given all the bad players complaining. Just because you keep dieing to it in your shitty masters division doesn't mean it's imba, chances are it means you suck.
Tobblish
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden6404 Posts
March 18 2013 18:15 GMT
#111
Thankfully they are having the laid back approach like we wished for.
Swinging the nerfbat after two weeks is stupid.

Can't wait for what the more innovating players will come up with.
The curse is real
TeeTS
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany2762 Posts
March 18 2013 18:18 GMT
#112
On March 19 2013 03:15 Tobblish wrote:
Thankfully they are having the laid back approach like we wished for.
Swinging the nerfbat after two weeks is stupid.

Can't wait for what the more innovating players will come up with.

yeahyeah, we're in less than one week after release (in europe at least). There is no reason to overreact, but I don't see a lot of answers for speedivacs other than all-ins before they're out. D:
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
March 18 2013 18:20 GMT
#113
On March 19 2013 02:23 Zelniq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 01:52 Plansix wrote:
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote:
yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack

that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.

i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well


I love the nydus, but it is a free doom drop if it is not spotted. If anything, they should limit the number of units that can be loaded into the nydus at a time and force the player to load and unload. This would require two screen multi tasking and put more of a delay on the nydus dumping out a full army. With that limitation, they could make it more awesome, harder to kill without the risk of it being game ending if it gets up.


i think the best way to change it though is to make nydus hive tech, but not easily deniable just cus you spotted it. Probably by reducing the build time and increase the hp both, and also allow the zerg to cancel building a worm too to get some (not all) money back and so they can start planting another one sooner.

then it also makes more sense for zerg's drop to be just a little better, overlords are kinda slow..maybe allow overseers to drop units, meaning if the zerg wants to have speedier dropships they spend more money and time making overlords into overseers.

I read the following suggestion on reddit: allow nydus worms to benefit from ground carapace, this way workers won't kill them anymore in late-game. It's a very non-intrusive change, but with potentially good long-term effects.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Tobblish
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden6404 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 18:21:26
March 18 2013 18:20 GMT
#114
On March 19 2013 03:18 TeeTS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 03:15 Tobblish wrote:
Thankfully they are having the laid back approach like we wished for.
Swinging the nerfbat after two weeks is stupid.

Can't wait for what the more innovating players will come up with.

yeahyeah, we're in less than one week after release (in europe at least). There is no reason to overreact, but I don't see a lot of answers for speedivacs other than all-ins before they're out. D:


Life showed that aggression with mutas was successful.
MC showed a true Hots build order, Rain them off with his micro and positioning.

I think the answers are already here.
If people want to play WoL and throw in the towel thats fine by me.
The curse is real
Salient
Profile Joined August 2011
United States876 Posts
March 18 2013 18:22 GMT
#115
On March 19 2013 03:15 Lorch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 03:12 Salient wrote:
On March 19 2013 03:05 dsjoerg wrote:
On March 19 2013 01:38 LgNKami wrote:
I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction.


God bless you for saying what I didn't dare to. I love playing aggressively, and every time I succeeded with it on ladder I was accused of cheese, even when I scouted poor defense and then simply punished it.


It's easy for Terran players to say that at the moment. But imagine if Blizzard decided to give Colossi an ability to move twice as quickly because that would be "exciting" to watch. Protoss would open fast collasi and run up and cliffs at breakneck special speeds. Terrans would complain, and some trollish Toss players would tell them to adapt by scouting and opening with vikings.


What kind of messed up comparison is that?
Speedmedivacs are obviously fine, mc crushed drop play, so it's not imbalance, it's as he said, most of us are s till playing wol and try to deal with drops as you would in wol, which is obviously not working out, they are just a new tool to punish bad players even more, which is obviously working out greatly given all the bad players complaining. Just because you keep dieing to it in your shitty masters division doesn't mean it's imba, chances are it means you suck.


PartinG, Rain, and Creator were pwnd by the new medevacs. MC did better with all ins. All ins and timing attacks are a way of avoiding the problem, not a long term solution.
Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
March 18 2013 18:23 GMT
#116
On March 19 2013 02:56 Lorch wrote:
Just add scorges, they would fix zerg problems in every matchup:

vs Terran: Even though speed medivacs aren't the main concern of zvt atm, it's still a fact that even if you go muta you get to shoot them a few times and then they just boost away, thus while you can deflect drops you can't punish terran, with scorges if you c onnect once you should be able to kill the medivac. Plus it would make all the boosting away in your medivacs after taking a bad engagement a lot harder to do.

vs Protoss: Corrupters are trash vs void rays and hydras get stormed away, we saw at iem that void rays clump like fuck so fungal is a good tool (though feedback can deal with that as well), I feel like fungal + scourge should give zerg a fair chance vs air toss. Should also help a lot with speed prisms, and make muta vs phoenix a lot more dynamic then range phoenix killing all the mutas while corrupters are too slow to catch up.

vs Zerg: Right now muta vs muta in zvz is who has more, sometimes there is an upgrade timing, sometimes having your lings soak up some bounces helps, scourge would obviously make the matchup way way more interesting, and I feel like fungal + scourge would open up non-muta based armies too.

Obviously you can't just add supply free cheap as fuck bw scourges into a game with larva inject, but I feel like if tweaked right they would help out zerg a lot atm. Sadly blizzard will never add a unit via patch so we'll have to wait till legacy of the void...

Other than that, good to hear that they are actually smart and wait now, I feel like a lot of earlier star 2 patches were made without much thought and giving the game time to balance out, I really thought we'd see a medivac nerf this/next week, but I'm super happy they chill and wait.

It's annoying since they talked about removing the corrupter earlier since it was boring yet its still the same boring unit and zerg got zero new anti air.
mechengineer123
Profile Joined March 2013
Ukraine711 Posts
March 18 2013 18:26 GMT
#117
Good statement from DK. These MLG games were some of the best sc2 I've ever seen and it was clearly because of all the newfound aggression/action, which is caused by the new medivacs.

I just wish they would just add lurkers and/or impalers to mp, those felt so cool in the campaign and are definitely more enjoyable to watch and use than swarm hosts. (And I never played bw, so this isn't some elitist thing.) But I guess there's no realistic chance of that happening.
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
March 18 2013 18:27 GMT
#118
On March 19 2013 03:20 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 02:23 Zelniq wrote:
On March 19 2013 01:52 Plansix wrote:
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote:
yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack

that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.

i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well


I love the nydus, but it is a free doom drop if it is not spotted. If anything, they should limit the number of units that can be loaded into the nydus at a time and force the player to load and unload. This would require two screen multi tasking and put more of a delay on the nydus dumping out a full army. With that limitation, they could make it more awesome, harder to kill without the risk of it being game ending if it gets up.


i think the best way to change it though is to make nydus hive tech, but not easily deniable just cus you spotted it. Probably by reducing the build time and increase the hp both, and also allow the zerg to cancel building a worm too to get some (not all) money back and so they can start planting another one sooner.

then it also makes more sense for zerg's drop to be just a little better, overlords are kinda slow..maybe allow overseers to drop units, meaning if the zerg wants to have speedier dropships they spend more money and time making overlords into overseers.

I read the following suggestion on reddit: allow nydus worms to benefit from ground carapace, this way workers won't kill them anymore in late-game. It's a very non-intrusive change, but with potentially good long-term effects.

yeah that one is totally reasonable. i also liked one i saw on bnet, suggesting that they can only be built on creep (but with overlord creep spread it's not unreasonable), and then it's reasonable to do things like buff their HP, reduce build time, allow Cancel, etc
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
Taefox
Profile Joined March 2010
1533 Posts
March 18 2013 18:27 GMT
#119
On March 19 2013 03:22 Salient wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 03:15 Lorch wrote:
On March 19 2013 03:12 Salient wrote:
On March 19 2013 03:05 dsjoerg wrote:
On March 19 2013 01:38 LgNKami wrote:
I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction.


God bless you for saying what I didn't dare to. I love playing aggressively, and every time I succeeded with it on ladder I was accused of cheese, even when I scouted poor defense and then simply punished it.


It's easy for Terran players to say that at the moment. But imagine if Blizzard decided to give Colossi an ability to move twice as quickly because that would be "exciting" to watch. Protoss would open fast collasi and run up and cliffs at breakneck special speeds. Terrans would complain, and some trollish Toss players would tell them to adapt by scouting and opening with vikings.


What kind of messed up comparison is that?
Speedmedivacs are obviously fine, mc crushed drop play, so it's not imbalance, it's as he said, most of us are s till playing wol and try to deal with drops as you would in wol, which is obviously not working out, they are just a new tool to punish bad players even more, which is obviously working out greatly given all the bad players complaining. Just because you keep dieing to it in your shitty masters division doesn't mean it's imba, chances are it means you suck.


PartinG, Rain, and Creator were pwnd by the new medevacs. MC did better with all ins. All ins and timing attacks are a way of avoiding the problem, not a long term solution.

Creator lost his game 1 not because of medivac fyi
@taefoxy
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
March 18 2013 18:31 GMT
#120
It's sad that zerg early game remains untouched compared to Wol. Best case scenario what blizzard will make is balance some imba units...
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
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