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On March 19 2013 01:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote:
yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well I love the nydus, but it is a free doom drop if it is not spotted. If anything, they should limit the number of units that can be loaded into the nydus at a time and force the player to load and unload. This would require two screen multi tasking and put more of a delay on the nydus dumping out a full army. With that limitation, they could make it more awesome, harder to kill without the risk of it being game ending if it gets up.
The problem I have with this argument is that medivacs are useful for multiple reasons, including harass, healing, and doom dropping. Nydus worms are only useful as a doom drop, and one that will be lost if your opponent defends the attack at all. I think the option to use a nydus worm for mining purposes should be made easier for the Zerg, personally. It's an expensive building that provides no production, and would give us another reason to use it.
It simply needs either another or less gimmicky use to be worthwhile. I think that making it harder to spot or easier to put down would be overpowered and would not help anyone but the zerg.
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2943 Posts
I am begging them to NOT NERF ANYTHING but to make other races have BETTER shit. That way it's not a fucking homogeneous boring mess like WoL was.
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I do think they could make some more minor tweaks to units that are not useful. I think swarm hosts are a good idea and zerg players clearly want more options I mean leenock tried to use them and so did life but we saw why they are not that good. They need to send out weaker/faster units more often so they can be moved around more often and show us more interesting micro. Right now they just are not strong enough for what they do even in large numbers.
In the leenock game the other guy just moved around them and leenock has all his money tied up in those silly things. Unlike lurkers a few swarm hosts pose nearly no threat so you cant spread them out for space control like they clearly intended.
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Just wanted to let you know that our design team is watching every major match carefully and will continue doing so.
Some things we're noticing are:
- The super aggressive play is turning out to be really fun to watch.
- Nobody is close to figuring the game out yet.
- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority.
- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them.
Some things we're thinking of going forward:
- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
- We'll continue watching all the pro and community concerns, but keep in mind we'd really like the game to settle before we step in and make a move.
I don't know what to say, Blizzard seems so ignorant. Of course aggressive play is fun to watch. The game is at it's best when a macro player has an equal chance against someone with a very well planned and executed all-in timing. Then it all comes down to scouting, micro, mindgames, ect... and of course don't forget maps.
At the start of WOL timing players dominated, and the game was boring because it was Marine-SCV all-in after Marine-SCV all-in. At the end of WOL it was boring because it was a turtlefest dominated by macro players, the first 10 minutes were literally a waste of time, and every game played out with the same basic compositions. Variety is what makes the game fun.
Blizzard needs to hit that balance. And while I hate to be the pessimist here, the awesome HOTS games we are watching are because the game hasn't been figured out. People wanted to play macro like in Wings, but timings were really strong, so we got variety, and it was fun! However, Photon Overcharge and Widow Mines threaten to make the game even more of a turtlefest than WOL is when the game is figured out. Note how Terran can't do any old Rax timings with Photon Overcharge. Look at how passive Protoss has to be in the mid game versus Terran due to Widow Mines and Speedvacs.
I'm calling it right now, once Protoss players learn to defend the mid-game pressure (or it gets nerfed if it can't be defended) then the game will be an epic turtlefest till lategame in PvT, and we'll be in an even worse position in PvT then we were at end of the WOL.
Hopefully Blizzard will head that off at the pass.
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On March 19 2013 03:38 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 03:31 Lorch wrote:On March 19 2013 03:22 Salient wrote:On March 19 2013 03:15 Lorch wrote:On March 19 2013 03:12 Salient wrote:On March 19 2013 03:05 dsjoerg wrote:On March 19 2013 01:38 LgNKami wrote:
I think the only people that complain are the people who are too lazy to adapt on ladder. For some reason, ladder has turned into a macrofest where if you're aggressive, you're cheesy. I'm glad to see that shit is starting to change. I feel that the way the game is going right now is in the right direction. God bless you for saying what I didn't dare to. I love playing aggressively, and every time I succeeded with it on ladder I was accused of cheese, even when I scouted poor defense and then simply punished it. It's easy for Terran players to say that at the moment. But imagine if Blizzard decided to give Colossi an ability to move twice as quickly because that would be "exciting" to watch. Protoss would open fast collasi and run up and cliffs at breakneck special speeds. Terrans would complain, and some trollish Toss players would tell them to adapt by scouting and opening with vikings. What kind of messed up comparison is that? Speedmedivacs are obviously fine, mc crushed drop play, so it's not imbalance, it's as he said, most of us are s till playing wol and try to deal with drops as you would in wol, which is obviously not working out, they are just a new tool to punish bad players even more, which is obviously working out greatly given all the bad players complaining. Just because you keep dieing to it in your shitty masters division doesn't mean it's imba, chances are it means you suck. PartinG, Rain, and Creator were pwnd by the new medevacs. MC did better with all ins. All ins and timing attacks are a way of avoiding the problem, not a long term solution. I'm not talking about his oracle/stalker allins. I'm talking about getting 5-6 phoenix to just shut down drop play, every game he went makro + phoenix he didn't loose anything to drops. Parting, Rain (I won't even name creator since I hate that kid so much) are all insanely good players, but none of them tried anything besides blinkers + feedback vs drops, which is obviously not a solution to the after burners. Also parting loosing to flash had very little to do with speed medivacs, and him writing imba imba at the end just shows how immature his approach to finding a solution is anyways. Plus you could also argue that due to proleague rain wasn't even able to play much hots before mlg, so no wonder he looses to something new. I wonder what Creator did to you, that you hate him that much. ontopic: getting 5-6 phoenix sounds good first, but the dps is way too low to kill medivacs before they got to drop out their load. And after investing that heavily into them, you may not have enough to deal with the marines. I haven't seen it being tested, but that are concerns I would have with this strategy. If you have good experiences with that strategy, then others should give it a try too.
the biggest problem is upgrades, after investing so much into phoenix and the needed splash, there is not enough gas to upgrade, that is probably why MC went for the 2 base all ins after the phoenix, he knows that behind in upgrades he can't trade equally with terran, and it would just get out of control as the game goes on...
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Well we all know if each race win rate comes out to 50ish percent for all the different groups of players then Blizzard says the game is balanced.
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Good. Glad to see they aren't trying to upend the whole meta before it even begins
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I guess I agree. MLG games were quite good. They could balance the game today, but we can wait and see better how much nerfs will be needed. But I wish they would buff hydra and nydus right away, because those changes should be harsh and it will take some time to polish. On other side nerf to widow mine/voidray/medivac will be probably one and final.
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Really glad they're not rushing any changes. I just hope they don't fall into the trap of driving players and spectators away with Terran dominance again like in WoL before the game really evolved into something more entertaining. HotS is a much more entertaining game already so I hope the player base lasts longer this time.
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Only changes i would like to see are :-
1/Return of Khaydarin amulet
2/ Buff Hydra
rest can stay the same
ohh and turn Swarm Hosts into Lurkers !!!
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Wow, for what might be the first time ever, I 100% agree with everything in this statement.
I'm glad Blizz is listening to the calm, intelligent side of the community instead of the whiners for once. Or maybe they came to this conclusion wholly themselves. Either way, big win for SC as a whole.
I especially agree with Blizz's comment that though some players are struggling with new strats, there are others who have taken the changes in stride and are responding successfully. Clearly this is just a matter of time with the better players adapting faster which is exactly what one would expect.
This adapt-not-complain approach is so reminiscent of BW days, and I hope to see more :D Granted there was always whine, but nothing along the lines of what we see now. Not to mention TvT had a distinct BW-esque feel to it as well. We're on the right path!
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After having been able to watch some of the MLG this past weekened I totally agree with what DK is saying. The game is so volatile right now, new strats coming left and right and the game is still just a giant puzzle waiting to be solved.
Are medivacs OP? I`d be inclined to say yes but I have to say; during MLG, whenever terran had medivacs on the field I was tense because these medivacs drops are legitimately scary now and as the players danced back and forth there were "ohhh`s" and "ahhhs" while drops were attempted and deflected until all the adrenaline was released as multi-pronged drops kicked it, very entertaining to watch.
The game has gone agressive, constant back and forth action as players trade, exchange advantages and run eachother into the ground. i found watching Starcraft to be enternaing again as this past weekened has kept me on the edge of my seat for the games that I managed to watch. I hope Blizzard keeps their word and only intervenes when there is a real problem that needs immediate attention.
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On March 19 2013 04:13 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:52 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote:
yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack
that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.
i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well I love the nydus, but it is a free doom drop if it is not spotted. If anything, they should limit the number of units that can be loaded into the nydus at a time and force the player to load and unload. This would require two screen multi tasking and put more of a delay on the nydus dumping out a full army. With that limitation, they could make it more awesome, harder to kill without the risk of it being game ending if it gets up. The problem I have with this argument is that medivacs are useful for multiple reasons, including harass, healing, and doom dropping. Nydus worms are only useful as a doom drop, and one that will be lost if your opponent defends the attack at all. I think the option to use a nydus worm for mining purposes should be made easier for the Zerg, personally. It's an expensive building that provides no production, and would give us another reason to use it. It simply needs either another or less gimmicky use to be worthwhile. I think that making it harder to spot or easier to put down would be overpowered and would not help anyone but the zerg.
nydus is ridiculously OP in PvZ if not spotted in time. I don't agree with buffing it more at all. On some big map with long distance between main and third base, Zerg can abuse it easy enough already. Zergs don't use nydus much cause beside hydras, most of their ground units are fast enough.
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I'm a terran player, but I'm just thinking aboout why overseers can't get drop by defult and skip the drop upgrade all together. I think this would allow zerg to get some mid game aggression without getting too op, since to overseers still cost gas.
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On March 19 2013 04:28 Topdoller wrote:
Only changes i would like to see are :-
1/Return of Khaydarin amulet
2/ Buff Hydra
rest can stay the same
ohh and turn Swarm Hosts into Lurkers !!!
With the skill protoss has now, khaydarian amulet would be stupidly op
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Good to read that kind of statement. It would be a huge mistake to continue to nerf everything into the ground, as they did in WoL. But it seems like they learned from that and are willing to wait it out. And if something turns out to be too strong on a constant level, I hope they react by providing options against that instead of nerfing it.
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I agree witht the OP that if they nerf voidrays of buff corrupters then the game would look pretty good.
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On March 19 2013 04:28 Topdoller wrote:
Only changes i would like to see are :-
1/Return of Khaydarin amulet
2/ Buff Hydra
rest can stay the same
ohh and turn Swarm Hosts into Lurkers !!!
HTs arguably one of the best units in game right now lol...
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I 100% agree with waiting it out. But let's not kid ourselves and say that medivac boosts "look fine" now lol MC only crushed them because he constantly blind countered them with SG openings every game, and innovation clearly exposed that in their 3/4 series. The mobility of terran is too great right now when you understand the cost/effectiveness of their stimmed bio army, especially in the small skirmishes drop play helps create. They are not fine as of now, but let's wait and find out in the future.
I'd much rather get buffs elsewhere than to nerf them though, that's for damn sure. They are exciting to watch.
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On March 19 2013 04:13 Mortal wrote:
I am begging them to NOT NERF ANYTHING but to make other races have BETTER shit. That way it's not a fucking homogeneous boring mess like WoL was.
Same.
I agree with other people here that Nydus Worm should get some small buff, perhaps a shorter time to build or a lower cost.
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EPT
