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March 18th 2013: David Kim's HotS Thoughts - Page 9

Forum Index > SC2 General
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OrchidThief
Profile Joined April 2011
Denmark2298 Posts
March 18 2013 20:08 GMT
#161
On March 19 2013 05:01 Zorgaz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 04:13 Mortal wrote:
I am begging them to NOT NERF ANYTHING but to make other races have BETTER shit. That way it's not a fucking homogeneous boring mess like WoL was.


Same.

I agree with other people here that Nydus Worm should get some small buff, perhaps a shorter time to build or a lower cost.


WoL became boring because zergs couldn't really be aggressive early on besides from all in busts, thus it all degraded into a turtle fest and broodlords. Had nothing to do with nerfs or buffs.
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
March 18 2013 20:16 GMT
#162
On March 19 2013 05:08 OrchidThief wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 05:01 Zorgaz wrote:
On March 19 2013 04:13 Mortal wrote:
I am begging them to NOT NERF ANYTHING but to make other races have BETTER shit. That way it's not a fucking homogeneous boring mess like WoL was.


Same.

I agree with other people here that Nydus Worm should get some small buff, perhaps a shorter time to build or a lower cost.


WoL became boring because zergs couldn't really be aggressive early on besides from all in busts, thus it all degraded into a turtle fest and broodlords. Had nothing to do with nerfs or buffs.


And now it's even harder to be aggressive cause of mines/siege mode/mothership core. Zerg in return got nothing until 10 minutes into the game.
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
March 18 2013 20:16 GMT
#163
On March 19 2013 05:08 OrchidThief wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 05:01 Zorgaz wrote:
On March 19 2013 04:13 Mortal wrote:
I am begging them to NOT NERF ANYTHING but to make other races have BETTER shit. That way it's not a fucking homogeneous boring mess like WoL was.


Same.

I agree with other people here that Nydus Worm should get some small buff, perhaps a shorter time to build or a lower cost.


WoL became boring because zergs couldn't really be aggressive early on besides from all in busts, thus it all degraded into a turtle fest and broodlords. Had nothing to do with nerfs or buffs.


It had to do with the queen buff. Everyone knows this. Pre-queen patch TvZ was the best and most high paced match-up.
Sup
blackone
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany1314 Posts
March 18 2013 20:23 GMT
#164
On March 19 2013 04:28 Topdoller wrote:
Only changes i would like to see are :-

1/Return of Khaydarin amulet

2/ Buff Hydra

rest can stay the same

ohh and turn Swarm Hosts into Lurkers !!!

Khaydarin Amulet? You mean warp-in storms? No way.
Barbiero
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Brazil5259 Posts
March 18 2013 20:27 GMT
#165
On March 19 2013 05:16 ALPINA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 05:08 OrchidThief wrote:
On March 19 2013 05:01 Zorgaz wrote:
On March 19 2013 04:13 Mortal wrote:
I am begging them to NOT NERF ANYTHING but to make other races have BETTER shit. That way it's not a fucking homogeneous boring mess like WoL was.


Same.

I agree with other people here that Nydus Worm should get some small buff, perhaps a shorter time to build or a lower cost.


WoL became boring because zergs couldn't really be aggressive early on besides from all in busts, thus it all degraded into a turtle fest and broodlords. Had nothing to do with nerfs or buffs.


And now it's even harder to be aggressive cause of mines/siege mode/mothership core. Zerg in return got nothing until 10 minutes into the game.


On the other hand, we got SH's and buffed mutas post 10min. Life also showed us how strong a 3base baneling attack is versus mine-dependant terrans. Speed hydras also allows some neat timings vs toss.
♥ The world needs more hearts! ♥
Antpile
Profile Joined March 2009
United States213 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 20:39:41
March 18 2013 20:29 GMT
#166
I think an interesting change could be to make nydus worms invulnerable while building/still underground. Hear me out before you call it completely insane, because if I had suggested a year ago that medivacs should get a really low cooldown ability that made them book around the map at light speed it would have sounded crazy as well.

If the nydus worm was invulnerable while building, it would basically simulate the same effect you have now of when you spot a drop incoming except that zerg doesn't have the ability to just abort when he realizes he's been spotted and the defending player would know exactly when and where the 'drop' was going to occur.

So let's paint a picture. We're watching MLG, and Life decides to do some nydus worm magic to his Terran opponent. He spends the resources to start the nydus worm building in his opponents base, but because his opponent has put supply depots near the cliffs he sees it building. Now, remember boys and girls that one of the big downsides to nydus worms is how slowly stuff piles out of it. This isn't like dropships where you have your entire army on the ground in just a couple of seconds due to each dropship unloading simultaneously. This means the defender doesn't need to send his entire army to that point, he just needs enough that it would be foolish for the zerg to try to pile out of the nydus single file into a perfectly concaved enemy force. Plus, the life expectancy of the nydus worm itself with units nearby is quite low.

So in this example, Life's terran opponent sends a middling force of 12 marines, 4 marauders, and 2 medivacs to the incoming worm location. Problem solved. Short of it being late game and ultralisks piling out of that thing, it is unlikely anything coming out of the worm single file will pose any threat here. Also, he could stim and end the nydus worms life in roughly 1.2 seconds, meaning a couple of zerg units manage to get out at most. In essence, the worm is just a zergy form of dropping that is different enough to make it interesting. If you plop it down somewhere he hasn't placed structure within his main, it is his own fault just as much as if the zerg didn't have overlords out to spot a medivac drop incoming. If the zerg lures the terrans main army away from his base and then drops it somewhere the Terran can't possibly get to in time with combat units, then it is once again the same thing we see happening now, except that zerg units are no where near as cost effective and there would have to be more of them piled into the base.

This change would accomplish many things in a single stroke. First, we might actually see some nydus play happening. Secondly, Nydus worms could be used as a feint to draw some forces away from the main deathball in much the same way dropships do now because the opponent will no longer be able to shut the worm down with a just few workers. Finally, while it does give the zerg the ability to see if the drop is safe before ever putting units through it, it also a resource cost that the zerg can never get back that serves no other purpose (unlike medivacs.)

I know it sounds a little crazy, and perhaps it is; but once again, everyone would have said the same thing about medivacs with afterburners a year ago.

Edit/PS: I know some people will say, "But Antpile, the Zerg can pile their entire maxed supply army out of that thing!" While this is true, to that I reassert my earlier mention of just how long it would take to pile an entire zerg army out of a nydus worm. Also, in order for this to happen it would also mean all the normal things a doom drop entails such as leaving the doom dropper vulnerable to counterattack and/or a base race. A base race rarely ends in Zerg's favor.
Glorfindel!
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden1815 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 20:34:14
March 18 2013 20:33 GMT
#167
On March 19 2013 05:29 Antpile wrote:
I think an interesting change could be to make nydus worms invulnerable while building/still underground. Hear me out before you call it completely insane, because if I had suggested a year ago that medivacs should get a really low cooldown ability that made them book around the map at light speed it would have sounded crazy as well.

If the nydus worm was invulnerable while building, it would basically simulate the same effect you have now of when you spot a drop incoming except that zerg doesn't have the ability to just abort when he realizes he's been spotted and the defending player would know exactly when and where the 'drop' was going to occur.

So let's paint a picture. We're watching MLG, and Life decides to do some nydus worm magic to his Terran opponent. He spends the resources to start the nydus worm building in his opponents base, but because his opponent has put supply depots near the cliffs he sees it building. Now, remember boys and girls that one of the big downsides to nydus worms is how slowly stuff piles out of it. This isn't like dropships where you have your entire army on the ground in just a couple of seconds due to each dropship unloading simultaneously. This means the defender doesn't need to send his entire army to that point, he just needs enough that it would be foolish for the zerg to try to pile out of the nydus single file into a perfectly concaved enemy force. Plus, the life expectancy of the nydus worm itself with units nearby is quite low.

So in this example, Life's terran opponent sends a middling force of 12 marines, 4 marauders, and 2 medivacs to the incoming worm location. Problem solved. Short of it being late game and ultralisks piling out of that thing, it is unlikely anything coming out of the worm single file will pose any threat here. Also, he could stim and end the nydus worms life in roughly 1.2 seconds, meaning a couple of zerg units manage to get out at most. In essence, the worm is just a zergy form of dropping that is different enough to make it interesting. If you plop it down somewhere he hasn't placed structure within his main, it is his own fault just as much as if the zerg didn't have overlords out to spot a medivac drop incoming. If the zerg lures the terrans main army away from his base and then drops it somewhere the Terran can't possibly get to in time with combat units, then it is once again the same thing we see happening now, except that zerg units are no where near as cost effective and there would have to be more of them piled into the base.

This change would accomplish many things in a single stroke. First, we might actually see some nydus play happening. Secondly, Nydus worms could be used as a feint to draw some forces away from the main deathball in much the same way dropships do now because the opponent will no longer be able to shut the worm down with a just few workers. Finally, while it does give the zerg the ability to see if the drop is safe before ever putting units through it, it also a resource cost that the zerg can never get back that serves no other purpose (unlike medivacs.)

I know it sounds a little crazy, and perhaps it is; but once again, everyone would have said the same thing about medivacs with afterburners a year ago.


Not sure if stupid or just trolling... :D
You seriously cant be serious?! :D
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/598681/1/Glorfindel/ladder/161337#current-rank
vrok
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden2541 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 20:43:14
March 18 2013 20:36 GMT
#168
On March 19 2013 05:27 Zephirdd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 05:16 ALPINA wrote:
On March 19 2013 05:08 OrchidThief wrote:
On March 19 2013 05:01 Zorgaz wrote:
On March 19 2013 04:13 Mortal wrote:
I am begging them to NOT NERF ANYTHING but to make other races have BETTER shit. That way it's not a fucking homogeneous boring mess like WoL was.


Same.

I agree with other people here that Nydus Worm should get some small buff, perhaps a shorter time to build or a lower cost.


WoL became boring because zergs couldn't really be aggressive early on besides from all in busts, thus it all degraded into a turtle fest and broodlords. Had nothing to do with nerfs or buffs.


And now it's even harder to be aggressive cause of mines/siege mode/mothership core. Zerg in return got nothing until 10 minutes into the game.


On the other hand, we got SH's and buffed mutas post 10min. Life also showed us how strong a 3base baneling attack is versus mine-dependant terrans. Speed hydras also allows some neat timings vs toss.

SHs are useless vs bio which is the huge gaping hole in zerg matchups currently. The muta buff is only barely an answer to widow mines and speedvacs and it provides no options that didn't exist already. Mutas were better off overall in WoL than HotS vs terran. Zerg was the most incomplete race in WoL and they still are in HotS.
"Starcraft 2 very easy game" - White-Ra
Gentso
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2218 Posts
March 18 2013 20:39 GMT
#169
I'm glad Blizz is listening to the calm, intelligent side of the community instead of the whiners for once.


......why is this such a common belief here? Blizzard has been very calm and patient with their balance changes since release.
Valon
Profile Joined June 2011
United States329 Posts
March 18 2013 20:44 GMT
#170
Medivac speed boost needs to be an upgrade and requires like 25 energy to use. Hellbats need to not be bio, and widow mine splash needs to be reduced a bit. That and make zerg actually able to combat air toss/terran ie do something with corruptors.
TimENT
Profile Joined November 2012
United States1425 Posts
March 18 2013 20:44 GMT
#171
On March 19 2013 05:39 Gentso wrote:
Show nested quote +
I'm glad Blizz is listening to the calm, intelligent side of the community instead of the whiners for once.


......why is this such a common belief here? Blizzard has been very calm and patient with their balance changes since release.


They nerfed snipe(in TvZ) and thors(in TvP) after 1 tournament where it was first introduced.
Barcelona / Arsenal Fan!
Gentso
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2218 Posts
March 18 2013 20:49 GMT
#172
On March 19 2013 05:44 TimENT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 05:39 Gentso wrote:
I'm glad Blizz is listening to the calm, intelligent side of the community instead of the whiners for once.


......why is this such a common belief here? Blizzard has been very calm and patient with their balance changes since release.


They nerfed snipe(in TvZ) and thors(in TvP) after 1 tournament where it was first introduced.


If you can only name two incidents after three years then I think Blizz is doing a good job.
TigerKarl
Profile Joined November 2010
1757 Posts
March 18 2013 20:50 GMT
#173
I hope that they're not afraid to massively change boring units like void rays, corrupters. I had hoped that they'd remove and replace them completely, due to them not having a BroodWar background, but sadly that didn't happen, which will turn out to be a mistake.
Prog455
Profile Joined April 2012
Denmark970 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 20:53:56
March 18 2013 20:52 GMT
#174
On March 19 2013 04:02 striderxxx wrote:
I have no idea why nydus play isn't used more? This would seem to be an OP thing in the hands of a pro who can multitask like a boss.


Agreed. I would love to see a combo of Nydus and Swarm Hosts.

On March 19 2013 05:49 Gentso wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 05:44 TimENT wrote:
On March 19 2013 05:39 Gentso wrote:
I'm glad Blizz is listening to the calm, intelligent side of the community instead of the whiners for once.


......why is this such a common belief here? Blizzard has been very calm and patient with their balance changes since release.


They nerfed snipe(in TvZ) and thors(in TvP) after 1 tournament where it was first introduced.


If you can only name two incidents after three years then I think Blizz is doing a good job.


They nerfed Hellions after MLG Anaheim (i believe?) when Slayers owned everything with BFH. It was always Terrans who got hit by the nerf hammer.
papaz
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden4149 Posts
March 18 2013 20:53 GMT
#175
I like David Kim sharing his thought like this like he is just talking to a crowd and not doing a big announcement.

Also agree what he is saying. It's way too early to do anything about balance.
Solarist
Profile Joined September 2011
291 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 20:56:19
March 18 2013 20:53 GMT
#176
On March 19 2013 05:08 OrchidThief wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 05:01 Zorgaz wrote:
On March 19 2013 04:13 Mortal wrote:
I am begging them to NOT NERF ANYTHING but to make other races have BETTER shit. That way it's not a fucking homogeneous boring mess like WoL was.


Same.

I agree with other people here that Nydus Worm should get some small buff, perhaps a shorter time to build or a lower cost.


WoL became boring because zergs couldn't really be aggressive early on besides from all in busts, thus it all degraded into a turtle fest and broodlords. Had nothing to do with nerfs or buffs.

More like it became that because Zerg cried over pre 15 min aggression and got queendralisk to stop any early damage, coupled with the best and easiest to use lategame. So yeah it was due to nerfs to terran early game and massive buffs to zerg early game. Coupled with Maps getting huge, and every map maker thought that zerg should have a ledge so they can watch any army movement without activly scouting.
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
March 18 2013 20:54 GMT
#177
On March 19 2013 05:50 TigerKarl wrote:
I hope that they're not afraid to massively change boring units like void rays, corrupters. I had hoped that they'd remove and replace them completely, due to them not having a BroodWar background, but sadly that didn't happen, which will turn out to be a mistake.


Blizzard is clueless in that regard. They had all the time in the world to change corruptor but they didn't even touched it. I am not even talking about collossus - most boring unit in the game. Just replace it with reaver, adjust damage accordingly and game becomes so much more better.
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
kollin
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom8380 Posts
March 18 2013 20:56 GMT
#178
On March 19 2013 05:49 Gentso wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 05:44 TimENT wrote:
On March 19 2013 05:39 Gentso wrote:
I'm glad Blizz is listening to the calm, intelligent side of the community instead of the whiners for once.


......why is this such a common belief here? Blizzard has been very calm and patient with their balance changes since release.


They nerfed snipe(in TvZ) and thors(in TvP) after 1 tournament where it was first introduced.


If you can only name two incidents after three years then I think Blizz is doing a good job.

There was also blue flame hellions after one MLG. All of those changes severely altered the metagame, and who knows if it was for the right reasons.
TheDougler
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada8323 Posts
March 18 2013 20:57 GMT
#179
On March 19 2013 05:33 Glorfindel! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 05:29 Antpile wrote:
I think an interesting change could be to make nydus worms invulnerable while building/still underground. Hear me out before you call it completely insane, because if I had suggested a year ago that medivacs should get a really low cooldown ability that made them book around the map at light speed it would have sounded crazy as well.

If the nydus worm was invulnerable while building, it would basically simulate the same effect you have now of when you spot a drop incoming except that zerg doesn't have the ability to just abort when he realizes he's been spotted and the defending player would know exactly when and where the 'drop' was going to occur.

So let's paint a picture. We're watching MLG, and Life decides to do some nydus worm magic to his Terran opponent. He spends the resources to start the nydus worm building in his opponents base, but because his opponent has put supply depots near the cliffs he sees it building. Now, remember boys and girls that one of the big downsides to nydus worms is how slowly stuff piles out of it. This isn't like dropships where you have your entire army on the ground in just a couple of seconds due to each dropship unloading simultaneously. This means the defender doesn't need to send his entire army to that point, he just needs enough that it would be foolish for the zerg to try to pile out of the nydus single file into a perfectly concaved enemy force. Plus, the life expectancy of the nydus worm itself with units nearby is quite low.

So in this example, Life's terran opponent sends a middling force of 12 marines, 4 marauders, and 2 medivacs to the incoming worm location. Problem solved. Short of it being late game and ultralisks piling out of that thing, it is unlikely anything coming out of the worm single file will pose any threat here. Also, he could stim and end the nydus worms life in roughly 1.2 seconds, meaning a couple of zerg units manage to get out at most. In essence, the worm is just a zergy form of dropping that is different enough to make it interesting. If you plop it down somewhere he hasn't placed structure within his main, it is his own fault just as much as if the zerg didn't have overlords out to spot a medivac drop incoming. If the zerg lures the terrans main army away from his base and then drops it somewhere the Terran can't possibly get to in time with combat units, then it is once again the same thing we see happening now, except that zerg units are no where near as cost effective and there would have to be more of them piled into the base.

This change would accomplish many things in a single stroke. First, we might actually see some nydus play happening. Secondly, Nydus worms could be used as a feint to draw some forces away from the main deathball in much the same way dropships do now because the opponent will no longer be able to shut the worm down with a just few workers. Finally, while it does give the zerg the ability to see if the drop is safe before ever putting units through it, it also a resource cost that the zerg can never get back that serves no other purpose (unlike medivacs.)

I know it sounds a little crazy, and perhaps it is; but once again, everyone would have said the same thing about medivacs with afterburners a year ago.


Not sure if stupid or just trolling... :D
You seriously cant be serious?! :D


He's making a point of how insane he sees medivacs as being. I might not agree with him, but I see what he did there.
I root for Euro Zergs, NA Protoss* and Korean Terrans. (Any North American who has beat a Korean Pro as Protoss counts as NA Toss)
Brett
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Australia3823 Posts
March 18 2013 20:58 GMT
#180
On March 19 2013 02:19 avilo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 01:45 Zelniq wrote:
yeah.. well I really wish they'd take this "stronger, aggressive attack method potential = exciting/interesting" idea to zerg..they have this great idea of a building called nydus but unfortunately it's completely reliant on either the opponent not spotting it, or you putting it in a safe place (such as outside their base) that adds only a small amount of aggressive potential that essentially, from the defender's POV, is the same as defending any normal frontal attack

that and maybe zerg drops could use a little boost as well. all the same arguments that d.kim made there apply to these things really.

i'd advocate protoss buffs but they already got theirs in WoL, and have a lot of potential with speedy, more healthy warp prisms, and proxy pylons being a low cost/low tech way to be aggressive as well


Faster mutalisks with regeneration enabling muta ling baneling play to be more viable. (it already was anyways, just better now).
Buffed ultralisks that can two shot marines and are an aggressive unit.
12 range infestor to support ultras.
A viper that shuts down defensive units allowing you to be aggressive where previously not possible with speed hydras.
Tier 1 burrow.

You did get some new aggressive things, if you choose not to use them that's on you and other Zergs. Life and the top tier Zergs already have started to use them.

As for the metagame, look forward in the next two weeks for oracle dice roll PvT to "evolve" if you can call it that into a match-up where every game is, "did he go oracle? did he build more than 1? or is he doing a different all-in? do i build turrets or no?"

TvZ will be more refined bio+mine play and mech + speed burrow will start cropping up very soon.

As for PvZ, Zergs probably will start using mass drop a lot more considering hydras are better in general.

And a sigh of relief to every Terran play on earth who thought that blizzard would make the mistake of nerfing Terran blindly again. Speed medivacs are already being dealt with quite well by SPEED MUTALISKS and stargate openings from Protoss.

And yes, i'm advocating everyone call them "speed mutalisks" because for some reason everyone is acting as if medivacs were the only unit that received a speed buff which is untrue.

Ahhh, we can always rely on you, Avilo, can't we?

This is the right move from Blizzard. It's too soon to be making sweeping changes.
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