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On November 30 2012 21:30 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 21:24 Clow wrote:On November 30 2012 21:12 Patate wrote:On November 30 2012 19:11 Xpace wrote:
"Blizzard is killing e-Sports" - it's not funny or witty, it's actually quite depressing. Blizzard has no more control on the growth of E-Sports.. Riot does. Damn! Let's hope Riot allows Fighting Games and FPS Games to continue to exist, would be a shame if Riot decided to shut them down. --- On topic: Blizzard is trying out different things, it's really funny how people just RAGE at them whenever they test stuff out. Like they're balance experts who would obviously do a much better job than Blizzard. Just go test it and stop crying. You are missing the point. People criticize because Blizzard seems to be afraid to make appropriate changes. The problem is not the balance testing, everyone sane welcomes that, but it is obvious that they just want to make an impression of doing something to solve infestor problem rather than actually do changes that would have an impact on the game. They are afraid to touch infestors even on 1 balance test map, while in the past, they severely nerfed units in actual patches. They talk about watching the metagame carefully since May and queen buff, and every time they made some minor changes (like proposed creep nerf or raven speed or this changes) they find 2 IEM games with terrans using ravens as an excuse to do nothing.
They never even did a test map with the queen buff, they just randomly threw it out there without considering the impact. Their double standards are fucking ridiculous. They won't even acknowledge that the last 8 months have basically been Zergcraft 2.
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On November 30 2012 21:31 kaiser_byrnes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 21:06 Glon wrote:On November 30 2012 11:56 TheDwf wrote:On November 30 2012 11:52 Glon wrote:
I was addressing the ZvP matchup. If you want my opinions of ZvT -- Watch bogus or Ryung for inspiration. Someone doesn't watch IPL5. Realize that the GSL Ro4 players are there for the GSL. Sniper also fell out 0-2 to STC in R2 -- they prepped for GSL and will save strategies for GSL, not use them in the early rounds of IPL. People seem to be forgetting that your entire army should not be able to be fungaled. 1. You should be split 2. Collosus in front -- focussing infestor 3. SOME templar near front to storm eggs/brood lord and feedback infestor/queen 4. SPLIT ARC w/ Stalker 5. Mothership NEAR front so that the zerg cannot poke in with Brood lords w/ out fully committing with rest of army (for fear of getting double vortexed directly on the brood lords) As for attacking into zergs, protoss should not be doing that until they have their ultimate/unbeatable army of carrier/mothership/2 collosus/arcon/high templar. Rely on warp prisms to force zerg into attacking you -- then engage the zerg in the open if possible. ... Hope ^ helped. I can write a similar how-to engage for terran if people are interested. Maybe I'll even make a full guide, we'll see. So you say Protoss shouldn't attack until they have fulfilled their entire tech-tree? Sounds like a boring, 1-dimensional game. That's exactly the point people are trying to say here, infestors are bad for the game. Please don't write up you thoughts on ZvT.
Nope, that's a good game. When a big combat is avoidable through forcing small skirmishes we get more action and more depth. If a game devolves into "I built a deathball at home, now I'm gonna move it over to your base" - as PvZ is right now - that is when a game becomes boring. A game that is solely based upon timings, allins and big army battles is bad.
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IdrA had a good point earlier in this thread. When a Protoss Immortal/Sentry all-ins, he can just sit in the map, keep making immortals and continue to build up mana. Before, Zergs could get out infestors to fungal the sentries and win in a cost efficient trade. Now, nothing is stopping the protoss from just building up infinite forcefields to put our 200/200 roach/ling army in a force field donut.
IMO don't make Sentries and Motherships psionic.
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I'd like the see Fungal stay as it is wit hone change: It cannot kill but merely brought to 1hp and other units are required to kill the units. (WoL)
in HoTS I'd just add the projectile
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Blizzard has to stop just look their statistics and start thinking about what is important for a RTS :
-The Late Game has to be perfectly balance, with a late-composition for each race (not only MMMVG in TvP or MMMTV in TvZ)
-Early / Mid Game with strong timings for each race, in each MU.
Atm, early game is dead, and game is balanced between mid game push (Parting Push in PvZ) and late game with unbreakable deathball (BL / Infest).
It's not the good way to do, they have to understand it.
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On November 30 2012 21:31 kaiser_byrnes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 21:06 Glon wrote:On November 30 2012 11:56 TheDwf wrote:On November 30 2012 11:52 Glon wrote:
I was addressing the ZvP matchup. If you want my opinions of ZvT -- Watch bogus or Ryung for inspiration. Someone doesn't watch IPL5. Realize that the GSL Ro4 players are there for the GSL. Sniper also fell out 0-2 to STC in R2 -- they prepped for GSL and will save strategies for GSL, not use them in the early rounds of IPL. People seem to be forgetting that your entire army should not be able to be fungaled. 1. You should be split 2. Collosus in front -- focussing infestor 3. SOME templar near front to storm eggs/brood lord and feedback infestor/queen 4. SPLIT ARC w/ Stalker 5. Mothership NEAR front so that the zerg cannot poke in with Brood lords w/ out fully committing with rest of army (for fear of getting double vortexed directly on the brood lords) As for attacking into zergs, protoss should not be doing that until they have their ultimate/unbeatable army of carrier/mothership/2 collosus/arcon/high templar. Rely on warp prisms to force zerg into attacking you -- then engage the zerg in the open if possible. ... Hope ^ helped. I can write a similar how-to engage for terran if people are interested. Maybe I'll even make a full guide, we'll see. So you say Protoss shouldn't attack until they have fulfilled their entire tech-tree? Sounds like a boring, 1-dimensional game. That's exactly the point people are trying to say here, infestors are bad for the game. Please don't write up you thoughts on ZvT.
Everything vVvGlon wrote was correct, he was just explaining how to deal with PvZ late game. While I agree ZvP is sometimes (usually!) stale and boring as a turtle fest, it's not as imbalanced as people want to believe it is.
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blizzard will never balance WOL, because they want any competitive player switch to hots.
This is just like SC vanilla once again where zerg just owned everything, and apparently blizzard learned from it.
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On November 30 2012 21:39 Inquisitor1323 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 21:30 Qwerty85 wrote:On November 30 2012 21:24 Clow wrote:On November 30 2012 21:12 Patate wrote:On November 30 2012 19:11 Xpace wrote:
"Blizzard is killing e-Sports" - it's not funny or witty, it's actually quite depressing. Blizzard has no more control on the growth of E-Sports.. Riot does. Damn! Let's hope Riot allows Fighting Games and FPS Games to continue to exist, would be a shame if Riot decided to shut them down. --- On topic: Blizzard is trying out different things, it's really funny how people just RAGE at them whenever they test stuff out. Like they're balance experts who would obviously do a much better job than Blizzard. Just go test it and stop crying. You are missing the point. People criticize because Blizzard seems to be afraid to make appropriate changes. The problem is not the balance testing, everyone sane welcomes that, but it is obvious that they just want to make an impression of doing something to solve infestor problem rather than actually do changes that would have an impact on the game. They are afraid to touch infestors even on 1 balance test map, while in the past, they severely nerfed units in actual patches. They talk about watching the metagame carefully since May and queen buff, and every time they made some minor changes (like proposed creep nerf or raven speed or this changes) they find 2 IEM games with terrans using ravens as an excuse to do nothing. They never even did a test map with the queen buff, they just randomly threw it out there without considering the impact. Their double standards are fucking ridiculous. They won't even acknowledge that the last 8 months have basically been Zergcraft 2.
They did. They gave 5 days of testing before announcing the final patch. At least, that's what all these posts suggest.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5308170
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5393885
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"Global statistics don’t give us the impression that Zerg players have a general advantage, especially at the highest levels of play."
I'm just glad Blizzar is not making balance changes based on community whining but on actual statistics.
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On November 30 2012 21:47 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 21:39 Inquisitor1323 wrote:On November 30 2012 21:30 Qwerty85 wrote:On November 30 2012 21:24 Clow wrote:On November 30 2012 21:12 Patate wrote:On November 30 2012 19:11 Xpace wrote:
"Blizzard is killing e-Sports" - it's not funny or witty, it's actually quite depressing. Blizzard has no more control on the growth of E-Sports.. Riot does. Damn! Let's hope Riot allows Fighting Games and FPS Games to continue to exist, would be a shame if Riot decided to shut them down. --- On topic: Blizzard is trying out different things, it's really funny how people just RAGE at them whenever they test stuff out. Like they're balance experts who would obviously do a much better job than Blizzard. Just go test it and stop crying. You are missing the point. People criticize because Blizzard seems to be afraid to make appropriate changes. The problem is not the balance testing, everyone sane welcomes that, but it is obvious that they just want to make an impression of doing something to solve infestor problem rather than actually do changes that would have an impact on the game. They are afraid to touch infestors even on 1 balance test map, while in the past, they severely nerfed units in actual patches. They talk about watching the metagame carefully since May and queen buff, and every time they made some minor changes (like proposed creep nerf or raven speed or this changes) they find 2 IEM games with terrans using ravens as an excuse to do nothing. They never even did a test map with the queen buff, they just randomly threw it out there without considering the impact. Their double standards are fucking ridiculous. They won't even acknowledge that the last 8 months have basically been Zergcraft 2. They did. They gave 5 days of testing before announcing the final patch. At least, that's what all these posts suggest. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5308170http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5393885
Clearly that wasn't enough testing, as that patch fucked over Terrans for months.
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On November 30 2012 21:46 Venomsflame wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 21:31 kaiser_byrnes wrote:On November 30 2012 21:06 Glon wrote:On November 30 2012 11:56 TheDwf wrote:On November 30 2012 11:52 Glon wrote:
I was addressing the ZvP matchup. If you want my opinions of ZvT -- Watch bogus or Ryung for inspiration. Someone doesn't watch IPL5. Realize that the GSL Ro4 players are there for the GSL. Sniper also fell out 0-2 to STC in R2 -- they prepped for GSL and will save strategies for GSL, not use them in the early rounds of IPL. People seem to be forgetting that your entire army should not be able to be fungaled. 1. You should be split 2. Collosus in front -- focussing infestor 3. SOME templar near front to storm eggs/brood lord and feedback infestor/queen 4. SPLIT ARC w/ Stalker 5. Mothership NEAR front so that the zerg cannot poke in with Brood lords w/ out fully committing with rest of army (for fear of getting double vortexed directly on the brood lords) As for attacking into zergs, protoss should not be doing that until they have their ultimate/unbeatable army of carrier/mothership/2 collosus/arcon/high templar. Rely on warp prisms to force zerg into attacking you -- then engage the zerg in the open if possible. ... Hope ^ helped. I can write a similar how-to engage for terran if people are interested. Maybe I'll even make a full guide, we'll see. So you say Protoss shouldn't attack until they have fulfilled their entire tech-tree? Sounds like a boring, 1-dimensional game. That's exactly the point people are trying to say here, infestors are bad for the game. Please don't write up you thoughts on ZvT. Everything vVvGlon wrote was correct, he was just explaining how to deal with PvZ late game. While I agree ZvP is sometimes (usually!) stale and boring as a turtle fest, it's not as imbalanced as people want to believe it is.
How is Glon correct? He says you shouldnt attack into zerg until you got your unbeatable army but zerg often gets beaten by protoss with all-ins before they reach tier 3.
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On November 30 2012 21:44 FeyverN wrote:
IdrA had a good point earlier in this thread. When a Protoss Immortal/Sentry all-ins, he can just sit in the map, keep making immortals and continue to build up mana. Before, Zergs could get out infestors to fungal the sentries and win in a cost efficient trade. Now, nothing is stopping the protoss from just building up infinite forcefields to put our 200/200 roach/ling army in a force field donut.
IMO don't make Sentries and Motherships psionic.
brilliant idea , nerf fungal, but keep pvz balanced. i don't see how a robotic unit is considered psionic anyway.
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On November 30 2012 11:22 Maynarde wrote:
It's a TEST. Stop acting like these changes are final.
Yes ... its testing the patience of the community with that inept bunch of devs. IF they wanted to do real tests they should start with REAL changes like nerfing the range for Infestor abilities to 6-7 or increasing the range of the Seeker Missile trigger to 9 or lowering the energy required to 100 ... but not with this bunch of shit.
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Wtf? It's so easy to fix this. Just increase the energy needed for infested terrans. Tada, fixed!
On November 30 2012 21:49 Sbrubbles wrote:
"Global statistics don’t give us the impression that Zerg players have a general advantage, especially at the highest levels of play."
I'm just glad Blizzar is not making balance changes based on community whining but on actual statistics.
I wish this was the case with old colossi damage, HT amulet, blue flame hellions, etc.
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On November 30 2012 21:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 21:31 kaiser_byrnes wrote:On November 30 2012 21:06 Glon wrote:On November 30 2012 11:56 TheDwf wrote:On November 30 2012 11:52 Glon wrote:
I was addressing the ZvP matchup. If you want my opinions of ZvT -- Watch bogus or Ryung for inspiration. Someone doesn't watch IPL5. Realize that the GSL Ro4 players are there for the GSL. Sniper also fell out 0-2 to STC in R2 -- they prepped for GSL and will save strategies for GSL, not use them in the early rounds of IPL. People seem to be forgetting that your entire army should not be able to be fungaled. 1. You should be split 2. Collosus in front -- focussing infestor 3. SOME templar near front to storm eggs/brood lord and feedback infestor/queen 4. SPLIT ARC w/ Stalker 5. Mothership NEAR front so that the zerg cannot poke in with Brood lords w/ out fully committing with rest of army (for fear of getting double vortexed directly on the brood lords) As for attacking into zergs, protoss should not be doing that until they have their ultimate/unbeatable army of carrier/mothership/2 collosus/arcon/high templar. Rely on warp prisms to force zerg into attacking you -- then engage the zerg in the open if possible. ... Hope ^ helped. I can write a similar how-to engage for terran if people are interested. Maybe I'll even make a full guide, we'll see. So you say Protoss shouldn't attack until they have fulfilled their entire tech-tree? Sounds like a boring, 1-dimensional game. That's exactly the point people are trying to say here, infestors are bad for the game. Please don't write up you thoughts on ZvT. Nope, that's a good game. When a big combat is avoidable through forcing small skirmishes we get more action and more depth. If a game devolves into "I built a deathball at home, now I'm gonna move it over to your base" - as PvZ is right now - that is when a game becomes boring. A game that is solely based upon timings, allins and big army battles is bad.
Did you even read what Glon had written? He is suggesting that Protoss stay home and not attack at all until they have an end-game deathball. That is what you have defined as a boring game.
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On November 30 2012 21:58 kaiser_byrnes wrote:
Did you even read what Glon had written? He is suggesting that Protoss stay home and not attack at all until they have an end-game deathball. That is what you have defined as a boring game.
I have an idea for blizzard: remove fungal and protoss from the game. wala! perfect balance
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Blizzard has to stop listening to whiners. The game is pretty much balanced else there wouldnt be that high competition. They have to add features not balance shit.
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On November 30 2012 21:57 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 11:22 Maynarde wrote:
It's a TEST. Stop acting like these changes are final. Yes ... its testing the patience of the community with that inept bunch of devs. IF they wanted to do real tests they should start with REAL changes like nerfing the range for Infestor abilities to 6-7 or increasing the range of the Seeker Missile trigger to 9 or lowering the energy required to 100 ... but not with this bunch of shit.
I really like the idea of reducing the range of fungal to 6 or 7, but I don't think that's going to pass.
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On November 30 2012 21:38 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 21:08 Big J wrote:On November 30 2012 20:00 aksfjh wrote:On November 30 2012 19:47 Assirra wrote:On November 30 2012 18:48 dde wrote:On November 30 2012 11:29 SuperYo1000 wrote:
Global statistics don’t give us the impression that Zerg players have a general advantage, especially at the highest levels of play
In what universe are they getting there info from? At first I thought I must be taking crazy pills....Turns out...blizzard is sucking these down like candy when terrans were doing well, they nerfed terran and said they cared balance for the lower tier users. This time they decide not to touch zerg and they say they care for the top tiers and they dont wanna touch as much because they "believe" the game is balanced for the top tier users. what a joke. When terrrans were doing well it wasn't just low tier users tough. Need to remind you how GOM was called GOMTVT and how there were no less then 20 terrans in the round of 32? Even now zerg doesn't have close to that number. And yet, Terran Code S winrates at the time weren't as lopsided as Zergs are right now. The "GOMTvT" seems to be a statistical anomaly when you actually look at the game around then. The best explanation is that PvZ and PvT were bad for Protoss at the time, and since Zerg had a low representation, Terrans were there to fill in most of the void left by the Protoss being demoted. Even then, Terran was repeatedly battered with the nerf bat. Now we see foreign tournaments that are 50-70% Zergs and a Code S with Zerg winrates around 65%. This game is about to be renamed ZergCraft 2: Wings of Lings. Not true, unless you have more information than everyone else. Terran on his height had outliers of up to 66-67% winrate in TvP (and was nearly always favored at that time) and was (nearly steadily) between 55-60% in TvZ. Zerg had 61% in TvZ in May (right after the queen) patch and 49% in June, after that we don't have data for Korea anymore. For PvZ, we have a swings between 56% for Z and 57% for P since the beginning of 2012, as far as the data goes. Sorry, but Zerg is nowhere near as strong as Terran was at its best. Go look at the GSL winrates and not the compounded Korean TLPD stats. In the months leading up to and during the GomTvT era, Protoss was consistently being dominated in PvZ. Not saying that Terran didn't also do well at certain points during that time, but it was consistently a problem with Protoss not doing well. Before that, in extremely early 2011 and 2010, yes, Terran was OP on the maps that we had, before all the early game nerfs.
Yeah, PvZ was quite onesided at some points as well, but the question is how did T do at its best and how does Z do now, if you state:
Terran Code S winrates at the time weren't as lopsided as Zergs are right now.
May 2011: TvP 56.1%, TvZ: 55.8%
July 2011: TvP 51.2%, TvZ: 48.6%
August 2011: 66%, TvZ: 56.3%
October 2011: 60%, TvZ: 55.1%
November 2011: TvP: 53%, TvZ: 52.5%
GSL 2012, Season 3: ZvP: 45.8%, ZvT: 51.2%
GSL 2012, Season 4: ZvP: 50.8%, ZvT: 53%
GSL 2012, Season 5 (unfinished): ZvP: 58.5%, ZvT: 61.3%
So in conclusion, we have two seasons in which zergs performed on statistical average in Code S and one unfinished season where they behaved really well. That's the whole Z dominance in Code S.
Against that we have multiple seasons of above average T performances (not including early 2011/2010 as demanded).
And your theory is just wrong. Yes, Zergs did well vs Protoss before. So did Terran. Everyone did well against Protoss, hence, we had the Sad Zealot Club. Zergs didn't "kick out" the Protoss. Terrans and Zergs did alike. And Terrans had quite good winrates vs Z as well. Hence, we got GomTvT.
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Personally, I'm glad that blizzard is looking at alternative methods to tone down infestors without making too big of a change. They're completely right when they say that zerg has no clear advantage at the moment.
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EPT
