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On November 30 2012 21:58 kaiser_byrnes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 21:41 Big J wrote:On November 30 2012 21:31 kaiser_byrnes wrote:On November 30 2012 21:06 Glon wrote:On November 30 2012 11:56 TheDwf wrote:On November 30 2012 11:52 Glon wrote:
I was addressing the ZvP matchup. If you want my opinions of ZvT -- Watch bogus or Ryung for inspiration. Someone doesn't watch IPL5. Realize that the GSL Ro4 players are there for the GSL. Sniper also fell out 0-2 to STC in R2 -- they prepped for GSL and will save strategies for GSL, not use them in the early rounds of IPL. People seem to be forgetting that your entire army should not be able to be fungaled. 1. You should be split 2. Collosus in front -- focussing infestor 3. SOME templar near front to storm eggs/brood lord and feedback infestor/queen 4. SPLIT ARC w/ Stalker 5. Mothership NEAR front so that the zerg cannot poke in with Brood lords w/ out fully committing with rest of army (for fear of getting double vortexed directly on the brood lords) As for attacking into zergs, protoss should not be doing that until they have their ultimate/unbeatable army of carrier/mothership/2 collosus/arcon/high templar. Rely on warp prisms to force zerg into attacking you -- then engage the zerg in the open if possible. ... Hope ^ helped. I can write a similar how-to engage for terran if people are interested. Maybe I'll even make a full guide, we'll see. So you say Protoss shouldn't attack until they have fulfilled their entire tech-tree? Sounds like a boring, 1-dimensional game. That's exactly the point people are trying to say here, infestors are bad for the game. Please don't write up you thoughts on ZvT. Nope, that's a good game. When a big combat is avoidable through forcing small skirmishes we get more action and more depth. If a game devolves into "I built a deathball at home, now I'm gonna move it over to your base" - as PvZ is right now - that is when a game becomes boring. A game that is solely based upon timings, allins and big army battles is bad. Did you even read what Glon had written? He is suggesting that Protoss stay home and not attack at all until they have an end-game deathball. That is what you have defined as a boring game.
You may just play another game when you dont love sc2.
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On November 30 2012 21:58 kaiser_byrnes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 21:41 Big J wrote:On November 30 2012 21:31 kaiser_byrnes wrote:On November 30 2012 21:06 Glon wrote:On November 30 2012 11:56 TheDwf wrote:On November 30 2012 11:52 Glon wrote:
I was addressing the ZvP matchup. If you want my opinions of ZvT -- Watch bogus or Ryung for inspiration. Someone doesn't watch IPL5. Realize that the GSL Ro4 players are there for the GSL. Sniper also fell out 0-2 to STC in R2 -- they prepped for GSL and will save strategies for GSL, not use them in the early rounds of IPL. People seem to be forgetting that your entire army should not be able to be fungaled. 1. You should be split 2. Collosus in front -- focussing infestor 3. SOME templar near front to storm eggs/brood lord and feedback infestor/queen 4. SPLIT ARC w/ Stalker 5. Mothership NEAR front so that the zerg cannot poke in with Brood lords w/ out fully committing with rest of army (for fear of getting double vortexed directly on the brood lords) As for attacking into zergs, protoss should not be doing that until they have their ultimate/unbeatable army of carrier/mothership/2 collosus/arcon/high templar. Rely on warp prisms to force zerg into attacking you -- then engage the zerg in the open if possible. ... Hope ^ helped. I can write a similar how-to engage for terran if people are interested. Maybe I'll even make a full guide, we'll see. So you say Protoss shouldn't attack until they have fulfilled their entire tech-tree? Sounds like a boring, 1-dimensional game. That's exactly the point people are trying to say here, infestors are bad for the game. Please don't write up you thoughts on ZvT. Nope, that's a good game. When a big combat is avoidable through forcing small skirmishes we get more action and more depth. If a game devolves into "I built a deathball at home, now I'm gonna move it over to your base" - as PvZ is right now - that is when a game becomes boring. A game that is solely based upon timings, allins and big army battles is bad. Did you even read what Glon had written? He is suggesting that Protoss stay home and not attack at all until they have an end-game deathball. That is what you have defined as a boring game.
Nope, he said that Protoss should use their core mechanic - warpgate - to harass the shit out of zerg and be all over the place until they have build up an army that can combat Z in a straight up fight.
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Well i think thats really good for me. I switched from terran to zerg 2 days ago and im already in the same level i was with terran. Really good news blizzard does not know what the fuck they are doing with zerg balance.
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In other words, the Blizzard balance team is now attaching nitro boosts to their failmobile.
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On November 30 2012 22:07 ( bush wrote:
Well i think thats really good for me. I switched from terran to zerg 2 days ago and im already in the same level i was with terran. Really good news blizzard does not know what the fuck they are doing with zerg balance.
Which level have you been? Cant be very high when you take yourself serious.
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On November 30 2012 22:11 D4V3Z02 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 22:07 ( bush wrote:
Well i think thats really good for me. I switched from terran to zerg 2 days ago and im already in the same level i was with terran. Really good news blizzard does not know what the fuck they are doing with zerg balance. Which level have you been? Cant be very high when you take yourself serious.
1k points master on NA
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On November 30 2012 22:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 21:38 aksfjh wrote:On November 30 2012 21:08 Big J wrote:On November 30 2012 20:00 aksfjh wrote:On November 30 2012 19:47 Assirra wrote:On November 30 2012 18:48 dde wrote:On November 30 2012 11:29 SuperYo1000 wrote:
Global statistics don’t give us the impression that Zerg players have a general advantage, especially at the highest levels of play
In what universe are they getting there info from? At first I thought I must be taking crazy pills....Turns out...blizzard is sucking these down like candy when terrans were doing well, they nerfed terran and said they cared balance for the lower tier users. This time they decide not to touch zerg and they say they care for the top tiers and they dont wanna touch as much because they "believe" the game is balanced for the top tier users. what a joke. When terrrans were doing well it wasn't just low tier users tough. Need to remind you how GOM was called GOMTVT and how there were no less then 20 terrans in the round of 32? Even now zerg doesn't have close to that number. And yet, Terran Code S winrates at the time weren't as lopsided as Zergs are right now. The "GOMTvT" seems to be a statistical anomaly when you actually look at the game around then. The best explanation is that PvZ and PvT were bad for Protoss at the time, and since Zerg had a low representation, Terrans were there to fill in most of the void left by the Protoss being demoted. Even then, Terran was repeatedly battered with the nerf bat. Now we see foreign tournaments that are 50-70% Zergs and a Code S with Zerg winrates around 65%. This game is about to be renamed ZergCraft 2: Wings of Lings. Not true, unless you have more information than everyone else. Terran on his height had outliers of up to 66-67% winrate in TvP (and was nearly always favored at that time) and was (nearly steadily) between 55-60% in TvZ. Zerg had 61% in TvZ in May (right after the queen) patch and 49% in June, after that we don't have data for Korea anymore. For PvZ, we have a swings between 56% for Z and 57% for P since the beginning of 2012, as far as the data goes. Sorry, but Zerg is nowhere near as strong as Terran was at its best. Go look at the GSL winrates and not the compounded Korean TLPD stats. In the months leading up to and during the GomTvT era, Protoss was consistently being dominated in PvZ. Not saying that Terran didn't also do well at certain points during that time, but it was consistently a problem with Protoss not doing well. Before that, in extremely early 2011 and 2010, yes, Terran was OP on the maps that we had, before all the early game nerfs. Yeah, PvZ was quite onesided at some points as well, but the question is how did T do at its best and how does Z do now, if you state: Show nested quote +Terran Code S winrates at the time weren't as lopsided as Zergs are right now. Hence, we got GomTvT.
People seem to forget how rigid Gsl system was. As far as I remember, you only needed to win in the first round to remain in Code S and occupy space for some (better) Code A zerg, protoss OR terran player.
The tournament system really had a lot of impact on Code S having so many terrans, it was basically the consequence of very early stages of Starcraft 2 when terran really was strongest.
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oO, are they trolling us? quite possibly, because the egg HP change doesn't address any of the infestor problems. The house is burning and david kim is giving you a glass of water, while looking wise and awesome.
Infested terrans & fungal growth are both badly designed spells, doesn't matter if they are OP or if they make me cry like a 4 year old when I play ladder. They are just BADLY and POORLY thought out spells for a competitive strategy game. Tweaking one of them a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitle tidy bit is extremely underwhelming but we're getting use to is, since this is how blizz does things these days. Also, going from psionic immunity to this, capitalizes even more on the fact that they have no-fucking-idea what they are doing.
It's pretty sad to see posters whine and bitch about balance though, because what we should all want is the game to be more interesting and fun to watch. Infestors make the game boring, yet people cry like their promotion from gold to diamond is hanging from a thin and delicate balance change.
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they are just testing anything so it's not the final fixes. So we still have the light of hope :D No idea why they fix 20HP of eggs like it's the main problem  sieged tanks still 2 shots eggs
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Just make ITs so damage taken while being an egg damages the infested terran that pops out.
For example if the egg takes 50 damage out of its 100 hp the infested terran that pops will also have half health. That way hitting eggs is a bit usefull like it hardly is now but the ITs are still more sturdy in their egg form.
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the fungal growth change was the right direction....
pity.
and can the infestor spew out 'zerg like' units in a shell please????
having an armored person in an egg, unlimited, is... stupid !
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I don't get why people are so pessimistic. One storm wil kill and IT egg now. So that's a big change. IT can't dodge storms. Especially when in egg form. So a few HT will remove almost all the IT's. For terran it doesn't change that much. Except for the raven change. Which still needs a ton of upgrades. I think making ravens a bit faster will make them more useable.
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On November 30 2012 22:41 Markwerf wrote:
Just make ITs so damage taken while being an egg damages the infested terran that pops out.
For example if the egg takes 50 damage out of its 100 hp the infested terran that pops will also have half health. That way hitting eggs is a bit usefull like it hardly is now but the ITs are still more sturdy in their egg form.
siegetank does 50, 55, 60, 65 damage to armored. egg has 10 armor so 40-55 damage to egg prepatch. that 3 shots, 3 shots, 3 shot (due to regenerate) and 2 shot with +3.
postpatch it 3 shots them only with no attack upgrades and in a typical ZvT with 3 base infestor play tanks have +1 by the time so postpatch 2 shots for IT, prepatch 3. good thing.
btw its a test. numbers can be tweaked. its about the right design changes to the infestor.
thats why projectile for fungal would be beyond stupid and slow but instant is 1000 times better.
edit: *superfacepalm* for people that say queen range change and overlordspeed are bad patches.
overlordspeed was needed due to much bigger maps. (btw lol @protoss player crying about overlords seeing everything which isnt even true while getting free hallucination in HOTS)
queen range was needed because terran could go for faster 3rd base than zerg with helions parked in front of the base into cloakbanshee parked at the 3rd "play". so it was either buff queens or buff early game roach baneling so you could viably counterpressure and take 3rd behind it. btw higher queenrange made zvz a whole lot more enjoyable.
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On November 30 2012 14:06 Grimmyman123 wrote:
I like the idea of a complete refit of the Infestor, different spells or major changes, not slightly changing its units.
The zerg matchup is stagnant because of a number of issues:
1) Queen range makes for a defensive and offensive unit when it is supposed to be a hatchery based spell caster (creating larvae and creep are its primary jobs) and because of this, a good amount of cheese and early pressure can not work, and Queens can deny all early scouting with probes and requires commitment of an army unit to scout early.
combined with:
2) Zerg map haps er.. I mean Overlords. They can scout the map and even without speed can scout almost anything on any location, on any map, without restriction, in the early game. Cheesing zerg on a 2 player map simply is not possible, as goes with smaller or close by air 4 player maps.
Because of 1) and 2) Zerg's can play VERY safe early game with excellent scouting and can play reactionary in the early game. This promotes Zerg's playing very very greedy, giving them an advantage for the rest of the match. These 2 things together change the game and matchups when zerg is involved.
Solution: Nerf 1) or 2). Both is not required, but #2 would be the most effective.
Infestor still needs a complete rework, but killing overlord speed buff is probably the best way to force zergs to play greedy with RISK.
Very good observation. I think the way the whole army of zerg works is also risk free as a late game zerg army doesn't have to be micro that good as the others do. This might result out of the greedy playstyle that can still replenish huge loses but is also a product of the infestor mechanic.
In combination with this mappool it's a joke how easy playing zerg has become. ZvT was great once. Now i can enjoy top tier players in GSL code S but the rest is totally stupid. The only thing I enjoy (i play zerg) is seening zerg getting stomped by very strong terran timings in the midgame...
When I think back games like ryungs second game on the "GSL loves Zerg map" I get totally frustrated.
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I don't think a lot will change with this patch. I was very hopeful for the fungal projectile change.. ):
On November 30 2012 22:41 Markwerf wrote:
Just make ITs so damage taken while being an egg damages the infested terran that pops out.
For example if the egg takes 50 damage out of its 100 hp the infested terran that pops will also have half health. That way hitting eggs is a bit usefull like it hardly is now but the ITs are still more sturdy in their egg form.
i don't think this is a bad change
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MB try with Fungal not hitting massive or, so that it only damages biological or something.
Don't just stop there, there are severe issues with Fungal Growth and no the game is not balanced at highest level play.
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Lmao so much fail after that one step in the right direction.
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On November 30 2012 21:06 Glon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 11:56 TheDwf wrote:On November 30 2012 11:52 Glon wrote:
I was addressing the ZvP matchup. If you want my opinions of ZvT -- Watch bogus or Ryung for inspiration. Someone doesn't watch IPL5. Realize that the GSL Ro4 players are there for the GSL. Sniper also fell out 0-2 to STC in R2 -- they prepped for GSL and will save strategies for GSL, not use them in the early rounds of IPL. People seem to be forgetting that your entire army should not be able to be fungaled. 1. You should be split 2. Collosus in front -- focussing infestor 3. SOME templar near front to storm eggs/brood lord and feedback infestor/queen 4. SPLIT ARC w/ Stalker 5. Mothership NEAR front so that the zerg cannot poke in with Brood lords w/ out fully committing with rest of army (for fear of getting double vortexed directly on the brood lords) As for attacking into zergs, protoss should not be doing that until they have their ultimate/unbeatable army of carrier/mothership/2 collosus/arcon/high templar. Rely on warp prisms to force zerg into attacking you -- then engage the zerg in the open if possible. This egg change will also make it easier for late game engagements -- Since zergs must now actually have some roaches since infested terran eggs will die so easily before even hatching. Hope ^ helped. I can write a similar how-to engage for terran if people are interested. Maybe I'll even make a full guide, we'll see.
Sooo ... if you play against Zerg you should spread out. Where is the mechanic of the other two races which forces the Zerg to spread out? Zerg have Banelings and Fungal as "instakill", but neither Storm (you can run out of that), nor Siege Tank (the damage is so ridiculously low that it only kills Zerglings and due to the immobility you already know where they are and can avoid it), nor Colossi (sure they are deadly in masses, but you dont die from one hit), nor Seeker Missile (the target is even announced and at 6 range you can even shoot down the Raven before it can launch the missile) fulfill that function.
So you have ONE RACE which has a clear advantage of having several mechanics which smartasses "make balanced" by saying "you should have been split before you got hit". The other two races are severely screwed and are more difficult to play because of the stupid movement mechanic which autoclumps the units.
IF you DONT attack the Zerg until your army is at full strength you are
a) letting the Zerg have full map control without even bothering to challenge them, thus allowing them to stockpile larvae and resources to reproduce their stuff after a big engagement and
b) you probably face Infestors with FULL ENERGY.
The terrible truth is that there are no really great units to fight a Broodlord/Infestor army with and thus the only "viable counter" is: Dont let Zerg get that far. That is a stupid "solution" ...
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On November 30 2012 22:55 Sjokola wrote:
I don't get why people are so pessimistic. One storm wil kill and IT egg now. So that's a big change. IT can't dodge storms. Especially when in egg form. So a few HT will remove almost all the IT's. For terran it doesn't change that much. Except for the raven change. Which still needs a ton of upgrades. I think making ravens a bit faster will make them more useable.
Raven change is a right step towards actually getting ravens in reasonable time against broodlord/corruptor but zerg will still be stronger late game because it is only part of the problem.
Protoss has trouble beating late game zerg army but if that fight somewhat goes in protoss favor, zerg is finished.
On the other hand I watched yesterday Thorzain's stream where he produced a lot of vikings and ravens, managed to kill super expensive broodlord army but zerg attacked him with roach ling, he lost a lot of vikings and next broodlord corruptor army killed him.
I may be biased but it seems that terran has to make exact perfect army to account for both bl-infestor but also ultra, ling, roach or any other tech switch. It is very easy to overproduce any of those units because how everything needs to be produced ahead to match something like 15 corruptors, 30 roaches or 100 lings spawning at the same time. You need to produce right amount of vikings and ravens, but also keep enough tanks, thors, mariners and or marauders because zerg has 2 attempts to break you, providing the economy is good.
Ghost covered that role a bit too well for terran, but the nerf was too severe because zerg has both tech switch advantage AND general purpose unit (infestor) that deals with mech (inf. terran) or bio (fungal), air, ground, mechanical... you name it.
Add to all that bigger maps, nerfs to terran early game/buffs to zerg early game, better scouting for zerg - all this enables zerg to get to the game stage where they feel comfortable too easy/too soon in my opinion. And if two players of similar skill level match, zerg has the upper hand.
Ghost nerf and queen buff - that era of Blizzard balancing ruined TvZ. The matchup that was considered most fun/balanced of all Sc2 matchups. You may not even agree on balance part, but there is no doubt TvZ is ruined from viewer perspective.
And instead of causing the problems by reverting those nerfs/buffs at least to some extent, they try to do non plausible cosmetic changes.
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On November 30 2012 22:12 ( bush wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 22:11 D4V3Z02 wrote:On November 30 2012 22:07 ( bush wrote:
Well i think thats really good for me. I switched from terran to zerg 2 days ago and im already in the same level i was with terran. Really good news blizzard does not know what the fuck they are doing with zerg balance. Which level have you been? Cant be very high when you take yourself serious. 1k points master on NA
I don't believe this, link your profile URL or sc2ranks.
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EPT
