EPTCall to Action #2: November 30 Balance Testing - Page 14
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UnholyRai
720 Posts
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
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ETisME
12276 Posts
On November 30 2012 20:16 bGr.MetHiX wrote: ETisMe did you read my post? please do. and see the proposed changes.they in no way make voretx imba.because u counter vortex by spreading. sure, and I agree with quite a lot of things you have said. infestors ae definitly used in all match up and a problem But PvZ is also a matchup where zerg finds it frustrating as well. It all comes down to whether the vortex is landed or not, it doesn't matter if you had 300 food army because the core will evapore if archon toilet happened It's completely biased when you say vortex does little to nothing because I have yet to see where a similar food toss landed a archon toilet onto the broodlords and zerg can still be ok. I have not seen a lot of toss not able to walk their archons in, even with fungals and IT because ITs get picked off extremely quickly by colossus and archons. Same with fungal because infestors are too far back and if they get close, they get sniped It's frustrating to play against and play as Zerg. And I don't like the fact that you compare infestors to ghost and HTs. They serve different roles. You can however, mass up a fleet of ravens Life did well in GSL is much more than just infestors, he has a lot of advantage in his ling micro etc. Don't put everything onto infestors. It's just how that style works and he plays that style well. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
They already do huge dps (compare it with autoturrets), and they also soak op huge amounts of damage without actually getting damaged by it. And well raven change, maybe it gives blizzard a warm feeling they are doing something about it. They say it doesnt impact terran late game, true. It also doesnt impact terran in any other face of the game. | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On November 30 2012 11:29 SuperYo1000 wrote: Global statistics don’t give us the impression that Zerg players have a general advantage, especially at the highest levels of play In what universe are they getting there info from? At first I thought I must be taking crazy pills....Turns out...blizzard is sucking these down like candy Well I believe they are righr about these statistics.. from a quantitive point of view. The stats however don't say that some Code B, or even worse.. Foreigner, Zergs are beating top level toss and terran players, while they did not before. Anyway Blizzard doesn't even watch this game. Sometimes one of the Blizz guy will attend to a live event, and he'll make damn sure he's filmed there because otherwise it's a waste of his PR time. If they did watch this game seriously, they wouldn't stand watching a mass infestor army.. spellcasters are support units, not a core units. If they did watch this game, they wouldn't stand with a "sit on 3 bases and wait to be maxed" game... I mean come on. Unit supply was invented back when RTS engines couldn't stand too many units at once. Maxing out shouldn't be common, now it's a balance thing.. And for those still defending Blizzard, you are the cancer of this community. You are creating confusion among the general consensus, and you are not helping with the problem. If this community was united in saying this game is going nowhere fast, and Browder and Kim need to gg out of their position, we could actually achieve something.. But right now, all we have are internal debates whether this game is doing good or not.. wtf? I really can't wait for Riot to make a good RTS game. Blizzard is worthless now, they tell us how they've tried all the suggestions internally (the ones we've given to them) like for example the army clumping thing, while they can't even get their Battle.net interface correctly. They've wanted to create the ultimate E-sports game, and they released it WITHOUT CHATROOMS. What the fuck is that joke? Seriously.. we've given 2 years for them to actually do something about so many things that bothered us, and we ACCEPTED the fact that they couldn't do drastic changes without an expansion transition. But now the transition is here, and they've shown that "we listen, but we really don't give a fuck." | ||
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Glon
United States569 Posts
Realize that the GSL Ro4 players are there for the GSL. Sniper also fell out 0-2 to STC in R2 -- they prepped for GSL and will save strategies for GSL, not use them in the early rounds of IPL. People seem to be forgetting that your entire army should not be able to be fungaled. 1. You should be split 2. Collosus in front -- focussing infestor 3. SOME templar near front to storm eggs/brood lord and feedback infestor/queen 4. SPLIT ARC w/ Stalker 5. Mothership NEAR front so that the zerg cannot poke in with Brood lords w/ out fully committing with rest of army (for fear of getting double vortexed directly on the brood lords) As for attacking into zergs, protoss should not be doing that until they have their ultimate/unbeatable army of carrier/mothership/2 collosus/arcon/high templar. Rely on warp prisms to force zerg into attacking you -- then engage the zerg in the open if possible. This egg change will also make it easier for late game engagements -- Since zergs must now actually have some roaches since infested terran eggs will die so easily before even hatching. Hope ^ helped. I can write a similar how-to engage for terran if people are interested. Maybe I'll even make a full guide, we'll see. | ||
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Finnz
United Kingdom260 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 30 2012 20:00 aksfjh wrote: And yet, Terran Code S winrates at the time weren't as lopsided as Zergs are right now. The "GOMTvT" seems to be a statistical anomaly when you actually look at the game around then. The best explanation is that PvZ and PvT were bad for Protoss at the time, and since Zerg had a low representation, Terrans were there to fill in most of the void left by the Protoss being demoted. Even then, Terran was repeatedly battered with the nerf bat. Now we see foreign tournaments that are 50-70% Zergs and a Code S with Zerg winrates around 65%. This game is about to be renamed ZergCraft 2: Wings of Lings. Not true, unless you have more information than everyone else. Terran on his height had outliers of up to 66-67% winrate in TvP (and was nearly always favored at that time) and was (nearly steadily) between 55-60% in TvZ. Zerg had 61% in TvZ in May (right after the queen) patch and 49% in June, after that we don't have data for Korea anymore. For PvZ, we have a swings between 56% for Z and 57% for P since the beginning of 2012, as far as the data goes. Sorry, but Zerg is nowhere near as strong as Terran was at its best. | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On November 30 2012 19:11 Xpace wrote: "Blizzard is killing e-Sports" - it's not funny or witty, it's actually quite depressing. Blizzard has no more control on the growth of E-Sports.. Riot does. | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On November 30 2012 21:06 Glon wrote: People seem to be forgetting that your entire army should not be able to be fungaled. 1. You should be split 2. Collosus in front -- focussing infestor 3. SOME templar near front to storm eggs/brood lord and feedback infestor/queen 4. SPLIT ARC w/ Stalker 5. Mothership NEAR front so that the zerg cannot poke in with Brood lords w/ out fully committing with rest of army (for fear of getting double vortexed directly on the brood lords) As for attacking into zergs, protoss should not be doing that until they have their ultimate/unbeatable army of carrier/mothership/2 collosus/arcon/high templar. Rely on warp prisms to force zerg into attacking you -- then engage the zerg in the open if possible. This egg change will also make it easier for late game engagements -- Since zergs must now actually have some roaches since infested terran eggs will die so easily before even hatching. Hope ^ helped. I can write a similar how-to engage for terran if people are interested. Maybe I'll even make a full guide, we'll see. Is this a joke? Who are you, and why do you think you have any advice to give to pro players as to how to engage a Zerg army? I'd appreciate you offrace a little, instead of playing with OP units and thinking it's easy to counter. The truth of the matter is, you probably have a higher chance of winning than way more skilled players than you. I felt the same when I played toss, got outplayed by a terran all game, yet he screwed one engagement and lost his whole ball against 2 or 3 storms. Then I warped 10+ zealots in his base, and he couldn't do a single thing about it. His BM was justified (not against me but against the game). If you're not going to be honest to us, at least be honest to yourself. | ||
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Slackzftw
Germany361 Posts
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leo23
United States3075 Posts
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Clow
Brazil880 Posts
On November 30 2012 21:12 Patate wrote: Blizzard has no more control on the growth of E-Sports.. Riot does. Damn! Let's hope Riot allows Fighting Games and FPS Games to continue to exist, would be a shame if Riot decided to shut them down. --- On topic: Blizzard is trying out different things, it's really funny how people just RAGE at them whenever they test stuff out. Like they're balance experts who would obviously do a much better job than Blizzard. Just go test it and stop crying. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
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Nourek
Germany188 Posts
On November 30 2012 17:57 Big J wrote: I haven't tried it, but imo it's safe to say that this isn't enough. They must attack the ITs themselves aswell, if you ask me. Don't get me wrong, the 80HP eggs is exactly what I would have done. But I think that ITs need -1 or -2 on their damage as well. Probably. Though what some people overlook imo is that previously, one egg would take 4 tank shots, or 3 with +1 on tanks. Now it's 3 shots, or 2 with +2. That should make the "throw IT eggs in front to absorb some damage" or "throw eggs at units to get tanks to splash own units" less effective. | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On November 30 2012 21:24 Clow wrote: Damn! Let's hope Riot allows Fighting Games and FPS Games to continue to exist, would be a shame if Riot decided to shut them down. --- On topic: Blizzard is trying out different things, it's really funny how people just RAGE at them whenever they test stuff out. Like they're balance experts who would obviously do a much better job than Blizzard. Just go test it and stop crying. You are missing the point. People criticize because Blizzard seems to be afraid to make appropriate changes. The problem is not the balance testing, everyone sane welcomes that, but it is obvious that they just want to make an impression of doing something to solve infestor problem rather than actually do changes that would have an impact on the game. They are afraid to touch infestors even on 1 balance test map, while in the past, they severely nerfed units in actual patches. They talk about watching the metagame carefully since May and queen buff, and every time they made some minor changes (like proposed creep nerf or raven speed or this changes) they find 2 IEM games with terrans using ravens as an excuse to do nothing. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On November 30 2012 21:06 Glon wrote: Hope ^ helped. I can write a similar how-to engage for terran if people are interested. Maybe I'll even make a full guide, we'll see. Let me make your guide how terrans should engage: Have your tanks nicely split. Dont clump up marines Stim your bio, stutter step Make sure your vikings arent caught by fungals Focus siege tank fire on infestors Focus viking fire on one broodlord at a time If a bit possible stim your marines to run forward, kil broodlords, yet dont get clumped up while going forward and maintain perfect spread Keep your medivacs slightly behind your bio Lets not forget the ghosts, do blanket emps on the infestors Also dont let your ghosts get killed Meanwhile do 3 simultanious drops in the zerg mineral lines Oh and dont forget to expand. In other words: It is absolutely trivial to tell how in an ideal situation you should handle it. But we are only human (especially us non-pros), so there is a huge difference between knowing how to do it perfectly, and doing it. Meanwhile a zerg has to cast his fungals and spam ITs everywhere. | ||
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kaiser_byrnes
Canada6 Posts
On November 30 2012 21:06 Glon wrote: Realize that the GSL Ro4 players are there for the GSL. Sniper also fell out 0-2 to STC in R2 -- they prepped for GSL and will save strategies for GSL, not use them in the early rounds of IPL. People seem to be forgetting that your entire army should not be able to be fungaled. 1. You should be split 2. Collosus in front -- focussing infestor 3. SOME templar near front to storm eggs/brood lord and feedback infestor/queen 4. SPLIT ARC w/ Stalker 5. Mothership NEAR front so that the zerg cannot poke in with Brood lords w/ out fully committing with rest of army (for fear of getting double vortexed directly on the brood lords) As for attacking into zergs, protoss should not be doing that until they have their ultimate/unbeatable army of carrier/mothership/2 collosus/arcon/high templar. Rely on warp prisms to force zerg into attacking you -- then engage the zerg in the open if possible. ... Hope ^ helped. I can write a similar how-to engage for terran if people are interested. Maybe I'll even make a full guide, we'll see. So you say Protoss shouldn't attack until they have fulfilled their entire tech-tree? Sounds like a boring, 1-dimensional game. That's exactly the point people are trying to say here, infestors are bad for the game. Please don't write up you thoughts on ZvT. | ||
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Inquisitor1323
370 Posts
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On November 30 2012 21:08 Big J wrote: Not true, unless you have more information than everyone else. Terran on his height had outliers of up to 66-67% winrate in TvP (and was nearly always favored at that time) and was (nearly steadily) between 55-60% in TvZ. Zerg had 61% in TvZ in May (right after the queen) patch and 49% in June, after that we don't have data for Korea anymore. For PvZ, we have a swings between 56% for Z and 57% for P since the beginning of 2012, as far as the data goes. Sorry, but Zerg is nowhere near as strong as Terran was at its best. Go look at the GSL winrates and not the compounded Korean TLPD stats. In the months leading up to and during the GomTvT era, Protoss was consistently being dominated in PvZ. Not saying that Terran didn't also do well at certain points during that time, but it was consistently a problem with Protoss not doing well. Before that, in extremely early 2011 and 2010, yes, Terran was OP on the maps that we had, before all the early game nerfs. | ||
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