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On November 30 2012 19:01 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 18:57 Decendos wrote:
fungal become a projectile is the most stupid idea ever.
too slow: fungal is now completely useless and blinkstalker and marines become retardedly OP.
too fast: nothing changes, chain fungal still possible.
just remove the root and make fungal a slow already.
the hp nerf for IT is very nice though. mass IT will become a lot worse. 80 might be too much though since now 1 storm can kill 20 IT eggs which might be too much. Still can't kill eggs, which would actually be a fair tradeoff considering. The regen of eggs leave them with 1 hp, and only a 1 second window to cast storm for the full effect.
ah okay. didnt know eggs regenerate. 80hp will be fine then.
still fungal a projectile will make blinkstalker and marines either completely broken (both are already borderline OP) or nothing will change if the projectile is so fast that you cant dodge it.
most people in the community want blizzard to change fungal to a slow so you cant chain fungal that easy any more while still keeping balance for marines and blinkstalker. i really hope they test that instead of the projectile thing which failed before...
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On November 30 2012 18:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 17:41 nt-rAven wrote:On November 30 2012 17:38 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I love how there is so much QQ, and much of this QQ is based on the reasoning of something like "Blizzard is missing very obvious solutions to the balance!"
but then you see all the other posts' suggestions, and they heavily differ
and also this is a test map, not an official patch, so to be fair you can't say blizzard can't balance if you don't like this change Its not really QQ when its obvious changes, if u subtract something it will eventually have diminishing returns overtime (protoss removing amulet and voidray speed, rendering both from op to unusuable) yet with infestors instead of doing similar (removing energy upgrade which would fix it like it did templars) they let it happen because both dustin browder and david kim are zerg players at heart lol~ Um, nerfing the infestor also makes it weaker? There's more ways to nerf something than just taking away an upgrade. They've tested nerfing fungal, and now they're testing nerfing ITs. Both nerf the infestor which "will eventually have diminishing returns". Also I don't see how it's obvious when you're the only one I've seen so far to suggest removing Infestor energy. Which goes back to my post, which you didn't really address at all.
Diminishing returns is seeing 20 infestors and knowing no one can do anything against it, Diminishing returns is when zerg can be safe all game long unless they mess up, diminishing returns is when you balance terran and protoss and dont balance zerg at all (plz tell me a significant nerf aside from neural parasite being op and reducing its range lol infestors)
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Wow, just wow. I can't believe that they are not changing fungal. Infestor broodlord is so strong, and I am still waiting to see a terran kill it cost efficiently (no guys, those games where the terran sent some hsm to a clumped up bl army don't count).
I really want to know what a terran is supposed to do against a well spreaded broodlord corruptor infestor queen army. I don't see a way to trade cost efficiënt against it. EVERY zerg I met says "kill me before I get broodlords" (besides the few who think hsm is the key).
I was seeing myself going mass MMM with cloacked ghosts, but now that the ghosts can be fungalled again, this won't work 
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Italy12246 Posts
There's no way in hell they are basing this on the actual games played on that ridicolous map....where, 1) there is no cross spawns enforced, 2) no matchmaking. I haven't found a single Master player on it when i tried (i did like 15 or so games).
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"Blizzard is killing e-Sports" - it's not funny or witty, it's actually quite depressing.
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I still think the main problem is the number of infestors itself. The best change imho is change the foodcount of infestors. Fungal can be ok, and so can be ITs... As long as there aren't 20/30 infestors in play.
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Germany1073 Posts
1 Storm now kills an Egg damn ;D
Nevermind, jsut read about the regen 8 posts up
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Italy12246 Posts
On November 30 2012 19:21 Daumen wrote:
1 Storm now kills an Egg damn ;D
It doesn't, an Egg will regenerate 1hp during the storm.
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Ah it was mentioned that storm now deals with the eggs. While they regenerate their typical health storm does 80 damage over 4 seconds. Eggs need 5 to hatch. So you need 2 storms to clear a huge field of Infested Terrans eggs. Before they would hatch if they didn't take any other damage and would be at their usual 50 health and if the storms weren't perfect they often survived in the red after 2 storms. So the Energy needed to remove Infested terrans became reduced. Also they won't get any time to do damage under 2 storms. I think the change makes it easier to fight Infested Terrans for toss. They always grabbed huge chunks of the Toss army so I think this change is pretty good.
Terrans don't really have an issue at killing Infested Terrans on mass, and it looks like they kept it at 80 hp to still remain the same tank shot amount.
They really do know their numbers thats for sure.
This change is pretty nice for Protoss, if they would couple it with cloaked units being immune to fungal then <3 (well they would need to remove the cloaking field from the MS)
Also for those complaining that it is not enough, they test these changes in an isolated fashion, so that their data will not be affected by other changes they might have added.
We might even get both or some switch up. Where ghosts get immune to fungal with a passive ability, while Toss gets their Storm removes the infested terrans as damage dealers change.
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On November 30 2012 19:02 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 11:29 SuperYo1000 wrote:
Global statistics don’t give us the impression that Zerg players have a general advantage, especially at the highest levels of play
In what universe are they getting there info from? At first I thought I must be taking crazy pills....Turns out...blizzard is sucking these down like candy I saw their statement as well and I will add one thing: IF THIS IS TRUE WHY THE F*** ARE YOU EVEN TOUCHING ZERG? They are a walking/talking contradiction. Dustin's threads should really be in a philosophy class of how NOT to prove a statement. This has to be the most ridiculous statement I've heard in a long time when they are the ones creating "call to action" threads. Blizzard, please just own up to the imbalanced level of infestors and move forward. I understand how "playing down" the problem with imbalance is a good mitigating control for job security, but Dustin and David should just quit at this point.
They never said that statistics are their only source of information. They stated one source.
A commonly known goal of Blizz is to create viable variation in the game. They watch many tournaments in order to come up with ways to create more variation.
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How to Nerf Fungal Growth without Buffing Sentries
Make Fungal Growth more like Seeker Missile and less like Psionic Storms.
A) Make it a spell that targets one unit, rather than an area.
B) Retain the rest of the functions - damage over time, root, instant cast.
Effect:
A) Ghosts cannot be uncloaked by Fungal Growth alone and will require overseer.
B) This increase skill level with Terran trying to snipe Overseers with Vikings while juking Infestors.
C) Cost gas to make multiple overseers and make it more challenging to mass a ton of Infestors.
Side effect:
A) All other invisible units will be affected. Good, because it reduces infestor utility.
B) Make it more difficult to assess the AoE of the spell, but perhaps increases the skill ceiling.
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On November 30 2012 18:48 dde wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 11:29 SuperYo1000 wrote:
Global statistics don’t give us the impression that Zerg players have a general advantage, especially at the highest levels of play
In what universe are they getting there info from? At first I thought I must be taking crazy pills....Turns out...blizzard is sucking these down like candy when terrans were doing well, they nerfed terran and said they cared balance for the lower tier users. This time they decide not to touch zerg and they say they care for the top tiers and they dont wanna touch as much because they "believe" the game is balanced for the top tier users. what a joke.
When terrrans were doing well it wasn't just low tier users tough.
Need to remind you how GOM was called GOMTVT and how there were no less then 20 terrans in the round of 32?
Even now zerg doesn't have close to that number.
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On November 30 2012 19:47 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 18:48 dde wrote:On November 30 2012 11:29 SuperYo1000 wrote:
Global statistics don’t give us the impression that Zerg players have a general advantage, especially at the highest levels of play
In what universe are they getting there info from? At first I thought I must be taking crazy pills....Turns out...blizzard is sucking these down like candy when terrans were doing well, they nerfed terran and said they cared balance for the lower tier users. This time they decide not to touch zerg and they say they care for the top tiers and they dont wanna touch as much because they "believe" the game is balanced for the top tier users. what a joke. When terrrans were doing well it wasn't just low tier users tough. Need to remind you how GOM was called GOMTVT and how there were no less then 20 terrans in the round of 32? Even now zerg doesn't have close to that number.
You seem to forget that Terran players are just better humans by birth! ;-)
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On November 30 2012 19:47 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 18:48 dde wrote:On November 30 2012 11:29 SuperYo1000 wrote:
Global statistics don’t give us the impression that Zerg players have a general advantage, especially at the highest levels of play
In what universe are they getting there info from? At first I thought I must be taking crazy pills....Turns out...blizzard is sucking these down like candy when terrans were doing well, they nerfed terran and said they cared balance for the lower tier users. This time they decide not to touch zerg and they say they care for the top tiers and they dont wanna touch as much because they "believe" the game is balanced for the top tier users. what a joke. When terrrans were doing well it wasn't just low tier users tough. Need to remind you how GOM was called GOMTVT and how there were no less then 20 terrans in the round of 32? Even now zerg doesn't have close to that number.
And yet, Terran Code S winrates at the time weren't as lopsided as Zergs are right now. The "GOMTvT" seems to be a statistical anomaly when you actually look at the game around then. The best explanation is that PvZ and PvT were bad for Protoss at the time, and since Zerg had a low representation, Terrans were there to fill in most of the void left by the Protoss being demoted.
Even then, Terran was repeatedly battered with the nerf bat. Now we see foreign tournaments that are 50-70% Zergs and a Code S with Zerg winrates around 65%. This game is about to be renamed ZergCraft 2: Wings of Lings.
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+ Show Spoiler +Dear Blizzard,
I am a passionate sc2 player (protoss) who is currently in the grandmaster league on NA around the 70th spot. I've also been as high as top100 GM on the european server a couple of months back so i consider myself knowledgeable when it comes to the game and its current state.
I have a strict rule that forbids me from writing long posts (or any posts at all for that matter) because i simply believe its a waste of time.This time though i must break that rule and just share with you how disappointed i feel and why do i feel this way.
1.Blizzard has said many times they want diversity.
- I remember when they were investigating possible muta imbalance they said "If we see something too often then we might investigate whether its too powerful"
Dear Blizzard,Infestors are being used in every match-up,ZvZ,ZvT,ZvP,ON EVERY MAP,against every composition you can think of.EVERY GAME.NO EXCEPTIONS
2. Infestor has too many uses.Thanks to the synergy of its abilities it is the probably the best defensive unit out there,has great harrassment purposes (thanks to burrow movement and throwing IT while being burrowed o_O umad?),its good for offense and is a caster that can be massed.You cant mass only collosi or ht behind cannons,you cant mass ghosts only behind planetaries but massing spines and infestors behind it is the go-to build in every late game zerg build on every map and every match-up.That's just broken.
3.Vortex solves little to nothing
- Good zergs fungal archons so they dont get into the Vortex.
- Good zergs throw infested terrans to block the path of the Archon to reach the vortex.
- Good zergs spread their army so one vortex is never enough.
- Good zergs have 200 food,70 infested terrans,10 spores,20 spines and queens transfusing everything that is on low health.Thats around 300 food lategame army imho.
- Infested terrans / broodlings (free units) scale with upgrades.That is a wonderful idea . o_O
- INFESTED TERRANS,THROWN IN THE VORTEX ACTUALLY PUSH AWAY THE ARCHONS FROM THE BROODLORDS WHEN THE VORTEX IS OVER SO YOU CANT EFFICIENTLY ARCHON TOILET.
- Neural Parasite on a mothership is insta-GG.That seems broken to me.
4. I have no idea how Terrans are managing with Infestors
- Ask whoever top terran you want they will say the same thing "ITs own this match-up".I've seen demuslim,majOr,thorzain all talk about it.
- Watch startale_life destroy terrans in GSL with 8 burrowed infestors
- Blizzard,do you remember wc3 and Keeper of the grove?Entangling roots spell?It was a hero(!!!) spell that could entangle a unit in one place and deal damage over time.It could be cast only on non-mechanical ground units.Now guess what?Fungal growth does the same thing but can be cast on AIR,GROUND,MECHANICAL,AOE(!!!!!!!),INSTACAST (!!!!!!!) and can be chain casted by a unit that can be massed....Who cares if infested terrans are slow?The army they are facing is chainfungaled in front of them.
5. A question from a fan
Dear Blizzard,if theoretically Protoss is winning 100% of his 2base and 3base all-ins and zergs are winning 100% of the games past 3 bases does that show a 50% winrate (everything is fine) in your match-up statistics? Zergs have learnt how to deal with the 2base all-ins,its only a matter of time before they learn how to defend the 3base all-ins.And im sure that wont turn out good for the balance in the long run.
6.You have to act now.
I know you dont really care about WoL when hots is like 3-4 months away.I nderstand that,you are a company that makes money from computer games,not a charity organization.That's all fine with me.The only thing i'm worried about is that a lot of people still do play WoL and they will feel less motivated to buy the expansion if things keep up with being so stale. Fix WoL , theres nothing much into it , a single patch can make things a lot better,but the patch must be spot on.If you dont do that,its just a bad legacy for HotS.
7. My proposed changes :
HSM no longer requires an upgrade
Infested terrans now cost 35 energy,up from 25.
Infested Terran eggs are with the same attack priority as the Infested Terrans themselves.
Infested Terran eggs 75 hp , down from 100
You can no longer neural a Mothership.
Archons (kind of like ultralisks ability) immune to fungal.
this is what i wrote.i hope they read.
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Am i the only one here that blizzard is testing something new? i mean, at least they are trying. and this isn't final guys. they tried the whole pisonic thing, and it was too much. now they are trying something less drastic. Blizzard may look at this and say "hey, its not enough" and try something else. at least they are working on it. and to those people who are like "im quitting starcraft" maybe you should try to be part of the solution. go test out the map a few times, and then write and educated post on what you liked and didn't like. Baby steps people, baby steps.
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On November 30 2012 20:00 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 19:47 Assirra wrote:On November 30 2012 18:48 dde wrote:On November 30 2012 11:29 SuperYo1000 wrote:
Global statistics don’t give us the impression that Zerg players have a general advantage, especially at the highest levels of play
In what universe are they getting there info from? At first I thought I must be taking crazy pills....Turns out...blizzard is sucking these down like candy when terrans were doing well, they nerfed terran and said they cared balance for the lower tier users. This time they decide not to touch zerg and they say they care for the top tiers and they dont wanna touch as much because they "believe" the game is balanced for the top tier users. what a joke. When terrrans were doing well it wasn't just low tier users tough. Need to remind you how GOM was called GOMTVT and how there were no less then 20 terrans in the round of 32? Even now zerg doesn't have close to that number. And yet, Terran Code S winrates at the time weren't as lopsided as Zergs are right now. The "GOMTvT" seems to be a statistical anomaly when you actually look at the game around then. The best explanation is that PvZ and PvT were bad for Protoss at the time, and since Zerg had a low representation, Terrans were there to fill in most of the void left by the Protoss being demoted.
Just to add to you: Terran also had the highest amount of pro/semi-pro brood war players to transition. His best argument is the early days before players even knew how to play and a wild meta-game/patch era. The current metagame is quite stagnant due to certain units.
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Global statistics don’t give us the impression that Zerg players have a general advantage
can we see the numbers? otherwise it's just a meaningless statement
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On November 30 2012 11:08 Shiori wrote:
These are the most embarrassingly worthless changes possible. I'm seriously contemplating quitting this game if this is how Blizzard approaches balance.
bye
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On November 30 2012 20:00 bGr.MetHiX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Dear Blizzard,
I am a passionate sc2 player (protoss) who is currently in the grandmaster league on NA around the 70th spot. I've also been as high as top100 GM on the european server a couple of months back so i consider myself knowledgeable when it comes to the game and its current state.
I have a strict rule that forbids me from writing long posts (or any posts at all for that matter) because i simply believe its a waste of time.This time though i must break that rule and just share with you how disappointed i feel and why do i feel this way.
1.Blizzard has said many times they want diversity.
- I remember when they were investigating possible muta imbalance they said "If we see something too often then we might investigate whether its too powerful"
Dear Blizzard,Infestors are being used in every match-up,ZvZ,ZvT,ZvP,ON EVERY MAP,against every composition you can think of.EVERY GAME.NO EXCEPTIONS
2. Infestor has too many uses.Thanks to the synergy of its abilities it is the probably the best defensive unit out there,has great harrassment purposes (thanks to burrow movement and throwing IT while being burrowed o_O umad?),its good for offense and is a caster that can be massed.You cant mass only collosi or ht behind cannons,you cant mass ghosts only behind planetaries but massing spines and infestors behind it is the go-to build in every late game zerg build on every map and every match-up.That's just broken.
3.Vortex solves little to nothing
- Good zergs fungal archons so they dont get into the Vortex.
- Good zergs throw infested terrans to block the path of the Archon to reach the vortex.
- Good zergs spread their army so one vortex is never enough.
- Good zergs have 200 food,70 infested terrans,10 spores,20 spines and queens transfusing everything that is on low health.Thats around 300 food lategame army imho.
- Infested terrans / broodlings (free units) scale with upgrades.That is a wonderful idea . o_O
- INFESTED TERRANS,THROWN IN THE VORTEX ACTUALLY PUSH AWAY THE ARCHONS FROM THE BROODLORDS WHEN THE VORTEX IS OVER SO YOU CANT EFFICIENTLY ARCHON TOILET.
- Neural Parasite on a mothership is insta-GG.That seems broken to me.
4. I have no idea how Terrans are managing with Infestors
- Ask whoever top terran you want they will say the same thing "ITs own this match-up".I've seen demuslim,majOr,thorzain all talk about it.
- Watch startale_life destroy terrans in GSL with 8 burrowed infestors
- Blizzard,do you remember wc3 and Keeper of the grove?Entangling roots spell?It was a hero(!!!) spell that could entangle a unit in one place and deal damage over time.It could be cast only on non-mechanical ground units.Now guess what?Fungal growth does the same thing but can be cast on AIR,GROUND,MECHANICAL,AOE(!!!!!!!),INSTACAST (!!!!!!!) and can be chain casted by a unit that can be massed....Who cares if infested terrans are slow?The army they are facing is chainfungaled in front of them.
5. A question from a fan
Dear Blizzard,if theoretically Protoss is winning 100% of his 2base and 3base all-ins and zergs are winning 100% of the games past 3 bases does that show a 50% winrate (everything is fine) in your match-up statistics? Zergs have learnt how to deal with the 2base all-ins,its only a matter of time before they learn how to defend the 3base all-ins.And im sure that wont turn out good for the balance in the long run.
6.You have to act now.
I know you dont really care about WoL when hots is like 3-4 months away.I nderstand that,you are a company that makes money from computer games,not a charity organization.That's all fine with me.The only thing i'm worried about is that a lot of people still do play WoL and they will feel less motivated to buy the expansion if things keep up with being so stale. Fix WoL , theres nothing much into it , a single patch can make things a lot better,but the patch must be spot on.If you dont do that,its just a bad legacy for HotS.
7. My proposed changes :
HSM no longer requires an upgrade
Infested terrans now cost 35 energy,up from 25.
Infested Terran eggs are with the same attack priority as the Infested Terrans themselves.
Infested Terran eggs 75 hp , down from 100
You can no longer neural a Mothership.
Archons (kind of like ultralisks ability) immune to fungal. this is what i wrote.i hope they read.
the problem is then how does zerg stop a archon toilet? lol
the part of "good zerg do x and y" really doesn't matter, it's all theoretical what zerg could do. It's like saying terran can always scan to pick off burrow infestors or perfect split against banelings etc
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EPT
