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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On November 18 2012 22:32 syriuszonito wrote: Great idea, would never think of it. Could you please provide a gm lvl replay of you smashing that all in with 20 lings ? That's exactly how you deal with the all in, you take control of the map then surround is army as it moves out, constantly bating forcefields. | ||
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xPrimuSx
92 Posts
On November 21 2012 03:01 Falling wrote: People say this. But the OP-ness of units wasn't in the ability to lock down entire armies with a couple spells- whether Fungals or FF's. The reason the spells could be so OP is that they were HARD to cast many, many spells in a row. If lockdown in BW had smart-casting, we would have similar frustrations and we wouldn't be so much in awe of the handful of times that someone like Boxer actually did lockdown a fleet of carriers. When these sorts of spells are in every game... The OP-ness of units had more to do with their quick handling, coming on and off the attack rather than the ability to prevent the other side from moving. Yes there was stasis, but it was very late game, huge energy cost, could be EMP'd by Vessels and were pretty expensive. And spreading units was easier in BW so stasis wouldn't necessarily hit that many units unless you didn't bother to spread your tanks. Agreed, all the most OP spells in BW were on effectively T3 units making it difficult to get a bunch of them. In SC2 you have OP spells on T1.5-2 units. As to FF, I had a change in mind inspired by the Oracle. Change FF to an energy based attack like Pulsar Beam. When , FF is enabled, the Sentry's normal attack is replaced by a new one where the Sentry projects a continuous wall of force outward in a cone shape out to range 9, which gets wider the farther it travels. All enemy units caught in the projection are carried along with the energy projection. Units can still move though and can be commanded to move out of the field. Units rendered immobile due to an ability (Siege Mode, Burrow, Fungal) are unaffected by the FF, but the second the ability is cancelled they will be treated as normal. Massive units are completely unaffected by the field and enemy players can use them as shields to allow their non-Massive units to close the distance to the Protoss army by having non-Massive units follow exactly behind the Massive units. With this change, Protoss can no longer reshape the battle field as to their whims, but FF remains very strong defensively. However, I can certainly see this version of FF having stupid amounts of synergy with Colossi. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On November 21 2012 05:08 Targe wrote: That's exactly how you deal with the all in, you take control of the map then surround is army as it moves out, constantly bating forcefields. Do you know he was being sarcastic ? 20 lings is a piece of cake. You'd be dreaming if you think it's more than enough to take forceields off. :/ hell I wouldn't even throw a single one if i had a few zealots with +1 attack. Works like a charm. | ||
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YumYumGranola
Canada344 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:19 xPrimuSx wrote: Agreed, all the most OP spells in BW were on effectively T3 units making it difficult to get a bunch of them. In SC2 you have OP spells on T1.5-2 units. As to FF, I had a change in mind inspired by the Oracle. Change FF to an energy based attack like Pulsar Beam. When , FF is enabled, the Sentry's normal attack is replaced by a new one where the Sentry projects a continuous wall of force outward in a cone shape out to range 9, which gets wider the farther it travels. All enemy units caught in the projection are carried along with the energy projection. Units can still move though and can be commanded to move out of the field. Units rendered immobile due to an ability (Siege Mode, Burrow, Fungal) are unaffected by the FF, but the second the ability is cancelled they will be treated as normal. Massive units are completely unaffected by the field and enemy players can use them as shields to allow their non-Massive units to close the distance to the Protoss army by having non-Massive units follow exactly behind the Massive units. With this change, Protoss can no longer reshape the battle field as to their whims, but FF remains very strong defensively. However, I can certainly see this version of FF having stupid amounts of synergy with Colossi. I wasn't specifically discussing FF's comparison to BW spells, Stop thinking about spells, this is much more general than that. What I was talking about was a general idea that each race had very different units and required specific types of micros to beat each other. Whether or not an a-moved army A can beat a-moved army B is totally irrelevant, since at any meaningful level of play neither player will be a-moving. FF offers an awesome way to make battles more than just an army value v. army value clash. As Morrow pointed out, when Zerg players experimented with drops & burrowed movement, initially they had great success vs. FF. Now that it appears the situation has stabilized and Toss again has the upper hand, I think instead of nerfing FF what we should do is buff those spells that allowed Zerg to fight against FF well. Make it a (how well you FF vs. how well I drop/burrow micro) challenge and that will be much more fun and interesting than a brawl to a draw unit AI battle. This has nothing to do with auto-casting or even spells. I just think that as a general rule that instead of nerfing things we should be buffing it's counters. Otherwise the differences between the races will become much less pronounced, and a lot of that appeal will leave the game. | ||
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TimKim0713
Korea (South)221 Posts
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
make FF uncastable on top of the units. Thats the best solution. Period. Reasoning. FF will become more of a strategic element, highly depending on positioning aspect, rather than being stun-like spell. | ||
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yrt123
Singapore1246 Posts
That said, before crunching out the math I was thinking no way destructible FFs would help in anyway especially how it might bring us back to the age of 4gate PvP. I think perhaps destructible FFs with the hp and armor tweaked to account for the dps a 4gate player will have at the time of attack it could be a good way of stopping the immortal/sentry all in. 900 HP 6 Armor(arbitrary number, you can come up with a better one if you're not satisfied) and not armored type (psionic mayb?) would allow 20 +0 roaches to kill a ff in 10 seconds(still not good enough imo) and not allow a 4gate player with these compositions(1z2s 1z6s 3z8s 5z10s etc) to kill a FF in less than 15 seconds. The main idea behind the health and armor of the FF is to allow roaches and pretty much only roaches to be the only t1 units that can kill FFs fast enough. Not sure if stargate openers can defend 4gate with a limit to the Forcefield's usefulness though. Anyways its up to Blizzard and so far DB(? or someone else) said they're not gonna try to change the sentry immortal all in and are gonna leave it as is. So yea unless Parting has just too much soul and keep pwning zergs left and right with the wonwonwon we probably won't see Blizz pay much attention to it. Still think the main problem lies with the WG mechanic and thats where they should try to start balancing/changing the design. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On November 21 2012 12:16 RaiZ wrote: Do you know he was being sarcastic ? 20 lings is a piece of cake. You'd be dreaming if you think it's more than enough to take forceields off. :/ hell I wouldn't even throw a single one if i had a few zealots with +1 attack. Works like a charm. It's completely obvious he's being sarcastic, but the best way to deal with the all in is to force him to burn forcefields away from your natural, 20 lings obviously isn't going to do it, that's an exaggeration by the first guy. | ||
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slytown
Korea (South)1411 Posts
We need more well laid out arguments for changes like Morrows, QXC's ghost nerf post, etc. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On November 21 2012 18:06 Targe wrote: It's completely obvious he's being sarcastic, but the best way to deal with the all in is to force him to burn forcefields away from your natural, 20 lings obviously isn't going to do it, that's an exaggeration by the first guy. What do you suggest then ? Cauz 20 lings is already 10 drones down the drain. I'm not sure what we're taking the 3rd base for... Since we're hardly having more than 10 drones on the 3rd by the 8th min mark, i don't see any point in taking it since you'll need like 40 lings to make them waste all their sentries' energy. You may have 40 lings by the 10-11 min mark, but that'd mean you guessed the strat correctly. Which means wasting 100-200 minerals for suiciding 1/2 overlords and 2 larvaes. And we're still not sure to have scouted the base entirely. See ? It's really a pain in the ass to play a ZvP from the Z's perspective as well. On November 21 2012 15:38 bokeevboke wrote: I wrote it before and say it again: make FF uncastable on top of the units. Thats the best solution. Period. Reasoning. FF will become more of a strategic element, highly depending on positioning aspect, rather than being stun-like spell. No. Simply no. That would make the sentries useless. It's already hard for the protoss to pay attention to the army when we're not watching them. Zerglings are fast, one surround and you can pretty much say gg already. Sorry but that's definitely not the best solution. Far from it even. | ||
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Cutlery
Norway565 Posts
For now, I feel they work ZvP, or are much more toned down than they used to. But with infestor nerf there's a real risk they will once again dominate from early to late game. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On November 21 2012 23:18 RaiZ wrote: No. Simply no. That would make the sentries useless. It's already hard for the protoss to pay attention to the army when we're not watching them. Zerglings are fast, one surround and you can pretty much say gg already. Sorry but that's definitely not the best solution. Far from it even. Just want to add that it'd also put Protoss on EVEN MORE of a knife edge with regard to holding any kind of early attack. As it stands if the Protoss is a fraction of a second late they can still save themselves and only let a couple of marines/roaches/zerglings/whatever get into their base. If you can't cast FF on top of units then Protoss instantly becomes the race where if you don't play absolutely perfectly in the early game you die to any kind of pressure because there will be no way to delay the attack once it has started. At all. | ||
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NEEDZMOAR
Sweden1277 Posts
MorroW is right, this is exactly the way I and so many others feel when we play ZvP, every unit except for corruptor infestor is useless and makes me lose. Im so glad a professional player is talking about this. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On November 22 2012 02:02 NEEDZMOAR wrote: MorroW is right, this is exactly the way I and so many others feel when we play ZvP, every unit except for corruptor infestor is useless and makes me lose. Roach? | ||
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Bosko
United States155 Posts
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On November 18 2012 21:45 randoomguy wrote: welcome to tvz for a terran player User was warned for this post This is obviously a poorly written post, but I feel like this guy has a point. Even back when Terran was "OP," TvZ often came down to "Does the Terran micro well" and not "Does the Zerg micro well," because if the Terran doesn't micro well, the a-moving banelings will crush most of them followed up by the clean-up crew Muta/Zerglings. Of course, both sides need macro well and hit proper timings, but when you get into the actual battle, the Zerg doesn't have to do anything compared to the Terran. I was playing StarCraft since the release and I eventually quit because Blizzard kept burying non-pro-Korean-Terrans in layers of nerfs, making TvZ and TvP almost impossible if you aren't Mvp. I haven't played StarCraft 2 in a while but yeah, Zerg is designed so that if your opponent messes up his micro, you win, and if he doesn't go write on forums until Blizzard makes it impossible to lose. That's StarCraft 2 WoL for you. | ||
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ZergChief
Canada5 Posts
On November 22 2012 10:37 The Final Boss wrote: This is obviously a poorly written post, but I feel like this guy has a point. Even back when Terran was "OP," TvZ often came down to "Does the Terran micro well" and not "Does the Zerg micro well," because if the Terran doesn't micro well, the a-moving banelings will crush most of them followed up by the clean-up crew Muta/Zerglings. Of course, both sides need macro well and hit proper timings, but when you get into the actual battle, the Zerg doesn't have to do anything compared to the Terran. I was playing StarCraft since the release and I eventually quit because Blizzard kept burying non-pro-Korean-Terrans in layers of nerfs, making TvZ and TvP almost impossible if you aren't Mvp. I haven't played StarCraft 2 in a while but yeah, Zerg is designed so that if your opponent messes up his micro, you win, and if he doesn't go write on forums until Blizzard makes it impossible to lose. That's StarCraft 2 WoL for you. You obviously played the game at a very very low level. Do you realize what happens when you A move ling bane into marine tank? A good Zerg had to split the bane lings as they move in and make sure the lings didn't clump onto single targets. Maybe not as quite as intensive as the marine split, but it was definitely not A moving. Not to mention setting flanks if possible, ect. Also, the marine tank timing worked in such a way that Zerg was cornered into their base during that meta game, so Zerg had to constantly fly Mutas around while cutting reinforcements and attempting to pick up tanks while macroing and building up enough counter attacking units for a very clutch engagement. Clutch because if Zerg messed up the battle, a small group of marines left with the medivacs can cause irreversible damage. You had to sweep the Terran nearly completely clean or risk end up losing to a tiny group of medi-op heal. Infestor really changed the matchup for sure, but for you to argue that Terran was harder to play back then is ridiculous. Zerg scouting was nearly impossible back then. Overlords never made it into their base if they had a 1-2 marines on the parameter and any kind of early game all in or mid game all in was very difficult to stop as scouting was so limited and queens weren't half as good without their range. With the faster bunkers and smaller maps, it was damn hard to stop any kind of proxy cheese as well, 2 raxes almost always guaranteed a good chance to win the game outright. You were just bad back then. | ||
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Bahajinbo
Germany488 Posts
But if you look at the use of forcefields, it can negate any micro in offensive situations which is a big problem. That's one of the reasons why I don't like PvP or 2vs2 games with Protoss. They just forcefield you like crazy in offensive situations and seperate your army. It would be great to limit the sentrys only to a defensive purpose but it isn't possible. | ||
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Myrddraal
Australia937 Posts
I think the best option I have heard would be to give forcefields health. But this don't really fix the fact that Protoss armies would then be steamrolled once the forcefields are destroyed (in both PvZ and PvT). Meaning we would probably need to buff gateway units, which then makes warpgate timings too strong... it just doesn't seem like it works out in the end. Another option I have seen that seems reasonable is giving sentries a cooldown on forcefield, this should retain Sentries defensive utility while dampening their aggressive all-in potential (forcefields would be less spammable and you would need more sentries for the current effect). But this doesn't account for Protoss problems with lategame Zerg, so if that was solved I think this would be a perfect solution. | ||
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Sakray
France2198 Posts
The actual problem is that without forcefields Protoss are just gonna die to everything early game/any zerg composition. Blizzard designed protoss to rely extremely heavily on it, without ff it would just be hard like hell to win. | ||
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