EPTIt probably wont fix the issues at all, but its a start and protoss will still have their forcefields for defensive purposes.
A fundamental issue about forcefield - Page 24
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Snake.69
Canada140 Posts
It probably wont fix the issues at all, but its a start and protoss will still have their forcefields for defensive purposes. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On November 20 2012 08:48 Snake.69 wrote: I just had an idea; make it so you cant shoot ranged attacks across forcefields, besides maybe spells such as storm or fungals... Youll still be able to kill the trapped units in the front, but you cant kill units that you forcefield trap with like 10 forcefields. It probably wont fix the issues at all, but its a start and protoss will still have their forcefields for defensive purposes. Or give forcefield to the oracle instead of time warp and then give time warp to the sentry. (terrible idea probably) | ||
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mission2344
1 Post
http://redd.it/13hekk | ||
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Purple Haze
United Kingdom200 Posts
On November 20 2012 05:04 Plansix wrote: Agreed. Parting and Rain are two of the best protoss in the world. The fact that Parting created an extremely refined, sharp and deadly all-in that to punish the greed of zerg is nothing to complain about. The fact that he was able to do it three times in a row is the fault of his opponent. While other whine about balance and game design, Partings and Rain refine builds down to a razors edge and win OSL and BWC. The problem is that you can have a strong suspicion it's coming, scout it early, do everything correctly from that point on to try and deal with it, and still get crushed if the protoss micros correctly. It's not a lot of fun to play a game where the outcome is overwhelmingly in the hands of your opponent. This was all made pretty clear in the OP. If you come back saying that this is how the lategame feels for protoss then fine, I can accept that, but everyone is screaming for a change to the late game. | ||
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cozzE
Australia357 Posts
On November 18 2012 22:02 Deckkie wrote: This is my idea, but I could be totally wrong. Tier 1 Protoss cant be made stronger because of the warp in mechanic. They dont have a attackers disadvantage in the early game, because of this their units cannot roughly equal the strength of Terran or Zerg early game. If they were the same strength, Terran and maybe Zerg, wouldnt be able to ever tech-up because of the possible 4-gate all-in. Instead, Protoss has the force field, it becomes effective a little later in the game, and gives Protoss a roughly equally strong Tier1 army. The proposition is now: If you want to change Protoss Tier1, you first have to change the warp in mechanic. Really good post I feel. I know the balance team really don't want to get close to this one but Protoss tier 1 needs a good looking at - as does the warpgate mechanic. It's either mind-bogglingly strong or just piss weak and dies to anything. I still believe this game would be better without force field. | ||
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memcpy
United States459 Posts
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ke_ivan
Singapore374 Posts
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Ossan
14 Posts
1. Gateway units are relatively expensive 2. Gateway abilties (Blink, Charge) are farther up the tech tree 3. Protoss needs Hallucination (ability and the energy) or T2 for vision (observer, phoenix) These 3 reasons make controlling the map, harassing, and defending more significant investments for Protoss. So going back to my earlier post, if you want to remove FF without nerfing T or Z in some ways 1. Give Sentries a "sensor tower" like passive ability; then you will know when to hallucinate, warp in, or pull back units. 2. Give Zealots the Charge movement speed off the bat (not the ability, just movement speed) so they can react. 3. Put Charge and Blink on the Cyber Core, stick air upgrades on the Forge or Twilight. If you do these 3 things, at the very least it will be harder to execute cannon rushes and proxies; but I think the overall early/mid/late games will improve as well. | ||
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iDrone
United States176 Posts
My issue with forcefields is that zerg always has to be on the lookout. I have to prepare well in advance to stop the immortal/sentry all in. It is one of the hardest things to stop at the Grandmaster level. Even in the widest part of the map, and trying to flank, I have to rely on the protoss messing up. Generally what P does when he sees me flank, is throw done a wall of FF on one side, and then tries to kill my flanking army by itself. Due to bad map layouts, it is extremely easy for the protoss to do that. If zerg loses 8+ roaches for free, the immortal/sentry all in is near impossible to stop at the top level, granted the P advances the attack immediately. Thats not even the bad part though, because there is no reason that the protoss has to attack. I have scouted immortals and mass sentry, so P knows zerg is preparing. If the all in is hard to stop, imagine trying to deny the P from a 3rd base is incredibly harder. They take a 3rd base, and just attack a few minutes later, usually wiping me out without any chance at all. So i either play very greedy and don't prepare for the initial attack, or I over-prepare and die to the 3rd base timing. All while protoss has the observer that zerg has big trouble stopping. I feel like a good protoss can easily beat a zerg with the correct scouting ( some korean P have 80% wr vs korean zergs ) zergs have to rely on unusual tactics, and trying to trick their opponent.. which hey, isn't that bad I guess? But not all of us are koreans with 300apm, I myself only have 170 and often die to lesser players, even when I know what they are doing. The game is meh, dota 2 is much better competitively anyways. | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
I'd be in favor of removing it and making Gateway units stronger (with no warpgate, of course) but I believe this will not happen so maybe sentries should have 100 maximium energy.. not more. The 3 immortals-sentry all-in is pretty good because lots of those sentries are already full in energy (or almost)... reduce that maximum and you have let sitting in base and waiting for 200 energy. | ||
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Raid
United States398 Posts
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Purple Haze
United Kingdom200 Posts
On November 20 2012 10:52 ke_ivan wrote: This will sound naive from a terran player, but wouldn't the simple answer be baneling drops or mutalisk harrass? It's impossible to get that tech out in time unless you rush it to the extent that you die to a range of other 2 base allins. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
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orBitual
United States96 Posts
On November 20 2012 12:27 Shiori wrote: I'm going to sa it yet again since only one guy offered a direct response (which made no sense to me on account of the GSL proving it wrong): Parting, Rain, and Creator beating the likes of Vortix, Sen, and Suppy is not anything out of the ordinary. I have no idea why people are making balance claims on such a basis, especially someone so esteemed as Morrow. Maybe this quotation from the original post will help explain why people don't care to respond to your (discussion stifling) non sequitur: "i want a zerg with great micro control to find ways to deal with the forcefield and i would love if the protoss army wouldnt completely get rolled without relying on forcefield. it is very uninteresting at times in these top level pvz games perfect forcefields keep the protoss army invournable and as soon as they run out - the toss dies." It's not about balance. | ||
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TheDraken
United States640 Posts
On November 20 2012 12:27 Shiori wrote: I'm going to sa it yet again since only one guy offered a direct response (which made no sense to me on account of the GSL proving it wrong): Parting, Rain, and Creator beating the likes of Vortix, Sen, and Suppy is not anything out of the ordinary. I have no idea why people are making balance claims on such a basis, especially someone so esteemed as Morrow. this has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with game design. it really doesn't matter what players you want to bring up. forcefield is bad because it's such a huge crutch for protoss. try playing without it. you can't. | ||
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VTPerfect
United States487 Posts
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templar rage
United States2509 Posts
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Purple Haze
United Kingdom200 Posts
On November 20 2012 12:27 Shiori wrote: I'm going to sa it yet again since only one guy offered a direct response (which made no sense to me on account of the GSL proving it wrong): Parting, Rain, and Creator beating the likes of Vortix, Sen, and Suppy is not anything out of the ordinary. I have no idea why people are making balance claims on such a basis, especially someone so esteemed as Morrow. The GSL didn't prove anything wrong, PartinG tried the build once, executed it badly, and lost. You're not really listening, people aren't saying anything about balance, and they're not basing anything on this weekend. They're saying anytime the outcome is totally in the hands of one player that's a bad situation. That's not saying that every time someone does this build they'll win, it's saying that if they execute it well enough it doesn't matter what the zerg does, they'll still lose. | ||
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Ossan
14 Posts
On November 20 2012 11:00 Ossan wrote: FF is T1 primarily because 1. Gateway units are relatively expensive 2. Gateway abilties (Blink, Charge) are farther up the tech tree 3. Protoss needs Hallucination (ability and the energy) or T2 for vision (observer, phoenix) These 3 reasons make controlling the map, harassing, and defending more significant investments for Protoss. So going back to my earlier post, if you want to remove FF without nerfing T or Z in some ways 1. Give Sentries a "sensor tower" like passive ability; then you will know when to hallucinate, warp in, or pull back units. 2. Give Zealots the Charge movement speed off the bat (not the ability, just movement speed) so they can react. 3. Put Charge and Blink on the Cyber Core, stick air upgrades on the Forge or Twilight. If you do these 3 things, at the very least it will be harder to execute cannon rushes and proxies; but I think the overall early/mid/late games will improve as well. I forgot two pretty important reasons for having T1 FF and FF in general 4. Terran can raise supply depots and other structures, and Zerg can move Spine and Spore crawlers for wall-ins Protoss would need something like phasable/warpable photon cannons to prevent harass; hellions, lings, especially banelings would be "gg" 5. So many banelings.... You would definitely need Blink Stalkers ASAP or Sentries with enough Hallucinations to absorb damage. Or you would need enough warp prisms for your units and amazing micro. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On November 20 2012 12:47 TheDraken wrote: this has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with game design. it really doesn't matter what players you want to bring up. forcefield is bad because it's such a huge crutch for protoss. try playing without it. you can't. Hmm, don't know that I agree. When the OP prefaces these games and refers to them as the reason he is posting, it pays to look at the games in question. It seems to me that this is yet another thread (well disguised this time) on Protoss balance/design/qq etc (comparable to all the threads gone before with many similar "solutions" offered). Morrow may believe that his shit does not stink when it comes to these sorts of discussions. Unfortunately, just like everybody else, it does. | ||
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