EPTWell, thinking back to the first Beta when Protoss weren't very good at FF's, I'd imagine stim timings would become quite powerful. Zealot and Stalker would probably have to be compensated somehow- without in turn making Warp-Gate timings too powerful.
A fundamental issue about forcefield - Page 23
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Falling
Canada11349 Posts
Well, thinking back to the first Beta when Protoss weren't very good at FF's, I'd imagine stim timings would become quite powerful. Zealot and Stalker would probably have to be compensated somehow- without in turn making Warp-Gate timings too powerful. | ||
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
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MinimalistSC2
United States121 Posts
Actually, I enjoy FF because they introduce a great dynamic to the game where it depends on where and when you fight, similar to stopping a terran siege push. It also punishes "blobbing" and not spreading units. And it requires fast thinking and reflexes by protoss. THis way the game doesn't come down to just BO, macro ability, and timing. Reducing the time FF is active is the only plausible answer to your issue, and I think it would be a great change for the better. As a top 8 masters Zerg 3 seasons now, What holds me back from GM is protoss FF based all ins. but its not that i think FF is broken, I understand that pros can deal with it and its only my own shortcomings that limit me. However. FF is extremely strong. With the ability to warp in, its possible to perpetually block a ramp with a single FF. FF can completely negate zerg units from attacking or running away, really its the equivalent of a (much) harder to execute fungal spell, that can also deny the ability to attack, along with move. So, regardless of how difficult it is to execute, it is executable. Toss has no problem getting up ample sentries for ample FF. The issue at hand is that they get such a powerful spell so early on. I think that sentries were originally designed for early and late game; respectively, for holding ramps vs rushes and used in mass late game to carve up wide open battle spaces. With the advent of FFE and mid game pushes, toss gets that "late game" mass of sentries well before zerg gets mid game tech. So the problem here is that the duration of the FF spell, designed to hold a ramp for another warp in, or to endure the length of a large late game battle, is introduced to the mid game. As a zerg I feel like FF simply lasts too long. Toss is (and should be) able to cut off and neutralize parts of my army with FF, or box in his own army to defend vs lings. But the amount of FF energy available due to FFE means that Toss can "Spam" FF to trap large chunks of my army into tiny spaces where they cant even move around, and then just sit there and pick off all of them, utilizing just one round of FF. Enter the FF duration nerf. with a duration nerf, toss still has the ability to section off troops, putting FF behind and infront of and to the sides of troops, as well as use them defensively. BUT, now toss most likely has to spend a little bit more FF energy as the initial FF wears off to either ensure complete losses on my part, or no losses on his part. Now battles will not be so one sided based solely on a toss player's micro ability. Or rather one or two battles still can be, but because of the chance for extra FF needed, the continuous battles will not be as one sided. Meaning that Zerg is not only rewarded more for engaging the toss push much like a siege push, distracting, threatening along the way across the map, etc, but is also less liable to get screwed over completely if toss manages to trap and kill a bunch of units for "free", and still has plenty of FF energy for other battles. In overview, Energy for FF is not increased, so toss can still throw up critical FF on warp in, or with very low energy. FF size is not changed, which for obv reasons is pretty necessary to maintain balance. (pretty much ramps, but other things too) FF cast range is not reduced, which would make inf even more of a hard coutner to FF and introduce many issues. FF time duration is reduced so that IF the toss deems it valuable, he must spend additional FF to abuse trapping techniques, extended ramp holds, etc. but in a pinch, Toss can still execute any and all of the same actions as he would be able to before the nerf with the same amount of energy. The alternative to this is channeling the spell, which would be terrible because sometimes FF is used to retreat. I also have no idea how much the duration should be changed by, I only just came up with this on the spot. Hopefully this post is considered, thank you. | ||
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malaan
365 Posts
On November 20 2012 04:02 MinimalistSC2 wrote: The bold is my suggestion for FF change. Actually, I enjoy FF because they introduce a great dynamic to the game where it depends on where and when you fight, similar to stopping a terran siege push. It also punishes "blobbing" and not spreading units. And it requires fast thinking and reflexes by protoss. THis way the game doesn't come down to just BO, macro ability, and timing. Reducing the time FF is active is the only plausible answer to your issue, and I think it would be a great change for the better. As a top 8 masters Zerg 3 seasons now, What holds me back from GM is protoss FF based all ins. but its not that i think FF is broken, I understand that pros can deal with it and its only my own shortcomings that limit me. However. FF is extremely strong. With the ability to warp in, its possible to perpetually block a ramp with a single FF. FF can completely negate zerg units from attacking or running away, really its the equivalent of a (much) harder to execute fungal spell, that can also deny the ability to attack, along with move. So, regardless of how difficult it is to execute, it is executable. Toss has no problem getting up ample sentries for ample FF. The issue at hand is that they get such a powerful spell so early on. I think that sentries were originally designed for early and late game; respectively, for holding ramps vs rushes and used in mass late game to carve up wide open battle spaces. With the advent of FFE and mid game pushes, toss gets that "late game" mass of sentries well before zerg gets mid game tech. So the problem here is that the duration of the FF spell, designed to hold a ramp for another warp in, or to endure the length of a large late game battle, is introduced to the mid game. As a zerg I feel like FF simply lasts too long. Toss is (and should be) able to cut off and neutralize parts of my army with FF, or box in his own army to defend vs lings. But the amount of FF energy available due to FFE means that Toss can "Spam" FF to trap large chunks of my army into tiny spaces where they cant even move around, and then just sit there and pick off all of them, utilizing just one round of FF. Enter the FF duration nerf. with a duration nerf, toss still has the ability to section off troops, putting FF behind and infront of and to the sides of troops, as well as use them defensively. BUT, now toss most likely has to spend a little bit more FF energy as the initial FF wears off to either ensure complete losses on my part, or no losses on his part. Now battles will not be so one sided based solely on a toss player's micro ability. Or rather one or two battles still can be, but because of the chance for extra FF needed, the continuous battles will not be as one sided. Meaning that Zerg is not only rewarded more for engaging the toss push much like a siege push, distracting, threatening along the way across the map, etc, but is also less liable to get screwed over completely if toss manages to trap and kill a bunch of units for "free", and still has plenty of FF energy for other battles. In overview, Energy for FF is not increased, so toss can still throw up critical FF on warp in, or with very low energy. FF size is not changed, which for obv reasons is pretty necessary to maintain balance. (pretty much ramps, but other things too) FF cast range is not reduced, which would make inf even more of a hard coutner to FF and introduce many issues. FF time duration is reduced so that IF the toss deems it valuable, he must spend additional FF to abuse trapping techniques, extended ramp holds, etc. but in a pinch, Toss can still execute any and all of the same actions as he would be able to before the nerf with the same amount of energy. The alternative to this is channeling the spell, which would be terrible because sometimes FF is used to retreat. I also have no idea how much the duration should be changed by, I only just came up with this on the spot. Hopefully this post is considered, thank you. Take it to the blizzard forums and hots beta forums bro. No one is gonna read that wall of text after 200+ pages of other people doing the same. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
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JKM
Denmark419 Posts
--> Buffing other gw units (eg. zealot / stalker) causes problems for terran and revives blinkstalker allin vs zerg. --> Making forcefield work only defensive (however possible) causes zerg supermacro mode, because they no longer have to defend against a potential timing. --> Outright removing forcefields causes various reactionary early and midgame timings to just kill the protoss if he wanted a third base. I could be wrong about the flaws of various solutions, but overall I think we should wait for Hots and see how it works when zergs have a stronger midgame army. If we don't want to wait for Hots I think buffing hydras could be a solution, they'd give stronger attacking power, they have a longer range (not sure it's long enough to truly shoot over forcefields, but meh), anti-air (warp prism can die), and they're not armored! Examples of stuff that could be buffed about it: - Range buff (remove range upgrade, make this range the new standard). - Slight HP increase (without looking at numbers, something that would make them survive 1 more hit from stalkers/zealots), since they would largely replace roaches in the midgame. - Something else. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
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Tommie
China658 Posts
Force field is pretty ok but it's too strong against tier-1 zerg because of zerg's low range/melee units. Units with a longer range aren't as weak against force fields. I would like to see force fields last a little bit shorter and perhaps be smaller in one direction but I don't have any fundamental problems with it. I think they need a slight nerf so they don't determine the outcome of battles the way they do now. For TvP, reducing the casting range of forcefields and decreasing it's size in one direction would help dramatically. By that I mean making it more of a wall instead of a field. This would help because a wall is narrow and units from behind the wall can still shoot over it. Also, there is more room to micro. Instead of being squeezed together the units are just being cut off. Reducing the casting range would make sentries snipeable by, for example a quick stim of a few marines. This would make toss earlygame a bit weaker but that can be compensated by tweaking a few stats slightly ( such as sentry damage ). This really won't make gateway rushes too strong I think, especially when you do what's sane and make warpin time increase with distance from nexus or cybercore. As for zerg, switching the roach and the hydra is the best thing you can do. The inreased range would work wonders against force fields and a tier 2 roach with a lot of hp and a big model size would be a lot more interesting than the tier 1 "mass me im cheap" roach. The hydra would give way to swarm hosts with roaches to cover their movement across the map once big aoe hits the field. As for infestors, the problem is simple. Root and aoe should not be combined in spell. And a root spell should be limited to ground units. I don't care about the stats of fungal, whether it's balanced or not. It's the principle of root and aoe being one spell. Maelstrom + storm was the most exiting thing in the game we all loved. It was rare, a big investment and it was avoidable by good muta micro and being on the ball with your mutas. Fungal is just shit and boring. I don't care if they nerf it to balance it. Root and AOE shouldn't be one spell. End of of discussion. The infestor should get a spell to slow down movement+ attack speed of ground units which covers TERRAIN and does not stick to units. Then another unit must get an AOE spell. Or the AOE spell has to be researched on the infestor. Personally, I'd prefer another spellcaster. The reduced attack speed + slow will definitely affect stalker balls that hit before hive enough to replace fungal as it stands now. Zerg still has a zoning unit that can buy time and set traps, which is in my opinion what an infestor should be. Chain fungals are over. Roaches can enter the field during lair tech and they will protect vital units soak the first rounds of damage while the infestors and swarm hosts set up. Banelings are a threat again. Zerg relies on infestors because it's other midgame units are too crap. That's the problem. Zerg's other midgame units don't make much sense. Zerg right now is a race that tries to survive the early and midgame with as few larvae as possible in order to buy time until infestors are out. Only at tier 3 zerg units become interesting ( and too strong, too turtly, too boring in combat. Not imba, boring ). The economic fundamentals of zerg only stimulate zerg to take that path. Zerg right now is all about defending with as few larvae as possible ( stupid queens ) and nothing happens until late lair tech with 3 saturated bases vs 2 for the other race. Zerg's economy is already geared toward the late game, so are the units. Only when the infestor hits the field things become interesting. Oh, and the colossus should be slow and should stop before it shoots and charge the shot so it can be dodged. Range = 8 or 7 no range increase research. Cliff walk is researchable. Siege tank get more damage please but slower siege time and it should scale better with upgrades. Immortal please increase shield recharge time by a factor of 2. And reduce it's damage output. It's ridiculous. It's an immortal that means it doesn't die, it doesnt mean it rapes everything armored. Mules can't oversaturate a base anymore. And please give terran a lategame instead of +3+3 MMM + support. That means buffing the raven and changing the thor. I like the idea of a unit with a weak AOE air attack and a strong ground attack but the thor is just kiddo game design. It's cool when you first see it and then it's just big and generic and dull. A 3/4 supply unit with some kind of useful special ability would be nice. Like being able to carry 2 scv's with him, but it would have a relatively small amount of hitpoints. Mothership core please shield battery. Please. And warpgate warp time increases with distance from cybercore. Now the game is awesome. That's it for tonight. | ||
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Mithridates
United States446 Posts
Frankly I'm not sure why Code S Koreans taking down foreigners is any sort of convincing indication that Forcefield is a problem. It's an uninspired, boring mechanic, but it's far less of a problem than Fungal or BL/Infestor is. [/QUOTE/] I agree with this completely. Why is it that the better players winning (Koreans) beating inferior players (foriegners) a sign that PvZ is in favor of protoss. Yes, its silly and frustrating for Zerg but I dont think anyone can say that Suppy, Sen and co. are better than the likes of Rain or Parting. | ||
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
Remove forcefield from the game and make it a slow field. Buff protoss gateway units, increase warp gate cool down, decrease build time in normal gateway slightly. Remove colossus. They blow. Replace with Reaver. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 20 2012 00:13 Shiori wrote: Frankly I'm not sure why Code S Koreans taking down foreigners is any sort of convincing indication that Forcefield is a problem. It's an uninspired, boring mechanic, but it's far less of a problem than Fungal or BL/Infestor is. [/QUOTE/] I agree with this completely. Why is it that the better players winning (Koreans) beating inferior players (foriegners) a sign that PvZ is in favor of protoss. Yes, its silly and frustrating for Zerg but I dont think anyone can say that Suppy, Sen and co. are better than the likes of Rain or Parting. Agreed. Parting and Rain are two of the best protoss in the world. The fact that Parting created an extremely refined, sharp and deadly all-in that to punish the greed of zerg is nothing to complain about. The fact that he was able to do it three times in a row is the fault of his opponent. While other whine about balance and game design, Partings and Rain refine builds down to a razors edge and win OSL and BWC. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
It seems yet another Protoss qq - although well veiled. Parting and Rain are streaks ahead of Sen - no disrespect to Sen. (I'm also not surprised to see WG being brought out of the ground in the thread either. We'll never be rid of that one...) | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
If we take TvP out of the picture (I really think this matchup needs a big makeover) and have the reaver in its place, protoss dont suddenly need to rely on mass FFs anymore because the reavers can dent big holes into the roach compositions that murder protoss ground units. Obviously things like FF duration (+ on top of having hitpoints) and the ability to warp in a gazillion units from the warp prism needs to be nerfed incase you go for a reaver harass playstyle w/ sentries. And the immortal sentry all in needs to be nerfed (or zerg buffed here somehow e.g. hydra) along with the BL/infestor composition. Its exactly like the 1-1-1 in the sense that a player can do it over and over and still win. Unlike 1-1-1 the immortal sentry all in is up to the protoss to make the mistake, i.e. its his game to lose which is what Morrow is getting at due to the nature of FFs. | ||
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Serthius
Samoa226 Posts
Two things can happen in any given fight: a.) The protoss messes up the force fields and loses, in which case I think: "Well, that sucked. He only lost because he messed up his FF". b.) The protoss places perfect force fields and wins, in which case I think: "Well, that wasn't very fair. The zerg couldn't do much." Neither case is very entertaining. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 20 2012 06:46 aZealot wrote: Not sure what to make of the OP, although I have yet to read all of it - will do so a little later. (I'm at work, atm.) It seems yet another Protoss qq - although well veiled. Parting and Rain are streaks ahead of Sen - no disrespect to Sen. (I'm also not surprised to see WG being brought out of the ground in the thread either. We'll never be rid of that one...) Every time protoss wins and there is some sentry based aggression, this thread will return. Or its sister thread, the fundamental problem with warpgate. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
Thank you, zerg player | ||
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GeneralSnoop
United States142 Posts
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Bellazuk
Canada146 Posts
People can argue and say well, toss upgrades are important and that's where if you slip off you lose. That's wrong, I've seen many many pros with nexus full energy cuz they slipped off but race allow them to. Catch up the macro by adding 5 more gates and wap more units, just as if it was really difficult to play like other races are. Solution : Buff gateways, nerf warp gate. I'd really love to see units like thor, colo, broodlords, units that are game changer when you have too much of them and just a-move your opponent. That's silly, I think everyrace should have a t1 and t2 new unit and that would make the whole game very dynamic, new cheses, new meta games, new strategy. I don't know why blizz wants Z to have more t3 units when it doesn't matter because we already had what was needed to win games as T3 but nothing to win as T2 ( ZvP) | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
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