EPTA fundamental issue about forcefield - Page 21
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QzYSc2
Netherlands281 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 19 2012 14:27 insanet wrote: Concept: 1. Bring Back Shield Battery, in any form, building or spell from nexus,(http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_battery), this will give defenders advantage to protoss. 2. Buff Zealot Speed. maybe be inmune to concusive too. 3.Give Time warp to sentry. remove Forcefield. Hm while I don't think that would be enough of a buff to protoss if you removed FF, time warp would be interesting if it was on the sentry. I kind of like that idea, but I still think toss would need a couple more buffs on gateway units or something to compensate for loss of FF which would be imo the best thing to do. I liked your ideas though, mainly 2/3 though, 1 I'm not sure if it would have that big of an impact or not. | ||
nimdil
Poland3748 Posts
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insanet
Peru439 Posts
On November 19 2012 17:56 nimdil wrote: Isn't the supposed counter to forcefields a tactic? The proper counter to forcefields is to engage/bait in open area so that Protoss player won't have forcefields when the real "engagement" start. That tactic Its getting old already, Sen was trying this against Koreans, most of them didnt get tricked. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
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TargA
Norway204 Posts
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TheSwamp
United States1497 Posts
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TaShadan
Germany1976 Posts
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mathemagician1986
Germany549 Posts
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blug
Australia623 Posts
On November 19 2012 19:30 mathemagician1986 wrote: FFs and Fungals are both terrible design. They completely deny the opponents micro, instead of making it hard. I think Idra's suggestion of making FFs attackable without attack priority (so you have to attack each of them individually) and giving fungal growth a slow down, but not a complete immobility would be an interesting thing to test in the beta. I agree, to be honest, the only reason Protoss stay closeish to a 50% win ratio against Zerg is because they have a really good all in. If they were to nerf fungal, I really think the all in will need a bit of a nerf otherwise I think it will jump from Zerg being a bit to strong into Zerg being a little bit to weak against protoss. Watching the pro scene and even with me in ladder, I've noticed I've got something close to a 35% win rate against protoss who use the all in, but I have around a 70%ish win rate if I get to late game against protoss. I feel if infestors are nerfed I think that I will start having a 50% win ratio late game against protoss while I'll still be stuck with my 35% win rate against protoss Immortal/Sentry all ins (You don't usually have infestors by the time it hits). | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
Getting Dustin Browder and Blizzard to do that would be essentially impossible. It would mean a total redesign of the entire P race. Colossus for example would have to be removed or tweaked along with FF/WGs, because P tier 1 would have to be stronger to compensate for the fact that they cannot produce units as rapidly or aggressively anymore. This means that P could be more aggressive with tier 1 openings, while also taking expansions faster, leading to more economic leads for them. You cannot simply just change such a core and fundamental skill that is basically the crux of a race's entire early to mid game and then decide to leave it at that. Choosing to nerf FF / rework WGs without touching the upper end of P's tech tree would result in complete mayhem (for example, Templars under a no WG tree without a rework of KA would be utterly bad, since you'd have to wait for them build, then to charge up their energy, and then walk them all the way out to the battlefield). You're not thinking of the entire picture, and I don't think Morrow is either. He just is simply seeing that FF is a badly designed spell, and it is unfun. I agree; it is. But the entire race was designed around the presence of FF/WGs in general. You cannot possibly tweak those two without massive overhauls to the entire P race, and we all pretty much know it's not going to happen. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On November 19 2012 21:08 superstartran wrote: You cannot possibly tweak those two without massive overhauls to the entire P race, and we all pretty much know it's not going to happen. Not to make irrelevant the rest of your post, but this is the main issue. These issues are built into the protoss race and you can't band-aid one thing without revamping everything else. If we need to "overhaul" the protoss race as you say and we know Blizzard is dead-set on their vision of Starcraft 2, then these issues are out of our hands and we can only discuss how to deal with them in-game. /I agree with your post | ||
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Deletatron
United States22 Posts
On November 19 2012 16:40 QzYSc2 wrote: when a protoss plays perfect they are unbeatable. but thats usually not within human capabilities (1 phoenix could kill 100+ muta's if micro'd perfect, but you dont see it happen). This isn't true. The person with the mutas could split them up and certainly defeat the phoenix. Even if the phoenix was perfectly microed and could anticipate the mutas changing direction perfectly. | ||
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Enzymatic
Canada1301 Posts
On November 19 2012 16:40 QzYSc2 wrote: already pretty obvious to most people, why forcefield is such a dumb design, and its true that when a protoss plays perfect they are unbeatable. but thats usually not within human capabilities (1 phoenix could kill 100+ muta's if micro'd perfect, but you dont see it happen). Nothing said here makes any sense at all. The same could be said for ANY race, not just protoss. You appear to be quite biased with your tone. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
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Cyrak
Canada536 Posts
On November 19 2012 21:08 superstartran wrote: Guys I hate repeating myself but some of you really need to read. You cannot possibly remove/nerf/tweak FF in any major way without touching Gateway units and WG tech in general. That would mean a total redesign of the early tier 1 of P, which would force a restructuring/tweaking of P's late game which is already strong as it is (it is fairly strong up until it encounters Blord/Infestor). Getting Dustin Browder and Blizzard to do that would be essentially impossible. It would mean a total redesign of the entire P race. Colossus for example would have to be removed or tweaked along with FF/WGs, because P tier 1 would have to be stronger to compensate for the fact that they cannot produce units as rapidly or aggressively anymore. This means that P could be more aggressive with tier 1 openings, while also taking expansions faster, leading to more economic leads for them. You cannot simply just change such a core and fundamental skill that is basically the crux of a race's entire early to mid game and then decide to leave it at that. Choosing to nerf FF / rework WGs without touching the upper end of P's tech tree would result in complete mayhem (for example, Templars under a no WG tree without a rework of KA would be utterly bad, since you'd have to wait for them build, then to charge up their energy, and then walk them all the way out to the battlefield). You're not thinking of the entire picture, and I don't think Morrow is either. He just is simply seeing that FF is a badly designed spell, and it is unfun. I agree; it is. But the entire race was designed around the presence of FF/WGs in general. You cannot possibly tweak those two without massive overhauls to the entire P race, and we all pretty much know it's not going to happen. This guy hit it on the nose. This isn't a new problem. It's something that should have been addressed literally years ago (FF never should have made it out of beta tbh). FF and WG, the two dumbest abilities in the game, are inextricably bound together and a revamp of those would require rebalancing pretty much every unit in the Protoss arsenal. It should happen but it probably won't. edit: This will end up being 'balanced' by map refinements. Finding exactly the right amount of open space in the natural/3rd areas so that more FF is required to accomplish the same thing is the easiest way to break this strategy. It's also why even parting is far from invincible other than perhaps on Ohana. Of course this leads to its own problem, that already exists, which is that what can be done with maps without making them incredibly biased towards a certain race will become increasingly limited. This ain't Brood War kids. | ||
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KingAce
United States471 Posts
Trying to nerf FF means buffing gateway units. Buffing gateway units means, removing warp gates. The solution isn't an easy one. FF are strong within a very special timing that has been figured out by protoss. And this timing needs exact micro to efficiently own at the highest level. Despite how difficult it might be for zergs to deal with, it doesn't change the fact that touching FF negatively impacts the entire protoss race. If you give any care about the game. You would realize that the problem lies with warp gates. These are day 1 problems that anybody with a decent BW background foresaw. We addressed these things day one...but we had a lot of people who thought that we were simply against change and being elitist. The problem is Warpgates...any protoss would tell you that. | ||
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paddyz
Ireland628 Posts
At the same time I would like more micro potential when I am zerg, it seems all you have to do is move as close to the toss as possible and then a move(with the odd bit of focus firing). I preferred it when roaches had less range and you could micro stalkers against them + when zerg players actually made hydras. It was more fun back then. Playing against roach/ling spam into infestor spam into broodlord spam is just boring. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
how about giving the MsC FFs and giving sentrys timewarp? MsC (purify + autoattack) itself already made P a lot safer early game, timewarp on sentrys would make P even more safe. so P could be safe vs early game all ins + have recall to be able to pressure the opponent without any risk while not being able to go mass FF spam allins. if MsC FF would be abused by FF the ramp from main to natural offensively, just make the MsC be attached to the nexus again. this change would also fix the issue that protoss gets an additional deathball spell (no timewarp + FF bullshit: deathball already rapes everything on the ground so T and Z have to go air). | ||
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