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On November 19 2012 14:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 14:14 covetousrat wrote:
Whats with the outcry suddenly when some not so top Zergs lost to some of the best Protosses from Korea? If those zergs were Life, Leenock, then something is wrong. Morrow isn't even complaining about it being OP or not. He is complaining that it results in only the protoss who has to make the micro mistakes. He is saying in pvz (and this is true) zerg doesn't control micro at all because they can't. Once there are FF's it's all up to tosses. If they fuck up they lose their army, if they don't zerg loses their army. It's not very fun because as a zerg you can't control your army and micro it becuase you have to hope toss misses his force fields (for example, doing a 3 pronged attack 1 to the natural, 1 to the third, and 1 more to the natural through a different choke). The zerg is pretty much praying toss doesn't notice and doesn't force field which isn't very fun at all. I do hope people read the OP and not take it as balance whine, it just is boring and I imagine frusterating not only to tosses who accidently mis click, but to zergs who have to rely on the toss fucking up whenever zerg wants to engage the protoss army. The best solution, one that would be harder but better for the game overall would be to remove forcefield and buff toss units so they don't have to rely on it. Of course again this would be really hard to balance correctly thanks to warpgates, so I don't' think this will ever happen.
I remember Jaedong's quote saying he couldn't micro or be aggressive like he used to be and it made me so sad and upset at the same time....when you see good FFs all you can do is die or retreat as zerg. It kills any momentum you have and forces complete passivity while toss does their thing. Then as toss you either push early and kill the zerg with good FFs before they get too many infestors. Maybe get a vortex on their endgame army. It feels like the game is getting more and more "figured out" with the state of BL/infestor and then the immortal/sentry all ins/pushes. PvZ is just a bit too predicable if both players really know the matchup. Even then, if things change FFs and Infestor/BL will always shape the outcome of every game. Even if it doesn't play out in cookie cutter fashion in most games that aren't super all in cheeses before 10 minutes.
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I support the OP analysis.
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On November 19 2012 14:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 14:14 covetousrat wrote:
Whats with the outcry suddenly when some not so top Zergs lost to some of the best Protosses from Korea? If those zergs were Life, Leenock, then something is wrong. Morrow isn't even complaining about it being OP or not. He is complaining that it results in only the protoss who has to make the micro mistakes. He is saying in pvz (and this is true) zerg doesn't control micro at all because they can't. Once there are FF's it's all up to tosses. If they fuck up they lose their army, if they don't zerg loses their army. It's not very fun because as a zerg you can't control your army and micro it becuase you have to hope toss misses his force fields (for example, doing a 3 pronged attack 1 to the natural, 1 to the third, and 1 more to the natural through a different choke). The zerg is pretty much praying toss doesn't notice and doesn't force field which isn't very fun at all. I do hope people read the OP and not take it as balance whine, it just is boring and I imagine frusterating not only to tosses who accidently mis click, but to zergs who have to rely on the toss fucking up whenever zerg wants to engage the protoss army. The best solution, one that would be harder but better for the game overall would be to remove forcefield and buff toss units so they don't have to rely on it. Of course again this would be really hard to balance correctly thanks to warpgates, so I don't' think this will ever happen.
Thanks. It seems that Morrow posted this in HOTS forum. If it's aimed at HOTS, so far the hots games are looking really good in my opinion with more unit choices, ways to survive early game and most importantly larger maps.
Changing it in WOL with 4 months left is way too game breaking. Even if there's 2 years left, removing FF will be a ballsy move.
My 2 cent opinion. Blizzard will leave everything like what it is and focus heavily in balancing hots.
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I think a big fundamental change to forcefield is just one of the many steps SC2 needs right now to improve itself going into Heart of the Swarm, but it's a complaint almost as old as the game is, so I doubt it'll be addressed. I was hoping for something from Blizzard indicating that the current state of gameplay isn't where they'd like it and that a lot of changes were coming to attempt to improve things.
Thus far, they seem relatively content with how the game is played and that's part of the reason I'm not that excited for HotS. Blizzard is playing things way too safe.
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Sen (after taking TOP 4 at BWC):
In the first game, I should have won, but my corruptors which were morphing didn't come out in time. In the second game, I wasn't able to detect his intentions, and in the third game, I scouted his triple immortal, but my roaches were too slow, and I wasn't able to hold it. It was quite a pity, but that's how tournaments are.
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Maybe if the just made the forcefield cost 75 energy that would do quite a lot (imagine 2 ff instead of 4 max from a sentry). Quick and easy fix imo.
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Splitting your units and setting up your flanks is micro too. The Zergs who don't play positional games, loose to good execution. 'Crossing your fingers and hoping for bad forcefields' isn't lack of micro opportunity, its already loosing the initiative.
But to be fair, it is mainly a map issue. The extended corridors on Daybreak make IS timings sick good (while the dead space and cliffs inbetween them make broodlords sick good, but this is another topic!). Ohana is small, with obstructions in front of the 3rd which basically mean that there are only 3 possible flanks at best, and they are stoppable by 4 forcefields each. Stephano set up a sick 3-4 way flank, that ended up completely surrounding - at least 300 degrees - but this was on Antiga. d.Killer goes lings to delay, then floods with roaches. All abuse the fact that toss has to push out with 3 immortals and a load of sentries.
Forcefields are here to stay, they are too integral to all P matchups. Short of completely redesigning warpgate units (and their synergies with robo/SG, and their early game balance vs T and Z), there is nothing to be done.
Besides, HotS units are part of the fix, and IS All-ins will become irrelevant. You can't FF out a stream of locusts forever. And an obs will delay the push by almost a full Zerg inject cycle.
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On November 19 2012 02:50 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 02:32 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 19 2012 02:29 Zenbrez wrote:On November 19 2012 02:24 WhatsInAName wrote:
1.) Once the build is scouted, different action must be taken. Players can't do the same thing every time and expect to win. I see zergs doing the same thing every time and lose. With the infestor/bl late game pvz, protoss players keep doing the same thing and losing. It is mind-numbing to see little creativity. Must players always whine balance?
Take the last game of Sen v. Parting for example. He scouts it and his reaction is very poor.
- He continues to build drones on 3 bases (while his opponent is on 2).
- He waits for his opponent to move out and get in to the perfect position.
- Does absolutely nothing to bait force fields or slow the push down. Nothing to snipe the probe or pylon or a few sentries.
- Doesn't even make an attempt for a surround
All of these things are inexcusable. It's simply mind-numbing as a spectator to see the same pathetic reaction over and over. Stephano is the only one that comes close to handling any of these situations properly. He loses against them from time to time for being stubbornly greedy.
Last week:
"Zerg so easy to play and is OP."
This week:
"Protoss so easy to play and is OP."
What race do you play? Either of them? Have you experienced the build done to you (properly, not some terrible diamond player doing it)? I hope so, you should realize that Sen can't attack. He doesn't have enough to warrant suiciding his army. Throwing 30 lings at the small army while it moves out doesn't kill anything. He HAS to wait for Parting to move across so that he can build a bigger army, let his creep get a bit further out, maybe build a few spines, wait for roach speed or +1, etc. It's not NEARLY as easy as you say it is. If you have experienced it and won, and Morrow said, it's because the protoss fucked up, not because you magically found the solution. Watch how Stephano deals with Protoss. Baiting, sniping, surrounding. It's not always perfect, but after watching him, you come to realize that it is not a balance problem, all the other zergs are just simply bad. Yeah, that's why Stephano couldn't even get out of his group at WCS. Are you talking about the Stephano who lost to Mana's Sentry Immortal all ins at ESWC? The same guy who got stomped, absolutely stomped by Seed in a 3 base Immortal push recently at IPTL. Is that who you're talking about? Oh but he won a weak tournament like Lonestar, beat a couple of Code B and one Code A player barely 3-2, so he's the best Zerg in the world for sure and we should all look up to him for guidance.
What the fuck? The guy lost one zvz, and went 3-2 (yes winning record) against Hero last weekend, you pluck out some random matches, and suddenly he's not a great player anymore?
Hot tip bud, even the best players don't win every match. Doesn't mean he is shit.
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On November 19 2012 14:55 Jintoss wrote:
Splitting your units and setting up your flanks is micro too. The Zergs who don't play positional games, loose to good execution. 'Crossing your fingers and hoping for bad forcefields' isn't lack of micro opportunity, its already loosing the initiative.
But to be fair, it is mainly a map issue. The extended corridors on Daybreak make IS timings sick good (while the dead space and cliffs inbetween them make broodlords sick good, but this is another topic!). Ohana is small, with obstructions in front of the 3rd which basically mean that there are only 3 possible flanks at best, and they are stoppable by 4 forcefields each. Stephano set up a sick 3-4 way flank, that ended up completely surrounding - at least 300 degrees - but this was on Antiga. d.Killer goes lings to delay, then floods with roaches. All abuse the fact that toss has to push out with 3 immortals and a load of sentries.
Forcefields are here to stay, they are too integral to all P matchups. Short of completely redesigning warpgate units (and their synergies with robo/SG, and their early game balance vs T and Z), there is nothing to be done.
Besides, HotS units are part of the fix, and IS All-ins will become irrelevant. You can't FF out a stream of locusts forever. And an obs will delay the push by almost a full Zerg inject cycle.
Flanks dont matter if someone has FFs, they can cut you off and make you trade incredibly inefficiently with them. And maps will ALWAYS be a problem, because FFs alter terrain. You can't make maps just for FFs, it shows they have too much power over the game.
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anyone ealse find a zerg complaining quite funny? I mean i agree FF is not the optimal way to make a game but with all the flaws in the game at the moment i think this is one of the least worrying.Its mandatory to keep in the game at the moment.If they took it out completely sc2 would become a completely differant game entirely for PVX. Thinking about nerfing FF i cant see any nerf in anyway that would work. I mean your complaining about FF before broodlord attack but why not go ultras which break forcefields and are quicker hive tech.Or why not just mass mutas so FF isnt a problem there are many ways to deal with it maybe not that viable but still. I think its op yes but so many things in this game are op and people find solutions ( not to infestors yet). I mean the zerg is useless in microing but when fungel hits you cant even move i think to make the game in which you describe would mean so many other units need buffs or nerfs i mean i guess you could decrease the size of FF but keep in mind it should ALWAYS block the ramp for mains and that doesnt solve the problem because they could just make more sentrys and making it non instant would just not ever work. imo i think that you need to look at the games overall bigger design to solve this problem
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Remove FF and buff gateway units. Maybe add a weak AoE ability to sentries that can work as a space controlling spell.
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I think MorroW's public posts about balance have been excellent thus far - well reasoned, thought out and carefully considered. I especially liked his post about mech TvP even though it failed to produce any potential changes (especially re: vikings). This is certainly no exception - there's no alternative proposed, but MorroW does effectively highlight and breakdown why FF is problematic in PvZ, especially with how both players approach the situation. Much like QXC and his recent videos, I feel MorroW has an excellent understanding of the game and genuinely wants to see it improve, for both the players and viewers. Hopefully MorroW's post on the b.net forums will enlighten a designer or two!
On November 19 2012 15:08 Serpico wrote:
And maps will ALWAYS be a problem, because FFs alter terrain. You can't make maps just for FFs, it shows they have too much power over the game.
This is why I'm particularly concerned about OSL's maps that are being transferred from BW. I think it was Bisu that said if he had FF in BW he'd never lose - Araknoid (iirc that's what it's called) seems especially susceptible to cutting up opposing armies.
We'll have to see though.
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Protoss overreliance on the Sentry is definitely hurting them in other areas. Less able to fight guerilla warfare, can get torn apart more easily by Medivac or Roach/Ling splits. Probably holding back Zealots base speed so you never see them BW stutter step.
I'm torn though, because I like the Forcefield mechanic, I just think it needs to be less prevalent. It should be Arbiter level tech, or like many have suggested, make them destructible.Then tweak the basics, and any subsequent spillover into Blink OPedness just needs a direct nerf to Blink, can't be avoided. Tired of Blink throttling any of the basic composition changes Protoss needs.
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I don''t agree with the OP all that much...
If you watch Sniper vs Parting about a week or so back, he beats a Parting all-in by attacking from 3 different points at once. I really feel like that all in can be held if the Zerg initiates a perfect attack, which is actually really hard, otherwise all Zergs would be doing it. Also, you must attack when the protoss is in its most awkward position.
Attacking from 3 different fronts is actually really hard to execute, since as a zerg you want all of your units to hit at the exact same time.
I really hate how people say Zerg requires no micro, I've played Terran/Protoss and I about a high diamond level, while my Zerg is mid masters (I main Zerg though), and I find that Terran/Protoss might have a bit more micro scenarios, but all of it is situational, and isn't actually that hard. With Zerg I find I have to flank, and if you are off by half a second it can often prove fatal.
I won't disagree that infestors are strong, and their micro is kind of easy, but it's not that much easier than High Templar/Ghosts.
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This should have been front page back in 2010 already actually.
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On November 19 2012 15:29 blug wrote:
I don''t agree with the OP all that much...
If you watch Sniper vs Parting about a week or so back, he beats a Parting all-in by attacking from 3 different points at once. I really feel like that all in can be held if the Zerg initiates a perfect attack, which is actually really hard, otherwise all Zergs would be doing it. Also, you must attack when the protoss is in its most awkward position.
Attacking from 3 different fronts is actually really hard to execute, since as a zerg you want all of your units to hit at the exact same time.
I really hate how people say Zerg requires no micro, I've played Terran/Protoss and I about a high diamond level, while my Zerg is mid masters (I main Zerg though), and I find that Terran/Protoss might have a bit more micro scenarios, but all of it is situational, and isn't actually that hard. With Zerg I find I have to flank, and if you are off by half a second it can often prove fatal.
I won't disagree that infestors are strong, and their micro is kind of easy, but it's not that much easier than High Templar/Ghosts.
Let's all quote the most extreme example of Zerg mastery to prove our point? And you don't even contradict the OP, you agree with him that the only thing zerg can do is position themselves well, because micro during the fight is useless.
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Just reading @rumodbrotheraturface post or any anyone else who defends FF mechanics along with fungal freezing just further validates the points that Morrow brought up.
for a race to either crumble or fall on one single spell caster to such a degree alone shows that's something just wrong. How about just removing the forcefield ability and make fungal without any slowing effects at all and just bite the bad apple and endure while balancing the game all over again.
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I think microing with an army just doesnt't suit to the zerg. All the races were designed the way to be as difference as possible.
Zerg players would have enough to do if the zerg wasn't so good. Zerg would gotta attack terran from different directions, burrow banelings, harass with muta, use nydus, which actually gives good opportunities for harass in late etc. In ZvP zergs used to be agressive, and some of them were successful with it in the past. And it required skill, because there were players like DRG and Stephano who were much more successful than others. Now there are plenty of zergs who can beat the best protosses of the world, because now zerg doesn't require a great skill, broodfestors solve all problems. Very many zergs can beat players like HerO now.
And also I can't agree that forcefields require a great micro. It's pretty easy to use, so I don't think that it makes the game. I just don't remember when I lost because of bad FFs. Or won because of excellent FFs. Seriously, I bet it has never happened, since I got in ML. It's always pretty decent, I had no serious problems with it even when I was a begginer. TvP is way more spell-dependent than PvZ I think. I mean that FFs usually just decent, while storms can be very bad or very good even in high level games. Oh, sorry, I mean, except vortex. Just I rarely see when protoss wins zerg even with a good vortex, so I forgot about it.
And I don't agree that zerg can't micro in ZvP at all. Zerg players can force protoss to make wasteful FFs, running around his army, like Stephano used to. Zerg players can attack protoss from different directions. Very few of you do it. It's a little, but zergs don't do even this. And it's absolutely enough to hold against immortal push. Do you really want to micro with units (why you don't always do micro which is available now then?) which weren't designed for accurate micro (and this is very obvious) or you just want another opportunity to hold against immortal push? Why this thread appears right after parting's beaten Sen 3-0 with immortal push every game? I don't think you are honest with us, Morrow and this more likely to be a well-hidden complaining. Beacuse I can't believe in your arguments.
Yeah, at last I want to add one more argument that proves you are wrong. There are zergs who are almost immune to immortal push, like Curious. No matter who's his opponent, he can hold againt it. So how you can say that everything depends on protoss's FFs? Curious' opponents always cast bad FFs?
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On November 19 2012 15:32 Kontys wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 15:29 blug wrote:
I don''t agree with the OP all that much...
If you watch Sniper vs Parting about a week or so back, he beats a Parting all-in by attacking from 3 different points at once. I really feel like that all in can be held if the Zerg initiates a perfect attack, which is actually really hard, otherwise all Zergs would be doing it. Also, you must attack when the protoss is in its most awkward position.
Attacking from 3 different fronts is actually really hard to execute, since as a zerg you want all of your units to hit at the exact same time.
I really hate how people say Zerg requires no micro, I've played Terran/Protoss and I about a high diamond level, while my Zerg is mid masters (I main Zerg though), and I find that Terran/Protoss might have a bit more micro scenarios, but all of it is situational, and isn't actually that hard. With Zerg I find I have to flank, and if you are off by half a second it can often prove fatal.
I won't disagree that infestors are strong, and their micro is kind of easy, but it's not that much easier than High Templar/Ghosts. Let's all quote the most extreme example of Zerg mastery to prove our point? And you don't even contradict the OP, you agree with him that the only thing zerg can do is position themselves well, because micro during the fight is useless.
Yeah but he talks about the fact that Protoss are the ones that need to make the mistakes. When Zerg can beat Protoss by using that improved positioning. I don't agree with him saying that it's up to the Protoss deciding who wins.
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EPT
