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On October 18 2012 04:29 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 04:23 Smackzilla wrote:On October 18 2012 03:57 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
the game not beeing casualfriendly enough is the least of all of that. since lol was brought up lol like evry dota clone is SUPER HARD to get into and esp for viewers its way way harder to understand things then 2 armies running into each other and one winning. i really think this focuses on a minor problem when so many bigger ones are evrywhere.
Depends on how you characterize casual. I don't read about ladder anxiety for the mobas. There's a vid on youtube of JP a couple of months back saying he was playing other things than SC2 because of that. He said after a hard day of work, he didnt want to come home and stress on ladder. He just wanted to play something fun and chill. thats a problem of the ladder/bnet. not the game itself. named customs and a nonranked mm would help a ton to give people options outside of the ladder.
I agree, especially on non-ranked match making. The small point I'd make is that I don't think you can separate bnet/ladder from sc2 the game. Its a multiplayer game and so if the multiplayer experience doesnt appeal to casuals then the game will ultimately die out.
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On October 18 2012 04:52 EggYsc2 wrote:
As a semi-proffesional I am also making the switch to LoL right now.
There is absolutely no reason for a semi-pro to be dedicating so much time into a dying game.
Not only into a dying game but a heavily flawed game just as destiny stated.
Even if I dont make it pro in LoL(though I dont think it is that hard) I have MUCH much more fun playing league of legends even if I do lose games and lose rating.
The community is better
everything seems better for Riot and LoL future.
It makes me sad a little because SC2 is the better game.
But Riot is the better company and in the long run that's what wins.
Any argument you could possibly use to suggest that sc2 is a dying game could easily be applied to League as well. In reality, all games are dying. This is the norm, this is how the gaming industry works. Broodwar was dying since the first day it was released as well. All that matters is how long it takes for a game to die, and anything you say is only speculation until you are commenting on a a game after it's death has taken place.
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On October 18 2012 04:50 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I have to agree with this article, the SC2 e-sports scene does seem screwed up by Blizzard and their rather stupid actions. Maybe it was due to Activision (sorry if this is a rumor) and their greedy/controlling actions, or maybe Blizzard really wanted to create a competitive game that would appeal to the competitive types. I have experienced hardcore SC2 fans leave for LoL because "It was too difficult" and "LoL is more appealing because of how easy/non-serious it is". SC2 simply does not appeal to any other gamer, the "casual" market because of how difficult it is compared to any other MOBA game. I have never felt as frustrated when I get cheesed or lose a game because of simple mistakes compared to any other game, because SC2 not a forgiving game.
The emphasis on "competitive" is driving SC2 down hard. I literally remember only playing UMS on BW, and maybe playing Melee a few times. UMS allowed for the community to express their creativity and have some fun with the game, while SC2 forces all players to resort to Arcade, which is a mess of half-copied ideas from BW UMS games and some fairly sloppy ones. There is no longer any care for the community as much as in BW, and the lack of any real action by Blizzard is dragging SC2 down. I just hope Blizzard can at least read this article to gain a good idea of what SC2 needs to fix. I love SC2, and I hate to see it end up irrelevant because of dumb business direction which could have been fixed 2-3 years ago.
Exactly. What's the most developed part of the current SC2? Ranked, 1on1 with a stranger, limited to the continent you bought your game on, on a map you can't decide, vs a random race, with the possibility of being demoted anytime without warning, so that you are in constant fear of demotion, where the game is many times decided by factors outside your visible control ("i lost and i don't know why"), where simple mistakes can end the game, and when you lose / win you get insulted for winning / losing, because the poor guy is also stressed out as everyone else, in a constant feeling of loneliness because the social aspect of the game is very badly developed.
Yeah, good luck with that Blizzard. Like many others i stopped playing SC2 for some time. I started out as a 1v1 addict, got bored because it required practice to be +- good and it was too stressfull for the mentioned reasons. Only played team games for a while, then unninstalled the game completely because even those got boring. Now i'm just following the scene and watching some tournaments from time to time. The OP touches points i've been feeling since a bit after the beta, but never really expressed them together.
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On October 18 2012 04:53 Jealous wrote:
People who are stating that UMS is the reason why BW survived are being subjective and ignorant. The game survived because of the proscene, BECAUSE of its competitive nature.
SC2 is the opposite. It is dying because it is like a BW UMS that is being forced to hold water as a competitive sport.
Apply for blizzard.
they would hire you in an instant.
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On October 18 2012 04:49 Bahajinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 04:47 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On October 18 2012 04:42 L0L wrote:
I would like to see Blizzard's response to this thread. Their silence has always been the most deafening response. Sadly this is the big problem.
That's because Blizzard thinks they are some kind of game making gods.
They are NOT down to earth like human beings.
They act like mythical divinities that can't speak to their customers because their customers are just simple humans that have the possibility of being wrong sometimes. Why would our opinion matter in the slightest?
They work in secret. Noone can argue with them. Everything has to be their way because their way is the best way ever and noone can argue with that.
So no, don't expect them be act like normal humans. When their godly game will be ready they will lets us mortals know.
Just look how they put themselves on high pedestals with their game developpers bashing formers blizzard employees...
(Jay Wilson telling David Brevik to fuck off when Wilson would be NOTHING without Brevik)
Seriously, the more I read and post in this thread the more mad I get after modern Blizzard.
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I've pretty much left sc2 entirely for the majority of 2012... and I can say I don't really regret it. I've been playing league of legends sadly... I love Starcraft. It was my baby, but Blizzard royally screwed it over by doing nothing more than making a game and releasing it with no support, in a modern gaming age where that just isn't plausible.
/waitfornextepicgamedeveloper
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On October 18 2012 04:56 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 04:50 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I have to agree with this article, the SC2 e-sports scene does seem screwed up by Blizzard and their rather stupid actions. Maybe it was due to Activision (sorry if this is a rumor) and their greedy/controlling actions, or maybe Blizzard really wanted to create a competitive game that would appeal to the competitive types. I have experienced hardcore SC2 fans leave for LoL because "It was too difficult" and "LoL is more appealing because of how easy/non-serious it is". SC2 simply does not appeal to any other gamer, the "casual" market because of how difficult it is compared to any other MOBA game. I have never felt as frustrated when I get cheesed or lose a game because of simple mistakes compared to any other game, because SC2 not a forgiving game.
The emphasis on "competitive" is driving SC2 down hard. I literally remember only playing UMS on BW, and maybe playing Melee a few times. UMS allowed for the community to express their creativity and have some fun with the game, while SC2 forces all players to resort to Arcade, which is a mess of half-copied ideas from BW UMS games and some fairly sloppy ones. There is no longer any care for the community as much as in BW, and the lack of any real action by Blizzard is dragging SC2 down. I just hope Blizzard can at least read this article to gain a good idea of what SC2 needs to fix. I love SC2, and I hate to see it end up irrelevant because of dumb business direction which could have been fixed 2-3 years ago. Exactly. What's the most developed part of the current SC2? Ranked, 1on1 with a stranger, on a map you can't decide, vs a random race, with the possibility of being demoted anytime without warning, so that you are in constant fear of demotion, where the game is many times decided by factors outside your visible control (i lost and i don't know why), and where simple mistakes can ruin the game, and when you lose / win you get insulted for winning / losing, in a constant feeling of loneliness because the social aspect of the game is very badly developed. Yeah, good luck with that Blizzard.
Just to illustrate why this is all just a natural difference of personal preference. The precise reason I quit League for sc2 was because I felt more isolated in LoL. In theory it is more social to play a lol game because you have more players in your game and more ability to chat with them and the enemy team. But then again unless you are playing with a full premade, most of the time that social experience is going to consist of being called a niggerfaggotfeeder for dying once, or having someone intentionally feed because they did not get the lane they wanted. I played LoL on a relatively high level and I eventually got fed up with the fact that every game turned into a rage fest unless you played with 4 rl friends which is not at all always the case.
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On October 18 2012 04:57 EggYsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 04:53 Jealous wrote:
People who are stating that UMS is the reason why BW survived are being subjective and ignorant. The game survived because of the proscene, BECAUSE of its competitive nature.
SC2 is the opposite. It is dying because it is like a BW UMS that is being forced to hold water as a competitive sport. Apply for blizzard. they would hire you in an instant.
Can't tell if sarcasm or not, but I worked for Blizzard Austin during WoL beta as a report analyst. I did not reapply for more Blizzard projects because of how the game turned out and how little mind was paid to the reports.
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All stuff I have believed for years, unfortunately I have 0% faith in Blizzard. I'm not even interested in HOTS at this point...
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On October 18 2012 03:34 Apolo wrote:
I think there are two main reasons why there's not so much action as people desire:
1) Many spells are too radical and disencourage micro and retreat on battles after they're cast:
- got fungal growthed? too bad, now your unit can't do anything;
- got forcefield trapped? wait for it to go away?
- got phoenix lifted? y, not much i can do about that, except kill the phoenix;
- got concussive shelled? yeah, unless you're zerg or a stalker with blink, good luck escaping;
- got emped? well run away and recharge;
- vortex? pre split or put them all in.
The solution to all of them is very one-dimensional: either you do something before it's cast, or you kill the caster or bring units to protect the affected ones...
2) Battles end too quickly
- Reasons: HP too low, damage too high, existence of many retreat disencouraging spells
- with many units and unit compositions, retreating is barely (if) better than just let your units fight to death. Damage per second (DPS) is so high, coupled with 1) micro / retreat disencouraging spells that while you're retreating you suffer so many heavy loses it's almost not worth it. So people fear that big battle, because just those 10s will decide everything.
This point is also related to deathballs. In the extreme, if units took infinite amounts of time to deliver finite amouts of damage, one should never make a death ball. Player 1 attacks player 2 with many small groups, player 2 decides to go for player 1's base. Since DPS is low, it gives Player 1 time to go back and defend without major loses. He can attack on multiple places without fear of leaving the base because he knows he could always go back and defend without having lost the game already. He can also gain time with those small groups. Even a big deathball must be careful of a few units that survive long enough. Multiple pronged attacks actually do more damage than a big head on attack, because they can be more precise and strategic, to the economy or key buildings than just brute force through the player's base.
And this is very bad spectator-wise. Who wants to watch a build up of tension for 15 minutes, while to see it ended in 5s? Well you could compare that to an orgasm and foreplay, but well i don't think the battle is remotely as good, and really not worth the hassle. Also i could compare it to football, only the most popular sport in the world, which has tension from beginning to end (unless its 3-0 and the final minutes of the game or some boring *cough Real Madrid* teams). When one team keeps defending and defending and the other attack and attacking almost on the verge of scoring a goal, and everyone is on the edge of their seats all the time. If only SC2 could manage that, but right now it's far from it. A good comeback in SC2 is a very rare thing to see, and generally it's because one player made serious mistakes. As soon as we see that supply drop a bit and see the direction the game is heading, the result is defined for the next 15 minutes and one might as well turn off the stream "What you do when you're ahead? you get more ahead" expresses this very well.
Didn't notice this post before and I must say, I agree a LOT (!!!) with this.
These coinflippy fights are one of the big things I dislike a lot in SC2. You macro up and maybe lose the whole game because of one little engagement. It just SUCKS and frustrates a lot. Same with PvZ lategame:
I will never call PvZ broke, but it is just freaking coinflippy. If Protoss can land an Archon Toilet, the game is basically over or if an Infestor can control your Mothership, the game is also basically over.
This is just a sign of very poor design. Don't get me wrong, I love the speed of SC2 as I think it is a very fast RTS. I like fast engagements but they should NEVER be game ending. And it really, really frustrates to lose ladder points because of these aspects.
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I feel like chipping into this discussion. I didn't ever touch BW but was aware of it and avoided it because I prefered AOE.
SC2 was the most fun when there were many more people playing it. I was much more interested in 2010 then I am now.
Seeing the average active players drop on SC2 ranks each month during 2011 was depressing. It was obvious that the casual players which are the absolute key ingredient to any game, had moved on.
SC2 sold something like 3.5m+ copies. How many active players are there now, I check SC2 ranks and its around 275k ish across the world give or take [For Active 1v1 players]. Most of these players are "hardcore" players at this point. I know there are some people who just play team games but thats a different story at this stage.
That means we can safely say about 3 million casual players bought the game and quit over the last 1-2 years.
Theres your problem. Thats your viewership right there gone.
The other problem is that Blizzard already made the big bucks on Launch, thats the ideal situation for them. People who buy the game and quit very early not using the free online. That costs them money.
I don't think E sports as a whole will fail. LoL has a big player base and seems to appeal to a broader range of people [ from the people I know personally who have played it ] It seems to be the new Farmvile. Super popular and super easy to pick up and play. The "Farmville" effect needs to be studied more.
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I'm surprised how easily swayed people are. What do you think MVP might say about the state of StarCraft?
Think for yourselves.
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On October 18 2012 04:56 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 04:52 EggYsc2 wrote:
As a semi-proffesional I am also making the switch to LoL right now.
There is absolutely no reason for a semi-pro to be dedicating so much time into a dying game.
Not only into a dying game but a heavily flawed game just as destiny stated.
Even if I dont make it pro in LoL(though I dont think it is that hard) I have MUCH much more fun playing league of legends even if I do lose games and lose rating.
The community is better
everything seems better for Riot and LoL future.
It makes me sad a little because SC2 is the better game.
But Riot is the better company and in the long run that's what wins. Any argument you could possibly use to suggest that sc2 is a dying game could easily be applied to League as well. In reality, all games are dying. This is the norm, this is how the gaming industry works. Broodwar was dying since the first day it was released as well. All that matters is how long it takes for a game to die, and anything you say is only speculation until you are commenting on a a game after it's death has taken place.
Rofl BW had peak viewership somewhere around 2006-2008. Saying that it (or any other game) was dying from day 1 is retarded.
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I love how people act like because something isn't the #1 eSport it's doomed. Sorry guys but as long as eSports has more than one game, there is going to be a most popular game and then every other eSport is going to be ... *gasp* less popular. You know which one isn't going to be the most popular though? One with an extremely negative community.
I like StarCraft 2 and eSports and I support both, but what's going on right now in the community is pretty sad. The FGC, you know those guys with $50 first prizes at tournaments + an arcade stick they already own, those guys with like no corporate sponsorship, fewer stream viewers than us (but manage to put up competitive numbers for major events), totally in denial about their games being eSports, etc - Those guys are now making fun of us. Sad times, sad sad times.
I'm surprised how easily swayed people are. What do you think MVP might say about the state of StarCraft?
I agree with you, but that seems to be a skill that's been lost recently. Sadly this is honestly how the youth is in the west today.
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On October 18 2012 04:53 Jealous wrote:
People who are stating that UMS is the reason why BW survived are being subjective and ignorant. The game survived because of the proscene, BECAUSE of its competitive nature.
SC2 is the opposite. It is dying because it is like a BW UMS that is being forced to hold water as a competitive sport.
This is the most ironic thing I've heard today.
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Dont forget that Sc2 is way to macro and blizz is deciding way to much that almost nobody in the community likes.All valid points btw.
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I watched some HOTS invitational casted by Khaldor and I was utterly disappointed. First of all Oracle flying and casting Emtomb (whatever is spell blocking minerals) and I was like WTF, what I am watching here. If this is the direction where SC2 goes then I can only feel sorry for scene. Khaldor trying to be positive about Beta but really he was very frustrated too.
Consider after 2 years launching WOL and they came up ideas like that. I fear that SC2 will have same faith WC3 did and BW but even faster.I liked both WC3 and BW very much. Funny thing is that I tend to see how game/scene developed and only bought WC3 after 1 year and BW 7 years after it was out. I don't even consider buying SC2 WOL or Hots that matter.
B.net mainly is big issue for SC2. WC3 I always liked to join lobby and chat,brag, whine etc with other users and it was fun. SC2 b.net is just big black piece that is dark and non responding (they added chat later on but too late). I just can't understand how they messed up b.net that badly when they could have used WC3 b.net from the start.
Other point to make is that games generally are made to be too easy. Back in 90s/early 2000s games were much harder but today less challenging.
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On October 18 2012 05:04 MVega wrote:I love how people act like because something isn't the #1 eSport it's doomed. Sorry guys but as long as eSports has more than one game, there is going to be a most popular game and then every other eSport is going to be ... *gasp* less popular. You know which one isn't going to be the most popular though? One with an extremely negative community. I like StarCraft 2 and eSports and I support both, but what's going on right now in the community is pretty sad. The FGC, you know those guys with $50 first prizes at tournaments + an arcade stick they already own, those guys with like no corporate sponsorship, fewer stream viewers than us (but manage to put up competitive numbers for major events), totally in denial about their games being eSports, etc - Those guys are now making fun of us. Sad times, sad sad times. Show nested quote +I'm surprised how easily swayed people are. What do you think MVP might say about the state of StarCraft? I agree with you, but that seems to be a skill that's been lost recently. Sadly this is honestly how the youth is in the west today.
if its not #1 it wont get the most money
if it doesnt get the most money people wont play it as much
if people dont play it as much their wont be the highest level of play
if it doesnt have the highest level of play it will get disregarded as a good esport
if its not a good esport it starts to die and eventually fall off
it.
does.
matter.
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On October 18 2012 05:04 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 04:56 VanGarde wrote:On October 18 2012 04:52 EggYsc2 wrote:
As a semi-proffesional I am also making the switch to LoL right now.
There is absolutely no reason for a semi-pro to be dedicating so much time into a dying game.
Not only into a dying game but a heavily flawed game just as destiny stated.
Even if I dont make it pro in LoL(though I dont think it is that hard) I have MUCH much more fun playing league of legends even if I do lose games and lose rating.
The community is better
everything seems better for Riot and LoL future.
It makes me sad a little because SC2 is the better game.
But Riot is the better company and in the long run that's what wins. Any argument you could possibly use to suggest that sc2 is a dying game could easily be applied to League as well. In reality, all games are dying. This is the norm, this is how the gaming industry works. Broodwar was dying since the first day it was released as well. All that matters is how long it takes for a game to die, and anything you say is only speculation until you are commenting on a a game after it's death has taken place. Rofl BW had peak viewership somewhere around 2006-2008. Saying that it (or any other game) was dying from day 1 is retarded.
I don't think you understand what I am saying, I am saying that every game from the second it is released has a finite life span. How long that life span is might vary but by simple laws of nature every game will die eventually. Sc2 will die, LoL will die, dota 2 will die. They will all be replaced with other games. No one is in a position atm to accurately determine which one will die first.
Actually interesting fact, LoL was really popular when it first went through beta and for a while after release but then started struggling, people predicted with just as much certainty as people are spouting out here that LoL would in fact be dead very soon because of the superiority of HoN. Now LoL is a very popular esports game and people are acting as if it's lifespan is assured for infinity while also somehow not being able to comprehend that starcraft could go through ups and downs. I don't think starcraft is in that position sc2 is still the biggest esports game by far. Maybe LoL has more viewers on individual events but it has less tournaments, and less paying viewers.
In the end I don't care I personally like to have both hockey, basketball and football on tv. I would also like an esportsscene that has both rts, moba and fps. I think that in fact it is a sign of a healthy industry that we have several games. The people who are so narrowminded that they think there can only be one competitive game and all others have to die. I don't know what to say to you.
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On October 18 2012 05:03 Ssoulle wrote:
The "Farmville" effect needs to be studied more.
It's very simple: reward system + skill curve.
BW's skill curve is incredibly steep and reward system is incredibly weak. You have to invest dozens of hours into the game before you can even consider playing 1v1 at D- rank on ICCup. I know players who have over 5k games on their accounts and have barely broken D+.
Perfect example:
http://ru.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/mishin.html
SC2 is similar, but the skill curve is less steep due to the noob-friendly MBC, automine, infinite group selection, autosuround, pathing, etc. etc. The reward system is still relatively shitty, besides achievements which are always a sucker magnet in games. People like to feel like they get awards.
Farmville has close to no skill curve for people who are capable of using a keyboard and mouse, while the reward system is huge: you see every positive decision you made compound itself upon previous ones, building this virtual farm.
Same idea can be extended to D2/D3. In D2 it was a HUGE reward system which was essentially a treasure hunt as someone said, and D3 you can just exchange gold for epic loot (weak reward system).
This whole thing is no mystery. People like to feel good. They don't like to put in a lot of effort to feel good, especially during their free time between work/school/family/whatever. This is also the explanation for many cases of alcoholism, drug use, etc. Gaming reward systems hit similar regions in the brain as cocaine does. I did a paper on this in college, I thought it would be more complex than this but it's really not ):
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EPT
