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On October 18 2012 05:33 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 05:23 StarStruck wrote:
Of course you do because it's coming from you.
Your post was just as ignorant because you aren't looking at the bigger picture.
There are many different subdivisions within the BW community including BGH players and the UMS community.
There are many things that BW had going for it.
All Destiny and many others are saying to make the game more accessible and sociable.
Don't put words into people's mouths. No one is saying that UMS is the reason why BW survived lmao.
"The emphasis on "competitive" is driving SC2 down hard. I literally remember only playing UMS on BW, and maybe playing Melee a few times. UMS allowed for the community to express their creativity and have some fun with the game, while SC2 forces all players to resort to Arcade, which is a mess of half-copied ideas from BW UMS games and some fairly sloppy ones. There is no longer any care for the community as much as in BW, and the lack of any real action by Blizzard is dragging SC2 down. " Many sentiments like this are found in this thread. I agree that there are many subdivisions in BW but the ONLY one that maintained its status as a competitive game is *oh no* the competitive 1v1 scene! The rest are no different from minor communities that survive in old games to this day, like in Total Annihilation or Mech Warrior 2. It was because of the proscene that BW had name value (well, it is a great game as well), not because of UMS or BGH. Hence, it is the proscene that was integral to the 'survival' of the game. With just UMS and BGH, the game is as dead as TA and MW2. I can understand that people want more Farmville in their SC2. That's exactly what I thought Blizzard had already achieved but this thread proved to me otherwise, and I find that somewhat reassuring. At the same time I can see why people are upset about this. Don't be hostile and please use Quote function ^^
You just said you only played a few BGH and UMS games here or there.
Whereas there are guys telling you that they like many others played just BGH or something else for that matter for several years and didn't really know about the no money community until later.
I can give you a long list of guys who fall into such categories including many of your present day admins like Chill.
The game had legs for several reasons.
Some UMS games were pretty popular as well.
"We v-techers been doing that for years."
lol
P.S. you are placing too much importance on the competitive scene rather general interest of the game itself for lasting appeal.
One other thing, BGH was actually pretty competitive as fuck as we've witnessed ourselves on this very site.
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On October 18 2012 05:31 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 05:26 d00p wrote:
I still think SC2 will survive. Maybe it won't be the biggest esport but it will be there. Eventually it will be followed by SC3 or WC4. There simply aren't any notable competitors in the RTS genre and I find it VERY hard to believe that a new game could ever gain significant ground. The reason why I don't see LoL and the likes as an immediate threat/alternative is that I simply don't enjoy watching (no hatin) MOBAs at all and I think there are loads of people like me in the scene. Where would we go?
And if commercial interest on a larger scale is lost then.. so what? We'll still have a (smaller?) community. We'll still have smaller tournaments.
Things could also turn out way better and grow bigger than ever. Legacy of the Void could be the tits and HotS will sustain us even if it's kinda meh. One thing is for sure: there will NEVER be an another BW, a game that lasts 10+ years. Those days are gone. how many people will buy sc3 knowing it's the successor to sc2. How many people who buy sc3 will do so hoping for another game similar to bw? The biggest reason sc2 even sold at all was it's name tag.
So true that it is sad.
I would have not bought SC2 if it wasn't named SC2.
What if SC2 was called Galatic Invasion and D3 was called Smashing demons?
Would we still buy that? Pretty sure they would lose A LOT of sells.
They abused the fact that another company that was also called Blizzard at some point made amazing PC games and figured that there was a huge fortune to be made out of these titles.
The reason why 90% of us bought SC2 or D3 is only because of past memories and nostalgia of how fucking awesome their predecessor were.
This is so true that even the opposite in applicable.
What about a game that started really bad and noone liked it then evolved into something awesome? It will never sell as well as a game that has amazing predecessors (like SC2 and D3) even if it's relatively better than the previous games. I'm having a hard time finding an exemple here but let's take Torchlight 1 and 2.
Even if torchlight 2 is 10x better than D3, it will never get as many sales. Why? Because Torchlight 1 was not as good as Diablo 1 and 2 were.
That's how Blizzard made money in the last 10 years. They are pretty smart I have to say.
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SC2 is probably the best game in the last 5 years. Hopefully HOTS will be good enough so that it's the best in game for the next 5+ years.
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On October 18 2012 05:31 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 05:26 d00p wrote:
I still think SC2 will survive. Maybe it won't be the biggest esport but it will be there. Eventually it will be followed by SC3 or WC4. There simply aren't any notable competitors in the RTS genre and I find it VERY hard to believe that a new game could ever gain significant ground. The reason why I don't see LoL and the likes as an immediate threat/alternative is that I simply don't enjoy watching (no hatin) MOBAs at all and I think there are loads of people like me in the scene. Where would we go?
And if commercial interest on a larger scale is lost then.. so what? We'll still have a (smaller?) community. We'll still have smaller tournaments.
Things could also turn out way better and grow bigger than ever. Legacy of the Void could be the tits and HotS will sustain us even if it's kinda meh. One thing is for sure: there will NEVER be an another BW, a game that lasts 10+ years. Those days are gone. how many people will buy sc3 knowing it's the successor to sc2. How many people who buy sc3 will do so hoping for another game similar to bw? The biggest reason sc2 even sold at all was it's name tag.
and it's a Blizzard game. We all know the Blizzard loyalists show up in droves heck I'm certainly one of them but I can only take so much crap.
I'll think long and hard about my next Blizzard title purchase.
We're really bad consumers, lol.
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To be successful you need to have a large casual base and the pro's willing to put their time in to be the best. Right now SC2 has the latter, but not the former, which is arguably more important to longevity. Just because SCII was a blockbuster title doesn't mean that they can't think of a business model that allows for access for the masses while also being self-sustaining.
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i honestly couldn't agree more with this. The game design is so out of touch, and for the casual gamer, there's absolutely nothing to gain. And he hit the nail right on the head with HotS... I was so stoked on it for about a week, and now its just unbelivably stale and boring.
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I think blizzard fans are spoiled by how amazing the company used to be. Blizzard may not be what it used to be but it still makes better games than pretty much every other developer, and with WCS it's still showing more support than most companies would.
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On October 18 2012 05:50 DanLee wrote:
I think blizzard fans are spoiled by how amazing the company used to be. Blizzard may not be what it used to be but it still makes better games than pretty much every other developer, and with WCS it's still showing more support than most companies would.
Then why fix what isn't broken? What did those developers smoke before they decided "lets make sc2 and d3 gawd awful"?
Once you make a blockbuster hit, people will have high expectations for you in the future.
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On October 18 2012 05:45 baba1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 05:31 rysecake wrote:On October 18 2012 05:26 d00p wrote:
I still think SC2 will survive. Maybe it won't be the biggest esport but it will be there. Eventually it will be followed by SC3 or WC4. There simply aren't any notable competitors in the RTS genre and I find it VERY hard to believe that a new game could ever gain significant ground. The reason why I don't see LoL and the likes as an immediate threat/alternative is that I simply don't enjoy watching (no hatin) MOBAs at all and I think there are loads of people like me in the scene. Where would we go?
And if commercial interest on a larger scale is lost then.. so what? We'll still have a (smaller?) community. We'll still have smaller tournaments.
Things could also turn out way better and grow bigger than ever. Legacy of the Void could be the tits and HotS will sustain us even if it's kinda meh. One thing is for sure: there will NEVER be an another BW, a game that lasts 10+ years. Those days are gone. how many people will buy sc3 knowing it's the successor to sc2. How many people who buy sc3 will do so hoping for another game similar to bw? The biggest reason sc2 even sold at all was it's name tag. So true that it is sad. I would have not bought SC2 if it wasn't named SC2. What if SC2 was called Galatic Invasion and D3 was called Smashing demons? Would we still buy that? Pretty sure they would lose A LOT of sells. They abused the fact that another company that was also called Blizzard at some point made amazing PC games and figured that there was a huge fortune to be made out of these titles. The reason why 90% of us bought SC2 or D3 is only because of past memories and nostalgia of how fucking awesome their predecessor were. This is so true that even the opposite in applicable. What about a game that started really bad and noone liked it then evolved into something awesome? It will never sell as well as a game that has amazing predecessors (like SC2 and D3) even if it's relatively better than the previous games. I'm having a hard time finding an exemple here but let's take Torchlight 1 and 2. Even if torchlight 2 is 10x better than D3, it will never get as many sales. Why? Because Torchlight 1 was not as good as Diablo 1 and 2 were. That's how Blizzard made money in the last 10 years. They are pretty smart I have to say.
Well I think it is actually very likely that there will be no D4 or Sc3. But it really doesn't matter for Activision BLizzard as they make a shitton of money on COD, and a decent amount of WOW.
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People are talking about how BW was not designed to be an e-sport.
Well obviously it was not as the word e-sport probably didn't even exist back then!
People didn't even know that e-sports would even exist someday let alone how to make one.
Well, modern Blizzard are arrogant enough to claim to be able to create e-sports.
Like I said in previous posts, a company does not make an e-sport.
The community -and the community ONLY- elects what games are e-sports worthy.
I find it very pretentious and arrogant of Blizzard to have such claims.
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On October 18 2012 05:53 baba1 wrote:
People are talking about how BW was not designed to be an e-sport.
Well obviously it was not as the word e-sport probably didn't even exist back then!
People didn't even know that e-sports would even exist someday let alone how to make one.
Well, modern Blizzard are arrogant enough to claim to be able to create e-sports.
Like I said in previous posts, a company does not make an e-sport.
The community -and the community ONLY- elects what games are e-sports worthy.
I find it very pretentious and arrogant of Blizzard to have such claims.
Sounds like you're playing with semantics. They made SC2, SC2 is an esports, so they've made an e-sport. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
BW had such a small foreign scene. SC2 exploded the foreign scene and now it's one of the biggest esports scene. #SaveHOTS
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i completely agree with all of this.
Particularly from a players perspective. I literally played like 3 online games, got void ray rushed all 3 times and never played again, maps and fun maps games were too hard to find, no chat, campaign was meh...so many things that made broodwar great just werent there. But i have watched Sc2 esports religiously, but never play it.
Diablo 3 was the same story compared to D2. Mists of Pandaria is the same story compared with Vanilla and TBC. i honestly believe that Blizzard is going downhill, and they will start losing against other up and coming developers.
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This is a good article. Destiny should do more of that.
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On October 18 2012 05:56 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 05:53 baba1 wrote:
People are talking about how BW was not designed to be an e-sport.
Well obviously it was not as the word e-sport probably didn't even exist back then!
People didn't even know that e-sports would even exist someday let alone how to make one.
Well, modern Blizzard are arrogant enough to claim to be able to create e-sports.
Like I said in previous posts, a company does not make an e-sport.
The community -and the community ONLY- elects what games are e-sports worthy.
I find it very pretentious and arrogant of Blizzard to have such claims. Sounds like you're playing with semantics. They made SC2, SC2 is an esports, so they've made an e-sport. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ BW had such a small foreign scene. SC2 exploded the foreign scene and now it's one of the biggest esports scene. #SaveHOTS
the international scene is insignificant when compared to broodwar in South Korea 10 years ago. He is completely right. You dont create an esport, esports are people. Developers create games.
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Here is a simple fact that SC2 is declining.
IdrA has 2.3k viewers right now and his stream has been live for atleast an hour.
He used to get 7k easy with an all time high of 14k...
yeah
Same with Stephano.
5k~ yesterday.
Really 5k?
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I have just skimmed through over 50 posts or so and noticed that there was a majority of posts discussing the comparison of LoL viewership numbers directly with SC2 numbers.
I don't really get this, just last weekend Asus Rog on Twitch had about 17k alone (SC2 Total was around 24-30k) and LoL had the World Championships with a total ranging between 27k-32k. Now I am not sure if Riot had their own stream running or not but the twitch numbers were relatively the same. Then if you take into account that LoL has 7 times the user base then it doesn't to be that big of a deal.
All in all those numbers have no bearing on which game is the better e-sport or not.
A few months ago macro games never really existed and it was all about two base timings 90% of the time. That is no longer the case and we are getting more and more macro games, okay so PvZ is a bit stale as the end game is always the same. Some minor tweaks and it is fixed.
These last few months have been stale mainly because there is no point in adding more changes before HoTS is out.Why use valuable time/resources when they should be working on HoTS release and balance instead. I think most of the people on TL are too overly critical of Blizzard nowadays, with a pessimistic outlook of things rather than looking at the bigger picture.
Just remember Starcraft would have never got anywhere without Brood War.
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On October 18 2012 06:03 Herry wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 05:56 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 18 2012 05:53 baba1 wrote:
People are talking about how BW was not designed to be an e-sport.
Well obviously it was not as the word e-sport probably didn't even exist back then!
People didn't even know that e-sports would even exist someday let alone how to make one.
Well, modern Blizzard are arrogant enough to claim to be able to create e-sports.
Like I said in previous posts, a company does not make an e-sport.
The community -and the community ONLY- elects what games are e-sports worthy.
I find it very pretentious and arrogant of Blizzard to have such claims. Sounds like you're playing with semantics. They made SC2, SC2 is an esports, so they've made an e-sport. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ BW had such a small foreign scene. SC2 exploded the foreign scene and now it's one of the biggest esports scene. #SaveHOTS the international scene is insignificant when compared to broodwar in South Korea 10 years ago. He is completely right. You dont create an esport, esports are people. Developers create games.
Still feel like it's just a semantic argument.
Valve created DOTA and CS:GO with E-sports as a driving force. Nothing wrong with that.
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On October 18 2012 05:56 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 05:53 baba1 wrote:
People are talking about how BW was not designed to be an e-sport.
Well obviously it was not as the word e-sport probably didn't even exist back then!
People didn't even know that e-sports would even exist someday let alone how to make one.
Well, modern Blizzard are arrogant enough to claim to be able to create e-sports.
Like I said in previous posts, a company does not make an e-sport.
The community -and the community ONLY- elects what games are e-sports worthy.
I find it very pretentious and arrogant of Blizzard to have such claims. Sounds like you're playing with semantics. They made SC2, SC2 is an esports, so they've made an e-sport. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ BW had such a small foreign scene. SC2 exploded the foreign scene and now it's one of the biggest esports scene. #SaveHOTS
And this is why it's not a top quality e-sport.
Because they claim to have 'made an e-sport'.
I'll say it again!
A game is not born e-sport. It becomes one if the community let it be an e-sport.
It's like having a kid and telling people before he's born that he's gonna be Football superstar when in fact the kid choose to be a artist.
If you force the kid into Football, yes there is a chance he will become a Football super star.
But in the end, the person who has the last word is the kid. Or the community, here, for SC2.
Anyone can come up with ideas for a new sport. Does that mean it's gonna be as popular as football/soccer/baseball etc?
No, unless the community chooses so. I hope people get my point now.
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Why don't the people that email sponsors about bad things that happen in the community email Blizzard about their terrible work too? I don't see why this hasn't been rallied behind sooner. Also, great post by Destiny.
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EPT
