|
On October 18 2012 04:56 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 04:50 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I have to agree with this article, the SC2 e-sports scene does seem screwed up by Blizzard and their rather stupid actions. Maybe it was due to Activision (sorry if this is a rumor) and their greedy/controlling actions, or maybe Blizzard really wanted to create a competitive game that would appeal to the competitive types. I have experienced hardcore SC2 fans leave for LoL because "It was too difficult" and "LoL is more appealing because of how easy/non-serious it is". SC2 simply does not appeal to any other gamer, the "casual" market because of how difficult it is compared to any other MOBA game. I have never felt as frustrated when I get cheesed or lose a game because of simple mistakes compared to any other game, because SC2 not a forgiving game.
The emphasis on "competitive" is driving SC2 down hard. I literally remember only playing UMS on BW, and maybe playing Melee a few times. UMS allowed for the community to express their creativity and have some fun with the game, while SC2 forces all players to resort to Arcade, which is a mess of half-copied ideas from BW UMS games and some fairly sloppy ones. There is no longer any care for the community as much as in BW, and the lack of any real action by Blizzard is dragging SC2 down. I just hope Blizzard can at least read this article to gain a good idea of what SC2 needs to fix. I love SC2, and I hate to see it end up irrelevant because of dumb business direction which could have been fixed 2-3 years ago. Exactly. What's the most developed part of the current SC2? Ranked, 1on1 with a stranger, limited to the continent you bought your game on, on a map you can't decide, vs a random race, with the possibility of being demoted anytime without warning, so that you are in constant fear of demotion, where the game is many times decided by factors outside your visible control ("i lost and i don't know why"), where simple mistakes can end the game, and when you lose / win you get insulted for winning / losing, because the poor guy is also stressed out as everyone else, in a constant feeling of loneliness because the social aspect of the game is very badly developed. Yeah, good luck with that Blizzard. Like many others i stopped playing SC2 for some time. I started out as a 1v1 addict, got bored because it required practice to be +- good and it was too stressfull for the mentioned reasons. Only played team games for a while, then unninstalled the game completely because even those got boring. Now i'm just following the scene and watching some tournaments from time to time. The OP touches points i've been feeling since a bit after the beta, but never really expressed them together.
Exactly why I stopped playing too. The game is just too stressful, in order to get good you need to practice in a specific way and if you don't have access (or time) for that kind of practice, you get frustrated. It also does not reward the player enough to keep playing. I just switched to Dota 2 and I don't miss SC2 at all. It is much more fun and much less stressful than SC2. The last MLG I watched was the one with JD/Flash etc. and it was also the last tournement I watched. The International 2 though was just super exciting.
|
On October 18 2012 06:04 EggYsc2 wrote:
Here is a simple fact that SC2 is declining.
IdrA has 2.3k viewers right now and his stream has been live for atleast an hour.
He used to get 7k easy with an all time high of 14k...
yeah
Same with Stephano.
5k~ yesterday.
Really 5k?
His all time high wasn't 14k. Like 1-1.5 year ago he was at 18-20k.
Back then he could easily average 10k + as well.
|
On October 17 2012 14:01 Torte de Lini wrote:Formatting is subpar  Even if Dota and LoL triumph over SC2 (which is already happening), Blizzard still has a dominance and no competition in the RTS scene, does that not matter? We're comparing two different genres on the premise of E-Sports, but Blizzard still has a hold on the players and scene. Not all, or even many, players will go to Dota and they like the scene and the community. That's enough for the game to still live with some tournaments, major events, etc. There are a lot of fundamental problems with the scene, Blizzard is at fault in-part, but I think we have a lot of internal issues too. Dota and LoL also suffer major problems within their respective scene that hinder their growth, but I can see how Blizzard is miles away from what Valve and Riot are suffering from.
It's relevant in the sense that any good ''Gamer'' can be good at pretty much every type of game given time. This isn't like soccer and hockey where you need 2 completely different skill sets to thrive in the given sport. So the comparison is more like Canadian Football vs NFL. You can either play a game and win 80k a year (average) or you can win 500k a year, your choice. Sure some will stay in Canada because they love the country, but most people are going to take the opportunity and go for the cash!
Most pro-gamers spend thousands of hours on a specific game because it is lucrative for them to do so. LoL offers tournaments with an immense prizepool and an immense player pool aswell. LoL brings in 3x the viewers SC2 does and have a ton more active players. The game is relatively accessible to ''casual'' and ''hardcore'' players which make it very interesting for people, it's living a popularity explosion kindof like when Moneymaker won the WSOP in 2003, it's like ''Hey... I can do that! I can win that money!''
I guess my point is that of course there will always be a place for SC2 (I hope!) in competitive gaming, but since there is no substantial money injection outside of independant tournaments (WCS is coming I know, but it's a joke compared to LoL and DotA2). Pro-Gamers basically have the option to make more money playing an easier game with these MOBAs that keep gratifying you with items, skins, runes, achievements, etc. Instead of grinding it out in Masters and GM league (which makes no difference btw because being GM means absolutely nothing.) for points that give you... nothing.
|
On October 18 2012 06:05 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 06:03 Herry wrote:On October 18 2012 05:56 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 18 2012 05:53 baba1 wrote:
People are talking about how BW was not designed to be an e-sport.
Well obviously it was not as the word e-sport probably didn't even exist back then!
People didn't even know that e-sports would even exist someday let alone how to make one.
Well, modern Blizzard are arrogant enough to claim to be able to create e-sports.
Like I said in previous posts, a company does not make an e-sport.
The community -and the community ONLY- elects what games are e-sports worthy.
I find it very pretentious and arrogant of Blizzard to have such claims. Sounds like you're playing with semantics. They made SC2, SC2 is an esports, so they've made an e-sport. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ BW had such a small foreign scene. SC2 exploded the foreign scene and now it's one of the biggest esports scene. #SaveHOTS the international scene is insignificant when compared to broodwar in South Korea 10 years ago. He is completely right. You dont create an esport, esports are people. Developers create games. Still feel like it's just a semantic argument. Valve created DOTA and CS:GO with E-sports as a driving force. Nothing wrong with that.
both of those were games created to be games many years ago. Dota was a UMS map inside of a blizzard game ffs lol Their popularity with the people is what made them esports, see what i mean?
all they did with Dota 2 and CS:GO was improve the brilliant design but leave it almost exactly as it was, Blizzard up and changed almost everything about Broodwar, try to make all these new units and game mechanics, menu's and chatting, online only, game types you would hardly recognise it. another fact is if they brought in old units like Corsairs, goliaths and Lurkers, people would react a hell of a lot better too
|
Laddering lost its gleam for me after about 6 months of playing. I lived with 2 roommates who also played and we all played 1v1 ladder... but after awhile it got boring sitting in the same room playing ladder by ourselves. We decided to try team games. 3v3's to be exact. At first we had a good time messing around without a care in the world as to a build order. But then just being better at macro than our opponents eventually got us high enough to where 3v3 was more like "who can execute the cheesier rush strategy" We tried playing some UMS games but they were all terrible. This was back when you could basically only play nexus wars or nexus wars clones -shudder-
Well I don't live with those roommates anymore, but we sure do enjoy playing Dota2 together still.
My interest in watching has waned to just watching the final day of MLG and the finals of GSL/GSTL
|
On October 18 2012 06:04 EggYsc2 wrote:
Here is a simple fact that SC2 is declining.
IdrA has 2.3k viewers right now and his stream has been live for atleast an hour.
He used to get 7k easy with an all time high of 14k...
yeah
Same with Stephano.
5k~ yesterday.
Really 5k?
Streaming isn't all that important.
|
I think the game can never be fun because of the clunky engine that makes it impossible to micro because of the 200ms input lag
as well as the terrible pathing.
For one Blizzard already has LAN internally they use for testing because ive seen it on their computers while they were doing a demonstration at blizzcon or something.
Secondly, some guy has already created brood war pathing by just changing 1 variable in the MAP EDITOR.
They absolutely need to change this.
|
I don't want SC2 to be free-to-play... I just want to buy a game to have access to ALL of it's features like every other owner. That's what I'm willing to pay for!
The other problem is while it may be true that a free-to-play model and/or adjustments to the game mechanics to simplify gameplay for beginners (scan radius, auto-mine. worker-count) would attract more casual gamers but it would take depth away from the game I grew to love so much (although it having flaws here and there).
While the scene would temporarily grow, many casuals would sooner or less lose interest in SC because it is a hard to master game with a pretty high skill ceiling.
The thing is SC2 is ultimately designed to be "hardcore" (not compared to BW  ) to appeal the esport aspect and the high expectations of the core scene which just doesn't consist of casuals and never will...
This game IS competition and while I sometimes (more often then I'd like  ) experience a feeling of working rather than playing, I love it through and through! It is hard, but that motivates me to overcome my flaws and improve!
Some games shouldn't have to be appealing to everybody, if so, the better, but not necessarily!
I may be a hardcore gamer, but surely not the last one! We're still alive!
|
On October 18 2012 06:05 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 06:03 Herry wrote:On October 18 2012 05:56 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 18 2012 05:53 baba1 wrote:
People are talking about how BW was not designed to be an e-sport.
Well obviously it was not as the word e-sport probably didn't even exist back then!
People didn't even know that e-sports would even exist someday let alone how to make one.
Well, modern Blizzard are arrogant enough to claim to be able to create e-sports.
Like I said in previous posts, a company does not make an e-sport.
The community -and the community ONLY- elects what games are e-sports worthy.
I find it very pretentious and arrogant of Blizzard to have such claims. Sounds like you're playing with semantics. They made SC2, SC2 is an esports, so they've made an e-sport. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ BW had such a small foreign scene. SC2 exploded the foreign scene and now it's one of the biggest esports scene. #SaveHOTS the international scene is insignificant when compared to broodwar in South Korea 10 years ago. He is completely right. You dont create an esport, esports are people. Developers create games. Still feel like it's just a semantic argument. Valve created DOTA and CS:GO with E-sports as a driving force. Nothing wrong with that.
I honestly couldn't care less about semantics.
They made Dota2 and Cs:GO HOPING it would make it to an e-sport. How many times will I have to say it: you can't create an e-sport, games will become one if it has to.
What if they self-proclaimed e-sports turn out to be shitty games that noone plays? Are they still e-sports just because the game devs said so? Come on guys...
|
On October 18 2012 06:17 baba1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 06:05 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 18 2012 06:03 Herry wrote:On October 18 2012 05:56 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 18 2012 05:53 baba1 wrote:
People are talking about how BW was not designed to be an e-sport.
Well obviously it was not as the word e-sport probably didn't even exist back then!
People didn't even know that e-sports would even exist someday let alone how to make one.
Well, modern Blizzard are arrogant enough to claim to be able to create e-sports.
Like I said in previous posts, a company does not make an e-sport.
The community -and the community ONLY- elects what games are e-sports worthy.
I find it very pretentious and arrogant of Blizzard to have such claims. Sounds like you're playing with semantics. They made SC2, SC2 is an esports, so they've made an e-sport. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ BW had such a small foreign scene. SC2 exploded the foreign scene and now it's one of the biggest esports scene. #SaveHOTS the international scene is insignificant when compared to broodwar in South Korea 10 years ago. He is completely right. You dont create an esport, esports are people. Developers create games. Still feel like it's just a semantic argument. Valve created DOTA and CS:GO with E-sports as a driving force. Nothing wrong with that. I honestly couldn't care less about semantics. They made Dota2 and Cs:GO HOPING it would make it to an e-sport. How many times will I have to say it: you can't create an e-sport, games will become one if it has to. What if they self-proclaimed e-sports turn out to be shitty games that noone plays? Are they still e-sports just because the game devs said so? Come on guys...
This is the most pointless argument in this thread. So your objection is that they said it was an esports too early?
Regardless, it did turn into one, in fact one of the biggest international esports to date.
|
On October 18 2012 06:04 EggYsc2 wrote:
Here is a simple fact that SC2 is declining.
IdrA has 2.3k viewers right now and his stream has been live for atleast an hour.
He used to get 7k easy with an all time high of 14k...
yeah
Same with Stephano.
5k~ yesterday.
Really 5k?
Both idra and stephano used to avg 15-16k with idra hitting a high of 20k
|
On October 18 2012 06:19 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 06:17 baba1 wrote:On October 18 2012 06:05 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 18 2012 06:03 Herry wrote:On October 18 2012 05:56 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 18 2012 05:53 baba1 wrote:
People are talking about how BW was not designed to be an e-sport.
Well obviously it was not as the word e-sport probably didn't even exist back then!
People didn't even know that e-sports would even exist someday let alone how to make one.
Well, modern Blizzard are arrogant enough to claim to be able to create e-sports.
Like I said in previous posts, a company does not make an e-sport.
The community -and the community ONLY- elects what games are e-sports worthy.
I find it very pretentious and arrogant of Blizzard to have such claims. Sounds like you're playing with semantics. They made SC2, SC2 is an esports, so they've made an e-sport. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ BW had such a small foreign scene. SC2 exploded the foreign scene and now it's one of the biggest esports scene. #SaveHOTS the international scene is insignificant when compared to broodwar in South Korea 10 years ago. He is completely right. You dont create an esport, esports are people. Developers create games. Still feel like it's just a semantic argument. Valve created DOTA and CS:GO with E-sports as a driving force. Nothing wrong with that. I honestly couldn't care less about semantics. They made Dota2 and Cs:GO HOPING it would make it to an e-sport. How many times will I have to say it: you can't create an e-sport, games will become one if it has to. What if they self-proclaimed e-sports turn out to be shitty games that noone plays? Are they still e-sports just because the game devs said so? Come on guys... This is the most pointless argument in this thread. So your objection is that they said it was an esports too early? Regardless, it did turn into one, in fact one of the biggest international esports to date.
I think arguing with you is the only pointless thing here.
We are all here talking about how SC2 is dying and how we want to save it and you are just like Nah it's perfectly fine it's one of the biggest e-sport. Let's see how fast one of the biggest e-sport can fall if nothing is done.
|
On October 18 2012 06:20 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 06:04 EggYsc2 wrote:
Here is a simple fact that SC2 is declining.
IdrA has 2.3k viewers right now and his stream has been live for atleast an hour.
He used to get 7k easy with an all time high of 14k...
yeah
Same with Stephano.
5k~ yesterday.
Really 5k? Both idra and stephano used to avg 15-16k with idra hitting a high of 20k
idra also used to rarely stream. same with stephano. now they both stream much more regularly.
|
On October 18 2012 04:23 Belha wrote:
This is pure 100% correct/true.
Props for TT1 or Destiny to make it so freaking clear.
Well it's all Destiny tho. But yeah well everyone knew this more or less so.
|
On October 18 2012 06:19 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 06:17 baba1 wrote:On October 18 2012 06:05 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 18 2012 06:03 Herry wrote:On October 18 2012 05:56 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 18 2012 05:53 baba1 wrote:
People are talking about how BW was not designed to be an e-sport.
Well obviously it was not as the word e-sport probably didn't even exist back then!
People didn't even know that e-sports would even exist someday let alone how to make one.
Well, modern Blizzard are arrogant enough to claim to be able to create e-sports.
Like I said in previous posts, a company does not make an e-sport.
The community -and the community ONLY- elects what games are e-sports worthy.
I find it very pretentious and arrogant of Blizzard to have such claims. Sounds like you're playing with semantics. They made SC2, SC2 is an esports, so they've made an e-sport. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ BW had such a small foreign scene. SC2 exploded the foreign scene and now it's one of the biggest esports scene. #SaveHOTS the international scene is insignificant when compared to broodwar in South Korea 10 years ago. He is completely right. You dont create an esport, esports are people. Developers create games. Still feel like it's just a semantic argument. Valve created DOTA and CS:GO with E-sports as a driving force. Nothing wrong with that. I honestly couldn't care less about semantics. They made Dota2 and Cs:GO HOPING it would make it to an e-sport. How many times will I have to say it: you can't create an e-sport, games will become one if it has to. What if they self-proclaimed e-sports turn out to be shitty games that noone plays? Are they still e-sports just because the game devs said so? Come on guys... This is the most pointless argument in this thread. So your objection is that they said it was an esports too early? Regardless, it did turn into one, in fact one of the biggest international esports to date.
I dont think its pointless at all, I think the biggest reason why ALL of Blizzards games have made a turn for the worst, is they are trying to please way too many people. They want to cater all of their games to Casuals, and to hardcore competitive pro-gamers. They will make an "esports" but make it easier to play, make it look new and improved but remove all the sense of fun and community from its last game.
|
One thing about SC2 is that you're always supposed to be at 100% focus. In other games the excitement level varies a lot more.
So like in dota you're just farming a bit, then a gank or teamfight happens and you're 100% focused and afterwards you can relax a bit again. Same with fps if you die and are just waiting to respawn etc.
When playing SC2 I just feel so stressed out.
I'm guessing there's more people who feel like this and that's one of the reasons why the more casual games are slowly taking over.
|
On October 18 2012 06:22 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 06:20 phodacbiet wrote:On October 18 2012 06:04 EggYsc2 wrote:
Here is a simple fact that SC2 is declining.
IdrA has 2.3k viewers right now and his stream has been live for atleast an hour.
He used to get 7k easy with an all time high of 14k...
yeah
Same with Stephano.
5k~ yesterday.
Really 5k? Both idra and stephano used to avg 15-16k with idra hitting a high of 20k idra also used to rarely stream. same with stephano. now they both stream much more regularly.
I think this is a big reason for their viewer decline. I used to watch Idra's stream every time he did it because it was so rare for it to happen. Now it is normally like 4 hours every two days and there are plenty of times where I don't really watch it. Not because I have stopped following SC2, but just because it is always there when I want it so him streaming isn't as much of a treat.
|
Although I think Destiny is an asshole and is self-righteous to the point of being unbearable, the fact that he is using his fanbase/e-popularity for something actually useful is something I am so relieved for.
As others have so perfectly pointed out, I used to be a 1v1 addict, stopped playing because of school/not enough time, then when I decided to get back on the wagon, I got hulk-smashed 2-25+ games or something like that in masters. All I wanted were some casual games where I won't get 4-gated by every toss, or get 11/11 SCV rushed by every MMR-whore terran on the ladder, and actually learn the meta again. I would then be so tilted by cheese that when a normal macro game would pop-up, I'd choke HARD to where I don't remember what I was practicing in the first place. But I couldn't, I didn't, and by the time I started going positive in games, I was facing people who were basically plat level (didn't challenge me at all, just wasted my time).
What the hell happened to joining lobbies of people wanting to practice PvT or TvZ and request their practice to be against a specific build or strategy - then possibly meet a e-friend or practice partner in the process?
Now it's automated countdown into someone random playing random race on random map. You have about 3 minutes to chat with someone before it actually becomes disadvantageous, and then you W or L, gaining meaningless points on a ladder that doesn't really matter until you get to high master/GM.
Yeah... I would easily trade my awesome experiences playing 3v3 ZC or 4v4 BGH and meeting the people I met ANY day than this bullshit.
And thats only a tiny fraction of the problems I have with JUST the social aspect of the game. Seriously, just admit you fucked up, make BW 2.0 with better graphics and the same B.net as before, and instantly the game is 200% better.
|
Well, if it is up to Blizzard, then we are doomed.
D3 was a total disaster, they don't know how to make fun games anymore.
I also want to say, that I spent a lot of time making a map for WC3 (Coming of the Horde) and enjoyed both the process and the fan base that came out of it. But the SC2 editor is much more difficult to learn to use, and I never really bothered to learn it (though I did make one map...). Furthermore the Arcade is a disaster, so even if I did make more maps, they would never get the chance to be played.
|
On October 18 2012 06:14 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 06:04 EggYsc2 wrote:
Here is a simple fact that SC2 is declining.
IdrA has 2.3k viewers right now and his stream has been live for atleast an hour.
He used to get 7k easy with an all time high of 14k...
yeah
Same with Stephano.
5k~ yesterday.
Really 5k? Streaming isn't all that important.
statementsthatarestunninglywrong.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
