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On October 18 2012 05:10 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 05:04 Jealous wrote:On October 18 2012 04:56 VanGarde wrote:On October 18 2012 04:52 EggYsc2 wrote:
As a semi-proffesional I am also making the switch to LoL right now.
There is absolutely no reason for a semi-pro to be dedicating so much time into a dying game.
Not only into a dying game but a heavily flawed game just as destiny stated.
Even if I dont make it pro in LoL(though I dont think it is that hard) I have MUCH much more fun playing league of legends even if I do lose games and lose rating.
The community is better
everything seems better for Riot and LoL future.
It makes me sad a little because SC2 is the better game.
But Riot is the better company and in the long run that's what wins. Any argument you could possibly use to suggest that sc2 is a dying game could easily be applied to League as well. In reality, all games are dying. This is the norm, this is how the gaming industry works. Broodwar was dying since the first day it was released as well. All that matters is how long it takes for a game to die, and anything you say is only speculation until you are commenting on a a game after it's death has taken place. Rofl BW had peak viewership somewhere around 2006-2008. Saying that it (or any other game) was dying from day 1 is retarded. I don't think you understand what I am saying, I am saying that every game from the second it is released has a finite life span. How long that life span is might vary but by simple laws of nature every game will die eventually. Sc2 will die, LoL will die, dota 2 will die. They will all be replaced with other games. No one is in a position atm to accurately determine which one will die first. Actually interesting fact, LoL was really popular when it first went through beta and for a while after release but then started struggling, people predicted with just as much certainty as people are spouting out here that LoL would in fact be dead very soon because of the superiority of HoN. Now LoL is a very popular esports game and people are acting as if it's lifespan is assured for infinity while also somehow not being able to comprehend that starcraft could go through ups and downs. I don't think starcraft is in that position sc2 is still the biggest esports game by far. Maybe LoL has more viewers on individual events but it has less tournaments, and less paying viewers. In the end I don't care I personally like to have both hockey, basketball and football on tv. I would also like an esportsscene that has both rts, moba and fps. I think that in fact it is a sign of a healthy industry that we have several games. The people who are so narrowminded that they think there can only be one competitive game and all others have to die. I don't know what to say to you.
Ah, I just misunderstood then. I don't think there should be only one competitive game - I just wish that they didn't overlap, fight each other (developers and fans alike), and oust each other (like SC2 vs. SC1 in Korea). Nothing to be done about that really.
Btw, Chess seems to have an infinite lifespan, same with Tetris - I don't see why a game like BW couldn't have the same.
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On October 18 2012 05:04 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 04:53 Jealous wrote:
People who are stating that UMS is the reason why BW survived are being subjective and ignorant. The game survived because of the proscene, BECAUSE of its competitive nature.
SC2 is the opposite. It is dying because it is like a BW UMS that is being forced to hold water as a competitive sport. This is the most ironic thing I've heard today.
I fail to see the irony, please explain? ^^
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Russian Federation7 Posts
Major gameplay problems i see with sc2 is that its neither too fun to play or watch.
Never played BW multiplayer, but for some reason watching korean leagues was extremely fun.
Played WC3 multi abit, was semi-decent, could watch wc3 tournaments/commentaries for basically days. Even watching replays of good players was interesting (which i never did in sc2). The sc2 is pretty much unwatchable game, its exremly boring and stale, and the only time i watch it is when i bet money on the match.
The main reasons i cant bring myself to watch it :
1. The game feels too unstable and volatile. When i watch a game and root for my fav player, i don't want to see him lose just because of the BO loss or w/e. I could be wrong, but the games usually get decided by something retarded that i cannot fully explain. Thats why the most hyped matches turn out to be extremely boring and clunky almost every time.
On the contrast, it was absolutely awesome watch WC3. When top koreans COMPLETELY crushed random people with pure micro. When MadFrog came back from korea and dominated the scene so hard noone could stop him. When the uknown top player smurfed and made it into 150-0 or so on on the ladder and people would guess who it is. It was brilliant.
I just don't see same things in sc2, the good player can be taken down by the mediocre player too often it seems. It just looks silly when casters hype someone as the "best player in the world", and yet he seems so reachable, so much like the rest of the player base. Something is defiantly wrong with that.
2. Almost zero "Omg Did you see that?" / Epic micro moments.
This is where the game fails the hardest. Even tho casters try to hype supposedly "hard" micro moves ("HUGE FUNGAL"), it just makes me laugh every time i see it. There are too much terrible abilities and units in game that are not exiting in the slightest. The only thing that is decent is marine splits or baneling landmines. I dont need to tell you much much superior BW was in that category.
But perhaps even more so was WC3. There were entire MOVIES made of amazing micro moments. These things make games fun to watch, and play.
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In the end, what blizzards needs to do:
1. Scrap the whole HotS concept and delay it's release.
2. Admit that the game needs MASSIVE overhaul and actually listen to the community.
3. Have balls to do drastic changes, like deleting terrible units (colossus comes to mind).
4. Make the multiplayer part of the game F2P or very cheap
Oh, and needs to be done outside the game :
Stop the fucking tournament spam. Please. Noone cares about it anyway. We do not need 10 sc2 tournaments per month.
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On October 18 2012 05:03 Ssoulle wrote:
I feel like chipping into this discussion. I didn't ever touch BW but was aware of it and avoided it because I prefered AOE.
SC2 was the most fun when there were many more people playing it. I was much more interested in 2010 then I am now.
Seeing the average active players drop on SC2 ranks each month during 2011 was depressing. It was obvious that the casual players which are the absolute key ingredient to any game, had moved on.
SC2 sold something like 3.5m+ copies. How many active players are there now, I check SC2 ranks and its around 275k ish across the world give or take [For Active 1v1 players]. Most of these players are "hardcore" players at this point. I know there are some people who just play team games but thats a different story at this stage.
That means we can safely say about 3 million casual players bought the game and quit over the last 1-2 years.
Theres your problem. Thats your viewership right there gone.
The other problem is that Blizzard already made the big bucks on Launch, thats the ideal situation for them. People who buy the game and quit very early not using the free online. That costs them money.
I don't think E sports as a whole will fail. LoL has a big player base and seems to appeal to a broader range of people [ from the people I know personally who have played it ] It seems to be the new Farmvile. Super popular and super easy to pick up and play. The "Farmville" effect needs to be studied more.
Yes, community are what make games fun.
This is true for any games that has multiplayer and even some single players games are a really nice social aspect.
Diablo 2 was amazingly fun when it had 1 million players constantly logged on worldwide. D2 is the same game as 10 years ago (or almost) minus it's amazing community. Would you go ahead and play 8 hours of D2 per days like back in the D2 peak? No, because without it's community there is no fun. Same for BW. Same for SC2 and D3, name them all, its a golden rule that apply on any multiplayer game. Community makes the game fun.
Dont care about your community and even the best game in the history of humanity will die.
Unfortunatly, very few game developpers in 2012 know about this golden rule. Some know about it but just ignore it anyway to shove more shit that THEY think is good. Being stubborn in this industry will get them nowhere.
All that mostly because of the Ghost town that is Bnet 2.0
It's almost like Blizzard did this on purpose...
'Separate them so they are easier to rule'
'Community has more power than us? Let's fix that'
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The custom map part is so true.
Remember that LoL, and of course Dota 2 would never have existed without Warcraft 3.
And HOTS is so not-interesting...
In one word, agreed.
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/agree
Here is hoping that they fix the game.
Also blizzard, COLOSSUS.
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I'm a huge fan of this post. Blizzard HAS been trying to appeal to the casual gamer... but in the wrong avenues. They do so by forcing 1v1s and ladder onto casual players who see no appeal in playing melee. What thy should be doing is keeping melee for the ultra competitive players making it "FACE FU*KING ULTRA COMPETITIVE" while making game search and ums map design way easier. Custom maps is how SC2 should be sold to casual gamers, NOT 1v1 LADDER!
Solution:
- Up the skill cap for 1v1. Fuck the casual gamer.
- Blizzard releases way better ums maps and inspires mapmakers to make user customized ones way better than the likes of nexus wars.
- Fix the custom map search interface. Even the shitty Bnet features of 1.0 was more appealing than this silly sugar coated nonfunctional "arcade". The problem is that it's ridiculously hard for a new map to become popularized in this jungle. Bnet 1.0 forced new maps with fewer plays onto the radar of players by just simply mixing all the maps in a list in order of which they were created.
Projected problems:
- If the growth of the game is dependent on competitive game viewing, why would casual gamer want to even watch melee if they have no drive to actually play it themselves?
My response: Look at sc:bw, this worked fine. Just use the same model. Custom games are the segway to interest in the rest of the game on a competitive level. I have plenty of friends who appreciate the sheer skill it takes to play this game even though they do not play/ suck at 1v1 themselves. 1v1 should be a skill showcase. Not light and sound entertainment. If you want that go watch a movie or play customs.
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Of course you do because it's coming from you.
Your post was just as ignorant because you aren't looking at the bigger picture.
There are many different subdivisions within the BW community including BGH players and the UMS community.
There are many things that BW had going for it.
All Destiny and many others are saying to make the game more accessible and sociable.
Don't put words into people's mouths. No one is saying that UMS is the reason why BW survived lmao.
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For BW I watched all the content: OSL, MSL, PL and had a ton of favorite players (most of which retired before/during the transition). For SC2 I just glance over results and don't really care who wins. I'm just not interested in SC2 as a game. They would have to change the whole engine to be more like BW at this point for me to be interested again.
Mostly playing MOBA/Fighting games nowadays. D:
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I still think SC2 will survive. Maybe it won't be the biggest esport but it will be there. Eventually it will be followed by SC3 or WC4. There simply aren't any notable competitors in the RTS genre and I find it VERY hard to believe that a new game could ever gain significant ground. The reason why I don't see LoL and the likes as an immediate threat/alternative is that I simply don't enjoy watching (no hatin) MOBAs at all and I think there are loads of people like me in the scene. Where would we go?
And if commercial interest on a larger scale is lost then.. so what? We'll still have a (smaller?) community. We'll still have smaller tournaments.
Things could also turn out way better and grow bigger than ever. Legacy of the Void could be the tits and HotS will sustain us even if it's kinda meh. One thing is for sure: there will NEVER be an another BW, a game that lasts 10+ years. Those days are gone.
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On October 18 2012 05:08 EggYsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 05:04 MVega wrote:I love how people act like because something isn't the #1 eSport it's doomed. Sorry guys but as long as eSports has more than one game, there is going to be a most popular game and then every other eSport is going to be ... *gasp* less popular. You know which one isn't going to be the most popular though? One with an extremely negative community. I like StarCraft 2 and eSports and I support both, but what's going on right now in the community is pretty sad. The FGC, you know those guys with $50 first prizes at tournaments + an arcade stick they already own, those guys with like no corporate sponsorship, fewer stream viewers than us (but manage to put up competitive numbers for major events), totally in denial about their games being eSports, etc - Those guys are now making fun of us. Sad times, sad sad times. I'm surprised how easily swayed people are. What do you think MVP might say about the state of StarCraft? I agree with you, but that seems to be a skill that's been lost recently. Sadly this is honestly how the youth is in the west today. if its not #1 it wont get the most money if it doesnt get the most money people wont play it as much if people dont play it as much their wont be the highest level of play if it doesnt have the highest level of play it will get disregarded as a good esport if its not a good esport it starts to die and eventually fall off it. does. matter.
The FGC says hello. Very rarely are their first place prizes over $1,000 and yet people play and people watch the events and people are passionate about the games. Shit most tournaments have a total prize pool of $1,500 or less split EIGHT WAYS and an arcade stick worth $125~ and people still travel from all over to compete and watch. It's not all about the money believe it or not, if people genuinely enjoy something they will watch it.
You completely glossed over the fact that if there is more than 1 eSport, which there is and always will be, only one of them can be #1 and that does NOT instantly make the others irrelevant. If this community is going to give it up because another game is successful we are fucked, and we'll deserve it. Blizzard keeps working on HotS and they keep making changes trying to make shit better and it's our job as a community to keep letting them know where we disagree with them, but throwing our arms up in the air and complaining that Blizzard doesn't care enough and that if Blizzard doesn't listen to all of our demands no matter how incredibly stupid some of them are is not at all constructive or helpful for them or us.
On October 18 2012 05:26 d00p wrote:
I still think SC2 will survive. Maybe it won't be the biggest esport but it will be there. Eventually it will be followed by SC3 or WC4. There simply aren't any notable competitors in the RTS genre and I find it VERY hard to believe that a new game could ever gain significant ground. The reason why I don't see LoL and the likes as an immediate threat/alternative is that I simply don't enjoy watching (no hatin) MOBAs at all and I think there are loads of people like me in the scene. Where would we go?
And if commercial interest on a larger scale is lost then.. so what? We'll still have a (smaller?) community. We'll still have smaller tournaments.
Things could also turn out way better and grow bigger than ever. Legacy of the Void could be the tits and HotS will sustain us even if it's kinda meh. One thing is for sure: there will NEVER be an another BW, a game that lasts 10+ years. Those days are gone.
Exactly this. The worst case scenario for SC2 is that it ends up like BW was in the west. That is to say it had an active and lively community but it's overall popularity wasn't stellar. Like it or not the reason most people who hate SC2 stick around the community is because they're RTS fans and SC2 is quite honestly the only RTS game worth playing right now.
I'm not hating on MOBAs either, and I too can't stand to watch them. Playing them is one thing, but watching them is extremely dull.
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On October 18 2012 05:03 1handsomE wrote:
I'm surprised how easily swayed people are. What do you think MVP might say about the state of StarCraft?
Think for yourselves.
He will probably say something like:
"meongcheonghan baboga dagchyeossibal , dangsin-eun museun mal-eulhago issneunji moleugess eobs-seubnida"
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If you enjoy playing SC2 keep playing SC2, I don't see how your game not having the most viewers on live streams means it's competitive scene is dying.
Personally I don't enjoy playing SC2 so I play other RTS games, the competitive communities aren't as big and the prize money is a tiny fraction of what SC2 players make but I'm having fun and I believe that if you're having fun playing a game that's all that matters right?
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I don't think these points are as valid as you put it. Your stuf about sales is right, your stuff about korea is right, but your stuff about casual gamers is incredibly far off. The main focus of your stuff is that players need outside stimulation, other than the thrill of the game to keep playing, and to keep getting better. Adding that is a fantastic business model, but it has nothing to do with the stagnation of eSports. To increase eSports, and the quality of games that are being played,you need to have people who are motivated by the prospect of getting better. And while having more people who play the games is good, the reality of the situation is that the majority of the player base of LoL aren't eSports fans. All of my friends who play LoL, I'm not one of them, don't watch eSports at all, I'm the only one. So even if Riot/Valve constantly promotes their esports events, that will only increase Riot/valve's tournament viewership. I don't think I've ever seen a DotA 2 stream outside of the International eclipse Sc2's numbers. The same thing goes for Lol. That being said, Blizz does need to do more with promoting the scene, but in the long run, it will not help. What helps is having PEOPLE promoting the scene. Because no matter how often a company promotes it, we'll want to ignore it. But when a friend of yours talks about how awesome this thing is, you're more likely to check it out.
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Although destiny makes some valid points, especially about how blizzard needs to do more with the community for sc2 to be successful, he is biased. He makes biased comments like "the hots buzz was dead a week after beta release" "competitive games are not fun" and "sc2 has no chance of growing"
honestly, it seems like he is butt-hurt because his sc2 career plummeted when he acted in a manner which major sponsorships found impossible to support. the article is biased and pessimistic. i know redditors love their shitstorms on reddit, but this is TeamLiquid. Starcraft will not die here.
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On October 18 2012 05:26 d00p wrote:
I still think SC2 will survive. Maybe it won't be the biggest esport but it will be there. Eventually it will be followed by SC3 or WC4. There simply aren't any notable competitors in the RTS genre and I find it VERY hard to believe that a new game could ever gain significant ground. The reason why I don't see LoL and the likes as an immediate threat/alternative is that I simply don't enjoy watching (no hatin) MOBAs at all and I think there are loads of people like me in the scene. Where would we go?
And if commercial interest on a larger scale is lost then.. so what? We'll still have a (smaller?) community. We'll still have smaller tournaments.
Things could also turn out way better and grow bigger than ever. Legacy of the Void could be the tits and HotS will sustain us even if it's kinda meh. One thing is for sure: there will NEVER be an another BW, a game that lasts 10+ years. Those days are gone.
how many people will buy sc3 knowing it's the successor to sc2. How many people who buy sc3 will do so hoping for another game similar to bw? The biggest reason sc2 even sold at all was it's name tag.
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On October 18 2012 05:23 StarStruck wrote:
Of course you do because it's coming from you.
Your post was just as ignorant because you aren't looking at the bigger picture.
There are many different subdivisions within the BW community including BGH players and the UMS community.
There are many things that BW had going for it.
All Destiny and many others are saying to make the game more accessible and sociable.
Don't put words into people's mouths. No one is saying that UMS is the reason why BW survived lmao.
"The emphasis on "competitive" is driving SC2 down hard. I literally remember only playing UMS on BW, and maybe playing Melee a few times. UMS allowed for the community to express their creativity and have some fun with the game, while SC2 forces all players to resort to Arcade, which is a mess of half-copied ideas from BW UMS games and some fairly sloppy ones. There is no longer any care for the community as much as in BW, and the lack of any real action by Blizzard is dragging SC2 down. "
Many sentiments like this are found in this thread.
I agree that there are many subdivisions in BW but the ONLY one that maintained its status as a competitive game is *oh no* the competitive 1v1 scene! The rest are no different from minor communities that survive in old games to this day, like in Total Annihilation or Mech Warrior 2. It was because of the proscene that BW had name value (well, it is a great game as well), not because of UMS or BGH. Hence, it is the proscene that was integral to the 'survival' of the game. With just UMS and BGH, the game is as dead as TA and MW2.
I can understand that people want more Farmville in their SC2. That's exactly what I thought Blizzard had already achieved but this thread proved to me otherwise, and I find that somewhat reassuring. At the same time I can see why people are upset about this.
Don't be hostile and please use Quote function ^^
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On October 18 2012 05:26 MVega wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 05:08 EggYsc2 wrote:On October 18 2012 05:04 MVega wrote:I love how people act like because something isn't the #1 eSport it's doomed. Sorry guys but as long as eSports has more than one game, there is going to be a most popular game and then every other eSport is going to be ... *gasp* less popular. You know which one isn't going to be the most popular though? One with an extremely negative community. I like StarCraft 2 and eSports and I support both, but what's going on right now in the community is pretty sad. The FGC, you know those guys with $50 first prizes at tournaments + an arcade stick they already own, those guys with like no corporate sponsorship, fewer stream viewers than us (but manage to put up competitive numbers for major events), totally in denial about their games being eSports, etc - Those guys are now making fun of us. Sad times, sad sad times. I'm surprised how easily swayed people are. What do you think MVP might say about the state of StarCraft? I agree with you, but that seems to be a skill that's been lost recently. Sadly this is honestly how the youth is in the west today. if its not #1 it wont get the most money if it doesnt get the most money people wont play it as much if people dont play it as much their wont be the highest level of play if it doesnt have the highest level of play it will get disregarded as a good esport if its not a good esport it starts to die and eventually fall off it. does. matter. The FGC says hello. Very rarely are their first place prizes over $1,000 and yet people play and people watch the events and people are passionate about the games. Shit most tournaments have a total prize pool of $1,500 or less split EIGHT WAYS and an arcade stick worth $125~ and people still travel from all over to compete and watch. It's not all about the money believe it or not, if people genuinely enjoy something they will watch it. You completely glossed over the fact that if there is more than 1 eSport, which there is and always will be, only one of them can be #1 and that does NOT instantly make the others irrelevant. If this community is going to give it up because another game is successful we are fucked, and we'll deserve it. Blizzard keeps working on HotS and they keep making changes trying to make shit better and it's our job as a community to keep letting them know where we disagree with them, but throwing our arms up in the air and complaining that Blizzard doesn't care enough and that if Blizzard doesn't listen to all of our demands no matter how incredibly stupid some of them are is not at all constructive or helpful for them or us. Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 05:26 d00p wrote:
I still think SC2 will survive. Maybe it won't be the biggest esport but it will be there. Eventually it will be followed by SC3 or WC4. There simply aren't any notable competitors in the RTS genre and I find it VERY hard to believe that a new game could ever gain significant ground. The reason why I don't see LoL and the likes as an immediate threat/alternative is that I simply don't enjoy watching (no hatin) MOBAs at all and I think there are loads of people like me in the scene. Where would we go?
And if commercial interest on a larger scale is lost then.. so what? We'll still have a (smaller?) community. We'll still have smaller tournaments.
Things could also turn out way better and grow bigger than ever. Legacy of the Void could be the tits and HotS will sustain us even if it's kinda meh. One thing is for sure: there will NEVER be an another BW, a game that lasts 10+ years. Those days are gone. Exactly this. The worst case scenario for SC2 is that it ends up like BW was in the west. That is to say it had an active and lively community but it's overall popularity wasn't stellar. Like it or not the reason most people who hate SC2 stick around the community is because they're RTS fans and SC2 is quite honestly the only RTS game worth playing right now. I'm not hating on MOBAs either, and I too can't stand to watch them. Playing them is one thing, but watching them is extremely dull.
What we fear is not sc2 ending like bw in the west. We're fearing that exact thing happening in the east. sc2 is not successful in korea and china etc and will continue being unsuccessful until blizzard fixes the game. What would an sc2 scene be without korea? How many people will watch foreign tournaments knowing it's all a fluke because the best players in the world no longer play the game? sc2 must thrive in korea for sc2 to live at all
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So glad that desiny makes this kind of thread. Actually nice to see that some people can use logic. There have been way too many threads on TL on how we can grow the scene... This is so stupid, you can't. The only way the scene can grow is too increase the size of the scene, and only BLizzard can make that happen.
An improved organiazation won't grow the scene. Actually SC2 is already extremely organized (relatively speaking) as TL makes it extremely easy to follow everything all the time.
Sc2 is dying and will continue to do so. My sales estimates for HOTS is around 2-3 milion, compared to the roughly 6 million of sc2, and HOTS will not even matter in terms of sc2 specularity, as it won't bring new people to the scene. It will only increase the duration slightly.
The best thing blizzard could do for esports and sc2 is to change the business model and rework bnet 2.0. Blizzard should actually make money out of esports, as this will give them an incentivize to make a great esport game, and by reworking bnet 2.0 it will appear better to casuals. Blizzard "only" made roughly $40-50 million on Sc2 (in terms of present value profit), and this is peanuts in the big picture. WIth the current businss model they just use the esports-thing as a PR-trick.
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This is what happens when you design a game to be an e-sport.
SC1 wasn't designed for e-sports, neither was WC3, yet both were HUGE e-sports. Why? Because fun games will have large player bases and then easily become competitive. It's a very natural process that doesn't need all the bullshit Blizzard did. They stripped the game of anything that made their previous RTS games last.
SC2 has no longevity. SC2 has no appeal to ANYONE but full-time progamers in my opinion, at least in the long run. And a game that only appeals to 0.01% of the potential player base is bound to fail.
This along with the fact that HotS is nowhere near a BW or TFT spells doom for SC2.
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EPT
