EPT
I would also like to know how specific matchups look like. For example how do "foreign" terrans measure up to Koreans in TvT, TvZ, TvP etc.
Analysis of Koreans vs non-Koreans at major events - Page 4
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
I would also like to know how specific matchups look like. For example how do "foreign" terrans measure up to Koreans in TvT, TvZ, TvP etc. | ||
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nemonic
132 Posts
 I think one thing that we can take away from the stats is that it's mostly the better practice environment that makes Koreans better that the (lazy) foreigners. Practice is something that pays off in the long run (talent is not for example) which is exactly what we see here. | ||
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zanga
659 Posts
It's certainly possible to implement something like it.. However an interesting source of data for "if non-koreans are ganing on koreans" is the map win rate! Losing 1-2 instead of 0-2 is always a step in the right direction. The data "seems to be showing" that this has seen no increase in the last year however  .<3 Data and numbers <3 | ||
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rgbAndraxxus
32 Posts
Well that should be a pretty good indication that the Koreans are mostly losing to foreigners that had access to their game style while they did not see all that much a specific foreigners style, of course there are some foreigners they might be interested in but usually they consider that a foreigner is easier to win against than a Korean. With good reason one might say considering past results Except for a few foreigners that can keep up with the Koreans we see a lot of dominance in almost every tournament, and there is a higher chance of that increasing in the future, either that or some sort of separation where we would have only a few Koreans so that they don't take top 8 each time, somehow I just don't see that many non-Koreans improving fast in the near future mostly due to the practice hours they constantly put in the game. | ||
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Spidinko
Slovakia1174 Posts
As has been said, there are many bad foreign players in many of those tournaments. If you want to get more accurate results, you'd need to select pro foreigners and compare them to koreans. For instance, compare matches of topX foreigners from TLPD against koreans. Koreans have the statistical advantage that they don't have bad players competing against foreigners. Something that is not true for us. | ||
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Kahlgar
411 Posts
Just taking every major events with online/offline games, regardless of how strong the foreigner field was (lolMLG), how good the Koreans were (invited vs qualified) and just blindly discarding every non major events (while some of them are a lot more telling than some major ones) is not going to give any meaningful results. That's not to mention the influence of matchups, mappools, balance issues at various times or the simple fact that the sample size is still very limited (tho it's getting bigger/more reliable over time so that's something). | ||
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johnny123
521 Posts
On September 08 2012 23:40 Spidinko wrote: These stats aren't very representative. If you pick top foreigners vs the rest of the foreigners you might get a similar results. As has been said, there are many bad foreign players in many of those tournaments. If you want to get more accurate results, you'd need to select pro foreigners and compare them to koreans. For instance, compare matches of topX foreigners from TLPD against koreans. Koreans have the statistical advantage that they don't have bad players competing against foreigners. Something that is not true for us. quoted just for you On September 07 2012 11:29 red4ce wrote: From the original website: So bad foreigners were already filtered out from the calculations. Besides code B and code A level Koreans participate in foreign tournaments and more than hold their own. Guys like Revival, Sound, First, Sleep, Inori, Hyun, Hack, etc are all code A or B yet have made deep runs in foreign tournaments. I daresay the gap between Korean 33-64 and foreigner 33-64 is even greater than the gap between Korean 1-32 and foreigner 1-32. | ||
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Aulisemia
United States123 Posts
On September 07 2012 09:59 Fionn wrote: So you're telling me that Koreans, those folk from Asia, are better than everyone else? Shit. Just. Got. Serious. There's value in gathering analytical data for the purpose of studying a theory to come to some conclusion about the validity of the idea. It's called the scientific method, no need to be a douche about it. Really nice work, as someone said below there seems to be this idea that the gap between foreigners and Koreans is closing - obviously that isn't the case at all. | ||
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Anomi
Sweden149 Posts
The foreigner seen have developed allot over these years and going full time playing sc2 is allot better now. I believe that in 2 years there won’t be a big difference between full time sc2 Korean pros and foreigners since the global structure that have been created if form of leuges and teams will eventually make it so foreigners can go full time. This is also why that the stuff for instance EG is doing is really good. They have created a team that can support players going game full time. Facts to note: Korea have about 200 active players according to liqudpedia(not counting kespa players). Europe is around 150 i believe and North america less i believe. That is allot of sc2 players for 1 country. Sweden have a about 30 active players. | ||
CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On September 07 2012 15:13 Greggle wrote: Code S is a damn good representation of the top 32 Koreans. Code S is so competitive at this point that really only the absolute best at any given time make it there with very few exceptions. No. It shows the top 32 players who succeed in preparing for individual matches. | ||
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Shinespark
Chile843 Posts
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revel8
United Kingdom3022 Posts
In September we have IEM Gangzhou, DreamHack Valencia, Code S Season 4 etc. You are just ignoring the data from these coming tournaments which should all be included as part of Q3 2012 data. Either use data or don't. However don't present innaccurate data as it is misleading. | ||
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MyNameIsAlex
Greece827 Posts
Create a list of full time foreigners and only have these guys' games as your sample. Reason is a) You compare apples to oranges when you include games of semi-pros vs full time koreans that payed to travel to the tournament place to fight for the prize.* b) Even more at some tournaments many decent (but nowhere near fulltime pro) make a lucky run to the playoffs and then get stomped. This has happened quite a few times in the past. And your filter is gonna let them through. *: In Korea the quantity of full time pros are many times more than the rest of the world. While we have many decent semi pros, we lack in the amount of top tier players (Stephano, Nerchio, Mana, NaNi etc. etc.). This is hard to do, since you can't remember who was full time in '10 or in '11, but it will give a better representation of the current situation imo. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23579 Posts
On September 09 2012 01:28 MyNameIsAlex wrote: Seeing that you filtered out the first rounds of tournamnts, in order to filter out the :"very bad" foreigners, I would suggest something different: Create a list of full time foreigners and only have these guys' games as your sample. Reason is a) You compare apples to oranges when you include games of semi-pros vs full time koreans that payed to travel to the tournament place to fight for the prize.* b) Even more at some tournaments many decent (but nowhere near fulltime pro) make a lucky run to the playoffs and then get stomped. This has happened quite a few times in the past. And your filter is gonna let them through. *: In Korea the quantity of full time pros are many times more than the rest of the world. While we have many decent semi pros, we lack in the amount of top tier players (Stephano, Nerchio, Mana, NaNi etc. etc.). This is hard to do, since you can't remember who was full time in '10 or in '11, but it will give a better representation of the current situation imo. But if you only use full time foreigner pros, top foreigners like nerchio (or mana until recently) who are not playing full time won't be counted as well, among foreigners full time does not equal top foreigner. Suppy and illusion are examples for NA. Edit: Just realised the same is true for Koreans like Polt, so yeah it's really hard to make a cut. | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8312 Posts
On September 07 2012 10:07 xrapture wrote: You'd be surprised of the amount of people that think the "gap" is closing. It's getting bigger and bigger. Take any player on a Korean team and he's as good or better than the best of the best foreigners (still makes me sick that the recent power rankings had Nerchio and Stephano both as top 10 in the world ><) Stephano is top ten. Just look at every tournament he has entered in the last two years. | ||
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TsGBruzze
Sweden1190 Posts
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Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
On September 07 2012 10:27 TAMinator wrote: The only thing I find interesting is why foreigner had a big increase in win rate @ 2012 Q2. Everything else is to be expected At a glance that can probably be attributed to the queen range buff and circumstances where foreign zergs beat korean terrans/protosses more often than the reverse. | ||
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revel8
United Kingdom3022 Posts
On September 09 2012 01:40 Demonhunter04 wrote: At a glance that can probably be attributed to the queen range buff and circumstances where foreign zergs beat korean terrans/protosses more often than the reverse. No, it is just that Q2 2012 had an increase in foreigner win rate. We are still in Q3 2012 so it is too soon to know whether there is a genuine trend or it is just a blip. The OP has jumped the gun in presenting the data for Q3 when it is incomplete and thus a potential distortion. | ||
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theJob
272 Posts
If one were to fit an OLS regression on the material it is obvious that the trend is negative. A linear regression tells us that the relationship between the win percentage of foreigners versus Korean players is declining with roughly 1,6 % per quarter. The regression holds true on a 95% significance level and has an explanationvalue of 0,55 R^2. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i45.tinypic.com/10rv58g.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i48.tinypic.com/2wp8f88.jpg) However after investigating the histogram further it should become obvious that if we want to fit the most accurately representative trend line to the data we have to step away from a linear relation between the two variables. When running a quadratic OLS regression we get much better results than the linear one. There is a statistically significant relation on a 99% significance level and the R^2 value is as high as 0,90. By looking at the scatterplot where the quadratic trendline is fitted I’d have to echo esfiworlds statement that foreigners winpercentage was declining rapidly in the beginning but that it has settled or staring to rise even. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i47.tinypic.com/34y8i6a.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i49.tinypic.com/2iqers1.jpg) So if we are to use a technical term like “trend”, then the data from esfiworld shows that foreigners performance as of late is improving. | ||
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Spidinko
Slovakia1174 Posts
On September 08 2012 23:45 johnny123 wrote: quoted just for you I stand corrected. However, I'm still curious how the statistics would look like if you only considered top notch foreigners. | ||
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