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On September 09 2012 21:12 Incomplet wrote:
Sorry folks, Stephano =/= all foreigners. Look at the bigger picture. You want to look at real inspirational foreigners? Look no further, Mana and Naniwa are here. Many of you have no idea how hard it is to make it in a foreign country where you don't even know the native language. Yet these 2 have have made that giant leap forward, understood that to be the best, they had to practise among the best and most importantly, shown results in the worlds toughest tournament.
No-one is pretending that Stephano is a typical foreigner. There has just been people making untrue claims about him that needed correcting. If every foreigner was at the level of Stephano then there would be parity between Korean and foreign pro-gamers - an even rivalry. There would probably not even be a rivalry between Koreans and foreign players as such, if there was no disparity in ability. It would just be player vs player and nationality would be much more of a side-note.
Everyone knows that Koreans dominate SC2. It is quite clearly the case. This thread is logging the actual results as hard data from which trends can be extrapolated. In your own recent thread on the issue, you have addressed some of the challenges that foreign pro-teams need to overcome in order to help bridge the gap. Your thread is about the possible solutions to bridging that gap.
I am not sure what the OP is intending to do here now that HOTS Beta has come out. It clouds the data and conclusions based on results over the next few months become less secure due to the instability of the Beta process.
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On September 07 2012 15:50 saynomore wrote:
In these days and ages it would be good to separate americans from europeans imo.
Yes, wasn't there a thread that showed europeans had similar or better stats than koreans (and american were far behind)? I think it came from a tournament like MLG.
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Take out online matches... Would give better results imo..
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Like MMR and moving MMR, you can't really talk about 'skill' level until you start mapping these out. Why? Because of luck, variance and discrepancy in skill level. You can argue 'x' beat 'y' at 'z' but really, that's one match, one series, at one place in time. That's like saying well I beat 3 Masters players out of the 15 games I've played today - does that mean I'm at Masters level yet? Seems like everyone is trying to 'rank' skill without really looking at how complicated such a term is.
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On September 09 2012 20:56 revel8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 07:56 xrapture wrote:On September 09 2012 07:51 nvs. wrote:On September 09 2012 06:11 xrapture wrote:On September 09 2012 01:34 TheDougler wrote:On September 07 2012 10:07 xrapture wrote:On September 07 2012 09:59 Fionn wrote:
So you're telling me that Koreans, those folk from Asia, are better than everyone else?
Shit. Just. Got. Serious. You'd be surprised of the amount of people that think the "gap" is closing. It's getting bigger and bigger. Take any player on a Korean team and he's as good or better than the best of the best foreigners (still makes me sick that the recent power rankings had Nerchio and Stephano both as top 10 in the world ><) Stephano is top ten. Just look at every tournament he has entered in the last two years. Only Korean tournament he entered, Blizzard Cup, he got stomped. I don't care about foreign tournaments. There are dozens of players in Korea that don't go to Foreign tournaments that could win them effortlessly over Stephano aka Seal, Freaky, Life + soooo many others. I don't agree with Stephano being top 10. Who would you leave off the list behind him? He was like 10+ spots ahead of Supernova and Byun. That is just utter stupidity. Is that the SuperNova that Stephano beat last week?
you're honestly putting stock into a ZvT that was online to boot?
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On September 10 2012 05:54 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 20:56 revel8 wrote:On September 09 2012 07:56 xrapture wrote:On September 09 2012 07:51 nvs. wrote:On September 09 2012 06:11 xrapture wrote:On September 09 2012 01:34 TheDougler wrote:On September 07 2012 10:07 xrapture wrote:On September 07 2012 09:59 Fionn wrote:
So you're telling me that Koreans, those folk from Asia, are better than everyone else?
Shit. Just. Got. Serious. You'd be surprised of the amount of people that think the "gap" is closing. It's getting bigger and bigger. Take any player on a Korean team and he's as good or better than the best of the best foreigners (still makes me sick that the recent power rankings had Nerchio and Stephano both as top 10 in the world ><) Stephano is top ten. Just look at every tournament he has entered in the last two years. Only Korean tournament he entered, Blizzard Cup, he got stomped. I don't care about foreign tournaments. There are dozens of players in Korea that don't go to Foreign tournaments that could win them effortlessly over Stephano aka Seal, Freaky, Life + soooo many others. I don't agree with Stephano being top 10. Who would you leave off the list behind him? He was like 10+ spots ahead of Supernova and Byun. That is just utter stupidity. Is that the SuperNova that Stephano beat last week? you're honestly putting stock into a ZvT that was online to boot?
As opposed to you who are just ignoring tournament results due to your hatred of Stephano? Or making up lies about Stephano getting stomped in Blizzard Cup?
You obviously did not even watch SuperNova play Stephano with $1000 on the line because 'you don't care about foreign tournaments'. Thankfully most people are not so parochial and narrow-minded.
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On September 07 2012 10:17 Hazuc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 10:14 CosmicSpiral wrote:On September 07 2012 10:06 Hazuc wrote:
They should compare the top 32 koreans with the top 32 foreigners instead. There are many bad foreigners in foreign events while the bad koreans do not participate in those tournaments. No one knows who the top 32 Koreans are. What I'm trying to say is that most koreans playing in foreign tournaments are Code S level which is not really fair for comparisons.
so foreigners playing in GSL is not fair due to jetlag/preparation but koreans playing in foreign tournaments is not fair cus only good players attend...
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On September 09 2012 13:54 Luepert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 13:45 xrapture wrote:On September 09 2012 13:36 Luepert wrote:On September 07 2012 11:23 ref4 wrote:On September 07 2012 11:21 sam05396 wrote:On September 07 2012 10:17 Hazuc wrote:On September 07 2012 10:14 CosmicSpiral wrote:On September 07 2012 10:06 Hazuc wrote:
They should compare the top 32 koreans with the top 32 foreigners instead. There are many bad foreigners in foreign events while the bad koreans do not participate in those tournaments. No one knows who the top 32 Koreans are. What I'm trying to say is that most koreans playing in foreign tournaments are Code S level which is not really fair for comparisons. do you know how big code s is? truth is there are hundreds of Code A Koreans are just as good as their Code S counter parts, and when you add in the KeSPA players, well there are literally thousands of Koreans that are considered the "best of the best". Truth is, there is not even 100 code a players. There are 48. there are literally thousands of Koreans that are considered the "best of the best" This is just utterly false, go on Korean ELO, there are less than 200 pros. And unless you count biybybit, hopetorture, haypro, carn, and artosis as the "best of the best," then not even the top 200 are. There will be 80 Kespa players that will be competing in Code A qualifiers. Would you honestly say most of them aren't better than most foreign pros? The only reason the gap isn't as huge as it was in broodwar is because SC2 is an easier game, with a lower skill cap, hard counters, and more ways to win if you are the weaker mechanical player. Also is why foreign Terrans have performed worse than their Z and P counterparts. Naniwa/Mana mechanics are very similar to MC/Parting because Protoss doesn't have a very demanding mechanical aspect. Same with Stephano/Nerchio to Korean Zergs. Now Taeja or Bomber? No Foreign T even comes close to their mechanics and never will. Did you mean to reply to me? Code a will still be 48 players, also,a ton of the kespa guys are already on the sc2 elo charts from wcs, wcg, osl and pro-league. Literally everything I said still stands. The best of the best will always be a few people. As for Kespa vs foreigner, I think we should wait until they play some matches before assuming anything.
he did cus ur wrong. code A players = players with enuf skill to get into/compete in code A. yeah of course there are only a certain amount of players that can play in code A but there at least a 100 code A level players in korea. examples can be top foreigners and many other skilled former code S/A players that cant even qualify for new code A seasons and Naniwa's poor performance in Code A.
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Whats your conclusion as to why the win rates are declining.
I would assume that, the competitive foreigner player pool isnt as large as the koreans, so players like ret who is constantly on and off with practice is up against the newest korean robot
that and as the game gets more figured out koreans are just fulling ahead with their superior execution and mechanics
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That is cool data. It would be nice to see this described in terms of relative ladder rankings. For example, is an ~25% win ratio similar to mid-masters vs. high-masters, or more like low-diamond vs. high-masters? I'm hoping someone more familiar with MMR (which seems similar to ELO) will be able to give insight.
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there is one hope...find all the korean americans, korean europoeans and get them to play sc2. this is only hope.
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Yeah but most certainly the korean players pool in the stats is way smaller than the non korean pool, because the best koreans only comes to international tournaments.
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On September 07 2012 10:07 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 09:59 Fionn wrote:
So you're telling me that Koreans, those folk from Asia, are better than everyone else?
Shit. Just. Got. Serious. You'd be surprised of the amount of people that think the "gap" is closing. It's getting bigger and bigger. Take any player on a Korean team and he's as good or better than the best of the best foreigners (still makes me sick that the recent power rankings had Nerchio and Stephano both as top 10 in the world ><)
Lol everyone thinks it's closing, I wrote a topic discussing the gap and it was how the gap was rising similar to BW where at first Rekrul and pro players could compete and then eventually only a few people could match them.
Needless to say I got shut down by the community from posters saying the gap was closing : D
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=347826
Excerpt from the thread:
Specific Question SectionShow nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:43 Colocolo wrote:
tbh I think foreigners are more and more closing the gap
especially: Stephano, Sase, Naniwa beating Code-S players in tourneys atm.
So there might be no basis for any discussion?
I believe that is short sited, I can understand the prospect of equality based off recent results from the "stars" of the foreigners but you have to really look at Korea... How many no name players are sitting in Code B waiting to get on? A hell of a lot more up and coming foreigners, Artosis is quoted many times saying that there are some Code B players who could easily play in Code S and make a run but the qualifiers are filled with so much talent. So I'm looking a bit more down the road, 3-5 years, will we have a sea of talent? Or one or two names here and there while all the talent originates from Korea.
Anywho the gap is increasing and soon it will be the same as before 
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France12759 Posts
On September 09 2012 21:12 Incomplet wrote:
Sorry folks, Stephano =/= all foreigners. Look at the bigger picture. You want to look at real inspirational foreigners? Look no further, Mana and Naniwa are here. Many of you have no idea how hard it is to make it in a foreign country where you don't even know the native language. Yet these 2 have have made that giant leap forward, understood that to be the best, they had to practise among the best and most importantly, shown results in the worlds toughest tournament.
Which result did MaNa put in the GSL?
As far as I know he didn't win a match yet. Not saying that it's bad (his group was hardcore, a double GSL champion got eliminated from it...) but he hasn't shown results in the world's toughest tournament yet.
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On September 09 2012 16:28 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 06:11 xrapture wrote:On September 09 2012 01:34 TheDougler wrote:On September 07 2012 10:07 xrapture wrote:On September 07 2012 09:59 Fionn wrote:
So you're telling me that Koreans, those folk from Asia, are better than everyone else?
Shit. Just. Got. Serious. You'd be surprised of the amount of people that think the "gap" is closing. It's getting bigger and bigger. Take any player on a Korean team and he's as good or better than the best of the best foreigners (still makes me sick that the recent power rankings had Nerchio and Stephano both as top 10 in the world ><) Stephano is top ten. Just look at every tournament he has entered in the last two years. Only Korean tournament he entered, Blizzard Cup, he got stomped. I don't care about foreign tournaments. There are dozens of players in Korea that don't go to Foreign tournaments that could win them effortlessly over Stephano aka Seal, Freaky, Life + soooo many others. That's not even remotely correct. First things first, he didn't get stomped at blizzard cup. He went 2-2, same record as MC, beating Hero and the master of ZvZ himself (at the time, as he had recently defeated Nestea in a ZvZ) DRG. So then you go listing a bunch of zergs because you think he has bad ZvZ, and sure, it's his worst matchup, but that doesn't mean that any of those guys are better than him. Freaky is fantastic to watch, but he's retired now because he just couldn't cut it. Seal and Life are streaky at best. Life almost lost to Elfi in a BO5. ELFI! Even IF you focus purely on ones ability to win the mirror matchup as a judge of skill of how good they are (which is completely retarded by the way), stephano has lost to the same sort of players plenty of koreans have lost to. Nerchio has been on fire lately for example, from Dreamhack Winter to WCS Poland to Homestory Cup to IEM, he's been putting up great results and frequently knocking down koreans. His results of course pale in comparison to Stephano's. The fact of the matter is, that while the koreans in general are vastly better than foriegners a select few foreigners are able to truely compete. There's just a handful of them, but while everyone else is busy losing games they're out there inspiring. Stephano has proven to be even better than that though, he beats code S players such as MC, Hero and Polt ALL THE TIME. He's top ten in the world. Look at his fucking bracket in the NASL finals, that was NOT an easy bracket. His blizzard cup run was SO CLOSE to making it into the next round but unfortunately that's not the way the cookie crumbled that time. Lone star clash taking down Polt? MLG Spring Arena where he beat Ryung, MC and Heart? Summer championship beating Rain, Heart, and STC? the list goes on and on. But whatever, if you want to pretend there's pretend none of that happened then you're just delusional and I won't bother arguing with you.
listing a bunch of terran when the TvZ meta was clearly zerg favorite realy helps you prove your point /sarcasm
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On September 09 2012 22:46 Thurken wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 15:50 saynomore wrote:
In these days and ages it would be good to separate americans from europeans imo. Yes, wasn't there a thread that showed europeans had similar or better stats than koreans (and american were far behind)? I think it came from a tournament like MLG.
Yeah in Spring Championship where Stephano placed 6th and Sase 4th Europeans won 53% of their matches against Koreans.
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On September 11 2012 04:11 freerolll wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 16:28 TheDougler wrote:On September 09 2012 06:11 xrapture wrote:On September 09 2012 01:34 TheDougler wrote:On September 07 2012 10:07 xrapture wrote:On September 07 2012 09:59 Fionn wrote:
So you're telling me that Koreans, those folk from Asia, are better than everyone else?
Shit. Just. Got. Serious. You'd be surprised of the amount of people that think the "gap" is closing. It's getting bigger and bigger. Take any player on a Korean team and he's as good or better than the best of the best foreigners (still makes me sick that the recent power rankings had Nerchio and Stephano both as top 10 in the world ><) Stephano is top ten. Just look at every tournament he has entered in the last two years. Only Korean tournament he entered, Blizzard Cup, he got stomped. I don't care about foreign tournaments. There are dozens of players in Korea that don't go to Foreign tournaments that could win them effortlessly over Stephano aka Seal, Freaky, Life + soooo many others. That's not even remotely correct. First things first, he didn't get stomped at blizzard cup. He went 2-2, same record as MC, beating Hero and the master of ZvZ himself (at the time, as he had recently defeated Nestea in a ZvZ) DRG. So then you go listing a bunch of zergs because you think he has bad ZvZ, and sure, it's his worst matchup, but that doesn't mean that any of those guys are better than him. Freaky is fantastic to watch, but he's retired now because he just couldn't cut it. Seal and Life are streaky at best. Life almost lost to Elfi in a BO5. ELFI! Even IF you focus purely on ones ability to win the mirror matchup as a judge of skill of how good they are (which is completely retarded by the way), stephano has lost to the same sort of players plenty of koreans have lost to. Nerchio has been on fire lately for example, from Dreamhack Winter to WCS Poland to Homestory Cup to IEM, he's been putting up great results and frequently knocking down koreans. His results of course pale in comparison to Stephano's. The fact of the matter is, that while the koreans in general are vastly better than foriegners a select few foreigners are able to truely compete. There's just a handful of them, but while everyone else is busy losing games they're out there inspiring. Stephano has proven to be even better than that though, he beats code S players such as MC, Hero and Polt ALL THE TIME. He's top ten in the world. Look at his fucking bracket in the NASL finals, that was NOT an easy bracket. His blizzard cup run was SO CLOSE to making it into the next round but unfortunately that's not the way the cookie crumbled that time. Lone star clash taking down Polt? MLG Spring Arena where he beat Ryung, MC and Heart? Summer championship beating Rain, Heart, and STC? the list goes on and on. But whatever, if you want to pretend there's pretend none of that happened then you're just delusional and I won't bother arguing with you. listing a bunch of terran when the TvZ meta was clearly zerg favorite realy helps you prove your point /sarcasm
Yup, it was during the time when GSTL was 20-1 in favor of Zerg in ZvT and Ryung said he couldn't even beat any Zergs on NA ladder.
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On September 11 2012 04:11 freerolll wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 16:28 TheDougler wrote:On September 09 2012 06:11 xrapture wrote:On September 09 2012 01:34 TheDougler wrote:On September 07 2012 10:07 xrapture wrote:On September 07 2012 09:59 Fionn wrote:
So you're telling me that Koreans, those folk from Asia, are better than everyone else?
Shit. Just. Got. Serious. You'd be surprised of the amount of people that think the "gap" is closing. It's getting bigger and bigger. Take any player on a Korean team and he's as good or better than the best of the best foreigners (still makes me sick that the recent power rankings had Nerchio and Stephano both as top 10 in the world ><) Stephano is top ten. Just look at every tournament he has entered in the last two years. Only Korean tournament he entered, Blizzard Cup, he got stomped. I don't care about foreign tournaments. There are dozens of players in Korea that don't go to Foreign tournaments that could win them effortlessly over Stephano aka Seal, Freaky, Life + soooo many others. That's not even remotely correct. First things first, he didn't get stomped at blizzard cup. He went 2-2, same record as MC, beating Hero and the master of ZvZ himself (at the time, as he had recently defeated Nestea in a ZvZ) DRG. So then you go listing a bunch of zergs because you think he has bad ZvZ, and sure, it's his worst matchup, but that doesn't mean that any of those guys are better than him. Freaky is fantastic to watch, but he's retired now because he just couldn't cut it. Seal and Life are streaky at best. Life almost lost to Elfi in a BO5. ELFI! Even IF you focus purely on ones ability to win the mirror matchup as a judge of skill of how good they are (which is completely retarded by the way), stephano has lost to the same sort of players plenty of koreans have lost to. Nerchio has been on fire lately for example, from Dreamhack Winter to WCS Poland to Homestory Cup to IEM, he's been putting up great results and frequently knocking down koreans. His results of course pale in comparison to Stephano's. The fact of the matter is, that while the koreans in general are vastly better than foriegners a select few foreigners are able to truely compete. There's just a handful of them, but while everyone else is busy losing games they're out there inspiring. Stephano has proven to be even better than that though, he beats code S players such as MC, Hero and Polt ALL THE TIME. He's top ten in the world. Look at his fucking bracket in the NASL finals, that was NOT an easy bracket. His blizzard cup run was SO CLOSE to making it into the next round but unfortunately that's not the way the cookie crumbled that time. Lone star clash taking down Polt? MLG Spring Arena where he beat Ryung, MC and Heart? Summer championship beating Rain, Heart, and STC? the list goes on and on. But whatever, if you want to pretend there's pretend none of that happened then you're just delusional and I won't bother arguing with you. listing a bunch of terran when the TvZ meta was clearly zerg favorite realy helps you prove your point /sarcasm
I listed MC among them, could've also said Hero and Alicia for NASL. I'm saying that he places highly in just about every tournament he enters. He is more consistent than all but maybe nine people on the planet right now and that is because he has mastered two matchups and his ZvZ is improving again.
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On September 11 2012 04:38 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 04:11 freerolll wrote:On September 09 2012 16:28 TheDougler wrote:On September 09 2012 06:11 xrapture wrote:On September 09 2012 01:34 TheDougler wrote:On September 07 2012 10:07 xrapture wrote:On September 07 2012 09:59 Fionn wrote:
So you're telling me that Koreans, those folk from Asia, are better than everyone else?
Shit. Just. Got. Serious. You'd be surprised of the amount of people that think the "gap" is closing. It's getting bigger and bigger. Take any player on a Korean team and he's as good or better than the best of the best foreigners (still makes me sick that the recent power rankings had Nerchio and Stephano both as top 10 in the world ><) Stephano is top ten. Just look at every tournament he has entered in the last two years. Only Korean tournament he entered, Blizzard Cup, he got stomped. I don't care about foreign tournaments. There are dozens of players in Korea that don't go to Foreign tournaments that could win them effortlessly over Stephano aka Seal, Freaky, Life + soooo many others. That's not even remotely correct. First things first, he didn't get stomped at blizzard cup. He went 2-2, same record as MC, beating Hero and the master of ZvZ himself (at the time, as he had recently defeated Nestea in a ZvZ) DRG. So then you go listing a bunch of zergs because you think he has bad ZvZ, and sure, it's his worst matchup, but that doesn't mean that any of those guys are better than him. Freaky is fantastic to watch, but he's retired now because he just couldn't cut it. Seal and Life are streaky at best. Life almost lost to Elfi in a BO5. ELFI! Even IF you focus purely on ones ability to win the mirror matchup as a judge of skill of how good they are (which is completely retarded by the way), stephano has lost to the same sort of players plenty of koreans have lost to. Nerchio has been on fire lately for example, from Dreamhack Winter to WCS Poland to Homestory Cup to IEM, he's been putting up great results and frequently knocking down koreans. His results of course pale in comparison to Stephano's. The fact of the matter is, that while the koreans in general are vastly better than foriegners a select few foreigners are able to truely compete. There's just a handful of them, but while everyone else is busy losing games they're out there inspiring. Stephano has proven to be even better than that though, he beats code S players such as MC, Hero and Polt ALL THE TIME. He's top ten in the world. Look at his fucking bracket in the NASL finals, that was NOT an easy bracket. His blizzard cup run was SO CLOSE to making it into the next round but unfortunately that's not the way the cookie crumbled that time. Lone star clash taking down Polt? MLG Spring Arena where he beat Ryung, MC and Heart? Summer championship beating Rain, Heart, and STC? the list goes on and on. But whatever, if you want to pretend there's pretend none of that happened then you're just delusional and I won't bother arguing with you. listing a bunch of terran when the TvZ meta was clearly zerg favorite realy helps you prove your point /sarcasm I listed MC among them, could've also said Hero and Alicia for NASL. I'm saying that he places highly in just about every tournament he enters. He is more consistent than all but maybe nine people on the planet right now and that is because he has mastered two matchups and his ZvZ is improving again.
Or because there are dozens of Koreans as good or better than him that don't go to Foreign tourneys?
But na bro, he's top 10 for sure!
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On September 11 2012 04:00 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 21:12 Incomplet wrote:
Sorry folks, Stephano =/= all foreigners. Look at the bigger picture. You want to look at real inspirational foreigners? Look no further, Mana and Naniwa are here. Many of you have no idea how hard it is to make it in a foreign country where you don't even know the native language. Yet these 2 have have made that giant leap forward, understood that to be the best, they had to practise among the best and most importantly, shown results in the worlds toughest tournament. Which result did MaNa put in the GSL? As far as I know he didn't win a match yet. Not saying that it's bad (his group was hardcore, a double GSL champion got eliminated from it...) but he hasn't shown results in the world's toughest tournament yet.
He played Up & Down if i am not completely mistaken.
Split with US vs EU vs KR would be somewhat unfair as there are many not so great players going to MLGs but only the better Europeans and the top notch Koreans go there so you can not compare this stuff all that well tbh.
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EPT
