EPT+ Show Spoiler +
The topic kind of drew off course from what I originally intended with over half of the conversation being in regard to "pro" teams. I can see where this train of thought came from, the introduction was leading in off pro players, but the real topic of discussion is actually regarding the Korean scene vs Non-Korean of all skill types and the seemingly increasing gap of general skill within regions and young talent (for instance the not recognized players) and average joe's. I would ask that we move along that topic path please, thank you.
Disclaimer:
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Please note that this thread evolves with the content the community feeds into it, I will be constantly updating this thread on a daily basis, so feel free to drop me a PM if you have something you deem can fit in the community edits. Also realize this thread can easily die without discussion, so it rests in your court how in depth you wish to take this.
As with any discussion talking about improving one’s play (or all of our play in general), balance discussion is always on the forefront of creeping in, this will NOT be a balance discussion, the SC2 forums have enough of that. Please discuss the topics (noted below) or rebut others statements.
If anyone has relevant information they wish to add (or a perspective that either agrees or disagrees with the discussion topics and offers an in depth look into why that is) than I will add it to the mod edits, note that if any of these pictures are copy righted, the holders may PM me and I will remove them (I personally edited a few of them, so I have no issue with removing)
As with any discussion talking about improving one’s play (or all of our play in general), balance discussion is always on the forefront of creeping in, this will NOT be a balance discussion, the SC2 forums have enough of that. Please discuss the topics (noted below) or rebut others statements.
If anyone has relevant information they wish to add (or a perspective that either agrees or disagrees with the discussion topics and offers an in depth look into why that is) than I will add it to the mod edits, note that if any of these pictures are copy righted, the holders may PM me and I will remove them (I personally edited a few of them, so I have no issue with removing)
Chasing the Carrot or the Target?
Goal
To determine why the gap between Korea and Foreigners is growing at a precedence comparable to the early 2000’s for Brood War and some theories regarding why they seem “inherently” better than foreigners.
To determine why the gap between Korea and Foreigners is growing at a precedence comparable to the early 2000’s for Brood War and some theories regarding why they seem “inherently” better than foreigners.
Introduction
Starcraft 2, when first introduce was looked at by many of us as a last hope for a presence from the foreigner community into the major RTS franchise that took over as Koreas neo-national sport.
During the horrible years of tyranny and destruction Koreans elites conjured a force that was so powerful, the very thought of non-Koreans playing professionally was a joke to be cast away.
Starcraft 2, when first introduce was looked at by many of us as a last hope for a presence from the foreigner community into the major RTS franchise that took over as Koreas neo-national sport.
During the horrible years of tyranny and destruction Koreans elites conjured a force that was so powerful, the very thought of non-Koreans playing professionally was a joke to be cast away.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/27Oah.jpg)
The Hope
A few stepped up to answer the call, they pushed through diversity to rise up and become some of the best Starcraft BW players abroad and at the home of foreigners hearts. They got thrown into the Korean zone, not only won by Koreans but absolutely dominated by Koreans, no one was ever comparable yet these brave souls ventured.
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RET
Appeared at Courage, extremely talented player
Appeared at Courage, extremely talented player
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/maVp1.jpg)
Nony
Recognized for his 2gate play and Arrrrbittterrrrrrrssss with his good manner and amazing play style.
Recognized for his 2gate play and Arrrrbittterrrrrrrssss with his good manner and amazing play style.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6tMbi.jpg)
Idra
The Gracken was arguably the best foreigner to play the game in overall consistency, he was known for his manner (some things never change) and his overall amazing mechanics
The Gracken was arguably the best foreigner to play the game in overall consistency, he was known for his manner (some things never change) and his overall amazing mechanics
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/V3atj.jpg)
White-Ra
Grandpa toss, always mannered and respectful gave a shining example of
professionalism which was only matched by his skill at the time.
Grandpa toss, always mannered and respectful gave a shining example of
professionalism which was only matched by his skill at the time.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mLtTx.jpg)
The Result
Sadly, they were not enough, Idra and Nony (who turned his spot down) only reached B team level, which is an accomplishment for any foreigner to dream of but was small beans to Koreans, and the rest had notable games but no results in the Korean pro scene.
Why do I tell this story? What value does it have? Are Koreans just better?
The Target:
The target, which seems rather obvious and trivial to some but in essence is harder than getting Kim to stop nerfing Terran each patch(+ Show Spoiler +
no pun intended 
The Koreans were not born from the womb saying “my precious” and holding a copy of Starcraft (BW or 2) as this seems to be the common rhetoric by the community, that they’re to damn good. How can we reach a target that’s so far way?
Few have shown us the way, prophets in there own right, Huk / Naniwa / Sase / Ret / Stephano are among the light through the darkness which has descended upon us all.
Huk and Naniwa for there meticulous practice regimes, Sase for his creativity and original playstyle, Ret for his incredible macro mechanics and untapped talent, Stephano, for his overall perfection sewn together by utter emotionless play which greatly improved his results and finally Thozain, for his ability to bludgeon nerds to death with his spoon style Terran.
If we have such talented players, taking championships and series off the top of the top players, why in the hell is there such a heavy gap as a community, specifically in regard to the ladder then? KR>EU>NA, why is that?
The Carrot
As this is the main discussion topic I will break it up into sections.
What is the Carrot?
The carrot (which will be the focal point of this discussion) is going to be used as the “practice” ideologies many people seem to have regarding how to improve and how to get better, which in effect is actually increasing the gap between Koreans and Foreigners at a rate that will see Koreans stay as they always have been, the best, if we don’t stop it.
- 1) Trying to improve surpassing the goal of winning?
This is the common “thought” when discussing Starcraft Strategy and improvements for players of lower leagues (and even higher leagues) that one must in affect, play standard to improve, work on his mechanics and macro to become better and that cheesing has very little worth except for easy wins.
You’ll note this through searching “cheese” in the TL search function, and finding almost every thread either A) teaching cheese which gets negative attention, or B) complaining about cheese in a certain instance, and the balance of cheesing.
When did trying to win at any means possible become white wash for “macro” oriented games? And do the Koreans follow this process of “improving” over “win at all costs”?
- 2) Playing to win
This is the simple truth, Koreans play to win. They play meticulous, exploitive and ruthless, with no care in the world what you feel about the play style they’re using at that instance because in the end, they want to win above all else. We can note this in Code S with MVP, who is arguably on the decline, but last season he exploited players, not to show long great games, but to win at all costs, he is now the 4 time GSL champion… Where is that vicious mentality with us as a community?
We need to buckle down, and realize the only way to improve your mechanics is to be tested in a high stress environment in which both players are constantly being on the edge of defeat. Sitting back, and waiting for both players to max while dealing with minor harassment all game/engagements just isn’t a realistic mentality for competitive play, because it doesn’t engage you in any quick thought engagements where you aren’t prepared and you have to act fast with crisis management to save yourself, which we’ve all be caught with our pants down playing ladder.
Discussion Topics:
You may choose one or all, but I request that you at least choose one (adding to the topic) or rebut/challenge someone else’s perspective.
1. Should cheese/allin oriented play be so heavily shunned? Does it have any value?
2. Does the concept of winning take the backseat to improving and is this good or bad? Is winning at all cost a good mentality, or is it faulty?
3. Is it possible to close the gap? Is the gap related to anything discussed here, why or why not?
4. Is Korea a more exploitative environment in general? And is that a pro or a con if we move it into the NA (specifically) or EU regions.
Personal Opinions:
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Topic 1 I believe that first we must define Cheese and Allin respectively, I believe cheese is anything that happens within the first 7 minutes (proxy gates/cannon rush/6pool/7pool) where anything past that which has the intent of “kill or die” is an allin.
That being said, I believe that cheese is an integral part of this game, one we are all missing. Cheese gives us the ability to deal with awkward situations that we aren’t comfortable in to increase our response time. I believe cheese is heavily underused and it has immense value to improve both the cheesed and the cheeser.
Topic 2 I believe winning takes a major backseat (as you can tell from the slight bias I tried to avoid when creating the thread) where players are to worried about maxing or getting that perfect composition EVEN if they see an opening to engage (I’m also guilty of this) and I think that is faulty logic on all of our parts because if we see a possible exploit, that is a weakness in your opponents play that you are not curing by not engaging.
Topic 3 I think the gap, if it grows and grows for the next year or so, would be impossible to close but I believe we can close the skill gap between regions if we start to focus on winning.
Topic 4 From personal experience , yes Korea is a much more exploitive environment in which any mistake you make is harshly dismantled and you in the end have to either fix your play style, or lose…
Finally sorry for the post earlier, I accidently posted : D and I hope you guys enjoy the thread.
Community Edits
User "nakedsurfer" reminding me about grrrr
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On June 26 2012 02:46 nakedsurfer wrote:
You forgot about Grrrr!!!
The boss of foreigners.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Grrrr...
You forgot about Grrrr!!!
The boss of foreigners.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Grrrr...
User "Zren89" discussing his position with regards to improving SC2 as a whole, and foreigners position right now.
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On June 26 2012 02:49 Zren89 wrote:
As a community, we should be focused mainly on imrpoving at ALL levels of the game, and I believe this tracends even game-play itself, and goes into areas that are mainly the responsibility of tournaments and event orginzers. In order to be involved in this "next-wave" of e-sports in the west we have to support and grow entities like MLG and IPL and NASL, so that we have some reason for e-sports to even matter outside of SK. This is already happening though and I'm pretty happy with the way things are panning out hus far so I won't go into too much detail there.
That being said, everyone (that matters) in NA<EU<KR is completely focused on getting better at all times in all situations. But practice regimen is very dependant on the style of tournament that you are playing in. If it is an MLG the raw talent type of players tend to do very very well there, such as a Huk, DRG, or MKP, they are very talented and macro-capable players (an argument could be made for MKP being a win at all costs type but he has proven his raw skill mutlpile times now in the MLG'esque format) but if they are going into a tourney like the GSL and they have LOADS of time between games and opponents and even match-ups! then the win at all costs mentality becomes tantamount to being seuccesful in said format. MVP preparing the "cheesy" builds he did agains't Nani and Nani being completely taken off-guard by them was a prime example of this type of preparation and mentality.
All in all its an interesting dicussion but I think that Foreigners are already matching a lot of the current SC2 players in raw skill and some of them even in preparation and mentalitly. But those that do the best, those that we remember (both foreigner and Korean) are going to be those that manage to find a blance between the two and shine in both lights, so that they get more titles and more prestige, and thus win our hearts :D
thanks for putting in the time and effor man, cheers!
As a community, we should be focused mainly on imrpoving at ALL levels of the game, and I believe this tracends even game-play itself, and goes into areas that are mainly the responsibility of tournaments and event orginzers. In order to be involved in this "next-wave" of e-sports in the west we have to support and grow entities like MLG and IPL and NASL, so that we have some reason for e-sports to even matter outside of SK. This is already happening though and I'm pretty happy with the way things are panning out hus far so I won't go into too much detail there.
That being said, everyone (that matters) in NA<EU<KR is completely focused on getting better at all times in all situations. But practice regimen is very dependant on the style of tournament that you are playing in. If it is an MLG the raw talent type of players tend to do very very well there, such as a Huk, DRG, or MKP, they are very talented and macro-capable players (an argument could be made for MKP being a win at all costs type but he has proven his raw skill mutlpile times now in the MLG'esque format) but if they are going into a tourney like the GSL and they have LOADS of time between games and opponents and even match-ups! then the win at all costs mentality becomes tantamount to being seuccesful in said format. MVP preparing the "cheesy" builds he did agains't Nani and Nani being completely taken off-guard by them was a prime example of this type of preparation and mentality.
All in all its an interesting dicussion but I think that Foreigners are already matching a lot of the current SC2 players in raw skill and some of them even in preparation and mentalitly. But those that do the best, those that we remember (both foreigner and Korean) are going to be those that manage to find a blance between the two and shine in both lights, so that they get more titles and more prestige, and thus win our hearts :D
thanks for putting in the time and effor man, cheers!
user "tree.hugger"with regards to the gap between pro-Koreans and pro-foreigners
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On June 26 2012 05:42 tree.hugger wrote:
To be honest, I think the gap between the top foreigners and the top koreans is closer than it's been in a long while.
Are there more top koreans than there are top foreigners? Of course; Korean teams can maintain larger rosters in better practice environments for less money. The Korean server is the best in the world. The depth of the Korean scene isn't surprising at all. But the top foreigners are closer to the top Koreans than at any point in the past year and a half, imo.
It's unreasonable of us to expect to achieve Korean depth at the top. But not for our top 6-15 players to be able to compete head on with the Koreans, which is exactly what they're doing.
To be honest, I think the gap between the top foreigners and the top koreans is closer than it's been in a long while.
Are there more top koreans than there are top foreigners? Of course; Korean teams can maintain larger rosters in better practice environments for less money. The Korean server is the best in the world. The depth of the Korean scene isn't surprising at all. But the top foreigners are closer to the top Koreans than at any point in the past year and a half, imo.
It's unreasonable of us to expect to achieve Korean depth at the top. But not for our top 6-15 players to be able to compete head on with the Koreans, which is exactly what they're doing.
user "ZenCaser" opinion related to depth of the game and aggressive play style's which help improve gamer's.
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On June 28 2012 13:08 ZenCaser wrote:
Skill gap
Yes, to join the choir: Brutal, directed work ethic. TotalBiscuit nailed it in the vid above. I recently was listening to one of the EGers talk about their culture. Sorry for the crude paraphrase but it was essentially, "Yeah, we respect each other's professionalism and let the player dictate their practice regimen. I mean, if somebody is slacking, yeah we might get on their case. But that never happens because we all want to win."
No, practice regimen should be more like:
7:00-9:00 AM Countering the Nexus First (vs. Fred)
9:00-11:00 AM Baneling and zergling micro drills
11:00-12:00 PM Presentation/Lecture/Discussion on One Base Colossus (Johnny)
1:00 PM - 6:00 PM Practice your ass off
7:00 PM - 9:00 PM Weight training [credit where credit's due]
Off the cuff examples, but you get the drift.
Culture and Cheese
I always get the impression that NA loves reveling in how deep SC2 strategy is, and loves thinking their way to skill. 95% of the skill isn't figuring out deep thoughts about how many vikings you need to build to counter broodlords. It's playing for hours on end Viking v. Broodlord with your teammates. I could be wrong, for all I know Korean message boards are full of graduate level theses on bunker rushing and the like. I don't read Korean. But to use chess, a GM once teased amateurs about the "reading and nodding" method of chess improvement, when amateurs would find most improvement by dedicated practical drilling.
It's good that the OP brought up cheese. It's is actually a great example of an opportunity to improve the way TotalBiscuit was advocating. The cheese-hate has always baffled me. When I lose to cheese, I think, "Gosh, I wish I were better at defending against that cheese." It's this strange, cultural beast that developed and was reinforced artificially by this community. It's considered reasonable and legitimate to hate cheese and disdain cheesers, which is of course wrong. What's legitimate is cheese. It's a build, no more no less.
Cheese is an aggressive, early strategy designed to gain an early attacking advantage by sacrificing on economy and development. If it's "coin-tossy", then so be it, your overall skill edge is less than you had thought. Why is your opponent supposed to play to your advantages? If "the cheeser doesn't learn anything", so be it and stop pretending you actually care about your cheesing opponent's improvement path, and stop pretending that laddering needs to be some deep, educational experience. Again, chess players might see analogies to chess gambits. If you get rofl-stomped by gambits, complaining about the ignobility of gambiteers will earn you only deaf ears. You practice enough so you stop getting stomped by gambits. And just as no chess grandmaster is going to lose to your chess gambit, no SC2 grandmaster is going to lose to your so-called 'coin-toss' cheese.
So grab a friend or clan and cheese each other constantly for X days. Look forward to the next cheeser because you're going to slaughter him.
Skill gap
Yes, to join the choir: Brutal, directed work ethic. TotalBiscuit nailed it in the vid above. I recently was listening to one of the EGers talk about their culture. Sorry for the crude paraphrase but it was essentially, "Yeah, we respect each other's professionalism and let the player dictate their practice regimen. I mean, if somebody is slacking, yeah we might get on their case. But that never happens because we all want to win."
No, practice regimen should be more like:
7:00-9:00 AM Countering the Nexus First (vs. Fred)
9:00-11:00 AM Baneling and zergling micro drills
11:00-12:00 PM Presentation/Lecture/Discussion on One Base Colossus (Johnny)
1:00 PM - 6:00 PM Practice your ass off
7:00 PM - 9:00 PM Weight training [credit where credit's due]
Off the cuff examples, but you get the drift.
Culture and Cheese
I always get the impression that NA loves reveling in how deep SC2 strategy is, and loves thinking their way to skill. 95% of the skill isn't figuring out deep thoughts about how many vikings you need to build to counter broodlords. It's playing for hours on end Viking v. Broodlord with your teammates. I could be wrong, for all I know Korean message boards are full of graduate level theses on bunker rushing and the like. I don't read Korean. But to use chess, a GM once teased amateurs about the "reading and nodding" method of chess improvement, when amateurs would find most improvement by dedicated practical drilling.
It's good that the OP brought up cheese. It's is actually a great example of an opportunity to improve the way TotalBiscuit was advocating. The cheese-hate has always baffled me. When I lose to cheese, I think, "Gosh, I wish I were better at defending against that cheese." It's this strange, cultural beast that developed and was reinforced artificially by this community. It's considered reasonable and legitimate to hate cheese and disdain cheesers, which is of course wrong. What's legitimate is cheese. It's a build, no more no less.
Cheese is an aggressive, early strategy designed to gain an early attacking advantage by sacrificing on economy and development. If it's "coin-tossy", then so be it, your overall skill edge is less than you had thought. Why is your opponent supposed to play to your advantages? If "the cheeser doesn't learn anything", so be it and stop pretending you actually care about your cheesing opponent's improvement path, and stop pretending that laddering needs to be some deep, educational experience. Again, chess players might see analogies to chess gambits. If you get rofl-stomped by gambits, complaining about the ignobility of gambiteers will earn you only deaf ears. You practice enough so you stop getting stomped by gambits. And just as no chess grandmaster is going to lose to your chess gambit, no SC2 grandmaster is going to lose to your so-called 'coin-toss' cheese.
So grab a friend or clan and cheese each other constantly for X days. Look forward to the next cheeser because you're going to slaughter him.
