|
On June 26 2012 08:08 NoGasfOu wrote:
This thread is more like an excuse for losing to Koreans and being bad at the game to me. Doesn't matter what you chose, cheesing, all in, macro, carrot or target, Koreans are always better and will always be better. There's no closing-the-skill-gap there. Just face it! Koreans are better at Starcraft; and I'm not saying whether they're natually good at it.
Its not about being "always" better (genetics?) but about stronger practice environment that will yield results. China had stronger infrastructure than western scene. And PJ was better than Idra, Ret, Nony etc.
|
But what about Elky and Draco? 
|
makes up for your last thread xD
|
On June 26 2012 15:59 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 08:08 NoGasfOu wrote:
This thread is more like an excuse for losing to Koreans and being bad at the game to me. Doesn't matter what you chose, cheesing, all in, macro, carrot or target, Koreans are always better and will always be better. There's no closing-the-skill-gap there. Just face it! Koreans are better at Starcraft; and I'm not saying whether they're natually good at it. Its not about being "always" better (genetics?) but about stronger practice environment that will yield results. China had stronger infrastructure than western scene. And PJ was better than Idra, Ret, Nony etc.
This is exactly it. There's nothing genetically that makes a Korean better at SC2 then a foreigner. Why are people so stupid and racist about it? It's about talent, effort and mentality. A lot of foreigners don't put the effort and don't have the mentality to be on par or better with Koreans, so it's only natural they fall behind.
|
On June 26 2012 09:26 VillageBC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 09:21 SupLilSon wrote:
Damn, this thread just got pretty racist. You da man. Nothing racist about science. It might be messier then we like it to be though.
Koreans got that starcraft gene. I think it is related to Azns being good at instruments like the piano also, similar finger movements. Would also explain Dragonforce's insane guitar APM. Alert the Human Genome Project, we've identified a new gene.
|
On June 26 2012 17:11 MonkSEA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 15:59 bgx wrote:On June 26 2012 08:08 NoGasfOu wrote:
This thread is more like an excuse for losing to Koreans and being bad at the game to me. Doesn't matter what you chose, cheesing, all in, macro, carrot or target, Koreans are always better and will always be better. There's no closing-the-skill-gap there. Just face it! Koreans are better at Starcraft; and I'm not saying whether they're natually good at it. Its not about being "always" better (genetics?) but about stronger practice environment that will yield results. China had stronger infrastructure than western scene. And PJ was better than Idra, Ret, Nony etc. This is exactly it. There's nothing genetically that makes a Korean better at SC2 then a foreigner. Why are people so stupid and racist about it? It's about talent, effort and mentality. A lot of foreigners don't put the effort and don't have the mentality to be on par or better with Koreans, so it's only natural they fall behind.
Not really what i meant exatcly. Saying Koreans are better is still valid, because IN FACT they have better environment than ANYONE else. Since like 10 years. Its pretty normal to see certain nation's being better at certain competitions because of certain factors, like training facilities, infrastructure, mentality, geographical position (in some sports). The reason why Koreans dominate Starcraft 1/2 can't be summarized with 1 sentence ("Others are just lazy").
|
cheese imo helps the person being cheesed a lot, as it forces them to improve their crisis management dramatically, whereas the cheeser doesn't have to do too much in comparison.
|
On June 26 2012 02:25 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
This is the simple truth, Koreans play to win. They play meticulous, exploitive and ruthless, with no care in the world what you feel about the play style they’re using at that instance because in the end, they want to win above all else.
Anyone remembering Rain apologizing for cheesing his way to the GSL final?
|
On June 26 2012 18:06 chocopaw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:25 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
This is the simple truth, Koreans play to win. They play meticulous, exploitive and ruthless, with no care in the world what you feel about the play style they’re using at that instance because in the end, they want to win above all else. Anyone remembering Rain apologizing for cheesing his way to the GSL final?
lol well done dude. anyway this thread is stupid, op has no clue about how either of the koreans or foreigners train, but comment on the differences anyway, and a lot of points made are straight up wrong. its just another one of those "foreigners ae lazy/afraid to cheese(lol), and thats why koreans dominate 111!!" thread
|
What does it say about the game if non-Korean players really are closing the gap even though they don't practice as much and don't even have coaches?
|
On June 26 2012 02:25 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
1. Should cheese/allin oriented play be so heavily shunned? Does it have any value?
2. Does the concept of winning take the backseat to improving and is this good or bad? Is winning at all cost a good mentality, or is it faulty?
3. Is it possible to close the gap? Is the gap related to anything discussed here, why or why not?
4. Is Korea a more exploitative environment in general? And is that a pro or a con if we move it into the NA (specifically) or EU regions.
I'd say this whole thread is "awareness" - that is to say, it identifies some issues, which I think most posters here are more or less aware of (not new players of course). I don't think it improper that this sort of thing be brought up every so often. A part of proper awareness *is*, I think, bringing the "obvious" up every so often. (i.e. if it isn't explicitly identified, then it actually *isn't* obvious to those that were around at the time it was pushed into the general consciousness making it "obvious". So it *isn't* obvious to those.)
As for its value in discussion among veterans, I think it will do little or nothing. My opinion is that in the end everyone's going to have their own opinion that will likely not change too much regardless of how well others express differing opinions. Of course I could be wrong in this. It is to be hoped people will retain open minds. (But really, they don't. Even I don't. =^.^=)
My take -
Suppose in a game of football, there were a tradition - not a rule - that everyone lie on their faces for the first two minutes of the game to honor the King of Finland that invented the game. (I'm making this all up obviously. The King of Finland didn't invent football). Now, suppose you had a team from India that said "The heck with this stupid tradition" (not to come down on Indians, just picking a random nation, maybe because I like curry). So they proceed to score 10 points at the beginning of every game while the opposing team is lying on their faces. Observers could make a point "Oh, you're breaking this proud tradition." Absolutely true. "You're being disrespectful". Yes, also true. But in the end, those traditions have not been codified into the official rules. So you could say in a way that India was being *more* respectful of the actual rules than the rest of the world's players, because they were the ones that *adhered* to the actual rules. Of course, you'd have complaints about "the spirit of the rules" "respect", and so forth. But then, if these were so important, why were they not codified? "Everybody understands it! They don't need to be codified!" Ah, but then, you see, apparently they DO need to be codified. Etc. etc. Tradition? Rules? Which should be respected more?
Personally, I think winning is winning. Cheese, whatever, that's loser talk. (Whoa! What happened to respect? Well, I'm all for respecting things, but when I see a cockroach, I'm going to try to squish it. In the most respectful way, of course. =^.^=)
--
Is it possible to close the gap (between Koreans and non-Koreans (non-Koreans often called "foreigners" for some odd reason) - of COURSE it is. Theoretically. But let's be real here.
In the United States of America, blacks make up 13.6% of the population. But the NBA (National Basketball Assosciation) has 60% blacks. NFL is similar. Now, it's true that there is some difference in reporting these percentages, as for those of Samoan descent, &c. But regardless, blacks are disproportionately represented.
Why is this?
It's too simplistic to say that genetics are the only reason. Socioeconomic, cultural, demonstrable discrimination in other fields pushing blacks into fields such as sports, all play a part. But at the end of the day, you have this big difference, and that difference is not going to go away overnight. Same for Starcraft. It's there.
--
Some people are saying - it's NOT genetics, it's training, it's cultural - why not genetics? If a certain ethnic group tends to be taller than another ethnic group, given the same environmental conditions, nutrition, &c, then why shouldn't one ethnic group tend to have superior Starcraft skills? My thought is that cultural mores indoctrinate people to incorrectly believe that genetics cannot make a difference in performance.
Personally, I think training and environment are far more important, and that although genetics may well be part of the equation, that it is a minor one.
--
Korea is a better environment for SC2. It just is. If nothing else, just because most of the major contenders are there.
Suppose you're training for something or learning something or what have you. Is it easier to shout across the hall "Hey! What's your take on 2 Thor push?" (then you get five of the top contenders in the field giving replies, and maybe you chat up another five or six by dinnertime). Or to look at hours of streaming, make calls, ask around, get translators for Korean, &c? Early dominance feeds late dominance, it's just a fact.
Media trumpet about upsets and how empires are shattered, &c, because it makes good stories. But the fact is, if a group is winning, it tends to keep on winning, just because wins feed into more wins.
--
There could be some reversals; non-Koreans are winning some tournaments. But I think this isn't necessarily indicative of a paradigm shift. Players and teams always go through cyclic periods of higher and lower performance; this could just be one such period in the cycle in which it happens that a few non-Koreans were high on the cycle and the top Koreans low on the cycle. Nothing can be determined until you see constant shift, and IMO that just has not yet happened.
I think in general, though, non-Koreans are acquiring the training skills they need to take them to the top.
Pro or con that things be "moved" to NA/EU? Con of course. Take a very successful restaurant in China and pop in in the United States. Fail. Oh, it might be moderately successful. But you can't just uproot things and shift them to other places. Business connections, relations with suppliers, local reputation built up over time - all these things contribute to success of any particular restaurant.
That is to say, if NA and EU want to be successes, they cannot focus on simply copying the Korean model. (This is for popularity of esports, obtaining corporate sponsorships, and even training players! Because although one might think that training regiments should be similar, the fact is with different socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds, it is natural that the same training regimen would naturally have different level of effectiveness.) NA and EU will have to find their own answers to the Koreans, taking useful elements from their style, but certainly not trying to copy them word for word, as it were.
Even Korean houses have different training regimens. Some are far more structured than others.
(Note - I don't think NA and EU *do* really try to just copy the Korean model. At least in general. This is good.)
|
On June 26 2012 17:22 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 17:11 MonkSEA wrote:On June 26 2012 15:59 bgx wrote:On June 26 2012 08:08 NoGasfOu wrote:
This thread is more like an excuse for losing to Koreans and being bad at the game to me. Doesn't matter what you chose, cheesing, all in, macro, carrot or target, Koreans are always better and will always be better. There's no closing-the-skill-gap there. Just face it! Koreans are better at Starcraft; and I'm not saying whether they're natually good at it. Its not about being "always" better (genetics?) but about stronger practice environment that will yield results. China had stronger infrastructure than western scene. And PJ was better than Idra, Ret, Nony etc. This is exactly it. There's nothing genetically that makes a Korean better at SC2 then a foreigner. Why are people so stupid and racist about it? It's about talent, effort and mentality. A lot of foreigners don't put the effort and don't have the mentality to be on par or better with Koreans, so it's only natural they fall behind. Not really what i meant exatcly. Saying Koreans are better is still valid, because IN FACT they have better environment than ANYONE else. Since like 10 years. Its pretty normal to see certain nation's being better at certain competitions because of certain factors, like training facilities, infrastructure, mentality, geographical position (in some sports). The reason why Koreans dominate Starcraft 1/2 can't be summarized with 1 sentence ("Others are just lazy").
I am pretty sure you can. starcraft is a game that is totally possible to become real good through self preservation and practices, reliant on others is not a requirement.
Just name me ONE foreigner pro that practices as hard as koreans like forGG. there isn't one base on those that streams
|
HOTS doesn't magically reset everyone's mechanics. Sure, you'll be able to beat the better player with wonky, weird strategies again, but that's not gonna work for a very long time and it will create the illusion, that the gap is closing when it isn't really.
But it doesn't seem that strange we as non-koreans aren't practising that much. After all in every show you tune in everybody talks about what's important. If you're mediocre, but have a huge following, can give interviews and can tweet a few times a day, you're the baws, whether you are competitive or not. In the last few months EG has does more PR stuff and commercials with their players than anything else. If it's not that important to be really good, then why work yourself into exhaustion for it?
|
On June 26 2012 09:34 NoGasfOu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 08:25 Brindled wrote:On June 26 2012 08:08 NoGasfOu wrote:
This thread is more like an excuse for losing to Koreans and being bad at the game to me. Doesn't matter what you chose, cheesing, all in, macro, carrot or target, Koreans are always better and will always be better. There's no closing-the-skill-gap there. Just face it! Koreans are better at Starcraft; and I'm not saying whether they're natually good at it. Your penis is always going to be smaller and always will be smaller than everyone else's. There's no closing-the-size-gap there. Just face it! Your penis is small and I'm not saying whether its naturally so or not. Fail argument. You don't know whether my penis is small. However, everyone is sure that Koreans OWN foreigners in starcraft.
Can we stop the stereotypical remarks on the size of ones penis please, it has no place here...
On June 26 2012 18:12 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 18:06 chocopaw wrote:On June 26 2012 02:25 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
This is the simple truth, Koreans play to win. They play meticulous, exploitive and ruthless, with no care in the world what you feel about the play style they’re using at that instance because in the end, they want to win above all else. Anyone remembering Rain apologizing for cheesing his way to the GSL final? lol well done dude. anyway this thread is stupid, op has no clue about how either of the koreans or foreigners train, but comment on the differences anyway, and a lot of points made are straight up wrong. its just another one of those "foreigners ae lazy/afraid to cheese(lol), and thats why koreans dominate 111!!" thread
Could you elaborate? It is fine to completely disagree with my post, but without refuting any of the specific arguments that I presented you're blowing dust at the wind in terms of actually having a point.
I didn't say anything about foreigners "afraid" to cheese, my entire point was that in the process of improving (not tournament related) the entire foreign community has issues with cheeses/allins/pressure builds and such in competitive situations this may have an affect since so many Koreans employ these tactics in BO'style formats.
On June 26 2012 17:11 MonkSEA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 15:59 bgx wrote:On June 26 2012 08:08 NoGasfOu wrote:
This thread is more like an excuse for losing to Koreans and being bad at the game to me. Doesn't matter what you chose, cheesing, all in, macro, carrot or target, Koreans are always better and will always be better. There's no closing-the-skill-gap there. Just face it! Koreans are better at Starcraft; and I'm not saying whether they're natually good at it. Its not about being "always" better (genetics?) but about stronger practice environment that will yield results. China had stronger infrastructure than western scene. And PJ was better than Idra, Ret, Nony etc. This is exactly it. There's nothing genetically that makes a Korean better at SC2 then a foreigner. Why are people so stupid and racist about it? It's about talent, effort and mentality. A lot of foreigners don't put the effort and don't have the mentality to be on par or better with Koreans, so it's only natural they fall behind.
Can we all stop with this genetics discussion? Not a single one disagreeing or agreeing has brought any actual evidence to support the claim, they're making (Mainly the person making the claim requires the evidence to be refuted so you especially should stop this conversation unless you can back your statements)... It's getting a bit out of hand, so unless you have relevant data to present, this conversation regarding "Korean genetics" should stop, thank you.
|
People who have the urge to just type "this thread is stupid" need to just keep it in their head and not spam the thread.
Good thread Nemesis but as for the macro vs cheese discussion it seems more simple in my mind.
1. Should cheese/allin oriented play be so heavily shunned? Does it have any value?
It should only be shunned at the lower levels (I consider Mid-High Masters even low level, probably low-mid GM as well) when you don't have the proper skillset (dexterity) to back it up, cheese just becomes trying to win a useless ladder game. Everyone needs to play to improve, until they reach an amazing amount, then mix it up and learn the ins and outs of the game.
Plus if you really want to play to win, just outmacroing your opponents in any of the "lower" leagues, will get you the win in most cases. If not, at least you can work on your scouting!
|
cheese/all-in has become so black and white in my opinion with sc2. early aggression, heavy or light is meant to force a reaction from the opponent. even if i cannon rush or 6pool, i play with transition in mind with the mindset of causing some damage to my opponent. if i end the game good, if i dont move on, flow into regular game. why does everyone(majority) think cheese/all-in = the end?
with that said, its harder to make a come back in sc2 oppose to bw imo after failed attempt at drop or rush and timing push or all-in is strong as ever so i think people have no choice but to abuse it to win.
koreans have the infrastructure that allows them to be better at starcraft, and other games for that matter. mainly i think because of LAN. i was surrounded by great cs players during my cs time because we played at LAN and we had pro players to play/practice with. playing online is one thing but being able to talk and see on sight is a huge advantage.
|
Grrr... the first OSL champion and the only foreign OSL champion 
|
I'm pretty sure cheese is quite well defined as a strategy that must remain hidden until used for it to remain potent. Should not be mistaken for the plethora of early pressure builds and such.
|
I feel like you're operating under the flawed assumption that the skill gap between Koreans and foreigners is growing but I'm of the opinion that it's shrinking. Then again it's tough to say because SC2 is different from Brood War and SC2 is still very new. We have some great foreigners that other people have mentioned. Thorzain, Stephano, Naniwa, Sase, Ret, ect.
|
On June 27 2012 06:59 AirbladeOrange wrote:
I feel like you're operating under the flawed assumption that the skill gap between Koreans and foreigners is growing but I'm of the opinion that it's shrinking. Then again it's tough to say because SC2 is different from Brood War and SC2 is still very new. We have some great foreigners that other people have mentioned. Thorzain, Stephano, Naniwa, Sase, Ret, ect.
it could also widen as it did with bw but also large part to reducing number of foreign bw players. which i think could happen with sc2 also (many people like to move onto the new stuff). at the same time the pro-scene in korea will bring in new talents more than any other part of the world.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
