The topic kind of drew off course from what I originally intended with over half of the conversation being in regard to "pro" teams. I can see where this train of thought came from, the introduction was leading in off pro players, but the real topic of discussion is actually regarding the Korean scene vs Non-Korean of all skill types and the seemingly increasing gap of general skill within regions and young talent (for instance the not recognized players) and average joe's. I would ask that we move along that topic path please, thank you.
Please note that this thread evolves with the content the community feeds into it, I will be constantly updating this thread on a daily basis, so feel free to drop me a PM if you have something you deem can fit in the community edits. Also realize this thread can easily die without discussion, so it rests in your court how in depth you wish to take this.
As with any discussion talking about improving one’s play (or all of our play in general), balance discussion is always on the forefront of creeping in, this will NOT be a balance discussion, the SC2 forums have enough of that. Please discuss the topics (noted below) or rebut others statements.
If anyone has relevant information they wish to add (or a perspective that either agrees or disagrees with the discussion topics and offers an in depth look into why that is) than I will add it to the mod edits, note that if any of these pictures are copy righted, the holders may PM me and I will remove them (I personally edited a few of them, so I have no issue with removing)
Chasing the Carrot or the Target?
Goal To determine why the gap between Korea and Foreigners is growing at a precedence comparable to the early 2000’s for Brood War and some theories regarding why they seem “inherently” better than foreigners.
Introduction Starcraft 2, when first introduce was looked at by many of us as a last hope for a presence from the foreigner community into the major RTS franchise that took over as Koreas neo-national sport.
During the horrible years of tyranny and destruction Koreans elites conjured a force that was so powerful, the very thought of non-Koreans playing professionally was a joke to be cast away.
The Hope
A few stepped up to answer the call, they pushed through diversity to rise up and become some of the best Starcraft BW players abroad and at the home of foreigners hearts. They got thrown into the Korean zone, not only won by Koreans but absolutely dominated by Koreans, no one was ever comparable yet these brave souls ventured.
RET Appeared at Courage, extremely talented player
Nony Recognized for his 2gate play and Arrrrbittterrrrrrrssss with his good manner and amazing play style.
Idra The Gracken was arguably the best foreigner to play the game in overall consistency, he was known for his manner (some things never change) and his overall amazing mechanics
White-Ra Grandpa toss, always mannered and respectful gave a shining example of professionalism which was only matched by his skill at the time.
The Result
Sadly, they were not enough, Idra and Nony (who turned his spot down) only reached B team level, which is an accomplishment for any foreigner to dream of but was small beans to Koreans, and the rest had notable games but no results in the Korean pro scene.
Why do I tell this story? What value does it have? Are Koreans just better?
The Target:
The target, which seems rather obvious and trivial to some but in essence is harder than getting Kim to stop nerfing Terran each patch(+ Show Spoiler +
no pun intended
), is to bridge the gap between Koreans and non-Koreans (foreigners) with regards to not only tournament results, but overall skill as a community, note ladder skill gaps.
The Koreans were not born from the womb saying “my precious” and holding a copy of Starcraft (BW or 2) as this seems to be the common rhetoric by the community, that they’re to damn good. How can we reach a target that’s so far way?
Few have shown us the way, prophets in there own right, Huk / Naniwa / Sase / Ret / Stephano are among the light through the darkness which has descended upon us all.
Huk and Naniwa for there meticulous practice regimes, Sase for his creativity and original playstyle, Ret for his incredible macro mechanics and untapped talent, Stephano, for his overall perfection sewn together by utter emotionless play which greatly improved his results and finally Thozain, for his ability to bludgeon nerds to death with his spoon style Terran.
If we have such talented players, taking championships and series off the top of the top players, why in the hell is there such a heavy gap as a community, specifically in regard to the ladder then? KR>EU>NA, why is that?
The Carrot
As this is the main discussion topic I will break it up into sections.
What is the Carrot?
The carrot (which will be the focal point of this discussion) is going to be used as the “practice” ideologies many people seem to have regarding how to improve and how to get better, which in effect is actually increasing the gap between Koreans and Foreigners at a rate that will see Koreans stay as they always have been, the best, if we don’t stop it.
1)Trying to improve surpassing the goal of winning?
This is the common “thought” when discussing Starcraft Strategy and improvements for players of lower leagues (and even higher leagues) that one must in affect, play standard to improve, work on his mechanics and macro to become better and that cheesing has very little worth except for easy wins.
You’ll note this through searching “cheese” in the TL search function, and finding almost every thread either A) teaching cheese which gets negative attention, or B) complaining about cheese in a certain instance, and the balance of cheesing.
When did trying to win at any means possible become white wash for “macro” oriented games? And do the Koreans follow this process of “improving” over “win at all costs”?
2)Playing to win
This is the simple truth, Koreans play to win. They play meticulous, exploitive and ruthless, with no care in the world what you feel about the play style they’re using at that instance because in the end, they want to win above all else. We can note this in Code S with MVP, who is arguably on the decline, but last season he exploited players, not to show long great games, but to win at all costs, he is now the 4 time GSL champion… Where is that vicious mentality with us as a community?
We need to buckle down, and realize the only way to improve your mechanics is to be tested in a high stress environment in which both players are constantly being on the edge of defeat. Sitting back, and waiting for both players to max while dealing with minor harassment all game/engagements just isn’t a realistic mentality for competitive play, because it doesn’t engage you in any quick thought engagements where you aren’t prepared and you have to act fast with crisis management to save yourself, which we’ve all be caught with our pants down playing ladder.
Discussion Topics:
You may choose one or all, but I request that you at least choose one (adding to the topic) or rebut/challenge someone else’s perspective.
1. Should cheese/allin oriented play be so heavily shunned? Does it have any value?
2. Does the concept of winning take the backseat to improving and is this good or bad? Is winning at all cost a good mentality, or is it faulty?
3. Is it possible to close the gap? Is the gap related to anything discussed here, why or why not?
4. Is Korea a more exploitative environment in general? And is that a pro or a con if we move it into the NA (specifically) or EU regions.
Topic 1 I believe that first we must define Cheese and Allin respectively, I believe cheese is anything that happens within the first 7 minutes (proxy gates/cannon rush/6pool/7pool) where anything past that which has the intent of “kill or die” is an allin.
That being said, I believe that cheese is an integral part of this game, one we are all missing. Cheese gives us the ability to deal with awkward situations that we aren’t comfortable in to increase our response time. I believe cheese is heavily underused and it has immense value to improve both the cheesed and the cheeser.
Topic 2 I believe winning takes a major backseat (as you can tell from the slight bias I tried to avoid when creating the thread) where players are to worried about maxing or getting that perfect composition EVEN if they see an opening to engage (I’m also guilty of this) and I think that is faulty logic on all of our parts because if we see a possible exploit, that is a weakness in your opponents play that you are not curing by not engaging.
Topic 3 I think the gap, if it grows and grows for the next year or so, would be impossible to close but I believe we can close the skill gap between regions if we start to focus on winning.
Topic 4 From personal experience , yes Korea is a much more exploitive environment in which any mistake you make is harshly dismantled and you in the end have to either fix your play style, or lose…
Finally sorry for the post earlier, I accidently posted : D and I hope you guys enjoy the thread.
User "Zren89" discussing his position with regards to improving SC2 as a whole, and foreigners position right now. + Show Spoiler +
On June 26 2012 02:49 Zren89 wrote: As a community, we should be focused mainly on imrpoving at ALL levels of the game, and I believe this tracends even game-play itself, and goes into areas that are mainly the responsibility of tournaments and event orginzers. In order to be involved in this "next-wave" of e-sports in the west we have to support and grow entities like MLG and IPL and NASL, so that we have some reason for e-sports to even matter outside of SK. This is already happening though and I'm pretty happy with the way things are panning out hus far so I won't go into too much detail there.
That being said, everyone (that matters) in NA<EU<KR is completely focused on getting better at all times in all situations. But practice regimen is very dependant on the style of tournament that you are playing in. If it is an MLG the raw talent type of players tend to do very very well there, such as a Huk, DRG, or MKP, they are very talented and macro-capable players (an argument could be made for MKP being a win at all costs type but he has proven his raw skill mutlpile times now in the MLG'esque format) but if they are going into a tourney like the GSL and they have LOADS of time between games and opponents and even match-ups! then the win at all costs mentality becomes tantamount to being seuccesful in said format. MVP preparing the "cheesy" builds he did agains't Nani and Nani being completely taken off-guard by them was a prime example of this type of preparation and mentality.
All in all its an interesting dicussion but I think that Foreigners are already matching a lot of the current SC2 players in raw skill and some of them even in preparation and mentalitly. But those that do the best, those that we remember (both foreigner and Korean) are going to be those that manage to find a blance between the two and shine in both lights, so that they get more titles and more prestige, and thus win our hearts :D
thanks for putting in the time and effor man, cheers!
user "tree.hugger"with regards to the gap between pro-Koreans and pro-foreigners + Show Spoiler +
On June 26 2012 05:42 tree.hugger wrote: To be honest, I think the gap between the top foreigners and the top koreans is closer than it's been in a long while.
Are there more top koreans than there are top foreigners? Of course; Korean teams can maintain larger rosters in better practice environments for less money. The Korean server is the best in the world. The depth of the Korean scene isn't surprising at all. But the top foreigners are closer to the top Koreans than at any point in the past year and a half, imo.
It's unreasonable of us to expect to achieve Korean depth at the top. But not for our top 6-15 players to be able to compete head on with the Koreans, which is exactly what they're doing.
user "ZenCaser" opinion related to depth of the game and aggressive play style's which help improve gamer's. + Show Spoiler +
On June 28 2012 13:08 ZenCaser wrote: Skill gap Yes, to join the choir: Brutal, directed work ethic. TotalBiscuit nailed it in the vid above. I recently was listening to one of the EGers talk about their culture. Sorry for the crude paraphrase but it was essentially, "Yeah, we respect each other's professionalism and let the player dictate their practice regimen. I mean, if somebody is slacking, yeah we might get on their case. But that never happens because we all want to win."
No, practice regimen should be more like: 7:00-9:00 AM Countering the Nexus First (vs. Fred) 9:00-11:00 AM Baneling and zergling micro drills 11:00-12:00 PM Presentation/Lecture/Discussion on One Base Colossus (Johnny) 1:00 PM - 6:00 PM Practice your ass off 7:00 PM - 9:00 PM Weight training [credit where credit's due]
Off the cuff examples, but you get the drift.
Culture and Cheese
I always get the impression that NA loves reveling in how deep SC2 strategy is, and loves thinking their way to skill. 95% of the skill isn't figuring out deep thoughts about how many vikings you need to build to counter broodlords. It's playing for hours on end Viking v. Broodlord with your teammates. I could be wrong, for all I know Korean message boards are full of graduate level theses on bunker rushing and the like. I don't read Korean. But to use chess, a GM once teased amateurs about the "reading and nodding" method of chess improvement, when amateurs would find most improvement by dedicated practical drilling.
It's good that the OP brought up cheese. It's is actually a great example of an opportunity to improve the way TotalBiscuit was advocating. The cheese-hate has always baffled me. When I lose to cheese, I think, "Gosh, I wish I were better at defending against that cheese." It's this strange, cultural beast that developed and was reinforced artificially by this community. It's considered reasonable and legitimate to hate cheese and disdain cheesers, which is of course wrong. What's legitimate is cheese. It's a build, no more no less.
Cheese is an aggressive, early strategy designed to gain an early attacking advantage by sacrificing on economy and development. If it's "coin-tossy", then so be it, your overall skill edge is less than you had thought. Why is your opponent supposed to play to your advantages? If "the cheeser doesn't learn anything", so be it and stop pretending you actually care about your cheesing opponent's improvement path, and stop pretending that laddering needs to be some deep, educational experience. Again, chess players might see analogies to chess gambits. If you get rofl-stomped by gambits, complaining about the ignobility of gambiteers will earn you only deaf ears. You practice enough so you stop getting stomped by gambits. And just as no chess grandmaster is going to lose to your chess gambit, no SC2 grandmaster is going to lose to your so-called 'coin-toss' cheese.
So grab a friend or clan and cheese each other constantly for X days. Look forward to the next cheeser because you're going to slaughter him.
On June 26 2012 02:43 Colocolo wrote: tbh I think foreigners are more and more closing the gap
especially: Stephano, Sase, Naniwa beating Code-S players in tourneys atm.
So there might be no basis for any discussion?
I believe that is short sited, I can understand the prospect of equality based off recent results from the "stars" of the foreigners but you have to really look at Korea... How many no name players are sitting in Code B waiting to get on? A hell of a lot more up and coming foreigners, Artosis is quoted many times saying that there are some Code B players who could easily play in Code S and make a run but the qualifiers are filled with so much talent. So I'm looking a bit more down the road, 3-5 years, will we have a sea of talent? Or one or two names here and there while all the talent originates from Korea.
1. Should cheese/allin oriented play be so heavily shunned? Does it have any value?
Yes and no. Some cheese/allin is good to mix into your builds. If you have someone who is known for strong macro play and he ends up throwing down an 8 pool and wins, its simply strategy. The other player wasn't expecting it and you came out the winner. But like I said, some cheese/allin, not every game.
2. Does the concept of winning take the backseat to improving and is this good or bad? Is winning at all cost a good mentality, or is it faulty?
When you're ahead get more ahead. You don't have to straight out win it right then and there, but you can still win.
3. Is it possible to close the gap? Is the gap related to anything discussed here, why or why not?
Yes. With HoTS coming out everything is going to change and reset. A lot of foreign players now know that this is legit and is no longer a risk, (like the WoL beta and the early stages of WoL). They'll devote even more time now and I can see some foreign players being the BEST in the world. Not just the best foreigner.
4. Is Korea a more exploitative environment in general? And is that a pro or a con if we move it into the NA (specifically) or EU regions.
It is. It will be a pro if we move it into the foreign scene since foreigners will know how to deal with it and its another thing the Koreans won't have a leg up on.
I do agree that all people in ladder and especialy tournements have to cheese a lot more 1 for winning and 2 more inportent in my opinion to force your openent play very save. But i do disagree with your statement that "the Gap" is growing i think we saw in the last 1 year decrease of "the Gap". If you remember there was a time were it was a huge thing for any foreigner to win against a Code A player and any tournement filled with 2 or more koreans was won by a korean. But now it happens relativly common that player like Socke or Grubby destroy multiple Code S Koreans in a row and Players like Sase and Naniwa are always Contenders to win a tournement they enter regardless how many Koreans partizipate. And additionally we have Stephano a (atleast) Top 10-Worldclass Player who can can win against anyone.
On June 26 2012 02:44 Atlan___ wrote: I do agree that all people in ladder and especialy tournements have to cheese a lot more 1 for winning and 2 more inportent in my opinion to force your openent play very save. But i do diagree with your statement that "the Gap" is growing i think we saw in the last 1 year decrease of "the Gap".
In what way did you see the decrease, if you don't mind me asking, because it seems common knowledge that except for a select few foreigners, Koreans are smacking people down (note, NASL for instance only had 2 koreans lose in the playoffs to foreigners, HuK barely won against ganzi to make it the 2nd bo5 won by a foreigner).
I would argue Koreans are beginning to get rolling and we're all sitting back watching.
As a community, we should be focused mainly on improving at ALL levels of the game, and I believe this tracends even game-play itself, and goes into areas that are mainly the responsibility of tournaments and event orginzers. In order to be involved in this "next-wave" of e-sports in the west we have to support and grow entities like MLG and IPL and NASL, so that we have some reason for e-sports to even matter outside of SK. This is already happening though and I'm pretty happy with the way things are panning out thus far so I won't go into too much detail there.
That being said, everyone (that matters) in NA<EU<KR is completely focused on getting better at all times in all situations. But practice regimen is very dependant on the style of tournament that you are playing in. If it is an MLG the raw talent type of players tend to do very very well there, such as a Huk, DRG, or MKP, they are very talented and macro-capable players (an argument could be made for MKP being a win at all costs type but he has proven his raw skill mutlpile times now in the MLG'esque format) but if they are going into a tourney like the GSL and they have LOADS of time between games and opponents and even match-ups! then the win at all costs mentality becomes tantamount to being successful in said format. MVP preparing the "cheesy" builds he did against Nani and Nani being completely caught off-guard by them was a prime example of this type of preparation and mentality.
All in all its an interesting discussion but I think that Foreigners are already matching a lot of the current SC2 players in raw skill and some of them even in preparation and mentalitly. But those that do the best, those that we remember (both foreigner and Korean) are going to be those that manage to find a balance between the two and shine in both lights, so that they get more titles and more prestige, and thus win our hearts :D
Thanks for putting in the time and effort man, cheers!
On June 26 2012 02:49 Zren89 wrote: As a community, we should be focused mainly on improving at ALL levels of the game, and I believe this tracends even game-play itself, and goes into areas that are mainly the responsibility of tournaments and event orginzers. In order to be involved in this "next-wave" of e-sports in the west we have to support and grow entities like MLG and IPL and NASL, so that we have some reason for e-sports to even matter outside of SK. This is already happening though and I'm pretty happy with the way things are panning out hus far so I won't go into too much detail there.
That being said, everyone (that matters) in NA<EU<KR is completely focused on getting better at all times in all situations. But practice regimen is very dependant on the style of tournament that you are playing in. If it is an MLG the raw talent type of players tend to do very very well there, such as a Huk, DRG, or MKP, they are very talented and macro-capable players (an argument could be made for MKP being a win at all costs type but he has proven his raw skill mutlpile times now in the MLG'esque format) but if they are going into a tourney like the GSL and they have LOADS of time between games and opponents and even match-ups! then the win at all costs mentality becomes tantamount to being successful in said format. MVP preparing the "cheesy" builds he did against Nani and Nani being completely caught off-guard by them was a prime example of this type of preparation and mentality.
All in all its an interesting discussion but I think that Foreigners are already matching a lot of the current SC2 players in raw skill and some of them even in preparation and mentalitly. But those that do the best, those that we remember (both foreigner and Korean) are going to be those that manage to find a balance between the two and shine in both lights, so that they get more titles and more prestige, and thus win our hearts :D
Thanks for putting in the time and effort man, cheers!
I would argue it's stagnating actually, with a few exceptions of up and coming players, the Korean scene is dominated by young talent and we have the "old" dogs who never really went away, and a few new faces.
We just don't have a competitive platform for younger players to improve, and as much as regime is discussed, if we're practicing with a little league coach and they've got an entire MLB staff behind them (comparing skill level between NA and KR) than they've simply just got an advantage we won't match, we need to build from the ground up. Pro's might be doing fine now, but 2 years? We'll have some issues imo.
Why does this topic resurface 100 times a month, despite the answer never changing? Korea presents the densest population of high tier pro-gamers along with the strongest competition and most cutthroat environment. Korean players are forced to practice more and focus harder in order to remain competitive with their peers. The foreigners who have been able to hold their own against Koreans are the ones who try to emulate their practice methods. Which means, grinding out tons of games and making sure your build/execution is finely tuned and well oiled. Where a foreigner might play 20 games a day, a Korean is playing 60 games a day. The same concept applies to any sport.
Unless you think Koreans are biologically predisposed to owning white dudes, then the only logical answer would be practice regimen/culture.
On June 26 2012 02:49 Zren89 wrote: As a community, we should be focused mainly on improving at ALL levels of the game, and I believe this tracends even game-play itself, and goes into areas that are mainly the responsibility of tournaments and event orginzers. In order to be involved in this "next-wave" of e-sports in the west we have to support and grow entities like MLG and IPL and NASL, so that we have some reason for e-sports to even matter outside of SK. This is already happening though and I'm pretty happy with the way things are panning out hus far so I won't go into too much detail there.
That being said, everyone (that matters) in NA<EU<KR is completely focused on getting better at all times in all situations. But practice regimen is very dependant on the style of tournament that you are playing in. If it is an MLG the raw talent type of players tend to do very very well there, such as a Huk, DRG, or MKP, they are very talented and macro-capable players (an argument could be made for MKP being a win at all costs type but he has proven his raw skill mutlpile times now in the MLG'esque format) but if they are going into a tourney like the GSL and they have LOADS of time between games and opponents and even match-ups! then the win at all costs mentality becomes tantamount to being successful in said format. MVP preparing the "cheesy" builds he did against Nani and Nani being completely caught off-guard by them was a prime example of this type of preparation and mentality.
All in all its an interesting discussion but I think that Foreigners are already matching a lot of the current SC2 players in raw skill and some of them even in preparation and mentalitly. But those that do the best, those that we remember (both foreigner and Korean) are going to be those that manage to find a balance between the two and shine in both lights, so that they get more titles and more prestige, and thus win our hearts :D
Thanks for putting in the time and effort man, cheers!
I would argue it's stagnating actually, with a few exceptions of up and coming players, the Korean scene is dominated by young talent and we have the "old" dogs who never really went away, and a few new faces.
We just don't have a competitive platform for younger players to improve, and as much as regime is discussed, if we're practicing with a little league coach and they've got an entire MLB staff behind them (comparing skill level between NA and KR) than they've simply just got an advantage we won't match, we need to build from the ground up. Pro's might be doing fine now, but 2 years? We'll have some issues imo.
No, I don't think that your reservations about the "scene" and foreigner ability/involvement is warranted at this time, with teams like EG and Complexity and Quantic and even the new house that Ministry of Win has set up in Poland, I think that e-sports and SC2 specifically are being taken much more seriously by a lot of teams and individuals as well. Many up and coming NA and EU players, like Snute and Vibe, Fizyhere just got on Root and things really just look to be going up and up and up haha. I see no issues and I'm actually quite optimistic about the future of foreigner competitive ability, SK is the on that is falling behind in SC2 they just now got their "premier" players into the game, and they still have the same "houses" the way they did before, they are good no doubt but we are catching up, both in results and mentality.
I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.
If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...
Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.
It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen.
On June 26 2012 02:44 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Can we actually stay on topic guys? I understand I messed up, and it was funny, but its over now so please go on topic. Thank you.
Well seeing as your thread history is not that great, posts are quite lack luster, and you are new to the community I already find you incredibly annoying.
On topic. There are so many threads that discuss this to death. It seems like you just took all those existing questions on foreigners vs pros and put them into this one. But this thread doesn't serve a purpose in the SC2 general. It's more a blog of how you feel about SC2 and what you perceive the community feels about pros. And you hope other people can share there feelings with you.
1. You lost me at "Koreans play to win". That's insulting to foreigners. I would hate to be one of them reading that. I'm sure Naniwa had a strong mentality that MVP had in the GSL last season. He just got beat. Does that mean he played to entertain or played to lose? So confusing.
2. I feel like your point of this thread is that cheesing is the key to foreigners winning more tournaments against Koreans. I highly doubt that when a pro is playing in a tournament, they are playing so they can improve. In that moment they are as good as the could have trained, and if cheesing fits into their strategy then it does. But cheesing as the key ingredient to the climb is just wrong. In practice they should focus on macro games because if you survive the cheese then you need to have the skills to follow up in the mid/late game.
3. Does the concept of winning take the backseat to improving and is this good or bad?This is a terrible question. Winning in a tournament is all that is the focus of a player. Again,while they improve in a tournament game, they are playing all their cards in those matches not trying to practice like on ladder.
4. Is Korea a more exploitative environment in general? And is that a pro or a con if we move it into the NA (specifically) or EU regions. your reply "From personal experience , yes Korea is a much more exploitive environment in which any mistake you make is harshly dismantled and you in the end have to either fix your play style, or lose…"
Where is the evidence of this! This is just insulting to Korea. Do you even know what exploitative environment means? Please have some respect when you talk about a countries community you do not know.
On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote: I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.
If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...
Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.
It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen.
Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is?
EDITT : Serious stuff now, I feel like this also has to do with how Progaming is viewed in different parts of the world, you have much more to gain to be a pro in Korea than being a pro in, lets say US. You have much more recognition ans support by the people surrounding you when you live in a country where ESPORTS is recognized and accepted, hence more motivation and better mindset.
On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote: I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.
If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...
Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.
It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen.
Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is?
Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for.
DAAAAmn long post, very nice though. Good summary. Saw some of this in the TL documentary recently. With regard to your topics I choose topic one. I hate Cheese, can't stand to play it and it is part of the reason that I stopped playing 1v1's. With that said though at the pro level I expect to see it and am often blown away by the skill required in a fight between a handful of units and an entire mineral line.
I would say cheese is fine for trying to win and maybe we should look on it more positively. However when I am playing for fun in 1v1's I will probably never look on it with anything other than disdain.
On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote: I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.
If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...
Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.
It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen.
Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is?
Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for.
Edit: You're the man now, dog.
Do you know the answer? Because if not that's what we're here to discuss. Why is the level of competition in SK so much higher than anywhere else? I don't have an answer, this was to discuss that.
On June 26 2012 03:20 kanada wrote: DAAAAmn long post, very nice though. Good summary. Saw some of this in the TL documentary recently. With regard to your topics I choose topic one. I hate Cheese, can't stand to play it and it is part of the reason that I stopped playing 1v1's. With that said though at the pro level I expect to see it and am often blown away by the skill required in a fight between a handful of units and an entire mineral line.
I would say cheese is fine for trying to win and maybe we should look on it more positively. However when I am playing for fun in 1v1's I will probably never look on it with anything other than disdain.
Did you ever think this mentality stopped you from personally improving? Or no?
On June 26 2012 03:20 kanada wrote: DAAAAmn long post, very nice though. Good summary. Saw some of this in the TL documentary recently. With regard to your topics I choose topic one. I hate Cheese, can't stand to play it and it is part of the reason that I stopped playing 1v1's. With that said though at the pro level I expect to see it and am often blown away by the skill required in a fight between a handful of units and an entire mineral line.
I would say cheese is fine for trying to win and maybe we should look on it more positively. However when I am playing for fun in 1v1's I will probably never look on it with anything other than disdain.
Did you ever think this mentality stopped you from personally improving? Or no?
Did you read his post? It was the number of people cheesing him that made him stop playing. It wasn't the mentality of people and even he said he thinks its fine that people cheese. He just got tired of playing against it. So obviously if he's not playing the game it's stopping him from improving.
On June 26 2012 03:20 kanada wrote: DAAAAmn long post, very nice though. Good summary. Saw some of this in the TL documentary recently. With regard to your topics I choose topic one. I hate Cheese, can't stand to play it and it is part of the reason that I stopped playing 1v1's. With that said though at the pro level I expect to see it and am often blown away by the skill required in a fight between a handful of units and an entire mineral line.
I would say cheese is fine for trying to win and maybe we should look on it more positively. However when I am playing for fun in 1v1's I will probably never look on it with anything other than disdain.
Did you ever think this mentality stopped you from personally improving? Or no?
Did you read his post? It was the number of people cheesing him that made him stop playing. It wasn't the mentality of people and even he said he thinks its fine that people cheese. He just got tired of playing against it. So obviously if he's not playing the game it's stopping him from improving.
I understand that he stopped playing, my question was referring before he gave up, did his mentality as a player who hated being placed in those specific situations end up making him angry about losing, while he was simply trying to just improve? It is my opinion this "anger" towards rushing/cheesing causes a lot of players to just get pissed and drop what they're doing. I can see you're acting in a mildy ironic and condescending way with your posts, seeing as you referenced me as annoying yet post diligently in an offensive manner.
The question is; within a year, will foreigners be able to compete against players that are backed up by huge corporations and practice 10 to more hours a day in well organized schedules?
On June 26 2012 03:31 Kergy wrote: The question is, will foreigners be able to compete against players that are backed up by huge corporations and practice 10 to more hours a day in well organized schedules?
I kind of meant this topic to go into a more broader term (high level players in the foreign scene yes, but even lower quality) so when we compare Koreans who are not backed by huge corporations and don't practice 10 hour to foreigners doing the same, there still lies a stronger edge on the Korean side.
So my question is, why do you think that is? And will that ever get closer?
On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote: I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.
If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...
Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.
It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen.
Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is?
Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for.
Edit: You're the man now, dog.
Do you know the answer? Because if not that's what we're here to discuss. Why is the level of competition in SK so much higher than anywhere else? I don't have an answer, this was to discuss that.
Try reading my earlier posts or Avilo's and you might get some clues.
I think playing to win is the correct mind set in tournaments. Honestly, every single MLG/IPL I don't see why foreign players can't win. It may sound silly, but I refuse to accept the notion that korean's will always be better. However you could make an agruement the reason the korean's get more wins is that there are simply more of them in pool play. Where as dreamhack had foreigners do very well, maybe the lack of koreans there is something to say.
On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote: I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.
If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...
Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.
It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen.
Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is?
Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for.
Edit: You're the man now, dog.
Do you know the answer? Because if not that's what we're here to discuss. Why is the level of competition in SK so much higher than anywhere else? I don't have an answer, this was to discuss that.
Try reading my earlier posts or Avilo's and you might get some clues.
"Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do."
So you're saying all Korean players live in teamhouses in Korea? Like every single person playing that Korean ladder? Like I said, in my previous post you seemed to have ignored, this is broader than the people who are playing professionally right now. The players not in a team house are also just plain better than any average foreigner master player, so why is that level of competition so high (like I previously asked)? I can understand on the highest of high levels, it makes perfect sense, but even down the ladder it favors korean skill over foreigner.
It's the mindset. Westerners in average do not play as much, are not as dedicated and easily give up once they hit a rough patch.
And of course, we have the exceptions, such as Naniwa, who made a deep run in the GSL Code S.
Most koreans are playing like crazy, sacrificing everything to become the best even if they go by unnoticed for years. How many westerners give up if they don't get the results they want? How many westerners are willing to invest 14-16 hours a day, every day, towards becoming the best?
Also, westerners stream too much which cuts into their actual practice regime. Streaming is useless for the purpose of raising your skill level and koreans know this.
On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote: I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.
If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...
Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.
It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen.
Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is?
Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for.
Edit: You're the man now, dog.
Do you know the answer? Because if not that's what we're here to discuss. Why is the level of competition in SK so much higher than anywhere else? I don't have an answer, this was to discuss that.
Try reading my earlier posts or Avilo's and you might get some clues.
"Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do."
So you're saying all Korean players live in teamhouses in Korea? Like every single person playing that Korean ladder? Like I said, in my previous post you seemed to have ignored, this is broader than the people who are playing professionally right now. The players not in a team house are also just plain better than any average foreigner master player, so why is that level of competition so high (like I previously asked)? I can understand on the highest of high levels, it makes perfect sense, but even down the ladder it favors korean skill over foreigner.
I'd bet it just comes down to the average master's player on KR plays more games/day than the average master's player in EU/NA. Why does it have to be more complicated than that? Your asking simple questions and when people give you the obvious answers you demand something more complicated.
The person who posted "Why is USA better at basketball/EU better at soccer" meant to point out how obvious the answer to your question is, yet you totally missed his point.
On June 26 2012 03:46 Mr.Faces wrote: It's the mindset. Westerners in average do not play as much, are not as dedicated and easily give up once they hit a rough patch.
And of course, we have the exceptions, such as Naniwa, who made a deep run in the GSL Code S.
Most koreans are playing like crazy, sacrificing everything to become the best even if they go by unnoticed for years. How many westerners give up if they don't get the results they want? How many westerners are willing to invest 14-16 hours a day, every day, towards becoming the best?
Also, westerners stream too much which cuts into their actual practice regime. Streaming is useless for the purpose of raising your skill level and koreans know this.
I don't know of many who go 14-16 a day's... KR or NA/EU but I get your point.
On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote: I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.
If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...
Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.
It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen.
Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is?
Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for.
Edit: You're the man now, dog.
Do you know the answer? Because if not that's what we're here to discuss. Why is the level of competition in SK so much higher than anywhere else? I don't have an answer, this was to discuss that.
Try reading my earlier posts or Avilo's and you might get some clues.
"Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do."
So you're saying all Korean players live in teamhouses in Korea? Like every single person playing that Korean ladder? Like I said, in my previous post you seemed to have ignored, this is broader than the people who are playing professionally right now. The players not in a team house are also just plain better than any average foreigner master player, so why is that level of competition so high (like I previously asked)? I can understand on the highest of high levels, it makes perfect sense, but even down the ladder it favors korean skill over foreigner.
I'd bet it just comes down to the average master's player on KR plays more games/day than the average master's player in EU/NA. Why does it have to be more complicated than that? Your asking simple questions and when people give you the obvious answers you demand something more complicated.
The person who posted "Why is USA better at basketball/EU better at soccer" meant to point out how obvious the answer to your question is, yet you totally missed his point.
It doesn't have to be more complicated than that at all, his "obvious answer" was actually a question in which I missed his his point, which happens. So you believe that they just play more, and they're simply better because of it?
On June 26 2012 03:46 Mr.Faces wrote: It's the mindset. Westerners in average do not play as much, are not as dedicated and easily give up once they hit a rough patch.
And of course, we have the exceptions, such as Naniwa, who made a deep run in the GSL Code S.
Most koreans are playing like crazy, sacrificing everything to become the best even if they go by unnoticed for years. How many westerners give up if they don't get the results they want? How many westerners are willing to invest 14-16 hours a day, every day, towards becoming the best?
Also, westerners stream too much which cuts into their actual practice regime. Streaming is useless for the purpose of raising your skill level and koreans know this.
I don't know of many who go 14-16 a day's... KR or NA/EU but I get your point.
forgg has got to be cutting close. He is almost always streaming
Koreans have a stronger work ethic. They practice more.
Even koreans playing at home, not living in a team house. Most code B and maybe even code A players are not all on teams. And every single one of them have a good shot at beating ANY top foreigner, nevermind the skill gap on the ladders.
On June 26 2012 03:46 Mr.Faces wrote: It's the mindset. Westerners in average do not play as much, are not as dedicated and easily give up once they hit a rough patch.
And of course, we have the exceptions, such as Naniwa, who made a deep run in the GSL Code S.
Most koreans are playing like crazy, sacrificing everything to become the best even if they go by unnoticed for years. How many westerners give up if they don't get the results they want? How many westerners are willing to invest 14-16 hours a day, every day, towards becoming the best?
Also, westerners stream too much which cuts into their actual practice regime. Streaming is useless for the purpose of raising your skill level and koreans know this.
I don't know of many who go 14-16 a day's... KR or NA/EU but I get your point.
forgg has got to be cutting close. He is almost always streaming
You got me, he is pretty crazy when it comes to streaming.
2.Does the concept of winning take the backseat to improving and is this good or bad? Is winning at all cost a good mentality, or is it faulty?
I think Naniwa really has this mindset and he's doing incredibly well because he doesn't really care much for streaming or salary as income. He really plays to win, and he's been quite successful at showing us that.
I personally think playing on lan is a huge factor. And from my experience myself and people i know benefitted in improving while lanning, not online. And mindset, the bad bw players i knew were "i suck so ill just fck around and enjoy" like bgh. Meanwhile the koreans i knew and myself constantly played by competing with each other. Of course this is generalization, both aspects exist in both sides but i witnessed more koreans playing to compete with each other.
There is a huge difference between doing a cheese against a specific opponent to exploit a hole in their game, and doing cheese as a generic substitute for actual skill and mechanics. Threads should promote macro games and deride cheese, because we do not cater to tournament players but to ladder players with weak mechanics.
On June 26 2012 03:20 kanada wrote: DAAAAmn long post, very nice though. Good summary. Saw some of this in the TL documentary recently. With regard to your topics I choose topic one. I hate Cheese, can't stand to play it and it is part of the reason that I stopped playing 1v1's. With that said though at the pro level I expect to see it and am often blown away by the skill required in a fight between a handful of units and an entire mineral line.
I would say cheese is fine for trying to win and maybe we should look on it more positively. However when I am playing for fun in 1v1's I will probably never look on it with anything other than disdain.
Did you ever think this mentality stopped you from personally improving? Or no?
Did you read his post? It was the number of people cheesing him that made him stop playing. It wasn't the mentality of people and even he said he thinks its fine that people cheese. He just got tired of playing against it. So obviously if he's not playing the game it's stopping him from improving.
I understand that he stopped playing, my question was referring before he gave up, did his mentality as a player who hated being placed in those specific situations end up making him angry about losing, while he was simply trying to just improve? It is my opinion this "anger" towards rushing/cheesing causes a lot of players to just get pissed and drop what they're doing. I can see you're acting in a mildy ironic and condescending way with your posts, seeing as you referenced me as annoying yet post diligently in an offensive manner.
Hope that clears it up.
I would most certainly say it hindered my skill and stopped me from improving my 1v1. The real issue would be how angry/upset/dissappointed ( whatever it was ) after losing. This lead me to playing team games. A lot of this is also ladder fear, but I would always feel so good after playing a long macro 1v1 win or lose. After playing a short cheesy game that I lose however I would feel much worse than the wins.
That's where team games come in. Even if I get quadruple cheesed I can feel like it wasn't 100% my fault for losing. Not to mention it is always fun to have someone on skype to play with.
I think Totalbiscut summed it up perfectly Foreigners need to get their act together and get on true practice schedules. Basically just stop f--king around. That's something I found both funny and annoying at the same time in the Liquid Rising video, how everyone would say "oh he could be so much better if blah blah blah". It's just a scapegoat on their part. If they truly wanted to be better they would be but they're content with where they are at the moment and that's the issue.
There is way more koreans that play starcraft seriously, so naturally there is more top level koreans. It's the same reason why Canadians dominate hockey, Americans dominate basketball and Brazil is awesome at soccer people in those countries grow up around those sports and dream of becoming those players go through NA and you'll find most 16 year olds would rather be winning the world series than the GSL hell most of them won't even be able to tell you what the GSL is.
Hasn't this been discussed to death already? There are more Koreans who have a better mentality towards the game, korean teams have different expectations of their players, players on average are willing to sacrifice more to become the best, there are economical reasons, the way teams are managed...etc...etc...
It is very simply, the foreign players you mention are willing and able to focus purely on practice, not on streaming, not on pleasing sponsors, not on showing up on talk shows... They delay school, they go to korea so they can play against more players who take it seriously, they spend full time+ on practice...And also, they only need to win, there are no extras.
For example, Thorzain might drop in skill pretty fast if he is forced into the standard foreigner EG regime...That is, results don't matter as long as you stream, sit on enough talk shows, and mention the sponsors enough. By the way, I am not saying that it is bad that EG does this, it just does not lead to the best performance of their players. It does however lead to a more sustainable business. And this is the same for many foreigners, they need to stream or make their sponsors happy, the only way you don't need to do this is when you are at the very top already.
On June 26 2012 02:43 Colocolo wrote: tbh I think foreigners are more and more closing the gap
especially: Stephano, Sase, Naniwa beating Code-S players in tourneys atm.
So there might be no basis for any discussion?
While i can see the reasoning why a lot of people would think this way, (be it legitimate or just blind faith) but i think if we all keep in mind that Korea isn't even 100 % into this game. SC2 is not a main sport in Korea and STILL they are miles ahead of us. (Major tournament results prove how far Koreans are and you must keep in mind that in foreign tournaments we, the foreigners, actually have the upper hand in our "house" so to speak)
People need to realize that once these BW pros pick up SC2 it will be the end of 95% of foreigners' chances winning any major tournaments IF we keep at this pace.
With that being said i think the OP was right in realizing that Koreans aren't born with an innate ability to play starcraft; to put it bluntly foreigners are just lazy and don't practice with the same efficiency Koreans do. I would be very interested in hearing what everyone else has to say!
Have you ever thought that maybe there is something inherently embibed into the Korean/Asian race that makes them better at RTS games? I mean, anyone who has ever watched professional Basketball, Football, Track&Field will see that there's something about the Black race that makes them better at those sports (being taller, faster, stronger, etc). Why can't there be something similar for E-sports?
If I went to NBA.com or whatever and made a thread complaining about how there aren't enough white people in the NBA, how I would be more interested in the NBA if only there were more personalities I could relate to, etc, I would be called a racist and banned. However that's like all people talk about on this site, and no one even thinks twice about it possibly being racist.
The gap exists because Korea embraced esports and an organized system of teams and tournaments with lots of prize money came into being. If you were good enough, you could make a very good living playing StarCraft. It created a culture that doesn't really exist in the west.
It's nothing to do with mentality or whatever. It's just never been possible for westerners to make a reasonable living off StarCraft until now and so we lack the both the infrastructure and the large pool of talented pros and aspiring pros. Korea got a decade long head start and that's not going to be overcome in a short period of time.
On June 26 2012 05:28 chillpenguin wrote: Have you ever thought that maybe there is something inherently embibed into the Korean/Asian race that makes them better at RTS games? I mean, anyone who has ever watched professional Basketball, Football, Track&Field will see that there's something about the Black race that makes them better at those sports (being taller, faster, stronger, etc). Why can't there be something similar for E-sports?
If I went to NBA.com or whatever and made a thread complaining about how there aren't enough white people in the NBA, how I would be more interested in the NBA if only there were more personalities I could relate to, etc, I would be called a racist and banned. However that's like all people talk about on this site, and no one even thinks twice about it possibly being racist.
Everyone has thought that at some point. But that doesn't make it true. Really all you are seeing is people who are willing to give their all to be the best they can vs. people who are content to be one of the best.
If foreigners wanted to truly be on the same levels as Koreans they could be. There's nothing different between the two expect for appearance and language.
To be honest, I think the gap between the top foreigners and the top koreans is closer than it's been in a long while.
Are there more top koreans than there are top foreigners? Of course; Korean teams can maintain larger rosters in better practice environments for less money. The Korean server is the best in the world. The depth of the Korean scene isn't surprising at all. But the top foreigners are closer to the top Koreans than at any point in the past year and a half, imo.
It's unreasonable of us to expect to achieve Korean depth at the top. But not for our top 6-15 players to be able to compete head on with the Koreans, which is exactly what they're doing.
On June 26 2012 05:28 chillpenguin wrote: Have you ever thought that maybe there is something inherently embibed into the Korean/Asian race that makes them better at RTS games? I mean, anyone who has ever watched professional Basketball, Football, Track&Field will see that there's something about the Black race that makes them better at those sports (being taller, faster, stronger, etc). Why can't there be something similar for E-sports?
If I went to NBA.com or whatever and made a thread complaining about how there aren't enough white people in the NBA, how I would be more interested in the NBA if only there were more personalities I could relate to, etc, I would be called a racist and banned. However that's like all people talk about on this site, and no one even thinks twice about it possibly being racist.
Everyone has thought that at some point. But that doesn't make it true. Really all you are seeing is people who are willing to give their all to be the best they can vs. people who are content to be one of the best.
If foreigners wanted to truly be on the same levels as Koreans they could be. There's nothing different between the two expect for appearance and language.
But do you know that that isn't true? What if there is something about a Korean's brain that makes them better at multitasking, or something better about their wrists that makes them have more precise and quicker mouse movement? Just like some races are predisposed to be taller, faster, stronger, why can't others be predisposed for their brain's to work in different and better ways? The brain is just another part of your body like your legs or arms. It's a touchy subject, but you can't completely disregard this possibility.
This thread is more like an excuse for losing to Koreans and being bad at the game to me. Doesn't matter what you chose, cheesing, all in, macro, carrot or target, Koreans are always better and will always be better. There's no closing-the-skill-gap there. Just face it! Koreans are better at Starcraft; and I'm not saying whether they're natually good at it.
On June 26 2012 08:08 NoGasfOu wrote: This thread is more like an excuse for losing to Koreans and being bad at the game to me. Doesn't matter what you chose, cheesing, all in, macro, carrot or target, Koreans are always better and will always be better. There's no closing-the-skill-gap there. Just face it! Koreans are better at Starcraft; and I'm not saying whether they're natually good at it.
Your penis is always going to be smaller and always will be smaller than everyone else's. There's no closing-the-size-gap there. Just face it! Your penis is small and I'm not saying whether its naturally so or not.
On June 26 2012 05:28 chillpenguin wrote: Have you ever thought that maybe there is something inherently embibed into the Korean/Asian race that makes them better at RTS games? I mean, anyone who has ever watched professional Basketball, Football, Track&Field will see that there's something about the Black race that makes them better at those sports (being taller, faster, stronger, etc). Why can't there be something similar for E-sports?
If I went to NBA.com or whatever and made a thread complaining about how there aren't enough white people in the NBA, how I would be more interested in the NBA if only there were more personalities I could relate to, etc, I would be called a racist and banned. However that's like all people talk about on this site, and no one even thinks twice about it possibly being racist.
Everyone has thought that at some point. But that doesn't make it true. Really all you are seeing is people who are willing to give their all to be the best they can vs. people who are content to be one of the best.
If foreigners wanted to truly be on the same levels as Koreans they could be. There's nothing different between the two expect for appearance and language.
But do you know that that isn't true? What if there is something about a Korean's brain that makes them better at multitasking, or something better about their wrists that makes them have more precise and quicker mouse movement? Just like some races are predisposed to be taller, faster, stronger, why can't others be predisposed for their brain's to work in different and better ways? The brain is just another part of your body like your legs or arms. It's a touchy subject, but you can't completely disregard this possibility.
Are you seriously attributing Korean dominance in Starcraft to their race? Really? Not only is that an insult to the Koreans who work so hard at the game but it also silly. Do Americans suck at soccer because Brazilians and Spaniards are born with better genetics? No. Are African American athletes better at basketball because they are born with the abilities to dribble and shoot? No. Are Canadians and Russians better at hockey because they have special stick handling and skating abilities? No.
The fact of the matter is that in all of these scenarios the athletes who perform the best are the ones who practice the most and work both the hardest and smartest. In Brazil they start playing samba in the streets of Sao Paulo at a very young age and put in the extra effort. The NBA is dominated by African Americans because they grow up in cities with basketball courts nearby and spend their time playing all day with their friends and competing.
Like a lot of things Starcraft is a skill. And like all skills to get good at it you need to put in the effort. Koreans work harder and smarter than foreigners who are known to be lazy in their own right, and as a consequence the Koreans are dominating. As the BW pros move to sc2 we had better step our game if we want to avoid being overrun.
Well, there are physiological(genetic) differences that do advantage certain races over others. Blacks, generally have more twitch muscles, kenyans longer leg bone ratio giving them an advantage in running. White folk are better swimmers because of our upper body layout, belly button in a different spot or something allowing for a better stroke. To pretend genetics and genetic traits don't or can't play a role in abilities is just because it makes us squeamish how close it treads to racism. For 99% of people it won't matter, but it will come into play when you push yourself to the limits of your ability.
But right now, I think the simple answer is nearly everyone outside of KR does not, or has not implemented an effective practice regime/strategy.
On June 26 2012 08:08 NoGasfOu wrote: This thread is more like an excuse for losing to Koreans and being bad at the game to me. Doesn't matter what you chose, cheesing, all in, macro, carrot or target, Koreans are always better and will always be better. There's no closing-the-skill-gap there. Just face it! Koreans are better at Starcraft; and I'm not saying whether they're natually good at it.
Your penis is always going to be smaller and always will be smaller than everyone else's. There's no closing-the-size-gap there. Just face it! Your penis is small and I'm not saying whether its naturally so or not.
Fail argument. You don't know whether my penis is small. However, everyone is sure that Koreans OWN foreigners in starcraft.
On June 26 2012 04:42 desarrisc wrote: 2.Does the concept of winning take the backseat to improving and is this good or bad? Is winning at all cost a good mentality, or is it faulty?
I think Naniwa really has this mindset and he's doing incredibly well because he doesn't really care much for streaming or salary as income. He really plays to win, and he's been quite successful at showing us that.
Yeah, I would agree that his meticulous work ethic and his quest for wins really propels him high
On June 26 2012 08:08 NoGasfOu wrote: This thread is more like an excuse for losing to Koreans and being bad at the game to me. Doesn't matter what you chose, cheesing, all in, macro, carrot or target, Koreans are always better and will always be better. There's no closing-the-skill-gap there. Just face it! Koreans are better at Starcraft; and I'm not saying whether they're natually good at it.
Its not about being "always" better (genetics?) but about stronger practice environment that will yield results. China had stronger infrastructure than western scene. And PJ was better than Idra, Ret, Nony etc.
On June 26 2012 08:08 NoGasfOu wrote: This thread is more like an excuse for losing to Koreans and being bad at the game to me. Doesn't matter what you chose, cheesing, all in, macro, carrot or target, Koreans are always better and will always be better. There's no closing-the-skill-gap there. Just face it! Koreans are better at Starcraft; and I'm not saying whether they're natually good at it.
Its not about being "always" better (genetics?) but about stronger practice environment that will yield results. China had stronger infrastructure than western scene. And PJ was better than Idra, Ret, Nony etc.
This is exactly it. There's nothing genetically that makes a Korean better at SC2 then a foreigner. Why are people so stupid and racist about it? It's about talent, effort and mentality. A lot of foreigners don't put the effort and don't have the mentality to be on par or better with Koreans, so it's only natural they fall behind.
On June 26 2012 09:21 SupLilSon wrote: Damn, this thread just got pretty racist. You da man.
Nothing racist about science. It might be messier then we like it to be though.
Koreans got that starcraft gene. I think it is related to Azns being good at instruments like the piano also, similar finger movements. Would also explain Dragonforce's insane guitar APM. Alert the Human Genome Project, we've identified a new gene.
On June 26 2012 08:08 NoGasfOu wrote: This thread is more like an excuse for losing to Koreans and being bad at the game to me. Doesn't matter what you chose, cheesing, all in, macro, carrot or target, Koreans are always better and will always be better. There's no closing-the-skill-gap there. Just face it! Koreans are better at Starcraft; and I'm not saying whether they're natually good at it.
Its not about being "always" better (genetics?) but about stronger practice environment that will yield results. China had stronger infrastructure than western scene. And PJ was better than Idra, Ret, Nony etc.
This is exactly it. There's nothing genetically that makes a Korean better at SC2 then a foreigner. Why are people so stupid and racist about it? It's about talent, effort and mentality. A lot of foreigners don't put the effort and don't have the mentality to be on par or better with Koreans, so it's only natural they fall behind.
Not really what i meant exatcly. Saying Koreans are better is still valid, because IN FACT they have better environment than ANYONE else. Since like 10 years. Its pretty normal to see certain nation's being better at certain competitions because of certain factors, like training facilities, infrastructure, mentality, geographical position (in some sports). The reason why Koreans dominate Starcraft 1/2 can't be summarized with 1 sentence ("Others are just lazy").
cheese imo helps the person being cheesed a lot, as it forces them to improve their crisis management dramatically, whereas the cheeser doesn't have to do too much in comparison.
On June 26 2012 02:25 NeMeSiS3 wrote: This is the simple truth, Koreans play to win. They play meticulous, exploitive and ruthless, with no care in the world what you feel about the play style they’re using at that instance because in the end, they want to win above all else.
Anyone remembering Rain apologizing for cheesing his way to the GSL final?
On June 26 2012 02:25 NeMeSiS3 wrote: This is the simple truth, Koreans play to win. They play meticulous, exploitive and ruthless, with no care in the world what you feel about the play style they’re using at that instance because in the end, they want to win above all else.
Anyone remembering Rain apologizing for cheesing his way to the GSL final?
lol well done dude. anyway this thread is stupid, op has no clue about how either of the koreans or foreigners train, but comment on the differences anyway, and a lot of points made are straight up wrong. its just another one of those "foreigners ae lazy/afraid to cheese(lol), and thats why koreans dominate 111!!" thread
On June 26 2012 02:25 NeMeSiS3 wrote: 1. Should cheese/allin oriented play be so heavily shunned? Does it have any value?
2. Does the concept of winning take the backseat to improving and is this good or bad? Is winning at all cost a good mentality, or is it faulty?
3. Is it possible to close the gap? Is the gap related to anything discussed here, why or why not?
4. Is Korea a more exploitative environment in general? And is that a pro or a con if we move it into the NA (specifically) or EU regions.
I'd say this whole thread is "awareness" - that is to say, it identifies some issues, which I think most posters here are more or less aware of (not new players of course). I don't think it improper that this sort of thing be brought up every so often. A part of proper awareness *is*, I think, bringing the "obvious" up every so often. (i.e. if it isn't explicitly identified, then it actually *isn't* obvious to those that were around at the time it was pushed into the general consciousness making it "obvious". So it *isn't* obvious to those.)
As for its value in discussion among veterans, I think it will do little or nothing. My opinion is that in the end everyone's going to have their own opinion that will likely not change too much regardless of how well others express differing opinions. Of course I could be wrong in this. It is to be hoped people will retain open minds. (But really, they don't. Even I don't. =^.^=)
My take -
Suppose in a game of football, there were a tradition - not a rule - that everyone lie on their faces for the first two minutes of the game to honor the King of Finland that invented the game. (I'm making this all up obviously. The King of Finland didn't invent football). Now, suppose you had a team from India that said "The heck with this stupid tradition" (not to come down on Indians, just picking a random nation, maybe because I like curry). So they proceed to score 10 points at the beginning of every game while the opposing team is lying on their faces. Observers could make a point "Oh, you're breaking this proud tradition." Absolutely true. "You're being disrespectful". Yes, also true. But in the end, those traditions have not been codified into the official rules. So you could say in a way that India was being *more* respectful of the actual rules than the rest of the world's players, because they were the ones that *adhered* to the actual rules. Of course, you'd have complaints about "the spirit of the rules" "respect", and so forth. But then, if these were so important, why were they not codified? "Everybody understands it! They don't need to be codified!" Ah, but then, you see, apparently they DO need to be codified. Etc. etc. Tradition? Rules? Which should be respected more?
Personally, I think winning is winning. Cheese, whatever, that's loser talk. (Whoa! What happened to respect? Well, I'm all for respecting things, but when I see a cockroach, I'm going to try to squish it. In the most respectful way, of course. =^.^=)
--
Is it possible to close the gap (between Koreans and non-Koreans (non-Koreans often called "foreigners" for some odd reason) - of COURSE it is. Theoretically. But let's be real here.
In the United States of America, blacks make up 13.6% of the population. But the NBA (National Basketball Assosciation) has 60% blacks. NFL is similar. Now, it's true that there is some difference in reporting these percentages, as for those of Samoan descent, &c. But regardless, blacks are disproportionately represented.
Why is this?
It's too simplistic to say that genetics are the only reason. Socioeconomic, cultural, demonstrable discrimination in other fields pushing blacks into fields such as sports, all play a part. But at the end of the day, you have this big difference, and that difference is not going to go away overnight. Same for Starcraft. It's there.
--
Some people are saying - it's NOT genetics, it's training, it's cultural - why not genetics? If a certain ethnic group tends to be taller than another ethnic group, given the same environmental conditions, nutrition, &c, then why shouldn't one ethnic group tend to have superior Starcraft skills? My thought is that cultural mores indoctrinate people to incorrectly believe that genetics cannot make a difference in performance.
Personally, I think training and environment are far more important, and that although genetics may well be part of the equation, that it is a minor one.
--
Korea is a better environment for SC2. It just is. If nothing else, just because most of the major contenders are there.
Suppose you're training for something or learning something or what have you. Is it easier to shout across the hall "Hey! What's your take on 2 Thor push?" (then you get five of the top contenders in the field giving replies, and maybe you chat up another five or six by dinnertime). Or to look at hours of streaming, make calls, ask around, get translators for Korean, &c? Early dominance feeds late dominance, it's just a fact.
Media trumpet about upsets and how empires are shattered, &c, because it makes good stories. But the fact is, if a group is winning, it tends to keep on winning, just because wins feed into more wins.
--
There could be some reversals; non-Koreans are winning some tournaments. But I think this isn't necessarily indicative of a paradigm shift. Players and teams always go through cyclic periods of higher and lower performance; this could just be one such period in the cycle in which it happens that a few non-Koreans were high on the cycle and the top Koreans low on the cycle. Nothing can be determined until you see constant shift, and IMO that just has not yet happened.
I think in general, though, non-Koreans are acquiring the training skills they need to take them to the top.
Pro or con that things be "moved" to NA/EU? Con of course. Take a very successful restaurant in China and pop in in the United States. Fail. Oh, it might be moderately successful. But you can't just uproot things and shift them to other places. Business connections, relations with suppliers, local reputation built up over time - all these things contribute to success of any particular restaurant.
That is to say, if NA and EU want to be successes, they cannot focus on simply copying the Korean model. (This is for popularity of esports, obtaining corporate sponsorships, and even training players! Because although one might think that training regiments should be similar, the fact is with different socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds, it is natural that the same training regimen would naturally have different level of effectiveness.) NA and EU will have to find their own answers to the Koreans, taking useful elements from their style, but certainly not trying to copy them word for word, as it were.
Even Korean houses have different training regimens. Some are far more structured than others.
(Note - I don't think NA and EU *do* really try to just copy the Korean model. At least in general. This is good.)
On June 26 2012 08:08 NoGasfOu wrote: This thread is more like an excuse for losing to Koreans and being bad at the game to me. Doesn't matter what you chose, cheesing, all in, macro, carrot or target, Koreans are always better and will always be better. There's no closing-the-skill-gap there. Just face it! Koreans are better at Starcraft; and I'm not saying whether they're natually good at it.
Its not about being "always" better (genetics?) but about stronger practice environment that will yield results. China had stronger infrastructure than western scene. And PJ was better than Idra, Ret, Nony etc.
This is exactly it. There's nothing genetically that makes a Korean better at SC2 then a foreigner. Why are people so stupid and racist about it? It's about talent, effort and mentality. A lot of foreigners don't put the effort and don't have the mentality to be on par or better with Koreans, so it's only natural they fall behind.
Not really what i meant exatcly. Saying Koreans are better is still valid, because IN FACT they have better environment than ANYONE else. Since like 10 years. Its pretty normal to see certain nation's being better at certain competitions because of certain factors, like training facilities, infrastructure, mentality, geographical position (in some sports). The reason why Koreans dominate Starcraft 1/2 can't be summarized with 1 sentence ("Others are just lazy").
I am pretty sure you can. starcraft is a game that is totally possible to become real good through self preservation and practices, reliant on others is not a requirement.
Just name me ONE foreigner pro that practices as hard as koreans like forGG. there isn't one base on those that streams
HOTS doesn't magically reset everyone's mechanics. Sure, you'll be able to beat the better player with wonky, weird strategies again, but that's not gonna work for a very long time and it will create the illusion, that the gap is closing when it isn't really.
But it doesn't seem that strange we as non-koreans aren't practising that much. After all in every show you tune in everybody talks about what's important. If you're mediocre, but have a huge following, can give interviews and can tweet a few times a day, you're the baws, whether you are competitive or not. In the last few months EG has does more PR stuff and commercials with their players than anything else. If it's not that important to be really good, then why work yourself into exhaustion for it?
On June 26 2012 08:08 NoGasfOu wrote: This thread is more like an excuse for losing to Koreans and being bad at the game to me. Doesn't matter what you chose, cheesing, all in, macro, carrot or target, Koreans are always better and will always be better. There's no closing-the-skill-gap there. Just face it! Koreans are better at Starcraft; and I'm not saying whether they're natually good at it.
Your penis is always going to be smaller and always will be smaller than everyone else's. There's no closing-the-size-gap there. Just face it! Your penis is small and I'm not saying whether its naturally so or not.
Fail argument. You don't know whether my penis is small. However, everyone is sure that Koreans OWN foreigners in starcraft.
Can we stop the stereotypical remarks on the size of ones penis please, it has no place here...
On June 26 2012 02:25 NeMeSiS3 wrote: This is the simple truth, Koreans play to win. They play meticulous, exploitive and ruthless, with no care in the world what you feel about the play style they’re using at that instance because in the end, they want to win above all else.
Anyone remembering Rain apologizing for cheesing his way to the GSL final?
lol well done dude. anyway this thread is stupid, op has no clue about how either of the koreans or foreigners train, but comment on the differences anyway, and a lot of points made are straight up wrong. its just another one of those "foreigners ae lazy/afraid to cheese(lol), and thats why koreans dominate 111!!" thread
Could you elaborate? It is fine to completely disagree with my post, but without refuting any of the specific arguments that I presented you're blowing dust at the wind in terms of actually having a point.
I didn't say anything about foreigners "afraid" to cheese, my entire point was that in the process of improving (not tournament related) the entire foreign community has issues with cheeses/allins/pressure builds and such in competitive situations this may have an affect since so many Koreans employ these tactics in BO'style formats.
On June 26 2012 08:08 NoGasfOu wrote: This thread is more like an excuse for losing to Koreans and being bad at the game to me. Doesn't matter what you chose, cheesing, all in, macro, carrot or target, Koreans are always better and will always be better. There's no closing-the-skill-gap there. Just face it! Koreans are better at Starcraft; and I'm not saying whether they're natually good at it.
Its not about being "always" better (genetics?) but about stronger practice environment that will yield results. China had stronger infrastructure than western scene. And PJ was better than Idra, Ret, Nony etc.
This is exactly it. There's nothing genetically that makes a Korean better at SC2 then a foreigner. Why are people so stupid and racist about it? It's about talent, effort and mentality. A lot of foreigners don't put the effort and don't have the mentality to be on par or better with Koreans, so it's only natural they fall behind.
Can we all stop with this genetics discussion? Not a single one disagreeing or agreeing has brought any actual evidence to support the claim, they're making (Mainly the person making the claim requires the evidence to be refuted so you especially should stop this conversation unless you can back your statements)... It's getting a bit out of hand, so unless you have relevant data to present, this conversation regarding "Korean genetics" should stop, thank you.
People who have the urge to just type "this thread is stupid" need to just keep it in their head and not spam the thread.
Good thread Nemesis but as for the macro vs cheese discussion it seems more simple in my mind. 1. Should cheese/allin oriented play be so heavily shunned? Does it have any value?
It should only be shunned at the lower levels (I consider Mid-High Masters even low level, probably low-mid GM as well) when you don't have the proper skillset (dexterity) to back it up, cheese just becomes trying to win a useless ladder game. Everyone needs to play to improve, until they reach an amazing amount, then mix it up and learn the ins and outs of the game.
Plus if you really want to play to win, just outmacroing your opponents in any of the "lower" leagues, will get you the win in most cases. If not, at least you can work on your scouting!
cheese/all-in has become so black and white in my opinion with sc2. early aggression, heavy or light is meant to force a reaction from the opponent. even if i cannon rush or 6pool, i play with transition in mind with the mindset of causing some damage to my opponent. if i end the game good, if i dont move on, flow into regular game. why does everyone(majority) think cheese/all-in = the end?
with that said, its harder to make a come back in sc2 oppose to bw imo after failed attempt at drop or rush and timing push or all-in is strong as ever so i think people have no choice but to abuse it to win.
koreans have the infrastructure that allows them to be better at starcraft, and other games for that matter. mainly i think because of LAN. i was surrounded by great cs players during my cs time because we played at LAN and we had pro players to play/practice with. playing online is one thing but being able to talk and see on sight is a huge advantage.
I'm pretty sure cheese is quite well defined as a strategy that must remain hidden until used for it to remain potent. Should not be mistaken for the plethora of early pressure builds and such.
I feel like you're operating under the flawed assumption that the skill gap between Koreans and foreigners is growing but I'm of the opinion that it's shrinking. Then again it's tough to say because SC2 is different from Brood War and SC2 is still very new. We have some great foreigners that other people have mentioned. Thorzain, Stephano, Naniwa, Sase, Ret, ect.
On June 27 2012 06:59 AirbladeOrange wrote: I feel like you're operating under the flawed assumption that the skill gap between Koreans and foreigners is growing but I'm of the opinion that it's shrinking. Then again it's tough to say because SC2 is different from Brood War and SC2 is still very new. We have some great foreigners that other people have mentioned. Thorzain, Stephano, Naniwa, Sase, Ret, ect.
it could also widen as it did with bw but also large part to reducing number of foreign bw players. which i think could happen with sc2 also (many people like to move onto the new stuff). at the same time the pro-scene in korea will bring in new talents more than any other part of the world.
On June 26 2012 05:28 chillpenguin wrote: Have you ever thought that maybe there is something inherently embibed into the Korean/Asian race that makes them better at RTS games? I mean, anyone who has ever watched professional Basketball, Football, Track&Field will see that there's something about the Black race that makes them better at those sports (being taller, faster, stronger, etc). Why can't there be something similar for E-sports?
If I went to NBA.com or whatever and made a thread complaining about how there aren't enough white people in the NBA, how I would be more interested in the NBA if only there were more personalities I could relate to, etc, I would be called a racist and banned. However that's like all people talk about on this site, and no one even thinks twice about it possibly being racist.
Everyone has thought that at some point. But that doesn't make it true. Really all you are seeing is people who are willing to give their all to be the best they can vs. people who are content to be one of the best.
If foreigners wanted to truly be on the same levels as Koreans they could be. There's nothing different between the two expect for appearance and language.
But do you know that that isn't true? What if there is something about a Korean's brain that makes them better at multitasking, or something better about their wrists that makes them have more precise and quicker mouse movement? Just like some races are predisposed to be taller, faster, stronger, why can't others be predisposed for their brain's to work in different and better ways? The brain is just another part of your body like your legs or arms. It's a touchy subject, but you can't completely disregard this possibility.
Are you seriously attributing Korean dominance in Starcraft to their race? Really? Not only is that an insult to the Koreans who work so hard at the game but it also silly. Do Americans suck at soccer because Brazilians and Spaniards are born with better genetics? No. Are African American athletes better at basketball because they are born with the abilities to dribble and shoot? No. Are Canadians and Russians better at hockey because they have special stick handling and skating abilities? No.
The fact of the matter is that in all of these scenarios the athletes who perform the best are the ones who practice the most and work both the hardest and smartest. In Brazil they start playing samba in the streets of Sao Paulo at a very young age and put in the extra effort. The NBA is dominated by African Americans because they grow up in cities with basketball courts nearby and spend their time playing all day with their friends and competing.
Like a lot of things Starcraft is a skill. And like all skills to get good at it you need to put in the effort. Koreans work harder and smarter than foreigners who are known to be lazy in their own right, and as a consequence the Koreans are dominating. As the BW pros move to sc2 we had better step our game if we want to avoid being overrun.
I don't really think the skill gap comes from koreans being "all about winning - cheese or not!". However there is an old famous quote in soccer that states that soccer is played in the middle of the pitch and decided in the areas (in front of the goal). The same thing is true for starcraft. It might be an economical game, but it is very much decided in the engagements and aggressive play will get you trained better for those as there is simply more engagement per time. Furthermore i see a tendency when good players meet truly great players (korean vs foreigners or otherwise). The good players will be able to follow the great players as long as the game is reasonably stale. Then when the action begins you'll slowly but steadily see the great player start to get ahead. Aggressive play once again will get you trained better.
1. Should cheese/allin oriented play be so heavily shunned? Does it have any value?
No, clearly. Yes, clearly.
2. Does the concept of winning take the backseat to improving and is this good or bad? Is winning at all cost a good mentality, or is it faulty?
When did the two become mutually exclusive? Obviously performing the same 1-base all-in every single game will not challenge you much after a couple of hundred repetitions, but the notion that "aggressive play = ladder points, macro play = skill" is faulty, to put it lightly. A player doing only 1 or 2-base all-ins is about as "good" as a player who only does macro games.
On June 27 2012 06:59 AirbladeOrange wrote: I feel like you're operating under the flawed assumption that the skill gap between Koreans and foreigners is growing but I'm of the opinion that it's shrinking. Then again it's tough to say because SC2 is different from Brood War and SC2 is still very new. We have some great foreigners that other people have mentioned. Thorzain, Stephano, Naniwa, Sase, Ret, ect.
it could also widen as it did with bw but also large part to reducing number of foreign bw players. which i think could happen with sc2 also (many people like to move onto the new stuff). at the same time the pro-scene in korea will bring in new talents more than any other part of the world.
It's still an assumption though.
But I agree it could widen in the near future. Once most of Korea switches to SC2 there will be so many talented players on teams that have coaches and practice 10 hours a day. And like you said the foreign scene may thin out giving us less of a pool to get top players from.
But I still think the top foreigners will be able to be competitive with Koreans, probably on more of a code A level. And when I say top I mean no more than 5. But then again I'm not Nostradomus.
Skill gap Yes, to join the choir: Brutal, directed work ethic. TotalBiscuit nailed it in the vid above. I recently was listening to one of the EGers talk about their culture. Sorry for the crude paraphrase but it was essentially, "Yeah, we respect each other's professionalism and let the player dictate their practice regimen. I mean, if somebody is slacking, yeah we might get on their case. But that never happens because we all want to win."
No, practice regimen should be more like: 7:00-9:00 AM Countering the Nexus First (vs. Fred) 9:00-11:00 AM Baneling and zergling micro drills 11:00-12:00 PM Presentation/Lecture/Discussion on One Base Colossus (Johnny) 1:00 PM - 6:00 PM Practice your ass off 7:00 PM - 9:00 PM Weight training [credit where credit's due]
Off the cuff examples, but you get the drift.
Culture and Cheese
I always get the impression that NA loves reveling in how deep SC2 strategy is, and loves thinking their way to skill. 95% of the skill isn't figuring out deep thoughts about how many vikings you need to build to counter broodlords. It's playing for hours on end Viking v. Broodlord with your teammates. I could be wrong, for all I know Korean message boards are full of graduate level theses on bunker rushing and the like. I don't read Korean. But to use chess, a GM once teased amateurs about the "reading and nodding" method of chess improvement, when amateurs would find most improvement by dedicated practical drilling.
It's good that the OP brought up cheese. It's is actually a great example of an opportunity to improve the way TotalBiscuit was advocating. The cheese-hate has always baffled me. When I lose to cheese, I think, "Gosh, I wish I were better at defending against that cheese." It's this strange, cultural beast that developed and was reinforced artificially by this community. It's considered reasonable and legitimate to hate cheese and disdain cheesers, which is of course wrong. What's legitimate is cheese. It's a build, no more no less.
Cheese is an aggressive, early strategy designed to gain an early attacking advantage by sacrificing on economy and development. If it's "coin-tossy", then so be it, your overall skill edge is less than you had thought. Why is your opponent supposed to play to your advantages? If "the cheeser doesn't learn anything", so be it and stop pretending you actually care about your cheesing opponent's improvement path, and stop pretending that laddering needs to be some deep, educational experience. Again, chess players might see analogies to chess gambits. If you get rofl-stomped by gambits, complaining about the ignobility of gambiteers will earn you only deaf ears. You practice enough so you stop getting stomped by gambits. And just as no chess grandmaster is going to lose to your chess gambit, no SC2 grandmaster is going to lose to your so-called 'coin-toss' cheese.
So grab a friend or clan and cheese each other constantly for X days. Look forward to the next cheeser because you're going to slaughter him.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/27Oah.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/maVp1.jpg)
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