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On June 26 2012 03:10 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote:
I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.
If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...
Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.
It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen. Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is?
Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for.
Edit: You're the man now, dog.
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DAAAAmn long post, very nice though. Good summary. Saw some of this in the TL documentary recently. With regard to your topics I choose topic one. I hate Cheese, can't stand to play it and it is part of the reason that I stopped playing 1v1's. With that said though at the pro level I expect to see it and am often blown away by the skill required in a fight between a handful of units and an entire mineral line.
I would say cheese is fine for trying to win and maybe we should look on it more positively. However when I am playing for fun in 1v1's I will probably never look on it with anything other than disdain.
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On June 26 2012 03:13 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:10 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote:
I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.
If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...
Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.
It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen. Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is? Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for. Edit: You're the man now, dog.
Do you know the answer? Because if not that's what we're here to discuss. Why is the level of competition in SK so much higher than anywhere else? I don't have an answer, this was to discuss that.
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On June 26 2012 03:20 kanada wrote:
DAAAAmn long post, very nice though. Good summary. Saw some of this in the TL documentary recently. With regard to your topics I choose topic one. I hate Cheese, can't stand to play it and it is part of the reason that I stopped playing 1v1's. With that said though at the pro level I expect to see it and am often blown away by the skill required in a fight between a handful of units and an entire mineral line.
I would say cheese is fine for trying to win and maybe we should look on it more positively. However when I am playing for fun in 1v1's I will probably never look on it with anything other than disdain.
Did you ever think this mentality stopped you from personally improving? Or no?
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Bisutopia19359 Posts
On June 26 2012 03:22 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:20 kanada wrote:
DAAAAmn long post, very nice though. Good summary. Saw some of this in the TL documentary recently. With regard to your topics I choose topic one. I hate Cheese, can't stand to play it and it is part of the reason that I stopped playing 1v1's. With that said though at the pro level I expect to see it and am often blown away by the skill required in a fight between a handful of units and an entire mineral line.
I would say cheese is fine for trying to win and maybe we should look on it more positively. However when I am playing for fun in 1v1's I will probably never look on it with anything other than disdain. Did you ever think this mentality stopped you from personally improving? Or no?
Did you read his post? It was the number of people cheesing him that made him stop playing. It wasn't the mentality of people and even he said he thinks its fine that people cheese. He just got tired of playing against it. So obviously if he's not playing the game it's stopping him from improving. 
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On June 26 2012 03:25 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:22 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On June 26 2012 03:20 kanada wrote:
DAAAAmn long post, very nice though. Good summary. Saw some of this in the TL documentary recently. With regard to your topics I choose topic one. I hate Cheese, can't stand to play it and it is part of the reason that I stopped playing 1v1's. With that said though at the pro level I expect to see it and am often blown away by the skill required in a fight between a handful of units and an entire mineral line.
I would say cheese is fine for trying to win and maybe we should look on it more positively. However when I am playing for fun in 1v1's I will probably never look on it with anything other than disdain. Did you ever think this mentality stopped you from personally improving? Or no? Did you read his post? It was the number of people cheesing him that made him stop playing. It wasn't the mentality of people and even he said he thinks its fine that people cheese. He just got tired of playing against it. So obviously if he's not playing the game it's stopping him from improving.
I understand that he stopped playing, my question was referring before he gave up, did his mentality as a player who hated being placed in those specific situations end up making him angry about losing, while he was simply trying to just improve? It is my opinion this "anger" towards rushing/cheesing causes a lot of players to just get pissed and drop what they're doing. I can see you're acting in a mildy ironic and condescending way with your posts, seeing as you referenced me as annoying yet post diligently in an offensive manner.
Hope that clears it up.
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The question is; within a year, will foreigners be able to compete against players that are backed up by huge corporations and practice 10 to more hours a day in well organized schedules?
+ Show Spoiler +
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On June 26 2012 03:31 Kergy wrote:The question is, will foreigners be able to compete against players that are backed up by huge corporations and practice 10 to more hours a day in well organized schedules? + Show Spoiler +
I kind of meant this topic to go into a more broader term (high level players in the foreign scene yes, but even lower quality) so when we compare Koreans who are not backed by huge corporations and don't practice 10 hour to foreigners doing the same, there still lies a stronger edge on the Korean side.
So my question is, why do you think that is? And will that ever get closer?
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On June 26 2012 03:21 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:13 SupLilSon wrote:On June 26 2012 03:10 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote:
I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.
If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...
Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.
It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen. Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is? Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for. Edit: You're the man now, dog. Do you know the answer? Because if not that's what we're here to discuss. Why is the level of competition in SK so much higher than anywhere else? I don't have an answer, this was to discuss that.
Try reading my earlier posts or Avilo's and you might get some clues.
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I think playing to win is the correct mind set in tournaments. Honestly, every single MLG/IPL I don't see why foreign players can't win. It may sound silly, but I refuse to accept the notion that korean's will always be better. However you could make an agruement the reason the korean's get more wins is that there are simply more of them in pool play. Where as dreamhack had foreigners do very well, maybe the lack of koreans there is something to say.
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On June 26 2012 03:36 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:21 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On June 26 2012 03:13 SupLilSon wrote:On June 26 2012 03:10 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote:
I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.
If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...
Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.
It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen. Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is? Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for. Edit: You're the man now, dog. Do you know the answer? Because if not that's what we're here to discuss. Why is the level of competition in SK so much higher than anywhere else? I don't have an answer, this was to discuss that. Try reading my earlier posts or Avilo's and you might get some clues.
"Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do."
So you're saying all Korean players live in teamhouses in Korea? Like every single person playing that Korean ladder? Like I said, in my previous post you seemed to have ignored, this is broader than the people who are playing professionally right now. The players not in a team house are also just plain better than any average foreigner master player, so why is that level of competition so high (like I previously asked)? I can understand on the highest of high levels, it makes perfect sense, but even down the ladder it favors korean skill over foreigner.
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It's the mindset. Westerners in average do not play as much, are not as dedicated and easily give up once they hit a rough patch.
And of course, we have the exceptions, such as Naniwa, who made a deep run in the GSL Code S.
Most koreans are playing like crazy, sacrificing everything to become the best even if they go by unnoticed for years. How many westerners give up if they don't get the results they want? How many westerners are willing to invest 14-16 hours a day, every day, towards becoming the best?
Also, westerners stream too much which cuts into their actual practice regime. Streaming is useless for the purpose of raising your skill level and koreans know this.
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On June 26 2012 03:40 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:36 SupLilSon wrote:On June 26 2012 03:21 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On June 26 2012 03:13 SupLilSon wrote:On June 26 2012 03:10 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote:
I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.
If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...
Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.
It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen. Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is? Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for. Edit: You're the man now, dog. Do you know the answer? Because if not that's what we're here to discuss. Why is the level of competition in SK so much higher than anywhere else? I don't have an answer, this was to discuss that. Try reading my earlier posts or Avilo's and you might get some clues. "Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do." So you're saying all Korean players live in teamhouses in Korea? Like every single person playing that Korean ladder? Like I said, in my previous post you seemed to have ignored, this is broader than the people who are playing professionally right now. The players not in a team house are also just plain better than any average foreigner master player, so why is that level of competition so high (like I previously asked)? I can understand on the highest of high levels, it makes perfect sense, but even down the ladder it favors korean skill over foreigner.
I'd bet it just comes down to the average master's player on KR plays more games/day than the average master's player in EU/NA. Why does it have to be more complicated than that? Your asking simple questions and when people give you the obvious answers you demand something more complicated.
The person who posted "Why is USA better at basketball/EU better at soccer" meant to point out how obvious the answer to your question is, yet you totally missed his point.
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On June 26 2012 03:46 Mr.Faces wrote:
It's the mindset. Westerners in average do not play as much, are not as dedicated and easily give up once they hit a rough patch.
And of course, we have the exceptions, such as Naniwa, who made a deep run in the GSL Code S.
Most koreans are playing like crazy, sacrificing everything to become the best even if they go by unnoticed for years. How many westerners give up if they don't get the results they want? How many westerners are willing to invest 14-16 hours a day, every day, towards becoming the best?
Also, westerners stream too much which cuts into their actual practice regime. Streaming is useless for the purpose of raising your skill level and koreans know this.
I don't know of many who go 14-16 a day's... KR or NA/EU but I get your point.
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On June 26 2012 03:47 Dante_A_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:40 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On June 26 2012 03:36 SupLilSon wrote:On June 26 2012 03:21 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On June 26 2012 03:13 SupLilSon wrote:On June 26 2012 03:10 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote:
I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.
If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...
Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.
It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen. Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is? Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for. Edit: You're the man now, dog. Do you know the answer? Because if not that's what we're here to discuss. Why is the level of competition in SK so much higher than anywhere else? I don't have an answer, this was to discuss that. Try reading my earlier posts or Avilo's and you might get some clues. "Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do." So you're saying all Korean players live in teamhouses in Korea? Like every single person playing that Korean ladder? Like I said, in my previous post you seemed to have ignored, this is broader than the people who are playing professionally right now. The players not in a team house are also just plain better than any average foreigner master player, so why is that level of competition so high (like I previously asked)? I can understand on the highest of high levels, it makes perfect sense, but even down the ladder it favors korean skill over foreigner. I'd bet it just comes down to the average master's player on KR plays more games/day than the average master's player in EU/NA. Why does it have to be more complicated than that? Your asking simple questions and when people give you the obvious answers you demand something more complicated. The person who posted "Why is USA better at basketball/EU better at soccer" meant to point out how obvious the answer to your question is, yet you totally missed his point.
It doesn't have to be more complicated than that at all, his "obvious answer" was actually a question in which I missed his his point, which happens. So you believe that they just play more, and they're simply better because of it?
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On June 26 2012 03:48 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:46 Mr.Faces wrote:
It's the mindset. Westerners in average do not play as much, are not as dedicated and easily give up once they hit a rough patch.
And of course, we have the exceptions, such as Naniwa, who made a deep run in the GSL Code S.
Most koreans are playing like crazy, sacrificing everything to become the best even if they go by unnoticed for years. How many westerners give up if they don't get the results they want? How many westerners are willing to invest 14-16 hours a day, every day, towards becoming the best?
Also, westerners stream too much which cuts into their actual practice regime. Streaming is useless for the purpose of raising your skill level and koreans know this. I don't know of many who go 14-16 a day's... KR or NA/EU but I get your point.
forgg has got to be cutting close. He is almost always streaming
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Honestly, the answer is pretty clear.
Koreans have a stronger work ethic. They practice more.
Even koreans playing at home, not living in a team house. Most code B and maybe even code A players are not all on teams. And every single one of them have a good shot at beating ANY top foreigner, nevermind the skill gap on the ladders.
Work ethic. That's all.
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On June 26 2012 03:54 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:48 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On June 26 2012 03:46 Mr.Faces wrote:
It's the mindset. Westerners in average do not play as much, are not as dedicated and easily give up once they hit a rough patch.
And of course, we have the exceptions, such as Naniwa, who made a deep run in the GSL Code S.
Most koreans are playing like crazy, sacrificing everything to become the best even if they go by unnoticed for years. How many westerners give up if they don't get the results they want? How many westerners are willing to invest 14-16 hours a day, every day, towards becoming the best?
Also, westerners stream too much which cuts into their actual practice regime. Streaming is useless for the purpose of raising your skill level and koreans know this. I don't know of many who go 14-16 a day's... KR or NA/EU but I get your point. forgg has got to be cutting close. He is almost always streaming
You got me, he is pretty crazy when it comes to streaming.
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2.Does the concept of winning take the backseat to improving and is this good or bad? Is winning at all cost a good mentality, or is it faulty?
I think Naniwa really has this mindset and he's doing incredibly well because he doesn't really care much for streaming or salary as income. He really plays to win, and he's been quite successful at showing us that. 
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I personally think playing on lan is a huge factor. And from my experience myself and people i know benefitted in improving while lanning, not online. And mindset, the bad bw players i knew were "i suck so ill just fck around and enjoy" like bgh. Meanwhile the koreans i knew and myself constantly played by competing with each other. Of course this is generalization, both aspects exist in both sides but i witnessed more koreans playing to compete with each other.
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EPT
