• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 23:55
CEST 05:55
KST 12:55
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week4[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced6Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles6[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China10Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL70
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings We need to be discussing a new patch right now! Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation RSL Season 1 - Final Week
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Script to open stream directly using middle click
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Last Minute Live-Report Thread Resource! [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread The PlayStation 5 Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Accidental Video Game Porn Archive Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 455 users

Chasing the Carrot or the Target - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next All
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-25 18:14:32
June 25 2012 18:13 GMT
#21
On June 26 2012 03:10 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote:
I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.

If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...

Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.

It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen.


Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is?



Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for.

Edit: You're the man now, dog.
kanada
Profile Joined May 2007
Canada255 Posts
June 25 2012 18:20 GMT
#22
DAAAAmn long post, very nice though. Good summary. Saw some of this in the TL documentary recently. With regard to your topics I choose topic one. I hate Cheese, can't stand to play it and it is part of the reason that I stopped playing 1v1's. With that said though at the pro level I expect to see it and am often blown away by the skill required in a fight between a handful of units and an entire mineral line.

I would say cheese is fine for trying to win and maybe we should look on it more positively. However when I am playing for fun in 1v1's I will probably never look on it with anything other than disdain.
NeMeSiS3
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada2972 Posts
June 25 2012 18:21 GMT
#23
On June 26 2012 03:13 SupLilSon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2012 03:10 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote:
I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.

If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...

Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.

It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen.


Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is?



Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for.

Edit: You're the man now, dog.


Do you know the answer? Because if not that's what we're here to discuss. Why is the level of competition in SK so much higher than anywhere else? I don't have an answer, this was to discuss that.
FoTG fighting!
NeMeSiS3
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada2972 Posts
June 25 2012 18:22 GMT
#24
On June 26 2012 03:20 kanada wrote:
DAAAAmn long post, very nice though. Good summary. Saw some of this in the TL documentary recently. With regard to your topics I choose topic one. I hate Cheese, can't stand to play it and it is part of the reason that I stopped playing 1v1's. With that said though at the pro level I expect to see it and am often blown away by the skill required in a fight between a handful of units and an entire mineral line.

I would say cheese is fine for trying to win and maybe we should look on it more positively. However when I am playing for fun in 1v1's I will probably never look on it with anything other than disdain.


Did you ever think this mentality stopped you from personally improving? Or no?
FoTG fighting!
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19230 Posts
June 25 2012 18:25 GMT
#25
On June 26 2012 03:22 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2012 03:20 kanada wrote:
DAAAAmn long post, very nice though. Good summary. Saw some of this in the TL documentary recently. With regard to your topics I choose topic one. I hate Cheese, can't stand to play it and it is part of the reason that I stopped playing 1v1's. With that said though at the pro level I expect to see it and am often blown away by the skill required in a fight between a handful of units and an entire mineral line.

I would say cheese is fine for trying to win and maybe we should look on it more positively. However when I am playing for fun in 1v1's I will probably never look on it with anything other than disdain.


Did you ever think this mentality stopped you from personally improving? Or no?



Did you read his post? It was the number of people cheesing him that made him stop playing. It wasn't the mentality of people and even he said he thinks its fine that people cheese. He just got tired of playing against it. So obviously if he's not playing the game it's stopping him from improving.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
NeMeSiS3
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada2972 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-25 18:29:57
June 25 2012 18:29 GMT
#26
On June 26 2012 03:25 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2012 03:22 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On June 26 2012 03:20 kanada wrote:
DAAAAmn long post, very nice though. Good summary. Saw some of this in the TL documentary recently. With regard to your topics I choose topic one. I hate Cheese, can't stand to play it and it is part of the reason that I stopped playing 1v1's. With that said though at the pro level I expect to see it and am often blown away by the skill required in a fight between a handful of units and an entire mineral line.

I would say cheese is fine for trying to win and maybe we should look on it more positively. However when I am playing for fun in 1v1's I will probably never look on it with anything other than disdain.


Did you ever think this mentality stopped you from personally improving? Or no?



Did you read his post? It was the number of people cheesing him that made him stop playing. It wasn't the mentality of people and even he said he thinks its fine that people cheese. He just got tired of playing against it. So obviously if he's not playing the game it's stopping him from improving.


I understand that he stopped playing, my question was referring before he gave up, did his mentality as a player who hated being placed in those specific situations end up making him angry about losing, while he was simply trying to just improve? It is my opinion this "anger" towards rushing/cheesing causes a lot of players to just get pissed and drop what they're doing. I can see you're acting in a mildy ironic and condescending way with your posts, seeing as you referenced me as annoying yet post diligently in an offensive manner.

Hope that clears it up.
FoTG fighting!
Kergy
Profile Joined December 2010
Peru2011 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-25 18:32:59
June 25 2012 18:31 GMT
#27
The question is; within a year, will foreigners be able to compete against players that are backed up by huge corporations and practice 10 to more hours a day in well organized schedules?

+ Show Spoiler +
I think not.
Everyday Girl's Day~!
NeMeSiS3
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada2972 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-25 18:34:35
June 25 2012 18:34 GMT
#28
On June 26 2012 03:31 Kergy wrote:
The question is, will foreigners be able to compete against players that are backed up by huge corporations and practice 10 to more hours a day in well organized schedules?

+ Show Spoiler +
I think not.


I kind of meant this topic to go into a more broader term (high level players in the foreign scene yes, but even lower quality) so when we compare Koreans who are not backed by huge corporations and don't practice 10 hour to foreigners doing the same, there still lies a stronger edge on the Korean side.

So my question is, why do you think that is? And will that ever get closer?
FoTG fighting!
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
June 25 2012 18:36 GMT
#29
On June 26 2012 03:21 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2012 03:13 SupLilSon wrote:
On June 26 2012 03:10 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote:
I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.

If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...

Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.

It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen.


Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is?



Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for.

Edit: You're the man now, dog.


Do you know the answer? Because if not that's what we're here to discuss. Why is the level of competition in SK so much higher than anywhere else? I don't have an answer, this was to discuss that.


Try reading my earlier posts or Avilo's and you might get some clues.
HeeroFX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2704 Posts
June 25 2012 18:36 GMT
#30
I think playing to win is the correct mind set in tournaments. Honestly, every single MLG/IPL I don't see why foreign players can't win. It may sound silly, but I refuse to accept the notion that korean's will always be better. However you could make an agruement the reason the korean's get more wins is that there are simply more of them in pool play. Where as dreamhack had foreigners do very well, maybe the lack of koreans there is something to say.
NeMeSiS3
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada2972 Posts
June 25 2012 18:40 GMT
#31
On June 26 2012 03:36 SupLilSon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2012 03:21 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On June 26 2012 03:13 SupLilSon wrote:
On June 26 2012 03:10 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote:
I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.

If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...

Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.

It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen.


Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is?



Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for.

Edit: You're the man now, dog.


Do you know the answer? Because if not that's what we're here to discuss. Why is the level of competition in SK so much higher than anywhere else? I don't have an answer, this was to discuss that.


Try reading my earlier posts or Avilo's and you might get some clues.


"Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do."

So you're saying all Korean players live in teamhouses in Korea? Like every single person playing that Korean ladder? Like I said, in my previous post you seemed to have ignored, this is broader than the people who are playing professionally right now. The players not in a team house are also just plain better than any average foreigner master player, so why is that level of competition so high (like I previously asked)? I can understand on the highest of high levels, it makes perfect sense, but even down the ladder it favors korean skill over foreigner.
FoTG fighting!
Mr.Faces
Profile Joined June 2012
United States121 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-25 18:47:40
June 25 2012 18:46 GMT
#32
It's the mindset. Westerners in average do not play as much, are not as dedicated and easily give up once they hit a rough patch.

And of course, we have the exceptions, such as Naniwa, who made a deep run in the GSL Code S.

Most koreans are playing like crazy, sacrificing everything to become the best even if they go by unnoticed for years. How many westerners give up if they don't get the results they want? How many westerners are willing to invest 14-16 hours a day, every day, towards becoming the best?

Also, westerners stream too much which cuts into their actual practice regime. Streaming is useless for the purpose of raising your skill level and koreans know this.
I shall prevail
Dante_A_
Profile Joined September 2010
United States161 Posts
June 25 2012 18:47 GMT
#33
On June 26 2012 03:40 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2012 03:36 SupLilSon wrote:
On June 26 2012 03:21 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On June 26 2012 03:13 SupLilSon wrote:
On June 26 2012 03:10 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote:
I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.

If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...

Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.

It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen.


Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is?



Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for.

Edit: You're the man now, dog.


Do you know the answer? Because if not that's what we're here to discuss. Why is the level of competition in SK so much higher than anywhere else? I don't have an answer, this was to discuss that.


Try reading my earlier posts or Avilo's and you might get some clues.


"Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do."

So you're saying all Korean players live in teamhouses in Korea? Like every single person playing that Korean ladder? Like I said, in my previous post you seemed to have ignored, this is broader than the people who are playing professionally right now. The players not in a team house are also just plain better than any average foreigner master player, so why is that level of competition so high (like I previously asked)? I can understand on the highest of high levels, it makes perfect sense, but even down the ladder it favors korean skill over foreigner.


I'd bet it just comes down to the average master's player on KR plays more games/day than the average master's player in EU/NA. Why does it have to be more complicated than that? Your asking simple questions and when people give you the obvious answers you demand something more complicated.

The person who posted "Why is USA better at basketball/EU better at soccer" meant to point out how obvious the answer to your question is, yet you totally missed his point.
NeMeSiS3
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada2972 Posts
June 25 2012 18:48 GMT
#34
On June 26 2012 03:46 Mr.Faces wrote:
It's the mindset. Westerners in average do not play as much, are not as dedicated and easily give up once they hit a rough patch.

And of course, we have the exceptions, such as Naniwa, who made a deep run in the GSL Code S.

Most koreans are playing like crazy, sacrificing everything to become the best even if they go by unnoticed for years. How many westerners give up if they don't get the results they want? How many westerners are willing to invest 14-16 hours a day, every day, towards becoming the best?

Also, westerners stream too much which cuts into their actual practice regime. Streaming is useless for the purpose of raising your skill level and koreans know this.


I don't know of many who go 14-16 a day's... KR or NA/EU but I get your point.
FoTG fighting!
NeMeSiS3
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada2972 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-25 18:51:45
June 25 2012 18:51 GMT
#35
On June 26 2012 03:47 Dante_A_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2012 03:40 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On June 26 2012 03:36 SupLilSon wrote:
On June 26 2012 03:21 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On June 26 2012 03:13 SupLilSon wrote:
On June 26 2012 03:10 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On June 26 2012 03:02 avilo wrote:
I don't think you understand about the "playing standard and well mechanically" and "cheesing and playing to win." Every player plays to win, not just koreans. And the ones that are only good at cheesing have been phased out ages ago, like bitbybit.

If you look at NA server, most of the kids do all-ins a large percentage of the time, and then people wonder why they aren't improving...

Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do.

It basically comes down to the korean practice environment/regimen.


Not every Korean lives in a team house, so my counterargument would be how come the KR ladder is so much more competitive (and aggressive in terms of the forms of allins and the exploits of play) over say EU or NA? You're point is it's not a magical secret they live in team houses so the practice enviroment is better, but that can't explain the thousands of gamer's who are just simply better than most of the NA server. There must be some environment that is causing the level of play outside of those specific house (lower in the ladder) to be higher than here, what would you say that is?



Why is the level of competition of Football in Europe so much higher than in North America? Why is the level of competition of Basketball in North America so much higher than in Europe? When you find the answer to those questions you will find what you are looking for.

Edit: You're the man now, dog.


Do you know the answer? Because if not that's what we're here to discuss. Why is the level of competition in SK so much higher than anywhere else? I don't have an answer, this was to discuss that.


Try reading my earlier posts or Avilo's and you might get some clues.


"Korean players just have a better practice environment and that's been known for a while. It's not magical secret. They live in team houses and discuss the game together, and the team houses elsewhere slack off too much and don't have as much work ethic as the korean pro houses do."

So you're saying all Korean players live in teamhouses in Korea? Like every single person playing that Korean ladder? Like I said, in my previous post you seemed to have ignored, this is broader than the people who are playing professionally right now. The players not in a team house are also just plain better than any average foreigner master player, so why is that level of competition so high (like I previously asked)? I can understand on the highest of high levels, it makes perfect sense, but even down the ladder it favors korean skill over foreigner.


I'd bet it just comes down to the average master's player on KR plays more games/day than the average master's player in EU/NA. Why does it have to be more complicated than that? Your asking simple questions and when people give you the obvious answers you demand something more complicated.

The person who posted "Why is USA better at basketball/EU better at soccer" meant to point out how obvious the answer to your question is, yet you totally missed his point.


It doesn't have to be more complicated than that at all, his "obvious answer" was actually a question in which I missed his his point, which happens. So you believe that they just play more, and they're simply better because of it?
FoTG fighting!
iky43210
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2099 Posts
June 25 2012 18:54 GMT
#36
On June 26 2012 03:48 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2012 03:46 Mr.Faces wrote:
It's the mindset. Westerners in average do not play as much, are not as dedicated and easily give up once they hit a rough patch.

And of course, we have the exceptions, such as Naniwa, who made a deep run in the GSL Code S.

Most koreans are playing like crazy, sacrificing everything to become the best even if they go by unnoticed for years. How many westerners give up if they don't get the results they want? How many westerners are willing to invest 14-16 hours a day, every day, towards becoming the best?

Also, westerners stream too much which cuts into their actual practice regime. Streaming is useless for the purpose of raising your skill level and koreans know this.


I don't know of many who go 14-16 a day's... KR or NA/EU but I get your point.


forgg has got to be cutting close. He is almost always streaming
InMotion
Profile Joined May 2012
Canada110 Posts
June 25 2012 18:55 GMT
#37
Honestly, the answer is pretty clear.

Koreans have a stronger work ethic. They practice more.

Even koreans playing at home, not living in a team house. Most code B and maybe even code A players are not all on teams. And every single one of them have a good shot at beating ANY top foreigner, nevermind the skill gap on the ladders.

Work ethic. That's all.
NeMeSiS3
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada2972 Posts
June 25 2012 19:00 GMT
#38
On June 26 2012 03:54 iky43210 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2012 03:48 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On June 26 2012 03:46 Mr.Faces wrote:
It's the mindset. Westerners in average do not play as much, are not as dedicated and easily give up once they hit a rough patch.

And of course, we have the exceptions, such as Naniwa, who made a deep run in the GSL Code S.

Most koreans are playing like crazy, sacrificing everything to become the best even if they go by unnoticed for years. How many westerners give up if they don't get the results they want? How many westerners are willing to invest 14-16 hours a day, every day, towards becoming the best?

Also, westerners stream too much which cuts into their actual practice regime. Streaming is useless for the purpose of raising your skill level and koreans know this.


I don't know of many who go 14-16 a day's... KR or NA/EU but I get your point.


forgg has got to be cutting close. He is almost always streaming


You got me, he is pretty crazy when it comes to streaming.
FoTG fighting!
desarrisc
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Canada226 Posts
June 25 2012 19:42 GMT
#39
2.Does the concept of winning take the backseat to improving and is this good or bad? Is winning at all cost a good mentality, or is it faulty?

I think Naniwa really has this mindset and he's doing incredibly well because he doesn't really care much for streaming or salary as income. He really plays to win, and he's been quite successful at showing us that.
"Your opponent's doing anything out of the ordinary? Just go f**king kill him." -Day [9]
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
June 25 2012 20:06 GMT
#40
I personally think playing on lan is a huge factor. And from my experience myself and people i know benefitted in improving while lanning, not online. And mindset, the bad bw players i knew were "i suck so ill just fck around and enjoy" like bgh. Meanwhile the koreans i knew and myself constantly played by competing with each other. Of course this is generalization, both aspects exist in both sides but i witnessed more koreans playing to compete with each other.
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
The PiG Daily
22:50
Best Games of SC
Clem vs ByuN
SHIN vs GuMiho
PiGStarcraft473
LiquipediaDiscussion
SC Evo Complete
22:00
Enki Epic Ser. Taeja vs soO EN
davetesta44
Liquipedia
OSC
20:00
Mid Season Playoffs
Spirit vs GeraldLIVE!
Solar vs ShoWTimE
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft473
Nina 167
RuFF_SC2 152
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 3097
Larva 397
Leta 350
GoRush 58
Aegong 54
NaDa 52
Icarus 7
LuMiX 1
Dota 2
monkeys_forever819
NeuroSwarm112
League of Legends
JimRising 1013
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K580
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor121
Other Games
summit1g9811
shahzam722
ViBE191
C9.Mang0187
Trikslyr62
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick38604
BasetradeTV37
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH287
• Hupsaiya 70
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki12
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos2010
• Scarra1089
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
6h 5m
SHIN vs Clem
Cure vs TBD
FEL
8h 5m
FEL
12h 5m
Gerald vs PAPI
Spirit vs ArT
CSO Cup
12h 5m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
14h 5m
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
DaveTesta Events
14h 5m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 6h
RSL Revival
1d 6h
Classic vs TBD
FEL
1d 11h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 14h
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
[ Show More ]
Wardi Open
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV European League
3 days
PiGosaur Monday
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Epic.LAN
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
HSC XXVII
NC Random Cup

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.