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On August 24 2012 01:55 ImNightmare wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:54 Bagi wrote: Are Kespa players allowed to play in foreign tournaments? No idea, but I read somewhere on this thread that no kespa players will be attending the upcoming MLG. Or did I make a mistake?
Well, no KeSPA players are allowed to enter any tournament without approval from KeSPA, and if they not sending anyone to MLG, highly doubt they would send to any other tournaments.
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I feel like fans in Korea and abroad (like here) are blowing this way out of proportions. You could easily make a list of reasons why KeSPA would want to impose such a rule:
- Schedule conflicts: KeSPA players have the PL and OSL to keep up with - Skill disparity: until PL is fully SC2, KeSPA may want its players to give more adaptation time. Recent WCS games make it look like some players are ready, but that's another length discussion for another time. - Proleague: let's face it, it's downhill right now (with 8 teams now and most likely less in the future) and KeSPA can't take any risks that would endanger the proleague - Cost-versus-benefit: there are obvious costs to maintaining the teams, why send players to a league with virtually no presence in Korea (not much gain) while GOMTV makes money from the international subscribers? Better keep them available for where they make money (OGN).
It's just a standard, business-as-usual decision. I don't see why this has to become a political power struggle debate.
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On August 24 2012 01:52 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:49 Wingblade wrote: The problem to me is that if they really wanted to protect the image of the players right now, they would have blocked GOM players from participating in OSL. People are acting like the Kespa players would get creamed in GSL, and rightfully so. But they are going to ruin their players reputations with OSL, because they WILL get smashed anyways. But now, they can only get smashed in their own league, where it profits them, and ONLY them. If they really wanted to protect their players "image", there would not be GOM players in OSL this season. But Kespa players have done quite well, in fact better, than GSL players in their common tournaments so far. This protecting their players thing seems to be a little shaky explanation. Moreover, as you pointed out, GSL players are playing in OSL. I think Kespa are highly confident in their own players (and for a reason).
In what world is that true? WCS is the only common tourney so far and the Kespa players all went straight to the losers bracket in the first round except 2 of them...... the final 4 in the winners bracket are all GSL players. The kespa players who have won in the lower bracket have done well yes, but GSL are way on top....
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Everyone needs to chill and remember that Blizz has everyone by the balls. I think GOM is in the best possible position out of anyone. Here's the worst scenario: KeSPA owned players continue to pull out of GSL, etc. Everyone gets kinda pissed and they continue to do so Blizzard blacklists OGN, KeSPA, and their training houses Non KeSPA players pull out of OGN's leagues (whatever their association is called) KeSPA, OGN, and players are pissed. I actually think that this was one of the reasons that Blizzard didn't want to put LAN into the game.
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On August 24 2012 02:11 OpticalShot wrote: I feel like fans in Korea and abroad (like here) are blowing this way out of proportions. You could easily make a list of reasons why KeSPA would want to impose such a rule:
- Schedule conflicts: KeSPA players have the PL and OSL to keep up with - Skill disparity: until PL is fully SC2, KeSPA may want its players to give more adaptation time. Recent WCS games make it look like some players are ready, but that's another length discussion for another time. - Proleague: let's face it, it's downhill right now (with 8 teams now and most likely less in the future) and KeSPA can't take any risks that would endanger the proleague - Cost-versus-benefit: there are obvious costs to maintaining the teams, why send players to a league with virtually no presence in Korea (not much gain) while GOMTV makes money from the international subscribers? Better keep them available for where they make money (OGN).
It's just a standard, business-as-usual decision. I don't see why this has to become a political power struggle debate.
Is skill disparity even a good argument since GSL players will be competing with Kespa players in the OSL anyways?
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On August 24 2012 02:09 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:55 Squeegy wrote:On August 24 2012 01:53 S:klogW wrote:On August 24 2012 01:49 Wingblade wrote: The problem to me is that if they really wanted to protect the image of the players right now, they would have blocked GOM players from participating in OSL. People are acting like the Kespa players would get creamed in GSL, and rightfully so. But they are going to ruin their players reputations with OSL, because they WILL get smashed anyways. But now, they can only get smashed in their own league, where it profits them, and ONLY them. If they really wanted to protect their players "image", there would not be GOM players in OSL this season. If the siruation is what you say it is, the Kespa is merely doing a sound business move. Anyway, I haven't seen any Kespa players play yet. Are they good? I mean GOM level good? Well, in WCS they have defeated multiple Code S level guys, including DRG, Puzzle, Gumiho, Leenock, Curious... and of course more. Most of the GSL vs Kespa in that tournament were won by Kespa. So, they definitely are competetive. It was actually about even between GOM v Kespa, but you have to remember that GOM did have some of their weaker players, whereas Kespa on had their stronger players. Not to mention winners round of 8 was 7 GOM and 1 Kespa. Of the top 10 it was 7 GOM, 3 Kespa. Most of the interviews put the Kespa players at the level of the Up & Downs. Also, from Creator and some other's interviews, the Kespa people have actually been playing for much longer than what they are saying. I doubt they will be facerolling everyone in another few months.
Edit: On second thoughts, maybe I don't want my name linked to this comment lol. Puts myself in a position to be flamed.
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On August 24 2012 02:11 Signus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 01:54 Seraphic wrote: I wish half of you would STOP theory crafting BS.
Honestly it's a bit irritating to read when you have no facts to back it up. Have all of you forgotten already when WCS first started, KeSPA players did horrendous? Or has that been completely lost since their run through the losers bracket? Some of the KeSPA players are definitely good enough for Code S. Throwing all of them at Code A seems a huge slap in the face with some of the players, even if they want to be there or not.
KeSPA will be in GSL eventually when they are ready. We seen only a handfull of players from KeSPA in the WCS, compared how much GSL players are there, the discrepancy is way too much.
I'd much rather see great games, then once again lopsided ones. Give them time for god sakes. That's the point though, some of the Kespa players are ready to go up against the top GSL players, but most of them are not. Having them play in a single Best of series is in their comfort zone and they are obviously going to do much better than expected in that format. However, there is almost nothing to indicate any Kespa player could make it through the minefield that is Code A Qualifiers. I wouldn't bet real money on Seed or Mvp to manage to make it into Code A through there, so why would the Kespa players put themselves up to be humiliated at the lowest level of GSL? This is why OSL qualifiers was divided between Kespa and GSL players, so they could guarantee having representation in their own tournament. If it had been an open qualifier requiring only a progaming license like OSL usually does, we would have maybe one or two Kespa players make it through and that doesn't bode well for OGN or Kespa on the business side of things. Things would be a lot different if GOM guaranteed a few Code S slots to Kespa players to qualify for, but that would be way too unfair to the players who are already in the tournament.
How is that the point? Those who are ready can enter, those who are not can stay home and practice (or enter anyway and learn from the experience). Why is that because some player are not ready, no one can enter?
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Not a big thing there will be no kespa guys. Why on earth would i need GSL with like 10-people-crowd, tons of matches deciding nothing (code A ro158, updown shit i dont care bout it), noname (my pov) korean commentators while OSL is out there?
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Don't see why this is such a big deal. KeSPA players are still playing BW and SC2. Now, if KeSPA players were only play SC2 and refused to play GSL it might be an issue. Also, doesn't the schedule of PL and OSL potentially run at the same time as GSL? There's scheduling issues there too.
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On August 24 2012 02:12 Shadow_Dog wrote: Everyone needs to chill and remember that Blizz has everyone by the balls. I think GOM is in the best possible position out of anyone. Here's the worst scenario: KeSPA owned players continue to pull out of GSL, etc. Everyone gets kinda pissed and they continue to do so Blizzard blacklists OGN, KeSPA, and their training houses Non KeSPA players pull out of OGN's leagues (whatever their association is called) KeSPA, OGN, and players are pissed. I actually think that this was one of the reasons that Blizzard didn't want to put LAN into the game.
Oh man and then every Kespa guys goes back to play Brood War! Oh noes!
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On August 24 2012 02:17 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 02:12 Shadow_Dog wrote: Everyone needs to chill and remember that Blizz has everyone by the balls. I think GOM is in the best possible position out of anyone. Here's the worst scenario: KeSPA owned players continue to pull out of GSL, etc. Everyone gets kinda pissed and they continue to do so Blizzard blacklists OGN, KeSPA, and their training houses Non KeSPA players pull out of OGN's leagues (whatever their association is called) KeSPA, OGN, and players are pissed. I actually think that this was one of the reasons that Blizzard didn't want to put LAN into the game.
Oh man and then every Kespa guys goes back to play Brood War! Oh noes! If not SC2 then more likely LoL... Honestly there's probably no going back to BW.
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Blizz wants control, and they know the KeSPA players bring the crowds. Blizzard is still just 1 company, if they do anything against KeSPA, they are basically running into the South Korean government + Samsung, and 3 of the biggest companies in South Korea.
I think Blizz needs to layoff and hear out why KeSPA pulled their players before they do anything. This is the problem I been finding with Blizzard recently, their ego is cashing out something they cannot control.
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What is Blizzard going to do if they do get involved? I really don't like the sound of Blizzard trying to put their grubby hands in the Korean scene.
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On August 24 2012 02:19 Seraphic wrote: Blizz wants control, and they know the KeSPA players bring the crowds. Blizzard is still just 1 company, if they do anything against KeSPA, they are basically running into the South Korean government + Samsung, and 3 of the biggest companies in South Korea.
I think Blizz needs to layoff and hear out why KeSPA pulled their players before they do anything. This is the problem I been finding with Blizzard recently, their ego is cashing out something they cannot control.
Blizzard made a statment that they would look into it, nothing else. Blizzard still have control of who gets broadcasting rights to SC2 (Blizzs IP), something that Samsung and other big companies can't do shit about.
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On August 24 2012 02:15 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 02:11 Signus wrote:On August 24 2012 01:54 Seraphic wrote: I wish half of you would STOP theory crafting BS.
Honestly it's a bit irritating to read when you have no facts to back it up. Have all of you forgotten already when WCS first started, KeSPA players did horrendous? Or has that been completely lost since their run through the losers bracket? Some of the KeSPA players are definitely good enough for Code S. Throwing all of them at Code A seems a huge slap in the face with some of the players, even if they want to be there or not.
KeSPA will be in GSL eventually when they are ready. We seen only a handfull of players from KeSPA in the WCS, compared how much GSL players are there, the discrepancy is way too much.
I'd much rather see great games, then once again lopsided ones. Give them time for god sakes. That's the point though, some of the Kespa players are ready to go up against the top GSL players, but most of them are not. Having them play in a single Best of series is in their comfort zone and they are obviously going to do much better than expected in that format. However, there is almost nothing to indicate any Kespa player could make it through the minefield that is Code A Qualifiers. I wouldn't bet real money on Seed or Mvp to manage to make it into Code A through there, so why would the Kespa players put themselves up to be humiliated at the lowest level of GSL? This is why OSL qualifiers was divided between Kespa and GSL players, so they could guarantee having representation in their own tournament. If it had been an open qualifier requiring only a progaming license like OSL usually does, we would have maybe one or two Kespa players make it through and that doesn't bode well for OGN or Kespa on the business side of things. Things would be a lot different if GOM guaranteed a few Code S slots to Kespa players to qualify for, but that would be way too unfair to the players who are already in the tournament. How is that the point? Those who are ready can enter, those who are not can stay home and practice (or enter anyway and learn from the experience). Why is that because some player are not ready, no one can enter?
Because if they are allowed to participate, most of the players will do so. That's what they do, play the game. Unfortunately, they are being barred from doing so since if someone of Jaedong or Flash's stature doesn't get into Code A, it will be very embarrassing. So to protect the marketability of their players, Kespa is keeping everyone out to ensure they don't look bad for not being able to get into the SC2 minor league.
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On August 24 2012 02:11 OpticalShot wrote: I feel like fans in Korea and abroad (like here) are blowing this way out of proportions. You could easily make a list of reasons why KeSPA would want to impose such a rule:
- Schedule conflicts: KeSPA players have the PL and OSL to keep up with - Skill disparity: until PL is fully SC2, KeSPA may want its players to give more adaptation time. Recent WCS games make it look like some players are ready, but that's another length discussion for another time. - Proleague: let's face it, it's downhill right now (with 8 teams now and most likely less in the future) and KeSPA can't take any risks that would endanger the proleague - Cost-versus-benefit: there are obvious costs to maintaining the teams, why send players to a league with virtually no presence in Korea (not much gain) while GOMTV makes money from the international subscribers? Better keep them available for where they make money (OGN).
It's just a standard, business-as-usual decision. I don't see why this has to become a political power struggle debate.
PL is almost over, 4 teams won't even be in the playoffs and of those that will, only two play the first week. Preliminaries start Sept. 5th, so at least those teams should be allowed. Scheduling itself isn't a problem at all unless because Code A is run on a Tuesday.
Have you forgotten why the switch to SC2 even happened? It was to globalize their brands, expand their audiences, and save itself from the eventually death that would have happened had they stayed with BW. Is the gas cost so expensive in Korea that it outweighs all the good achieved by exposing their players globally? In case you haven't noticed, it is very possibly after this season no KeSPA player will be in the next OSL. More exposure=more fans=more potential sources of revenue.
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i hoped kespa would die off....
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On August 24 2012 02:19 Seraphic wrote: Blizz wants control, and they know the KeSPA players bring the crowds. Blizzard is still just 1 company, if they do anything against KeSPA, they are basically running into the South Korean government + Samsung, and 3 of the biggest companies in South Korea.
I think Blizz needs to layoff and hear out why KeSPA pulled their players before they do anything. This is the problem I been finding with Blizzard recently, their ego is cashing out something they cannot control.
But blizzard does have full control over SC2, so if they say no broadcasting for kespa there is nothing any of those big companies or the SK government can do about it other than stamp their feet and cry, or play nice like they're supposed to.
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On August 24 2012 02:17 bokchoi wrote: Don't see why this is such a big deal. KeSPA players are still playing BW and SC2. Now, if KeSPA players were only play SC2 and refused to play GSL it might be an issue. Also, doesn't the schedule of PL and OSL potentially run at the same time as GSL? There's scheduling issues there too.
How is that any difference from next season? Or they are canceling PL and OSL after this season?
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On August 24 2012 01:45 Anta wrote: i wonder why the Kespa players are always so calm when Kespa makes thees decisions !?
do i miss it? are they just calm? or do they even appreciate the decisions made?
It's Korean nature, koreans are known to not cause a fuss over things, ESPECIALLY publicly I'm sure there are people who disagree with the decision (which they rightfully should).
I think OSL is going to learn quickly that they do not control the SC2 scene like they did the BW scene, SC2 is a world game, not just a game that's popular in Korea and barring your players from participating in leagues that cater to the world, is probably the worst idea you could ever do.
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