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Well, it is too soon to tell considering there is alpha and beta to go.
That said, from a Protoss perspective, I still dislike the Oracle and Tempest. I mean the whole idea of the Oracle is just plain cute and weird and just wrong from Protoss. A unit that darts in and entombs and then darts away. I can picture it being damaging and irritating, but damn it, this is not a Protoss unit. Not for the race that vapourised Char. I'd rather see the smouldering remains of scvs and the broken remnants of mules. As for the Tempest, it seems to throw pillows from the adjacent screen and is a hugely expensive and slow Stalker of the skies without even the redeeming feature of Blink.
Recall looks cool, but does seem a little OP although it is at least energy intensive. That said, I think it may lead to sloppy Protoss play, and take away some of the planning and precision required from successful high level Protoss play in WoL.
To be fair to Blizzard, as I said at the start, there is a lot of gameplay left to go.
However, the way it looks now, I'm glad that I won't be playing HOTS (or any SC2) next year.
I hope they make it work though.
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So, terran gets a couple of a-move mech units and weird spider mines. Real exciting there Blizzard.
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I KNEW I was going to hate the warhound. The only micro possible with that unit is target-firing on mechanical units -.- Mech Marauder
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Did anyone else giggle a little inside whenever a hydra flew?
Lol, I look forward to more hilarity; can-not wait!! 
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So tired of Blizzard cattering to non competitive players who want easy mode on everything. Really takes away the competitive feeling with even more boring 1a units coming our way. So we turtle for 15 mins on average then you get all happy about finally getting to the combat part then you realize you just got to put everything on 1 hotkey and send towards your opponents unit. That sure was fun. One thing is making auto mines and max unit hotkeys, another is their failure at actually making exciting units that actually need someone to be paying attention to them and not just sent to their opponents base. Before i start getting hits from people who think they are good at this game and want to make themselves believe that its all skill, and that their is no success by just 1a'ing to opponents with certain units, save it.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 14 2012 17:46 Chaosvuistje wrote:
I KNEW I was going to hate the warhound. The only micro possible with that unit is target-firing on mechanical units -.- Mech Marauder
The auto-attack already targets mechanical units only.
So yeah, they need to make that unit more interesting.
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I thought Blizzard were trying to break up the deathball syndrome in this game.
The Protoss units reflect those changes, but the Terrans new unit seem to add to it. If fact so much so that in combination with a few ghosts i actually cant see a Protoss army withstanding it do to the specialised dps of the Battle Hellion ( Zealot slaughter) and the new Warhound with its pure anti robotic dps. These 2 units alone hard counter the protoss army so hard
Tough times for Protoss by the looks of it, if they allow Terran to get those factories up and running
Edit:
The Oracle looks good but how much gas is it. Protoss is already gas starved and i cant see these being built if they are fragile
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On August 14 2012 17:48 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 17:46 Chaosvuistje wrote:
I KNEW I was going to hate the warhound. The only micro possible with that unit is target-firing on mechanical units -.- Mech Marauder The auto-attack already targets mechanical units only. So yeah, they need to make that unit more interesting.
They need to make pretty much everything more interesting. Seriously wtf did they even think when they came up with the tempest?
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On August 14 2012 14:33 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 14:03 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2012 13:58 BoZiffer wrote:On August 14 2012 11:46 FinestHour wrote:On August 14 2012 11:44 Aratan wrote:On August 14 2012 11:42 Silentness wrote:
Am I the only one that feels like were being trolled by the new "destructible rocks". They literally blow up into MORE got damn rocks. I know someone joked about Blizzard making destructible rocks under more rocks, but they are seriously thinking it's a good idea. Hopefully they change their minds and remove it during the actual game release. Hah i was thinking the same thing. Destroy 500 life rocks, new 2000 life rocks spawn I HEARD YOU LIKE ROCKS SO WE PUT ROCKS IN YOUR ROCKS SO YOU CA- Post of the year. I thought it was kind of funny that the Terran was trying to stutter-step micro his mech and it wasn't even close to possible... like he was fighting old habits or something. I didn't really see much to be super-excited about in that video. The only thing that really excites me about HOTS is that it will reset the pros and the Kespa pro's will be on near even footing with GOM guys... so thats the bright side. Outside o' that... I'll just wait till its really released. Mech vs Protoss wasn't ever micro intensive really in BW either outside of Vultures and yet the match up was still pretty damn exciting. That's because of...Vultures! Honestly they could get rid of Warhounds and widow mines and just bring back Vultures/spiders and mech play would look and feel 100x more exciting.
And zealot bombs, storms, arbiters, carriers,...
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First, second, and third most prominent emotional reaction: Oh god, please don't do this to us..
After my initial shock at seeing such a projected state of tvp I have come to realize it won't be so bad, and some things are kinda cool now that I think about them again.
The temptest is kinda cool actually, but it needs to be with the carrier to really seal the deal. I imagine a protoss army with: temptest, carrier, pheonix, warp prism, zealot and I get really happy inside. Its so epic to have a mainly sky army composition like that.
Final emotional reaction: bring it on P and Z in HoTs. I love destroying alien scum in my TvP and TvZ in WoL...I still desire to in the next and after that expansions ;D
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Just watching the video and two things already seem to be bad: 1 Oracle stops the complete terran-mining for more than 10 seconds, needs balance i guess ^^
The rocks: the majority of palyers dont like them, and what is blizzard doing? creating even more rocks/blocks
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What i didn't like:
I didn't like the new match up, but what really disgusted me as the map, i really hope it isn't a beta version of a future ladder match: extremely wide chokes at the natural AND third, double entries to the natural, collapsible rockscreating more collapsible rocks, and a really weird looking path behind the third.
The mothership core looks aesthetically awful
Not convinced by oracle "harass", it comes pretty late (10 minutes i the game, i guess you could have them at 8:30) and doesn't last a lot, even against workers, marines could clear the fields in 3/4 seconds.
A mine that can attacks air... i dont think so, Tim.
I really don't like the Tempest, it seems to be extremely frustrating for you as an opponent, and for the protoss, i think it is no fun, you can't micro at all, it's like a static unit with 23 range.
Some questions:
I wonder how the collapsible rock tower works, the landslide pushes the units away, like a forcefield does? Does the landslide kill the units under it?
The warhound doesn't have an air attack!? I thought it was supposed to be a mini-thor
Widow mines don"t have a movement animation? Is it always an automatic hit? Mines from the BW vulture were way more interesting as you could shoot them before they hit your unit. That's way more impressive that selecting one unit (the one with the widow mine attached) and sending it away
I wonder if such an early recall is not going to end up unbalanced
What i like about the new PvT:
If you look closely, there's still some starcraft in the game
Battle hellions are disgusting, it's going to be fun abusing them
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i like the widowmine and the battlehellion, but the warhound is horrible, be it looks or unit design, an ugly unit with an ability that does nothing vs zerg and peforms best amoved? meh.
protoss gets some interesting stuff, though purifier is too strong i feel, how can a terran attack that the first 8-12 minutes?
also oracle could be a bit more difficult to use (entomb that is), but i overall like it, and the tempest idk, 22 range is strong, but the unit itself is not really menacing, had he made carriers or colossi instead his army would have been much much stronger.
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On August 14 2012 17:53 legaton wrote:
What i didn't like:
I didn't like the new match up, but what really disgusted me as the map, i really hope it isn't a beta version of a future ladder match: extremely wide chokes at the natural AND third, double entries to the natural, collapsible rockscreating more collapsible rocks, and a really weird looking path behind the third.
The mothership core looks aesthetically awful
Not convinced by oracle "harass", it comes pretty late (10 minutes i the game, i guess you could have them at 8:30) and doesn't last a lot, even against workers, marines could clear the fields in 3/4 seconds.
A mine that can attacks air... i dont think so, Tim.
I really don't like the Tempest, it seems to be extremely frustrating for you as an opponent, and for the protoss, i think i is no fun, you can't micro at all, it's like a static unit with 23 range.
Some questions:
I wonder how the collapsible rock tower works, he landslide pushes the units away, like a forcefield does? Does the landslide kill the units under it?
The warhound doesn't have an air attack!? I thought it was supposed to be a mini-thor
Widow mines don"t have a movement animation? Is it always an automatic hit? Mines from the BW vulture were way more interesting as you could shoot them before they hit your unit. That's way more impressive that selecting one unit (the one with the widow mine attached) and sending it away
I wonder if such an early recall is not going to end up unbalanced
What i like about the new PvT:
If you look closely, there's still some starcraft in the game
Battle hellions are disgusting, it's going to be fun abusing them
Couldn't find it LOL. Luckily I'm playing bw anyways. Fuck sc2. I'll wait for sc3.
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i think BW wouldnt have been so successfull if it didnt have such amazingly well designed units with such great depth in gameplay that all of its qualities when combined ended up creating
I believe you can design new units with a starcraft feel, that fit well in the starcraft gameplay concept essence, while still being cool and unique, but hots is not a good example of it.
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Early game recalls? get rid of it. bad design. starcraft is about risks in army movement. lategame with nydus/drops/sensor towers in mind, its okay on the mothership.
protoss harassment unit that shields the minerals? just pure stupidity. get rid of the oracle all its spells are so stupid
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the viper? all of its spells are so dumb. get rid of it. doesnt fit well in the starcraft entertainment persona. I understand zergs had darkswarm in BW but that was moreso of a needed design crutch because zerg was designed to be weaker than lategame terran without it. right now zerg doesnt need darkswarm because their units are stronger, and so that design crutch doesnt really need to exist. zergs dont need swarm, but they have almost a stronger plague in the form of fungal (fungals much easier to get than plague, and 2casts kills 30 marines in 7 seconds? yup. its amazing how overbalanced fungal is in strength, but zergs need it in the current meta to compete). my main concern is with the vipers abduct spell. its just stupid all around, i actually think its a little too weak and stupid of a concept. just doesnt fit well in the starcraft essence.
ultra burrow charge? wont make it past beta however this is just one of the random cool concepts they were thinking of that they probably just decided to throw in last minute like baneling burrow movement.
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nexus into a 13range planetary? get rid of it. bad design. toss already has cannons from the forge zerg has spores/spines from the evo chamber, terran has planetarys/turrets from the engi bay.
protoss does not need this. its just bad design all around. they already have cannons. i actually consider bunkers to be more of a unit, considering it needs units to operate, i consider bunkers to be an extension of barracks tech because plain marines lose to zealots/stalkers/sentry/speedlings, but can win and defend the terrans natural with the help of bunkers, but the terran cant be offensive with those marines easily because bunkers cannot move. marines needed to be made weaker than vanilla stalkers/speedlings because if they werent terran could rush and win every game. so bunkers allowed marines to be balanced as weaker units early game and bunkers made it so as long as the marines are in the terrans base, they are strong, but when the marines leave the bunkers they become weak. then lategame marines have upgrades/support and no longer need the bunkers.
in starcraft 1 bunkers didnt have such elegant design theory in their concept, blizzard just made bunkers because it seemed like a cool idea. however in WoL bunkers serve the above design element. they make it so marines are strong at home but weak when attacking the enemy. marines needed to be balanced as weaker than toss/zerg tier1 units early game for balances sake
as far as the nexus planetary, its bad design because toss already has cannons. Terran has planetarys which CAN be massed around the map to serve as terran cannons. 1 cannon never did anything when used to control space, normally a toss makes 4 cannons in an area to control space. well guess what, 4cannons+pylon is 150 more minerals than a planetary and the planetary is STRONGER. i think in the future terrans will start to realize they do have their own form of "zero supply static defense" to use around the map lategame the way tosses put cannons everywhere lategame, and thats planetarys. planetarys/turrets are the terrans cannons, and both come from engi bay/forge respectively and cost no supply
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warhounds? just stupid. tanks/hellions control ground, thors are a big power unit that punches the hell out of ground and can splash air. mech in broodwar was very strong against air with goliaths. i like the new approach in sc2 where mech is weaker against air (since its only air shooting unit is thors which arent too great at anti air) but being weak against air seems like what mech should be. mech has small anti air options in thors, and then tanks/hellions are all about controlling the ground. the warhound is pretty un-needed when you got tanks and hellions to balance against ground
the warhounds stats are actually almost the same as thors. hilariously, blizzard almost designed the warhound as nothing more than a thor with no energy bar. Thors if they had no energy bar (and no strike cannons) would be great units in tvp mech because they pack a huge punch and have 400 health. Thors only suck in tvp because feedback deals 200damage to them for 50 energy.
warhounds really are funny when you realize blizzard could have simply just removed thors energy bar (and strike cannons) and the thor would be exactly like the warhound except it shoots air and walks slower. wait warhound are probably stronger than thors because warhounds have these overbalanced missiles which are clearly overbalanced in the alpha version and would need to be heavily nerfed to make it out of beta. warhounds cannot be balanced to have missiles that counter all toss units not named the zealot, it will never make it out of beta at this rate
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widow mines are stupid. i felt mines in BW were sort of a crutch that needed to be balanced to exist to fix out some other overall bgalance problens, but SC2 does not need them
tempest is stupid. not even gonna bother explaining why.
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zergs swarm host, and battle hellions are two example of units that i feel are highly well balanced and fit in the starcraft esports universe. Protoss, zerg, and terran could stand to each GAIN two units that are balanced and fun in concept as these units, and carriers shouldnt be removed.
What can blizzard design and add? Well i understand designing units is hard and your tempted to make cool weird things. But sometimes bland things like battle hellions can be what is needed.
Heres some units that blizzard could possibly take design ideas from for new hots units
1) scout from brood war. imagine if protoss got a unit that was like the scout but rebalanced. i think a cool name might be "strider" or something (from lord of the rings lol). pretty much a unit exactly like the scout BUT its balanced to have a combat purpose. maybe a strong anti-air missiles, fairly weak ground attack, and lots of health and 4food. So it would be balanced to counter broodlords (what tosses are having trouble with) but it would be weak to hydras/queens but be 4food so its very resilient against fungals
2) spellbreaker from warcraft 3. the unit seemed to be a pretty well designed concept wise unit. how about a terran bio unit wearing a powerful new ghostlike--telekineses--suit that makes him immune to aoe spells (fungal, storm) but maybe with weaker combat stats but a strong armored tanking telekineses suit, to serve as a melee (or 2range) biounit that tanks against storms/fungals while marauders/reapers shoot from the back?
3) mountain giants form warcraft 3. this was a cool designed unit imo. I dont believe taunts should exist in SC2, but maybe some kind of massive collossal unit could be introduced that costs 12supply and move really slow. but which race would get it? but it would need strong weaknesses and possibly a strong strength as well.
im thinking something like this seems more zerg appropriate. maybe let zerg have it to serve as a ultra lategame fearsome creature. make only 1 allowed like the mothership. give it 0.7 movement speed and strong melee combat stats but it can be kited a whole lot, and when the zerg puts one into a nydus it can do tons of damage. Heck maybe possibly make it constructed from a nydus instead of larva, like you build it from the nydus network and then you unload it from a worm. this kind of seems like the "offensive nydus" blizzard was talking about but im thinking of making this an actual unit.
heres an idea i just ballparked in my head just showing some light brainstorming
make it cost 12supply
make it large and fearsome
make it move super slow (maybe 0.5 speed)
make it have like 3range, but strong stats
make it require hive, and its built INSIDE a nydus network and takes 120 seconds to build (as much as a carrier)
after its constructed, the nydus network may release this beast and it walks around the map like any other unit (but very slowly). this unit cannot be put inside overlords, but it can move across the map with nydus's. It mostly just demolishes buildings but moves slow and can be kited.
you can only build 1, it required hive+nydus network
Im thinking for combat stats, how about 4x the health of ultralisk, 4x the DPS of an ultralisk (no splash. would be overpowered), 1base armor, 12food, 3range, 0.4 movement speed, and 900/600 unit cost. So for 900/600 cost (the price of 3 ultras) your getting a unit as STRONG as 4ultras, but only costs as much food as 2ultras, but moves EXTREMELY SLOW (0.4 speed)
i think this is a cool designed unit. its certainly not too fearsome for terran/toss because they can KITE it all day with stimmed bio and it only has 4 max armor
alright there. i just brainstormed 3 unit ideas that in my opinion have more depth and interesting design elements than everything in the HOTS alpha
i seriously believe if HOTS units arent more in line with how sc2 units should "feel" like, chances are hots will fail horribly and most tournaments wont switch over to it.
hots is not garunteed to take over WoL's spotlight. if HOTS doesnt "feel" as amazing as wol feels to viewers, many viewers might prefer watching WoL tournaments.
thankfully, blizzard has 1year to fix things
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I would just like to say that I'm baffled with Blizzard's lack of creativity. We've been looking at almost the same ideas since Hots started being promoted. I know that the replicator was removed and the Shredder morphed to Widow Mine, but in the vast majority, all these units are very close to their original concepts.
What happened to creativity? Why isn't the design team putting out more units? I'm pretty sure that the game would only improve if there was a larger pool of ideas to start the beta.
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On August 14 2012 17:03 Garmer wrote:
instead of those stupid new rocks, they should put high cliff advantage
Or you could go play Brood War.
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Maybe I'm too easily amused, but it didn't look to me to be as irredeemably terrible as this thread is seeming to suggest. Things like the range and damage and energy cost of the Mothership Core's abilities, likewise with the Tempest and the Warhound and Widow Mine, can and almost certainly will be changed in the beta. I do have to say that I think they're just hurting themselves by not putting out a play-testable beta to get a broader and higher-level set of data. The game looked reasonably interesting for being played by what look like Gold or so level players.
That's not to say I don't think there are problems; the Warhound is almost certainly overpowered beyond belief. It doesn't even pass the sniff test; when you see the player spamming Warhounds and only getting a smattering of Siege Tanks and Hellions, you know the unit is too good. Moreover, that was the source of his macro problems, he was so low on gas and high on minerals because he wasn't using the mech mineral dump. Moreover, the Warhound's visual is pretty awful, as was the Battle Hellion's. The Battle Hellion probably just needs better animations, but the Warhound definitely needs to go back into the shop for a total overhaul.
My personal opinion is that the Warhound would have been better as what it was originally proposed as; an antiair specialist with a mediocre ground attack, so that if you overmake them like that you're pretty boned when it comes to an actual ground fight. Haywire Missile is just dumb. A while back someone proposed a different, more interesting (active) ability instead, I think it was something along the lines of being able to temporarily generate line of sight blockers - smokescreens. If the Warhound's job is to cover the Siege Tanks which are supposed to be the big guns, then strong antiair and LoS shenanigans would work a lot better in that case. I realize Thors might get the boot in this case, but eh.
Anyway, the pace of balance changes is considerably faster in an actual beta, so I really wish they'd stop frittering away their time and release it. I don't think things are as broken beyond repair as some others do, however. Normal beta-level changes seem capable of reining in the most egregious offenders, and the Warhound is the only thing where I just think it ought to be scrapped and wholly repurposed.
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On August 14 2012 17:52 Willes wrote:
Just watching the video and two things already seem to be bad: 1 Oracle stops the complete terran-mining for more than 10 seconds, needs balance i guess ^^
The rocks: the majority of palyers dont like them, and what is blizzard doing? creating even more rocks/blocks
You delay the terrans mining for about 200 minerals if two bases are entombed and the terran reacts fast enough, while the protoss has invested its gas into a unit that cannot fight and only really force out a scan on a lucky day. And that's without the terran going for MMM, in which case the protoss has a bigger problem because the entomb will likely not even live long enough to deny those mineral minings for 5 seconds.
Entomb to me seems like a worse Contaminate. It would make more sense to swap the abilities around with Zerg because Protoss could delay stim pushes or tanks from getting produced. But eh, haven't seen enough of the unit to write it off yet.
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Italy12248 Posts
Well that doesn't look very promising 
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EPT
