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Heart of the Swarm TvP Battle Report! - Page 45

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AssyrianKing
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia2111 Posts
August 14 2012 08:05 GMT
#881
That was a little dissapointing, Warhounds are just another Marauder, though I did like the interesting battle between the Vikings/Widow Mines against Tempests
John 15:13
Spidinko
Profile Joined May 2010
Slovakia1174 Posts
August 14 2012 08:06 GMT
#882
Carriers could be pretty good against mech actually. Leave them in, please! I don't care very much about the tempest.
eclipse4343
Profile Joined July 2010
United States11 Posts
August 14 2012 08:09 GMT
#883
On August 14 2012 17:05 PiPoGevy wrote:
That was a little dissapointing, Warhounds are just another Marauder, though I did like the interesting battle between the Vikings/Widow Mines against Tempests

Howd you find the window mine interestng? they are so few and D kim ran into 2-3 in a row. Any competent player wouldnt have done that esp with terran still not getting a raven to kill the obs and the quick obs production timing. The tempest viking battle was dumb bc they are basically fighting bcs with the range to hit them. They still get hard countered by vikings and itd take little to no micro on either side. The kiting mechanic isnt really kiting when you have to wait 10 seconds to charge.
maartendq
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Belgium3115 Posts
August 14 2012 08:09 GMT
#884
Is blizzard really blind or can't they see that a unit like the Oracle is broken by mere design?
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-14 08:12:17
August 14 2012 08:10 GMT
#885
+1 for broken entomb. I like how the toss player gave the chance to terran by not building the oracle after he lost the first one :D

Not to mention he didn't cast entomb after spider mine attached to it.

I don't have a problem with toss getting an air harass unit, but this is not fun for the other side (even in PvP it is not going to be fun). I will not play MP if Entomb stays as it is. I don't have a problem with any other unit or ability shown so far.

It would be better if Oracle instead of entomb gets some static cannon ability similar to tanks (long range and maybe splash) but he cannot move from his position in air. It would cost mana and last a certain period. You would need to combine it with observers or that other ability that gives you info about what are others doing to see beyond his sight range.
It could either have splash and 2 shot workers or no splash and one shot workers (lets give it +vs light units so it is not op vs buildings and everything, maybe something like 20+30 vs light or 10+20 if it is splash). This way it can still harass and you enemy can react to it or ignore it and lose a lot of workers or whatever. Since it will cost mana it cannot be spammed and force everyone to build air units to defend against it but then you would need to pull workers until it is done.

And later oracle transforms into Tempest which has a similar ability
xSTaRFiSHx
Profile Joined February 2012
Germany176 Posts
August 14 2012 08:10 GMT
#886
That Battlehellion/Warhound combination is beyond disgusting... >.<
I wonder if there will be cake...
TheRealPaciFist
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1049 Posts
August 14 2012 08:11 GMT
#887
On August 14 2012 15:46 YyapSsap wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2012 14:59 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On August 14 2012 14:48 forsooth wrote:
On August 14 2012 14:15 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On August 14 2012 14:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
On August 14 2012 13:57 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
In regards to the new units, I think the warhound is unecessary. It is too easy to use, and is also trying to fill a role already being filled. The new hellion alone makes mech viable, and tanks already WRECK (all caps bolded for emphasis) most mechanical units by the virtue that they are usually armored.
I think Blizzard should probably add a micro-intensive skill unit to the mech composition in place of the warhound, akin to the viper, or the infestor. Of course, this unit shouldn't be good enough (or have abilities designed in such a way as) to completely remove positioning from the equation, as positioning is one of the core aspects of mech. It should give mech a higher skill cap and make it more fun for spectators (and many players).
As it stands, it seems that mech TvP is going to be one of the easier matchups, which is not so good since many of the other matchups are getting their skill-cap increased.


Well one of the main purposes of the Warhound is actually for it to be an Anti-Siege Tank unit, capable of rushing tank lines easier than bio can because it's beefier.

As for its role in the TvP match up, Mech doesn't have a unit quite like it, it's more similar to a Marauder than it is anything else, but it can't be healed by Medivacs and doesn't have stim which already makes it much different.

I think after playing in the alpha that Warhounds might be a little too strong right now especially considering their cost, but the unit design itself is something that will fit rather nicely into the mech playstyle once its been tuned a bit.

The Haywire missle in particular I think is too strong, it either needs a longer cooldown or reduced damage.


True, I forgot about the siege-line breaking role. That should be interesting, comparing its bust capabilities versus that of bio.
Still not sure about the TvP thing, though. I mean, mech has three parts, right? The tanks, which kick ass and take names. The buffer for the tanks, which make it so that the tanks can keep kicking ass and taking more names. Then, the AA, because tanks can't shoot up.
Where does the warhound fit into that equation? Without the warhound, mech TvP is going to be a game of buffers, air battles and positioning, where catching the mech player unsieged is important, as well as having your buffer outlast his, because the fragile, expensive units behind the buffer die easily on both sides. In addition, the air battle will be keeping the match dynamic and increasing the skillcap somewhat. Vikings versus tempests will play a crucial role in maintaining leads in positioning and army.
Nice and pat, with a nice level of skill.
Now, what happens if we throw in the warhound? The warhound's ability bypasses the buffer completely, which I guess makes it useful, but it does weird things with how mech TvP is going to be played. It's also a 1a unit, even more so than a valuable, long range unit like, say, the colossus, because it's a cheap unit with no significant range or speed advantage, thus making it a dispensable front-line fighter. The warhound will likely be a part of the buffer, probably just behind the hellions, but it changes the way the buffer works.
I don't know man, I just don't like it. Maybe it's the fact that it's a low skill unit in its current form. Maybe I just don't like how it sort of doesn't feel "pat", overlapping roles with some things and fundamentally different in other ways. Either way, I'm pretty uncertain about this unit, and still feel a micro-intensive, skill-based unit would add more to TvP mech than this thing.

The problem is, tanks don't kick ass and take names in SC2 TvP. If they did, you'd see the more often.


That's what they're changing in HotS, though, and that's what I'm discussing.
If your issue is not the overall viability of mech, but rather the power of tanks specifically, well, those fuckers are beast in TvP when you aren't firing at pure immortals or zealots. I already mentioned zealots in my little "buffer battle" part, and mass immortals shouldn't be too much of an issue, because mass immortal sucks.
Seriously, if you don't believe in the tank, go to a unit tester map and ram a bunch of stalkers and colossi into a wad of tanks. The carnage will surprise you. Now, imagine if those tanks had a strong buffer, which is what they're going to have in HotS.


Its not about mass zealots or immortals. Simply put, tanks just suck vs anything protoss other than sentries or stalkers. Why? They dont kill shit fast enough and theres not enough of them either due to the 3 supply cap they have. That is the issue.

In BW, the only thing that buffered tanks were 75HP vultures and mini nukes that could literally backfire and take chunks out of your forces. The reason this wall was good enough was because the fire power was there to vaporise everything on the ground.

The thing about mech is that it would be very immobile, requires positioning and setup time but the firepower should be almost twice as much as bio. Everything should get blown from the ground to compensate for being so slow and cumbersome.

Bio on the other hand is very mobile, cheaply produced and have somewhat firepower that gets limited as P reaches the ultimate deathball composition.

However from the look of things, that is simply not there. I love it when they reason warhound to be anti-mech, when theres this unit called the marauder which pretty much counters all "mech" i mean armoured units. People have figured out so many different ways of breaking through siege lines, its not the issue at hand. For wood leaguers, well its something they will learn as they progress in getting better.

Lets once again look at the Bio composition just to point out what mech requires.

The standard MMM consists of marines, the marauder and medivacs.
-Marines role = General purpose unit of the composition.
-Marauder role = Damage to armoured unit specialists/provide tanking for the marines
-Medivacs role = Provide support via healing and mobility.

Anyone can see that these units are very well sync'd with one another. The synergy is really good, and they rely on one another as the game progresses. The ratio of marine to marauder can be adjusted to deal the type of damage you want so its very flexible. Although I hate the marauder as it doesn't jibe with the whole "bio" thing due to having so much hp and dealing a ton of damage, Blizz has done a good job of coming up with this composition.

Now with Mech in HOTS
-Battle Hellions role = Provide damage to light AOE, buffering for tanks and "mobility" (a unit that can reposition quickly, buying time for its damage dealers to get ready).
-Warhound = Provide damage to mechanical, buffering for tanks and very mobile.
-Tanks role = Provide somewhat damage to armoured (AOE), doesn't require to be sieged because in tank mode they can just pound away at the enemy without sacrificing mobility.
-Thors role = Provide damage to armoured (Single) while being a somewhat AA ground against light air units. Also provide additional buffering.
-Widow Mine role = Provide another option for AA, buffer for the tanks and also provides further pro

You can see unlike MMM, theres just so many things that overlap with this composition while also favouring a combo of units. Abilities like siege mode becomes useless due to the warhounds effectiveness. Whats the point of all that buffering and protecting the tanks when you dont really need them anymore? because you've effectively created a Terran version of the deathball. Widow mines also dont make sense because they require setup time and this deathball doesn't require a setup time.

As many have already noticed in the mech composition, there is NO general purpose unit in this composition like the marine. In BW, this role was filled by the tanks. Instead of dealing damage in rapid bursts like the marine, the tanks simply do a ton slowly counterbalanced by requiring it to setup in siege mode. This is what defined mech and made mech possible in BW because the composition revolved around tanks.

What Blizzard has to do is give tanks this role back. The maps have in a way, long past steppes and lost temple that tanks should be able to regain back there 50 or 60 damage per shot (while reducing the supply to 2 - dont take this balance suggestion to literally but something needs to be done to give tanks back their role). This also makes all those units that counter tanks, make sense in the first place while making them more valuable. HOTS provides more options anyway (viper hook to tempest's insane range).

If we go back to the composition with that in mind (minus thor and warhound):
-Battle Hellions role = Provide damage to light AOE, buffering for tanks and "mobility" (a unit that can reposition quickly, buying time for its damage dealers to get ready).
-Tanks role = General purpose unit of the composition.
-?? unit X role = Need a unit that provides a general purpose AA capability instead of relying on vikings and/or buffering for tanks and/or deal specific damage to a unit type (Something that does AA + and one of the two required roles).

If the thor is added back, then they should maybe think about reworking the thor to reduce some of its overlapping roles.

This would truly make T more exciting to play because Bio, Mech and Sky Terran will all provide different playstyles that has its pros and cons. (Dont forget that you can mix and match to a more general composition instead of relying on certain tech paths). They really need to go back to the drawing board on this one because they are ignoring the root cause of the issue with mech.

/rant


The idea of buffing siege tanks is very interesting... but I doubt they want to throw the balance of siege tank/marine versus zergling/banelng out of whack.

They should, however, definitely change the Thor. It's the only unit that doesn't have specific necessary roles in WoL, so it'd be the easiest for them to adapt to new roles in HotS, like improved AA for mech... maybe buff their air attack range
Second favorite strategy game of all time: Starcraft. First: Go (aka Wei Qi, Paduk, or Igo)
Nausea
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden807 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-14 08:17:24
August 14 2012 08:11 GMT
#888
Alright, welcome to today´s unit briefing here at Blizzard HQ.
We will try to brainstorm some ideas in order to get going on some concepts of a new protoss unit today.

So, any ideas?
me, me, me, me!

Yes, Alex?
How about this concept i made yesterday of a huge protoss flyer, it will replace the carrier!

Hmm, not bad, not bad at all! What does it do?
Umm... It shoots?

Ahh good, good, ok go back to work on the destructible rock towers.
This plan is so perfect it´s retarded (c) Peter Griffin
Set it ablaze!
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16065 Posts
August 14 2012 08:16 GMT
#889
On August 14 2012 16:02 Acritter wrote:
There are no changes to bio.

None. Zip. Nada. Nothing new that Protoss gets can shut it down, and there are no nerfs to Terran.

Unless mech proves to be WAY stronger (in which case TvP will likely turn out to be majorly imbalanced), bio will continue to be the go-to for this matchup. In other words? The MU will look no different than if we hadn't had HotS at all.

Great news, eh guys?


Someone wasn't paying attention to the Mothership Core.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
TheRealPaciFist
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1049 Posts
August 14 2012 08:20 GMT
#890
On August 14 2012 15:21 Reborn8u wrote:
Something just occurred to me, speed prisms are going to be completely ridiculous combined with recall. In late game, with 12 gates I could drop 2 immortals warp in 12 stalkers snipe a bunch of shit and leave, with no risk. Even if they are about to kill my prism on the way in, I can just recall it. Or imagine 12 DT's in your main murdering everything, then I just recall and bam 6 archons for defense or just to add to my army. Storm drops anyone?

It doesn't even have to be late game, you can probably do this kind of crap on 1 base with how fast you get recall. Think of those times when you get into a zerg or terrans main with a small army and FF them out. As soon as you run out of FF, your army is at home, safe. You wont be able to save your buildings OR counter attack against this.

With mechs main weakness being mobility, it's like protoss itself will be the counter to mech. Good luck denying a protoss 3rd base with the mothership core out as well. It will be super easy for toss to force a late game.

I play protoss and I know this will have Zergs and terrans rolling there eyes and shuttering. I doubt this stuff will make it into release. It's going to be impossible to balance.


As a low league Terran, I've always felt it's so much easier to defend against harass with Protoss than with Terran because P has warp in's where as T has to either wait for the next round of units or send his nearest units (and Zerg are in the middle just 'cause they have speedlings).

Now with Mass Recall, assuming there's energy to spare, Protoss become not only the best at defending harass, but also by far the best at doing harass. I think Terrans would have to counter by making a ton of roaming vikings every game

BUT if they made Mass Recall late game tech I think it'd be fine. Regardless, I can't wait to see what comes from it
Second favorite strategy game of all time: Starcraft. First: Go (aka Wei Qi, Paduk, or Igo)
MaV_gGSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1345 Posts
August 14 2012 08:21 GMT
#891
I'm too excited hha
Life's good :D
wcr.4fun
Profile Joined April 2012
Belgium686 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-14 08:30:15
August 14 2012 08:24 GMT
#892
Excuse my harsh language:

I waited like a month for this shit? That was absolutely terrible. It's like the worst case scenario came true. War hounds look even more terrible in the game. This 'meching' player was just jumping from one side of the map to the other, even chasing units and everything. One of his big attacks was unsieging everything, running up a ramp and not even caring about positioning. Jezus christ the fuck was that!!??? That warhound is like people have said, just a freakin' marauder with another model and some other imba missles than concussive shells that you don't have to control. Entomb LOOOOOOOL. One click of a button, no skill required at all and your entire mineral line is fucked. And talk about the most boring shit ever. How is watching an oracle entombing minerals an exciting harrassing scenario? Tempest? Jezus christ I was going to fall asleep. Not to mention this terran couldn't even make some freaking turrets to counter observers? Did they dump the oracle spell which granted vision on a certain building (can it be removed?)? If not, why didn't the protoss use that spell.

This was such a huge disappointment. This is not mech. The war hound looks terrible. Can't judge the widow mine too much because the terran just forgot about it. But it doesn't require any skill any way, like everything in this game besides marine splitting. The mother ship core looks interesting but 13 range 60 damage cannon, I had to check my ears if I was hearing correctly LOL! You can get that shit before cybernetics core? Protoss will just expand every game and there's not shit you can do about it. I think the most exciting thing of that entire game were the rocks collapsing.

Now terran finally has their boring a-move units which requires zero skill. If I were a terran player, I'd be so goddamn excited to the unlimited possibilities these new units bring!!
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16065 Posts
August 14 2012 08:26 GMT
#893
On August 14 2012 17:20 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2012 15:21 Reborn8u wrote:
Something just occurred to me, speed prisms are going to be completely ridiculous combined with recall. In late game, with 12 gates I could drop 2 immortals warp in 12 stalkers snipe a bunch of shit and leave, with no risk. Even if they are about to kill my prism on the way in, I can just recall it. Or imagine 12 DT's in your main murdering everything, then I just recall and bam 6 archons for defense or just to add to my army. Storm drops anyone?

It doesn't even have to be late game, you can probably do this kind of crap on 1 base with how fast you get recall. Think of those times when you get into a zerg or terrans main with a small army and FF them out. As soon as you run out of FF, your army is at home, safe. You wont be able to save your buildings OR counter attack against this.

With mechs main weakness being mobility, it's like protoss itself will be the counter to mech. Good luck denying a protoss 3rd base with the mothership core out as well. It will be super easy for toss to force a late game.

I play protoss and I know this will have Zergs and terrans rolling there eyes and shuttering. I doubt this stuff will make it into release. It's going to be impossible to balance.


As a low league Terran, I've always felt it's so much easier to defend against harass with Protoss than with Terran because P has warp in's where as T has to either wait for the next round of units or send his nearest units (and Zerg are in the middle just 'cause they have speedlings).

Now with Mass Recall, assuming there's energy to spare, Protoss become not only the best at defending harass, but also by far the best at doing harass. I think Terrans would have to counter by making a ton of roaming vikings every game

BUT if they made Mass Recall late game tech I think it'd be fine. Regardless, I can't wait to see what comes from it


Terrans have sensor towers, which are GROSSLY underutilized in both TvP and TvZ. All the Oracle is going to do is force more Sensor Towers out of Terrans, as well as a few turrets. Entomb will not break the match up in anyway.

Honestly I really feel like way too many people are freaking out about the Oracle. Of course Entomb should be relatively easy to execute and it should be powerful, you aren't losing workers or expansions you're just getting your minerals blocked, for crying out loud it doesnt even affect your gas income.

Once people get used to the unit being in the game and now to prepare for it, it won't even be a big deal anymore, honestly.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
OrchidThief
Profile Joined April 2011
Denmark2298 Posts
August 14 2012 08:28 GMT
#894
I like how they succesfully managed to break up the death balls. Right? Totally.
{ToT}ColmA
Profile Joined November 2007
Japan3260 Posts
August 14 2012 08:32 GMT
#895
That looked quite boring, the protoss arsenal looks really really promising but the new terran unit warhound just seems so much lackluster, the automated missile against armored units is so boring <: I really hope that mech will be viable vs p as terran but i want it to be like broodwar, remove the warhound, add spidermines to the hellion and everything will be fine...
The only virgins in kpop left are the fans
Sparkman
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60 Posts
August 14 2012 08:36 GMT
#896
Tempest looks alright, so does the oracle, but then again would I want to go stargate in PvT just to block minerals where terran can make 3 turrets and kill an orcale? probably not.
Lorch
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany3682 Posts
August 14 2012 08:36 GMT
#897
On August 14 2012 17:10 xSTaRFiSHx wrote:
That Battlehellion/Warhound combination is beyond disgusting... >.<


Really? Atleast it doesn't look as retarded as marine marauder, though warhounds really do look like a fatter marauder. Ah well I guess the solution to all wol terran units is to give them a unit that destroys all things mechanical in addition to their unit that destroys anything armored. I don't see, besides upgrades, why warhound marauder viking shouldn't kill anything protoss has to offer.
dynwar7
Profile Joined May 2011
1983 Posts
August 14 2012 08:37 GMT
#898
On August 14 2012 16:22 architecture wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2012 16:02 Acritter wrote:
There are no changes to bio.

None. Zip. Nada. Nothing new that Protoss gets can shut it down, and there are no nerfs to Terran.

Unless mech proves to be WAY stronger (in which case TvP will likely turn out to be majorly imbalanced), bio will continue to be the go-to for this matchup. In other words? The MU will look no different than if we hadn't had HotS at all.

Great news, eh guys?


Mothership core will destroy the general viability of bio, except for specific surprise builds on particular maps.

13 range cannon early game will deny earlier drops, and minimize the need P has to split his army before 3rd and get outpositioned. Late game, bio deathball will have no opportunity to outposition the P with mass recall.

100% you will need to be able to beat P in a straight up fight.


Thats 2 people now.

May I ask why people think Core will kill bio? Are you saying because of Core, bio will simply be not viable int TvP?

Is it because of the high damage, slow rate of fire? If so, losing a few mara/marine is not ad bas as losing a few tanks/warhounds right?

Someone please explain how Core will kill bio....?
Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves....
Snowbear
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Korea (South)1925 Posts
August 14 2012 08:41 GMT
#899
I am fearing for this for months: blizzard will make HOTS boring by making terran as boring and 1a as protoss.

"But hey, you terrans complained that you need more micro then toss in WOL, so you got what you want"?

NO. We terrans want the other races to be as hard as terran. I am so amazed by terrans like taeja, MKP, gumiho, because their macro, micro and multitask is amazing. How can warhounds and battle hellions make for an amazing game? It's just boring 1a, and I am so happy that I didn't go into a coma when watching this battle report.

Please blizzard, make it so that zerg and protoss players have to micro. Make the other races as hard as terran, and don't make the terran race a boring 1a race!!!
DrakeFZX3
Profile Joined October 2010
United States925 Posts
August 14 2012 08:44 GMT
#900
I like the Mothership Core in that it'll prevent 4gates in PvP and other one base all-ins.

The mere existence of the Core will allow safer expos in PvP.
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