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Heart of the Swarm TvP Battle Report! - Page 41

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Asha
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom38257 Posts
August 14 2012 05:57 GMT
#801
Stop making me not want to play Terran any more blizz =(
AnachronisticAnarchy
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States2957 Posts
August 14 2012 05:59 GMT
#802
On August 14 2012 14:48 forsooth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2012 14:15 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On August 14 2012 14:01 Vindicare605 wrote:
On August 14 2012 13:57 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
In regards to the new units, I think the warhound is unecessary. It is too easy to use, and is also trying to fill a role already being filled. The new hellion alone makes mech viable, and tanks already WRECK (all caps bolded for emphasis) most mechanical units by the virtue that they are usually armored.
I think Blizzard should probably add a micro-intensive skill unit to the mech composition in place of the warhound, akin to the viper, or the infestor. Of course, this unit shouldn't be good enough (or have abilities designed in such a way as) to completely remove positioning from the equation, as positioning is one of the core aspects of mech. It should give mech a higher skill cap and make it more fun for spectators (and many players).
As it stands, it seems that mech TvP is going to be one of the easier matchups, which is not so good since many of the other matchups are getting their skill-cap increased.


Well one of the main purposes of the Warhound is actually for it to be an Anti-Siege Tank unit, capable of rushing tank lines easier than bio can because it's beefier.

As for its role in the TvP match up, Mech doesn't have a unit quite like it, it's more similar to a Marauder than it is anything else, but it can't be healed by Medivacs and doesn't have stim which already makes it much different.

I think after playing in the alpha that Warhounds might be a little too strong right now especially considering their cost, but the unit design itself is something that will fit rather nicely into the mech playstyle once its been tuned a bit.

The Haywire missle in particular I think is too strong, it either needs a longer cooldown or reduced damage.


True, I forgot about the siege-line breaking role. That should be interesting, comparing its bust capabilities versus that of bio.
Still not sure about the TvP thing, though. I mean, mech has three parts, right? The tanks, which kick ass and take names. The buffer for the tanks, which make it so that the tanks can keep kicking ass and taking more names. Then, the AA, because tanks can't shoot up.
Where does the warhound fit into that equation? Without the warhound, mech TvP is going to be a game of buffers, air battles and positioning, where catching the mech player unsieged is important, as well as having your buffer outlast his, because the fragile, expensive units behind the buffer die easily on both sides. In addition, the air battle will be keeping the match dynamic and increasing the skillcap somewhat. Vikings versus tempests will play a crucial role in maintaining leads in positioning and army.
Nice and pat, with a nice level of skill.
Now, what happens if we throw in the warhound? The warhound's ability bypasses the buffer completely, which I guess makes it useful, but it does weird things with how mech TvP is going to be played. It's also a 1a unit, even more so than a valuable, long range unit like, say, the colossus, because it's a cheap unit with no significant range or speed advantage, thus making it a dispensable front-line fighter. The warhound will likely be a part of the buffer, probably just behind the hellions, but it changes the way the buffer works.
I don't know man, I just don't like it. Maybe it's the fact that it's a low skill unit in its current form. Maybe I just don't like how it sort of doesn't feel "pat", overlapping roles with some things and fundamentally different in other ways. Either way, I'm pretty uncertain about this unit, and still feel a micro-intensive, skill-based unit would add more to TvP mech than this thing.

The problem is, tanks don't kick ass and take names in SC2 TvP. If they did, you'd see the more often.


That's what they're changing in HotS, though, and that's what I'm discussing.
If your issue is not the overall viability of mech, but rather the power of tanks specifically, well, those fuckers are beast in TvP when you aren't firing at pure immortals or zealots. I already mentioned zealots in my little "buffer battle" part, and mass immortals shouldn't be too much of an issue, because mass immortal sucks.
Seriously, if you don't believe in the tank, go to a unit tester map and ram a bunch of stalkers and colossi into a wad of tanks. The carnage will surprise you. Now, imagine if those tanks had a strong buffer, which is what they're going to have in HotS.
"How are you?" "I am fine, because it is not normal to scream in pain."
SigmaoctanusIV
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States3313 Posts
August 14 2012 06:00 GMT
#803
Tempest look so horrible in this video. makes me nervous
I am Godzilla You are Japan
etofok
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
138 Posts
August 14 2012 06:04 GMT
#804
Widow mine is the most awesome unit, at least in custom map of HOTS, just pure awesomeness, can't even explain. I'd be happiest person in the entire world, if they keep them like this.
The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey?
Myrkskog
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada481 Posts
August 14 2012 06:04 GMT
#805
On August 14 2012 10:51 ZAiNs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2012 10:49 trifecta wrote:
Yeah, they need to invite some pros to do these things. Hard to tell how it's going to shake out without pros playing. SC2 devs should be forced to watch every major tournament VOD b/c it doesn't seem like they're watching/watching the same game.

Watch the recent David Kim interview, they watch all the major tournaments.


They claim they all watch major tournaments. But then they interview Dustin Browder asking about the late game ZvP Mothership dynamic and he has no clue what the fuck they are talking about...

As for the Battle Report:


The Warhound looks so out of place it actually takes away from the immersion. It's too big, but in a weird way that is hard to pinpoint. I think that it's too tall, and that makes it look really out of place when beside other units. It's not as though a mech is out of place because the thor is fine, but the model for the Warhound is just completely wrong looking.


The new rock piles are stupid. The only way to redeem them is to make it so they crush whatever units are there when they fall. It will be like when cavemen chased wolly mammoths into a gorge and then pushed boulders on them.


The only exciting idea in that battlereport was the mothership core. It's a great fundamental idea which deserves applause, however the abilities they have given it fall flat compared to the idea of the core itself.


The Battle Hellion, Tempest, and Warhound are all painfully uninspired.


The Oracle doesn't deserve what little credit it is getting. It is a terrible unit. Nobody wants to watch that piece of shit fly around freezing patches.
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16126 Posts
August 14 2012 06:05 GMT
#806
On August 14 2012 15:04 Myrkskog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2012 10:51 ZAiNs wrote:
On August 14 2012 10:49 trifecta wrote:
Yeah, they need to invite some pros to do these things. Hard to tell how it's going to shake out without pros playing. SC2 devs should be forced to watch every major tournament VOD b/c it doesn't seem like they're watching/watching the same game.

Watch the recent David Kim interview, they watch all the major tournaments.


They claim they all watch major tournaments. But then they interview Dustin Browder asking about the late game ZvP Mothership dynamic and he has no clue what the fuck they are talking about...

As for the Battle Report:


The Warhound looks so out of place it actually takes away from the immersion. It's too big, but in a weird way that is hard to pinpoint. I think that it's too tall, and that makes it look really out of place when beside other units. It's not as though a mech is out of place because the thor is fine, but the model for the Warhound is just completely wrong looking.


The new rock piles are stupid. The only way to redeem them is to make it so they crush whatever units are there when they fall. It will be like when cavemen chased wolly mammoths into a gorge and then pushed boulders on them.


The only exciting idea in that battlereport was the mothership core. It's a great fundamental idea which deserves applause, however the abilities they have given it fall flat compared to the idea of the core itself.


The Battle Hellion, Tempest, and Warhound are all painfully uninspired.


The Oracle doesn't deserve what little credit it is getting. It is a terrible unit. Nobody wants to watch that piece of shit fly around freezing patches.


Fun fact.

The Rock Towers DO in fact crush any unit that is in their path when they fall.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
bokeevboke
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Singapore1674 Posts
August 14 2012 06:07 GMT
#807
Not impressed at all. Things I didn't like:
1. Tempest is totally useless.
2. Oracle is very gimmick and easily shut down.
3. The game is still "get army and 1a"
4. Terrans have deathball now, hoooray!

Its grack
Kodak
Profile Joined March 2011
United States157 Posts
August 14 2012 06:08 GMT
#808
On August 14 2012 14:27 etofok wrote:
I'd sacrifice a warhound and make cool bio. Actually, I've played a couple of games with my masters friend (I'm ~top diamond right now) and I've found that bio + mines are extremely hard to control, but very, very scaling with skill and cool to play and watch.
Adding these stuff like Entomb (which is absolutely boring to do as protoss player) and annoying tempests we get insane apm amount needed. Protoss player has to have two times more control groups, because of oracle and mothercore have to be controlled.
Photon cannon with 60 dmg and 13 range AND 1.5 attack speed is just ridiculous, can't believe, hope this bs will be removed, because this is like Queens nowadays.

I'd watch bio + mines TvP all day long. Hope warhound dies in alpha.


Bio + mines could actually be fairly entertaining to watch, but it's hard to say having not seen anything close to that style yet.

Really wish the mine delay would be shorter, as it stands it's extremely slow and I'd imagine it would be fairly boring to watch as a spectator (in that there's no instant "oh crap he's about to step on a mine"). Or better yet, give us the vulture back! :D
twitch.tv/crwnkodak [ Taeja | Huk | MMA ]
Myrkskog
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada481 Posts
August 14 2012 06:09 GMT
#809
On August 14 2012 15:05 Vindicare605 wrote:

Fun fact.

The Rock Towers DO in fact crush any unit that is in their path when they fall.


Awesome. I'm glad to see that the HoTS development team is at least on the strategic level of a Neanderthal.
Ryder.
Profile Joined January 2011
1117 Posts
August 14 2012 06:09 GMT
#810
On August 14 2012 14:02 Tel Maethor wrote:
I hate the new designs. They seem to be betraying BW in an attempt to distinguish this from it. I probably won't be buying this if the designs don't change.

I hate that they are axe'ing the Carrier, I think that the Tempest is too gimmicky. I think that the Oracle is cool, but also too gimmicky. PvT will turn into mass Phoenix into Tempests, you'll have a cloud of Phoenixes protecting super-range units, making more of a deathball. I really don't want Terran mech to be the new mass Roaches.
>> Build Warhounds >> Kill Protosses
The Viper seems incredibly strong for what it does. Zergs could easily swap out a couple of Infestors in their lategame to be even more untouchable. Couple that with the Mothership Nerf and Toss is even more screwed. Without a vortex Protoss can't get rid of GG Lords.
I don't see the Battlecruiser being used at either. There's no reason to use that over mass Viking even with the new overdrive. Terrans have miserable anti-air because the marines are just so good at it.
If you want to blow up the game and totally fuck WoL builds fine, but give us better and more dynamic options, not shit on top of shit.

That said, I went back and I watched the old battle reports from 2010, just to see where some differences were. Immortals used to be Gateway units. Protoss used to have a pylon that increased mining from probes. Infestors used to be able to Neural from underground. Tech paths and attachments were changed all over the place. It was hysterical how broken that was. It'll probably get better, because it can't get much worse.

It would just be so cool if Blizzard brought in top players for their design advice. Publicly. Working with the community would be such a good way to drag their image out of the crapper where it is right now.

PvT turn into mass pheonix into Tempest? You realise the Marine is still in HOTS build right?
befek
Profile Joined September 2010
Poland413 Posts
August 14 2012 06:11 GMT
#811
At first I was like "god tempest has a big range" but after 15 minutes of flying around, shooting all the time and getting nothing done in process I guess they had to give something to tempest so it's not totally useless
Dan "Artosis" Stark: Roaches are coming, Game of Drones begins!
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10383 Posts
August 14 2012 06:13 GMT
#812
On August 14 2012 15:05 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2012 15:04 Myrkskog wrote:
On August 14 2012 10:51 ZAiNs wrote:
On August 14 2012 10:49 trifecta wrote:
Yeah, they need to invite some pros to do these things. Hard to tell how it's going to shake out without pros playing. SC2 devs should be forced to watch every major tournament VOD b/c it doesn't seem like they're watching/watching the same game.

Watch the recent David Kim interview, they watch all the major tournaments.


They claim they all watch major tournaments. But then they interview Dustin Browder asking about the late game ZvP Mothership dynamic and he has no clue what the fuck they are talking about...

As for the Battle Report:


The Warhound looks so out of place it actually takes away from the immersion. It's too big, but in a weird way that is hard to pinpoint. I think that it's too tall, and that makes it look really out of place when beside other units. It's not as though a mech is out of place because the thor is fine, but the model for the Warhound is just completely wrong looking.


The new rock piles are stupid. The only way to redeem them is to make it so they crush whatever units are there when they fall. It will be like when cavemen chased wolly mammoths into a gorge and then pushed boulders on them.


The only exciting idea in that battlereport was the mothership core. It's a great fundamental idea which deserves applause, however the abilities they have given it fall flat compared to the idea of the core itself.


The Battle Hellion, Tempest, and Warhound are all painfully uninspired.


The Oracle doesn't deserve what little credit it is getting. It is a terrible unit. Nobody wants to watch that piece of shit fly around freezing patches.


Fun fact.

The Rock Towers DO in fact crush any unit that is in their path when they fall.


HOLY SHIT LOL really? that's interesting!


Btw I like the mothership core as well. It helps with the stargate tech by helping you defense wise since you don't have strong units to deal with MMM early on since you don't have AOE. It is also interesting vs tanks early because it can stop 1/1/1. But I wonder if buffing tanks would be a good idea (to stick closer with the idea that tanks embody the "spirit" of the mech army, like in BW), since they now have mothership core to deal with 1/1/1. Tanks aren't so useful in TvZ anymore (due to ultras tanking) and tanks are getting even more ways to be countered in HotS. And mech in TvT isn't even close to being used 1/4 of the time, so why not buff the tank, if only ~5 dmg vs X type? Mech isn't popular/solid like bio in TvZ neither, as early mass roaches can easily overwhelm the mech army when tank numbers are small. It would also allow the warhound to be nerfed slightly, so that the army will still be more based on tanks than these mobile warhounds.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
zeratul_jf
Profile Joined October 2011
United States808 Posts
August 14 2012 06:13 GMT
#813
This just made Terran have a deathball. Tempest seems pretty lame, poor protoss getting the crappy part of this expansion as far as it has been shown.
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16126 Posts
August 14 2012 06:14 GMT
#814
On August 14 2012 15:09 Myrkskog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2012 15:05 Vindicare605 wrote:

Fun fact.

The Rock Towers DO in fact crush any unit that is in their path when they fall.


Awesome. I'm glad to see that the HoTS development team is at least on the strategic level of a Neanderthal.


I was thinking more Mulan than Neanderthal. >:D
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
daralharb
Profile Joined January 2011
United States59 Posts
August 14 2012 06:15 GMT
#815
22 range on the tempest? The most difficult thing to watch during the battle report was watching the fight and then waaaaay off screen the tempest is doing damage. There should have been no reason why protoss lost that match. The tempest looks like the broodlord that zerg has always dreamed of: it can shoot up.
If they keep things the way they are, (and i know they won't) all toss will have to do is protect the tempest and get good positioning (around a cliff or something) and you simply will not be able to assault them. Oh, and if you do you either:
A) Die
B) Mass recall out

I think in the right hands (Huk, Squirtlle /insert favorite protoss name here ), toss would be heavily overpowered
Dgotto
Profile Joined February 2012
Russian Federation210 Posts
August 14 2012 06:15 GMT
#816
Game of a-click. Sad story. In HoTS only toss will need micro (
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10383 Posts
August 14 2012 06:18 GMT
#817
On August 14 2012 15:15 Dgotto wrote:
Game of a-click. Sad story. In HoTS only toss will need micro (


The game was heavily lacking in harassment... in a real game (is it scripted? or they picked an example that was focusing mostly on new units only) there would be much more going around and it would be hard to make sure you siege up in time to defend and such. Mech play is about positioning, not micro'ing in the way that bio requires. This is a nice difference that keeps the 2 styles unique and fun in their own way.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
boomudead1
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States186 Posts
August 14 2012 06:20 GMT
#818
cmon guys that game was scripted. toss cudve made immortal and wudve counter mech. terran cudve went MMM and just out right kill at the 11 min mark.
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-14 06:22:12
August 14 2012 06:21 GMT
#819
Browder knows who the supreme race really is. Once we are all dead and gone, even after the cockroaches are dead and gone... THE ROCKS SHALL REMAIN!

On August 14 2012 15:20 boomudead1 wrote:
cmon guys that game was scripted. toss cudve made immortal and wudve counter mech. terran cudve went MMM and just out right kill at the 11 min mark.


I was about to make a serious reply to this.. lol
Reborn8u
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1761 Posts
August 14 2012 06:21 GMT
#820
Something just occurred to me, speed prisms are going to be completely ridiculous combined with recall. In late game, with 12 gates I could drop 2 immortals warp in 12 stalkers snipe a bunch of shit and leave, with no risk. Even if they are about to kill my prism on the way in, I can just recall it. Or imagine 12 DT's in your main murdering everything, then I just recall and bam 6 archons for defense or just to add to my army. Storm drops anyone?

It doesn't even have to be late game, you can probably do this kind of crap on 1 base with how fast you get recall. Think of those times when you get into a zerg or terrans main with a small army and FF them out. As soon as you run out of FF, your army is at home, safe. You wont be able to save your buildings OR counter attack against this.

With mechs main weakness being mobility, it's like protoss itself will be the counter to mech. Good luck denying a protoss 3rd base with the mothership core out as well. It will be super easy for toss to force a late game.

I play protoss and I know this will have Zergs and terrans rolling there eyes and shuttering. I doubt this stuff will make it into release. It's going to be impossible to balance.
:)
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