EPTHeart of the Swarm TvP Battle Report! - Page 42
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YMCApylons
Taiwan359 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10338 Posts
On August 14 2012 15:20 boomudead1 wrote: cmon guys that game was scripted. toss cudve made immortal and wudve counter mech. terran cudve went MMM and just out right kill at the 11 min mark. In the sense of direct engagements, yes immortals are like a soft counter to mech right now, but that's only if you engage. There are ways to deal with it to make it not so much a counter anymore. In HotS they will be even less of a counter due to mines + warhounds giving more options without having to tech outside of the factory so soon. | ||
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Enki
United States2548 Posts
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metasapien
United States5 Posts
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RifleCow
Canada637 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10338 Posts
On August 14 2012 15:24 metasapien wrote: I'd like to get some Protoss opinions here: Do you think that a ghost-less mech army will be worthwhile in HotS TvP? I've found that a 3rd base requires Ghosts atm. What do you think? Ghosts would still help but not be as important since massing immortals wouldn't be as strong (since you have warhounds to help get rid of hardened shields now). If they choose to get HTs midgame then yea, ghosts will still be useful! On August 14 2012 15:26 RifleCow wrote: I absolutely hate the warhound. Giant marauder. If it's mech, everything should be about pushing forward your siege line, if you ball up all ur mech and attack with it then you should be squashed simple as that. With the warhound it seems you can just build 100% warhounds and be fine against anything protoss builds. I can see protoss getting void rays against warhound heavy compositions. This would force terran to add vikings. Without sufficient tank numbers, those vikings would probably just die to stalker fire and then the void rays can have at the anti-air-less army. Or if you can kite warhounds with colossi, I can see that working as well. But yes I am concerned about the versatility of the warhound. I would prefer it to be slightly weaker and in turn make the tank stronger. | ||
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
On August 14 2012 14:20 vesicular wrote: The only problem is if you watch the original WoL BR's, most of what they had in there made it into the game. While some of this will be tweaked, and they may even remove a unit, 90% of it is going to ship with the release. Yeah but I really think HotS is so different from WoL on many levels, you can't really look at them the same way. We don't even have a release date for HotS (most likely won't be till 2013) and hopefully Blizz will keep it in beta for as long as is necessary. I think lots can and will be changed once we have a beta, and I am quite optimistic for the future personally. On August 14 2012 14:26 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: (This post is probably going to come off as condescending, so apologies in advance, it is not my intention) Just curious, why would you like mass tempest? The only reason I can think of off the top of my head is EP1C L4Z4RS!!!!1!1111!!! It is basically a mashup of all the bad qualities of colossus wars, with none of the redeeming factors. Since it is a 23 range, flying unit, there is no need to be concerned about micro, positioning or anything of the sort. The only factor that will ever matter is how many of those things you can mass up. Of course, that is only if that strategy is actually viable, but I'm not sure if it is. If it is though, I would be a very sad panda. lol its just a fun idea that popped up in my head. It would be better than mass colossus no? The 22 range would make things interesting atleast, though since the tempest can position itself better than other siege units it wouldn't be nearly as interesting as it could be. But I literally theorycrafted for 15 seconds after I got that idea and instantly dismissed it as impossible and it would never be viable as the game currently is. | ||
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
Please vent somewhere else. If you're angry, don't post here. Calm down and then discuss things rationally and with an open mind. | ||
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JeanLuc
Canada377 Posts
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ZaaaaaM
Netherlands1828 Posts
On August 14 2012 15:21 Reborn8u wrote: Something just occurred to me, speed prisms are going to be completely ridiculous combined with recall. In late game, with 12 gates I could drop 2 immortals warp in 12 stalkers snipe a bunch of shit and leave, with no risk. Even if they are about to kill my prism on the way in, I can just recall it. Or imagine 12 DT's in your main murdering everything, then I just recall and bam 6 archons for defense or just to add to my army. Storm drops anyone? It doesn't even have to be late game, you can probably do this kind of crap on 1 base with how fast you get recall. Think of those times when you get into a zerg or terrans main with a small army and FF them out. As soon as you run out of FF, your army is at home, safe. You wont be able to save your buildings OR counter attack against this. With mechs main weakness being mobility, it's like protoss itself will be the counter to mech. Good luck denying a protoss 3rd base with the mothership core out as well. It will be super easy for toss to force a late game. I play protoss and I know this will have Zergs and terrans rolling there eyes and shuttering. I doubt this stuff will make it into release. It's going to be impossible to balance. You know it costs 150 energy right? You cant spam it all game long Battle report: Terran deathball, yay-_- Oracle and tempest seem gimicky and able to do some cute stuff, but when it comes to the real engagement theyre useless. Core is awesome tho, love that | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On August 14 2012 15:38 JeanLuc wrote: I would rather they buff tanks if they wanted to make mech viable again, but I understand its not realistic to expect this. I too was disappointed by the way the tempests seemed in this game. I was thinking that they might be good at supporting DT harass by sniping static detection from a distance. Of course this does seem a very expensive form of harass. I feel like they don't want to buff the Tank because of TvZ but tbh, the band aids they are giving to mech TvP is making mech.. well.. non mechy. | ||
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Phlatline
Croatia176 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9377 Posts
Game was utterly terrible. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On August 14 2012 15:43 Hider wrote: Two gold players playing against each other. Was that the best Blizzard could do? Game was utterly terrible. The protoss was david kim, who is GM with Rnadom. Xx The battle report is scripted, obviously they are playing kind of weird. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On August 14 2012 14:59 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: That's what they're changing in HotS, though, and that's what I'm discussing. If your issue is not the overall viability of mech, but rather the power of tanks specifically, well, those fuckers are beast in TvP when you aren't firing at pure immortals or zealots. I already mentioned zealots in my little "buffer battle" part, and mass immortals shouldn't be too much of an issue, because mass immortal sucks. Seriously, if you don't believe in the tank, go to a unit tester map and ram a bunch of stalkers and colossi into a wad of tanks. The carnage will surprise you. Now, imagine if those tanks had a strong buffer, which is what they're going to have in HotS. Its not about mass zealots or immortals. Simply put, tanks just suck vs anything protoss other than sentries or stalkers. Why? They dont kill shit fast enough and theres not enough of them either due to the 3 supply cap they have. That is the issue. In BW, the only thing that buffered tanks were 75HP vultures and mini nukes that could literally backfire and take chunks out of your forces. The reason this wall was good enough was because the fire power was there to vaporise everything on the ground. The thing about mech is that it would be very immobile, requires positioning and setup time but the firepower should be almost twice as much as bio. Everything should get blown from the ground to compensate for being so slow and cumbersome. Bio on the other hand is very mobile, cheaply produced and have somewhat firepower that gets limited as P reaches the ultimate deathball composition. However from the look of things, that is simply not there. I love it when they reason warhound to be anti-mech, when theres this unit called the marauder which pretty much counters all "mech" i mean armoured units. People have figured out so many different ways of breaking through siege lines, its not the issue at hand. For wood leaguers, well its something they will learn as they progress in getting better. Lets once again look at the Bio composition just to point out what mech requires. The standard MMM consists of marines, the marauder and medivacs. -Marines role = General purpose unit of the composition. -Marauder role = Damage to armoured unit specialists/provide tanking for the marines -Medivacs role = Provide support via healing and mobility. Anyone can see that these units are very well sync'd with one another. The synergy is really good, and they rely on one another as the game progresses. The ratio of marine to marauder can be adjusted to deal the type of damage you want so its very flexible. Although I hate the marauder as it doesn't jibe with the whole "bio" thing due to having so much hp and dealing a ton of damage, Blizz has done a good job of coming up with this composition. Now with Mech in HOTS -Battle Hellions role = Provide damage to light AOE, buffering for tanks and "mobility" (a unit that can reposition quickly, buying time for its damage dealers to get ready). -Warhound = Provide damage to mechanical, buffering for tanks and very mobile. -Tanks role = Provide somewhat damage to armoured (AOE), doesn't require to be sieged because in tank mode they can just pound away at the enemy without sacrificing mobility. -Thors role = Provide damage to armoured (Single) while being a somewhat AA ground against light air units. Also provide additional buffering. -Widow Mine role = Provide another option for AA, buffer for the tanks and also provides further pro You can see unlike MMM, theres just so many things that overlap with this composition while also favouring a combo of units. Abilities like siege mode becomes useless due to the warhounds effectiveness. Whats the point of all that buffering and protecting the tanks when you dont really need them anymore? because you've effectively created a Terran version of the deathball. Widow mines also dont make sense because they require setup time and this deathball doesn't require a setup time. As many have already noticed in the mech composition, there is NO general purpose unit in this composition like the marine. In BW, this role was filled by the tanks. Instead of dealing damage in rapid bursts like the marine, the tanks simply do a ton slowly counterbalanced by requiring it to setup in siege mode. This is what defined mech and made mech possible in BW because the composition revolved around tanks. What Blizzard has to do is give tanks this role back. The maps have in a way, long past steppes and lost temple that tanks should be able to regain back there 50 or 60 damage per shot (while reducing the supply to 2 - dont take this balance suggestion to literally but something needs to be done to give tanks back their role). This also makes all those units that counter tanks, make sense in the first place while making them more valuable. HOTS provides more options anyway (viper hook to tempest's insane range). If we go back to the composition with that in mind (minus thor and warhound): -Battle Hellions role = Provide damage to light AOE, buffering for tanks and "mobility" (a unit that can reposition quickly, buying time for its damage dealers to get ready). -Tanks role = General purpose unit of the composition. -?? unit X role = Need a unit that provides a general purpose AA capability instead of relying on vikings and/or buffering for tanks and/or deal specific damage to a unit type (Something that does AA + and one of the two required roles). If the thor is added back, then they should maybe think about reworking the thor to reduce some of its overlapping roles. This would truly make T more exciting to play because Bio, Mech and Sky Terran will all provide different playstyles that has its pros and cons. (Dont forget that you can mix and match to a more general composition instead of relying on certain tech paths). They really need to go back to the drawing board on this one because they are ignoring the root cause of the issue with mech. /rant | ||
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Bajsgrodan
Afghanistan408 Posts
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On August 14 2012 15:21 SupLilSon wrote: Browder knows who the supreme race really is. Once we are all dead and gone, even after the cockroaches are dead and gone... THE ROCKS SHALL REMAIN! the collapsible rocks are proof to this | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9377 Posts
On August 14 2012 14:15 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: True, I forgot about the siege-line breaking role. That should be interesting, comparing its bust capabilities versus that of bio. Still not sure about the TvP thing, though. I mean, mech has three parts, right? The tanks, which kick ass and take names. The buffer for the tanks, which make it so that the tanks can keep kicking ass and taking more names. Then, the AA, because tanks can't shoot up. Where does the warhound fit into that equation? Without the warhound, mech TvP is going to be a game of buffers, air battles and positioning, where catching the mech player unsieged is important, as well as having your buffer outlast his, because the fragile, expensive units behind the buffer die easily on both sides. In addition, the air battle will be keeping the match dynamic and increasing the skillcap somewhat. Vikings versus tempests will play a crucial role in maintaining leads in positioning and army. Nice and pat, with a nice level of skill. Now, what happens if we throw in the warhound? The warhound's ability bypasses the buffer completely, which I guess makes it useful, but it does weird things with how mech TvP is going to be played. It's also a 1a unit, even more so than a valuable, long range unit like, say, the colossus, because it's a cheap unit with no significant range or speed advantage, thus making it a dispensable front-line fighter. The warhound will likely be a part of the buffer, probably just behind the hellions, but it changes the way the buffer works. I don't know man, I just don't like it. Maybe it's the fact that it's a low skill unit in its current form. Maybe I just don't like how it sort of doesn't feel "pat", overlapping roles with some things and fundamentally different in other ways. Either way, I'm pretty uncertain about this unit, and still feel a micro-intensive, skill-based unit would add more to TvP mech than this thing. Warhound is so boring honestly. Blizzard showed that still don't understand what makes a game great. | ||
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NightOfTheDead
Lithuania1711 Posts
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