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I'd sacrifice a warhound and make cool bio. Actually, I've played a couple of games with my masters friend (I'm ~top diamond right now) and I've found that bio + mines are extremely hard to control, but very, very scaling with skill and cool to play and watch.
Adding these stuff like Entomb (which is absolutely boring to do as protoss player) and annoying tempests we get insane apm amount needed. Protoss player has to have two times more control groups, because of oracle and mothercore have to be controlled.
Photon cannon with 60 dmg and 13 range AND 1.5 attack speed is just ridiculous, can't believe, hope this bs will be removed, because this is like Queens nowadays.
I'd watch bio + mines TvP all day long. Hope warhound dies in alpha.
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On August 14 2012 14:03 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:58 BoZiffer wrote:On August 14 2012 11:46 FinestHour wrote:On August 14 2012 11:44 Aratan wrote:On August 14 2012 11:42 Silentness wrote:
Am I the only one that feels like were being trolled by the new "destructible rocks". They literally blow up into MORE got damn rocks. I know someone joked about Blizzard making destructible rocks under more rocks, but they are seriously thinking it's a good idea. Hopefully they change their minds and remove it during the actual game release. Hah i was thinking the same thing. Destroy 500 life rocks, new 2000 life rocks spawn I HEARD YOU LIKE ROCKS SO WE PUT ROCKS IN YOUR ROCKS SO YOU CA- Post of the year. I thought it was kind of funny that the Terran was trying to stutter-step micro his mech and it wasn't even close to possible... like he was fighting old habits or something. I didn't really see much to be super-excited about in that video. The only thing that really excites me about HOTS is that it will reset the pros and the Kespa pro's will be on near even footing with GOM guys... so thats the bright side. Outside o' that... I'll just wait till its really released. Mech vs Protoss wasn't ever micro intensive really in BW either outside of Vultures and yet the match up was still pretty damn exciting.
That's because of...Vultures! Honestly they could get rid of Warhounds and widow mines and just bring back Vultures/spiders and mech play would look and feel 100x more exciting.
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On August 14 2012 14:27 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 14:24 Integra wrote:I will go against the trend in this thread and say some positive stuff about this Battle Report. You can now actually see how many harvesters you have... and that's it.... + Show Spoiler + If you do not like the part about harvesters, I am happy to inform you that, from what I've heard, it is only visible in replays. Also, in the hypothetical scenario that that is not the case, I'm sure the collective bitching of the SC2 community can get that change revoked, posthaste.
I actually did like it. And I'm pretty sure it will be there for multiplay as well since they already have it for gas harvesters, no point having it for replays only since you already have a harvester panel for that purpose.
EDIT: The battle report is actually done live and not from replays which the mineral harvesters count for each base is visible.
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On August 14 2012 14:23 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:43 Doko wrote:
Some thoughts:
- Rock towers are awesome. You don't have to use them on your map. They are there and they give map makers options. Options are always good. If they turn out to not be good for the game... the community will simply not use them. Just like it did with steppes of war.
- The tempest is a very weird unit. While the ground attack seems to be all the rage the main purpose of the unit in its original concept was air dominance over everything. From what I was able to see the unit seems to do an ok job at it but it dint feel as OP as it should considering their cost. Interesting possibilities arise when you start thinking about sniping infestors / ghosts with 22 range ground attack, vikings / corruptors clumping up. They could even spell doom for war of the worlds PvP if the ground attack can be used on colossus (as in the ai doesn't bug out and try to fly to air attack range even though its in range for ground attack)
- The warhound is a beefed up marauder that can't stim or be medvac healed. But it does have enough HP and mobility to break siege lines. Thors could do this to a certain extent but there movement speed prohibited from really getting past the point of tanking the first couple siege tank volleys. I'm really exited to see them how they interact in major battles. If the colossus / zealot charge breaks the line fast enough immortals are gonna have a field day. EMP could play a major role here but i do think its gonna add complexity to battles. You might not want to throw every zealot at the front right away and save some when the hellions die (remember toss can reinforce directly if the battle is going your way) effectibly putting light armor to play soaking warhound / siege tank fire.
Overall I do think the unit seems a little lame, specially the missiles but I'm writing them off as garbage/OP just yet.
- Battle hellions... I'm really scared this unit might break the game in TvZ more than anything it can do in TvP. Hellion marauder pushes just seem so scary. In TvP they add an interesting feature to terran. They are not marines! They can't do damage to every armor type at the same rate. Warhounds seems expensive enough to not want to be throwing them around all your bases to defend. While hellions might be very fast they don't do so well vs stalkers.
Thus opening up protoss to weird stuff we haven't seen in wings yet. like colossus drops (remember mech is very limited on anti air) more stalker harassment.
- Mothership core... where to start...
This thing is insane. Maybe a little too insane. Bunker rushes are a thing of the past to say the least. As long as you don't die right away you'll be in good shape. Recall might be a little too powerful but its expensive enough to make you think twice about recalling over warping nearby.
The range 13 60 damage cannon is an odd addition to toss defenses Almost like blizzard is really scared of them getting killed in the 6-8 min range, its not gonna do much if 20 lings are attacking your nexus but you sure as hell wont be dying to marines, those poor suckers are getting 1 shot from almost a screen away.
Refilling your recently emped high templars for that one storm that will win you the game could bring us some awesome moments.
- The widow mine while simple will certainly add to those OOOOOOHhhhhhh moments in pro games. Can't really say if it will accomplish its goal of splitting the death ball but it will certainly be interesting to spectate its use.
tldr: I don't think the units are bad. But they do need polishing. And HoTs will certainly be more interesting to spectate and hopefully play if some of these units accomplish their stated goals.
You almost win the thread, in my opinion. Just for not bitching out about how "Blizzard needs to hear us bitch so that they don't put horrible unit design in beta" My first impressions: All of the sudden, it looks like protoss has the capability and will HAVE to endlessly harass their opponents. Ideally, oracles will never get an entomb off. You know, unless blink stalkers are in your main and targeting down tech labs and then get recalled out while you are not mining. It looks cool. and the Tempest has me sold(atleast for now). I can just imagine all the fun kiting on that thing is. Weeeee! One concern i have is that there is too much, but it makes the game more complex and harder to figure out and makes compositions more varied. It could be good(it could just be a new game i don't understand yet), but it could be like OMG any build works. Warhounds don't shoot up(i think?), and that compounds mechs weakness. Although it looks like terran mech eats toss for breakfast, some sort of mothership core into phoenix opening probably discourages mech quite a bit. It looks cool, but i want beta and i want pros. Watching these videos really are like proof of concept.
I agree with this, but when you talk about how mech doesn't have much AA options I can't help but think how good carriers would be there. I mean, you'd kind of need marines to take out the carriers if they're microed correctly, and that's great, it causes more army composition consideration and who doesn't enjoy making more marines?
At least, that should be the case if Tempests are good against vikings which I believe they're meant to be.
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Tempest looks disapointing...Mothership core and oracle seem kinda cool.
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Just swap the warhound model out for the Goliath, quit being so stubborn.
Entomb has gotta go, it's just terrible in all aspects.
Mothership core looks way OP, but I understand the reasoning behind giving protoss players recall earlier in the game. As anyone that watches p v z knows, right now it's either a big ass gateway all in or turtle ass for archon toilet, there is no in between, recall should help with that a bit.
The collapsible rocks are gimmicky and it feels like Blizzard are trolling the community with that one. Payback for all the Dustin Browder memes perhaps?
We can only hope the players themselves don't get to see how many workers they have mining at each base. It's a cool feature if it's spectator only though.
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psi storm, colossus, archon and dark templar are missed in this video.
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On June 20 2009 02:49 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2009 02:43 afg-warrior wrote:
out of 3 battle reports, i noticed that there aren't really any big battles like we see in broodwar. its pretty much back and forth between small squads of units. im wondering if this game's balance and how its played will allow the 80+ armies we see in broodwar.
great game though. i hope so TT seeing small 20-30 supply armies go at it just dosnt do it for me :/ i want to see some maxed out macro warfair with crazy harrass
On June 20 2009 02:43 afg-warrior wrote:
out of 3 battle reports, i noticed that there aren't really any big battles like we see in broodwar. its pretty much back and forth between small squads of units. im wondering if this game's balance and how its played will allow the 80+ armies we see in broodwar.
great game though.
LOL I took someones advice to go back to the SC2 battle reports. There are people talking about how the infestor is worthless, Forcefields are OP, and marauders will be usable in TvT. The best part are the two posts above basically asking "Where's the deathball gimme gimme".
On topic: Totally not against harvesters at base. It's not that bad and helps users and viewers. I'm wondering if lategame ghosts will be snuck near the mothership core and then when the toss runs their army into your main you emp the mothership core and laugh maniacally.
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On August 14 2012 14:26 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 14:15 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On August 14 2012 14:01 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2012 13:57 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
In regards to the new units, I think the warhound is unecessary. It is too easy to use, and is also trying to fill a role already being filled. The new hellion alone makes mech viable, and tanks already WRECK (all caps bolded for emphasis) most mechanical units by the virtue that they are usually armored.
I think Blizzard should probably add a micro-intensive skill unit to the mech composition in place of the warhound, akin to the viper, or the infestor. Of course, this unit shouldn't be good enough (or have abilities designed in such a way as) to completely remove positioning from the equation, as positioning is one of the core aspects of mech. It should give mech a higher skill cap and make it more fun for spectators (and many players).
As it stands, it seems that mech TvP is going to be one of the easier matchups, which is not so good since many of the other matchups are getting their skill-cap increased. Well one of the main purposes of the Warhound is actually for it to be an Anti-Siege Tank unit, capable of rushing tank lines easier than bio can because it's beefier. As for its role in the TvP match up, Mech doesn't have a unit quite like it, it's more similar to a Marauder than it is anything else, but it can't be healed by Medivacs and doesn't have stim which already makes it much different. I think after playing in the alpha that Warhounds might be a little too strong right now especially considering their cost, but the unit design itself is something that will fit rather nicely into the mech playstyle once its been tuned a bit. The Haywire missle in particular I think is too strong, it either needs a longer cooldown or reduced damage. True, I forgot about the siege-line breaking role. That should be interesting, comparing its bust capabilities versus that of bio. Still not sure about the TvP thing, though. I mean, mech has three parts, right? The tanks, which kick ass and take names. The buffer for the tanks, which make it so that the tanks can keep kicking ass and taking more names. Then, the AA, because tanks can't shoot up. Where does the warhound fit into that equation? Without the warhound, mech TvP is going to be a game of buffers, air battles and positioning, where catching the mech player unsieged is important, as well as having your buffer outlast his, because the fragile, expensive units behind the buffer die easily on both sides. In addition, the air battle will be keeping the match dynamic and increasing the skillcap somewhat. Vikings versus tempests will play a crucial role in maintaining leads in positioning and army. Nice and pat, with a nice level of skill. Now, what happens if we throw in the warhound? The warhound's ability bypasses the buffer completely, which I guess makes it useful, but it does weird things with how mech TvP is going to be played. It's also a 1a unit, even more so than a valuable, long range unit like, say, the colossus, because it's a cheap unit with no significant range or speed advantage, thus making it a dispensable front-line fighter. The warhound will likely be a part of the buffer, probably just behind the hellions, but it changes the way the buffer works. I don't know man, I just don't like it. Maybe it's the fact that it's a low skill unit in its current form. Maybe I just don't like how it sort of doesn't feel "pat", overlapping roles with some things and fundamentally different in other ways. Either way, I'm pretty uncertain about this unit, and still feel a micro-intensive, skill-based unit would add more to TvP mech than this thing. The thing is, I think the unit will work fine in the mech army provided there's a penalty for overmaking them. Look at Hellions for a good example, they fill their role as a buffer unit great, but because they're a melee unit if you make too many they start to become redundant really quickly, same with Corruptors, Vikings, Immortals, etc. At a certain point you get penalized for overmaking them for while they're good against a particular unit too many of them starts to hog supply away from your other units that could fit in a certain situation better. From what I experienced on the MLG build, there's literally no reason not to make Warhounds against Protoss. They're good against everything mechanical that Protoss has on the ground including Immortals, but they also hold their own decently well against Zealots, the only real unit that really does in the Warhound that Protoss has on the ground is the DT or the Archon. So, my suggestion would be that a properly tuned warhound, one that was good for taking out Immortals or Collosus for example and not good for much else, would fit in nicely to a Terran army that's going against a heavily Robo Tech army, but loses its usefuleness once a significant amount of Templar Tech is fielded which Siege Tanks and Hellions would be better against.
Yeah, I guess anti-immortal would be a good role, but isn't that sort of a niche thing? Like, "if you build immortals then I build this unit and then I win" kind of deal? Besides, my main issue isn't with the unit in and of itself, although I'm not that fond of it personally. My main issue is that I know that a better, more interesting unit could be implemented.
Let's say we implement another unit, one that instead of a-moving to fulfill its role, requires skill to use. One that, because of that required skill, does not shut down immortals. Instead, it turns the fight into a skill-based battle, where immortals need to be protected so that the protoss can maintain maximum pushing power. This unit would add something to the matchup. Instead of just being there and doing stuff, it actually makes the matchup more fun and skill-based.
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Does anyone else think that the warhound's missile feature is done completely wrong?
the fact that it will fire AND fire at a mechanical unit no matter what you are targeting with the basic attack really discourages target firing with your units that are supposed to counter a specific attribute
I think that the simple change of making their basic attack a '+ vs mechanical' with a cool missile animation perfectly acceptable
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On August 14 2012 14:35 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 14:23 Bippzy wrote:On August 14 2012 12:43 Doko wrote:
Some thoughts:
- Rock towers are awesome. You don't have to use them on your map. They are there and they give map makers options. Options are always good. If they turn out to not be good for the game... the community will simply not use them. Just like it did with steppes of war.
- The tempest is a very weird unit. While the ground attack seems to be all the rage the main purpose of the unit in its original concept was air dominance over everything. From what I was able to see the unit seems to do an ok job at it but it dint feel as OP as it should considering their cost. Interesting possibilities arise when you start thinking about sniping infestors / ghosts with 22 range ground attack, vikings / corruptors clumping up. They could even spell doom for war of the worlds PvP if the ground attack can be used on colossus (as in the ai doesn't bug out and try to fly to air attack range even though its in range for ground attack)
- The warhound is a beefed up marauder that can't stim or be medvac healed. But it does have enough HP and mobility to break siege lines. Thors could do this to a certain extent but there movement speed prohibited from really getting past the point of tanking the first couple siege tank volleys. I'm really exited to see them how they interact in major battles. If the colossus / zealot charge breaks the line fast enough immortals are gonna have a field day. EMP could play a major role here but i do think its gonna add complexity to battles. You might not want to throw every zealot at the front right away and save some when the hellions die (remember toss can reinforce directly if the battle is going your way) effectibly putting light armor to play soaking warhound / siege tank fire.
Overall I do think the unit seems a little lame, specially the missiles but I'm writing them off as garbage/OP just yet.
- Battle hellions... I'm really scared this unit might break the game in TvZ more than anything it can do in TvP. Hellion marauder pushes just seem so scary. In TvP they add an interesting feature to terran. They are not marines! They can't do damage to every armor type at the same rate. Warhounds seems expensive enough to not want to be throwing them around all your bases to defend. While hellions might be very fast they don't do so well vs stalkers.
Thus opening up protoss to weird stuff we haven't seen in wings yet. like colossus drops (remember mech is very limited on anti air) more stalker harassment.
- Mothership core... where to start...
This thing is insane. Maybe a little too insane. Bunker rushes are a thing of the past to say the least. As long as you don't die right away you'll be in good shape. Recall might be a little too powerful but its expensive enough to make you think twice about recalling over warping nearby.
The range 13 60 damage cannon is an odd addition to toss defenses Almost like blizzard is really scared of them getting killed in the 6-8 min range, its not gonna do much if 20 lings are attacking your nexus but you sure as hell wont be dying to marines, those poor suckers are getting 1 shot from almost a screen away.
Refilling your recently emped high templars for that one storm that will win you the game could bring us some awesome moments.
- The widow mine while simple will certainly add to those OOOOOOHhhhhhh moments in pro games. Can't really say if it will accomplish its goal of splitting the death ball but it will certainly be interesting to spectate its use.
tldr: I don't think the units are bad. But they do need polishing. And HoTs will certainly be more interesting to spectate and hopefully play if some of these units accomplish their stated goals.
You almost win the thread, in my opinion. Just for not bitching out about how "Blizzard needs to hear us bitch so that they don't put horrible unit design in beta" My first impressions: All of the sudden, it looks like protoss has the capability and will HAVE to endlessly harass their opponents. Ideally, oracles will never get an entomb off. You know, unless blink stalkers are in your main and targeting down tech labs and then get recalled out while you are not mining. It looks cool. and the Tempest has me sold(atleast for now). I can just imagine all the fun kiting on that thing is. Weeeee! One concern i have is that there is too much, but it makes the game more complex and harder to figure out and makes compositions more varied. It could be good(it could just be a new game i don't understand yet), but it could be like OMG any build works. Warhounds don't shoot up(i think?), and that compounds mechs weakness. Although it looks like terran mech eats toss for breakfast, some sort of mothership core into phoenix opening probably discourages mech quite a bit. It looks cool, but i want beta and i want pros. Watching these videos really are like proof of concept. I agree with this, but when you talk about how mech doesn't have much AA options I can't help but think how good carriers would be there. I mean, you'd kind of need marines to take out the carriers if they're microed correctly, and that's great, it causes more army composition consideration and who doesn't enjoy making more marines? At least, that should be the case if Tempests are good against vikings which I believe they're meant to be.
I do see where you're coming from, but perhaps they couldn't work out the game that way. Coming from a guy who used to lvl 19 twink in BGs in WOW:WOTLK(props if you know exactly what im talking about), kiting is soo fun if your opponent can't do it back. Like seriously, every tempest build ever is mine now forever.
Thinking more, I think blizzards goal is for toss not to be the strongest in the air nor the ground and have to use the two in tandem to harass and keep their opponent in check.
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On August 14 2012 14:39 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 14:26 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2012 14:15 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On August 14 2012 14:01 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2012 13:57 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
In regards to the new units, I think the warhound is unecessary. It is too easy to use, and is also trying to fill a role already being filled. The new hellion alone makes mech viable, and tanks already WRECK (all caps bolded for emphasis) most mechanical units by the virtue that they are usually armored.
I think Blizzard should probably add a micro-intensive skill unit to the mech composition in place of the warhound, akin to the viper, or the infestor. Of course, this unit shouldn't be good enough (or have abilities designed in such a way as) to completely remove positioning from the equation, as positioning is one of the core aspects of mech. It should give mech a higher skill cap and make it more fun for spectators (and many players).
As it stands, it seems that mech TvP is going to be one of the easier matchups, which is not so good since many of the other matchups are getting their skill-cap increased. Well one of the main purposes of the Warhound is actually for it to be an Anti-Siege Tank unit, capable of rushing tank lines easier than bio can because it's beefier. As for its role in the TvP match up, Mech doesn't have a unit quite like it, it's more similar to a Marauder than it is anything else, but it can't be healed by Medivacs and doesn't have stim which already makes it much different. I think after playing in the alpha that Warhounds might be a little too strong right now especially considering their cost, but the unit design itself is something that will fit rather nicely into the mech playstyle once its been tuned a bit. The Haywire missle in particular I think is too strong, it either needs a longer cooldown or reduced damage. True, I forgot about the siege-line breaking role. That should be interesting, comparing its bust capabilities versus that of bio. Still not sure about the TvP thing, though. I mean, mech has three parts, right? The tanks, which kick ass and take names. The buffer for the tanks, which make it so that the tanks can keep kicking ass and taking more names. Then, the AA, because tanks can't shoot up. Where does the warhound fit into that equation? Without the warhound, mech TvP is going to be a game of buffers, air battles and positioning, where catching the mech player unsieged is important, as well as having your buffer outlast his, because the fragile, expensive units behind the buffer die easily on both sides. In addition, the air battle will be keeping the match dynamic and increasing the skillcap somewhat. Vikings versus tempests will play a crucial role in maintaining leads in positioning and army. Nice and pat, with a nice level of skill. Now, what happens if we throw in the warhound? The warhound's ability bypasses the buffer completely, which I guess makes it useful, but it does weird things with how mech TvP is going to be played. It's also a 1a unit, even more so than a valuable, long range unit like, say, the colossus, because it's a cheap unit with no significant range or speed advantage, thus making it a dispensable front-line fighter. The warhound will likely be a part of the buffer, probably just behind the hellions, but it changes the way the buffer works. I don't know man, I just don't like it. Maybe it's the fact that it's a low skill unit in its current form. Maybe I just don't like how it sort of doesn't feel "pat", overlapping roles with some things and fundamentally different in other ways. Either way, I'm pretty uncertain about this unit, and still feel a micro-intensive, skill-based unit would add more to TvP mech than this thing. The thing is, I think the unit will work fine in the mech army provided there's a penalty for overmaking them. Look at Hellions for a good example, they fill their role as a buffer unit great, but because they're a melee unit if you make too many they start to become redundant really quickly, same with Corruptors, Vikings, Immortals, etc. At a certain point you get penalized for overmaking them for while they're good against a particular unit too many of them starts to hog supply away from your other units that could fit in a certain situation better. From what I experienced on the MLG build, there's literally no reason not to make Warhounds against Protoss. They're good against everything mechanical that Protoss has on the ground including Immortals, but they also hold their own decently well against Zealots, the only real unit that really does in the Warhound that Protoss has on the ground is the DT or the Archon. So, my suggestion would be that a properly tuned warhound, one that was good for taking out Immortals or Collosus for example and not good for much else, would fit in nicely to a Terran army that's going against a heavily Robo Tech army, but loses its usefuleness once a significant amount of Templar Tech is fielded which Siege Tanks and Hellions would be better against. Yeah, I guess anti-immortal would be a good role, but isn't that sort of a niche thing? Like, "if you build immortals then I build this unit and then I win" kind of deal? Besides, my main issue isn't with the unit in and of itself, although I'm not that fond of it personally. My main issue is that I know that a better, more interesting unit could be implemented. Let's say we implement another unit, one that instead of a-moving to fulfill its role, requires skill to use. One that, because of that required skill, does not shut down immortals. Instead, it turns the fight into a skill-based battle, where immortals need to be protected so that the protoss can maintain maximum pushing power. This unit would add something to the matchup. Instead of just being there and doing stuff, it actually makes the matchup more fun and skill-based.
Well a simple solution that would satisfy what you're looking for (and simple solutions are always the best right?) Is to remove the auto cast on the Haywire Missle, and make it cost energy (Similar to the Phoenix Graviton Beam). Voila! You've added some skill cap to the Warhound and also given Protoss another counter to it.
Like I said, the unit design itself doesn't bother me, but it could definitely use some tuning and polish before I think it's truly ready for the live servers.
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I think all we can conclude from this is how X amount of Terran units of this composition stacks against Y Protoss units. There are a gazillion different strats that both sides could have opened up (especially from Terran) that could have transitioned into Bio/Mech, Gateway/Robo oriented armies. In this example all both sides did was just expand, get a bunch of stuff and attacked each other a few times.
That being said it's surprising how reckless the terran mecher can be with regards to tank positioning and siege timing. Comparing it to something like mech vs. zerg where not having your tanks sieged up in time for just a second or two on creep could literally lose you the game instantly. Here terran can just waltz up to an expansion and only siege at the last minute when the toss finally arrives because the b-hellions and warhounds are so beefy and relatively fast
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On August 14 2012 14:15 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 14:01 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2012 13:57 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
In regards to the new units, I think the warhound is unecessary. It is too easy to use, and is also trying to fill a role already being filled. The new hellion alone makes mech viable, and tanks already WRECK (all caps bolded for emphasis) most mechanical units by the virtue that they are usually armored.
I think Blizzard should probably add a micro-intensive skill unit to the mech composition in place of the warhound, akin to the viper, or the infestor. Of course, this unit shouldn't be good enough (or have abilities designed in such a way as) to completely remove positioning from the equation, as positioning is one of the core aspects of mech. It should give mech a higher skill cap and make it more fun for spectators (and many players).
As it stands, it seems that mech TvP is going to be one of the easier matchups, which is not so good since many of the other matchups are getting their skill-cap increased. Well one of the main purposes of the Warhound is actually for it to be an Anti-Siege Tank unit, capable of rushing tank lines easier than bio can because it's beefier. As for its role in the TvP match up, Mech doesn't have a unit quite like it, it's more similar to a Marauder than it is anything else, but it can't be healed by Medivacs and doesn't have stim which already makes it much different. I think after playing in the alpha that Warhounds might be a little too strong right now especially considering their cost, but the unit design itself is something that will fit rather nicely into the mech playstyle once its been tuned a bit. The Haywire missle in particular I think is too strong, it either needs a longer cooldown or reduced damage. True, I forgot about the siege-line breaking role. That should be interesting, comparing its bust capabilities versus that of bio. Still not sure about the TvP thing, though. I mean, mech has three parts, right? The tanks, which kick ass and take names. The buffer for the tanks, which make it so that the tanks can keep kicking ass and taking more names. Then, the AA, because tanks can't shoot up. Where does the warhound fit into that equation? Without the warhound, mech TvP is going to be a game of buffers, air battles and positioning, where catching the mech player unsieged is important, as well as having your buffer outlast his, because the fragile, expensive units behind the buffer die easily on both sides. In addition, the air battle will be keeping the match dynamic and increasing the skillcap somewhat. Vikings versus tempests will play a crucial role in maintaining leads in positioning and army. Nice and pat, with a nice level of skill. Now, what happens if we throw in the warhound? The warhound's ability bypasses the buffer completely, which I guess makes it useful, but it does weird things with how mech TvP is going to be played. It's also a 1a unit, even more so than a valuable, long range unit like, say, the colossus, because it's a cheap unit with no significant range or speed advantage, thus making it a dispensable front-line fighter. The warhound will likely be a part of the buffer, probably just behind the hellions, but it changes the way the buffer works. I don't know man, I just don't like it. Maybe it's the fact that it's a low skill unit in its current form. Maybe I just don't like how it sort of doesn't feel "pat", overlapping roles with some things and fundamentally different in other ways. Either way, I'm pretty uncertain about this unit, and still feel a micro-intensive, skill-based unit would add more to TvP mech than this thing.
The problem is, tanks don't kick ass and take names in SC2 TvP. If they did, you'd see the more often.
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On August 14 2012 13:06 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:01 bittman wrote:On August 14 2012 12:42 Belha wrote:
Agree with the "making easier terran instead of making harder for the other races" statement. Right now the b-hellioin+warhound combination can take appart most ground P army with pure 1a, plus hellion harass potential. I agree that T needs a lategame buff, but i'm pretty sure that is not the way. Sort of appears that way. Mech was already pretty strong in TvP, but the issue was that hellions didn't hold a line between zealots and tanks for long enough. Battle hellions by themselves almost alone could potentially help mech be viable in the highest levels of TvP. I don't get the warhound. It fills like it feels the niche of needing a faster, energyless, attack-move unit which gets mech upgrades. Spoiler: it's not a niche. It's simply a less expensive, faster, energyless Thor that doesn't shoot up. I'm concerned I'll miss this unit called a Thor =( And yeah, agree with the overall statement of the theme. I wish they made more units which can demonstrate a high level of skill. I still think the Oracle, Viper and Mothership Core are in the right direction. Everything for terran though I'm not terribly interested in. Who knows though, I'm looking forward to being surprised, but I just don't want to see anymore "simple units" (Collosus) or useless units (Hydras). Give me more complexity! You're actually completely missing what Blizzard is doing with Terran. Terran's the race that actually benefits the most from micro right now, with terran bio being the most standard unit composition across all match ups. Terran doesn't have the option that the other races have to just sit back and macro and make a big army you can move out with. Zerg has that in the Infestor/Broodlord unit composition and Protoss has that in the deathball, are you going to sit and tell me that every Zerg that turtles straight into Infestor/Broodlord lacks skill or that Protoss takes no skill to play? No, because there's a lot more to it than that. With mech being viable, Terrans have an option in which style of Terran they'd rather play. Slower more macro and positional oriented or Bio which benefits (and still will benefit) from aggression, multitasking and unit micromanagement. For Protoss and Zerg they are adding in units that are supposed to have that higher skill cap in the Viper and Swarm Host you have two units you can't just a-move but rather have to be very careful in how you use lest you lose them immediately. Or the Mothership Core and Oracle for Protoss which both give the player their highest benefit when managed correctly throughout the course of a long game which increases the multi-tasking requirement of Protoss as a race. So in Blizzard's mind, Terran is already the "high skill cap" race. Everyone for the most part already realizes this. What they're doing in Heart of the Swarm is opening the race up a bit and giving players more ways to play it.
I love your post Vindicare.
What league are you? I even made a poll because I was so scared of bio dying because of mech....reading your post makes me happy. YEah, I think that they are adding a new OPTION for terrans, which is mech. I personally love bio too much thanks to the micro etc. But maybe I still will use mines.
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this battle report was so boring, i cant believe it.
i wont criticise everything ive just seen, but let me complain about one thing: what the f*** hell is this map? it looks terrible, is too small, has fucking rocks everywhere (a new rocks type? why not, cause everybody loved rocks, huh...) and STILL has gold minerals? have they learned ANYTHING from the past and what the community wants?
thats tremendous
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I just don't like the double standard that all the new Protoss units can't viably contribute to mass army battles, but Zerg and Terran additions all fit perfectly and actually strengthen their deathballs. They're still sucking up supply, if they were all 0 supply I'd see the argument. Want to know why Protoss air never gains viability? Because they keep just giving them gimmicky shit instead of a solid DPS fighter that is cost effective against shit it's supposed to be good against and weak against shit it's supposed to be weak against. They had no trouble giving Terran and Zerg Viking/Corruptor, but apparently a legitimate air unit is off the table. Let's make the world's fattest air unit next! But it has lots of health! Let's make a unit that attacks every 10 minutes? Why not? Why aren't these units working damnit! Imagine if Protoss air could actually force Hydras instead of their macro unit (Queens) and a Spore colony.
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I like the Warhound 
It's pretty stupid the only anti air factory tech have is Thor ( which is bad ) and Widow mine tho. -_-
Btw, that Map is soooo bad lol, no way this will be used in pro play
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On August 14 2012 13:49 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:07 Zrana wrote:On August 14 2012 12:27 yeastiality wrote:On August 14 2012 12:26 ZAiNs wrote:On August 14 2012 12:24 MCDayC wrote:
Also yeah, marauder hellion all ins do look like they will be suuuper powerful now, that may need a change. The Mothership Core Cannon will help dealing with these kind of attacks so much. Bunkers in your main base will also be easy to deal with. so the things that made people like boxer famous and proved how deep starcraft is...will be neutered by triggering one ability? well, can't say there's no precedent for it I see your fungal and raise you stasis field :p But on topic: The battle hellions i kinda like but i still wonder if mech would actually work at all against a simple immo/zealot composition, especially if the toss gets a flank off. The warhound I just don't get the point of it. What is it's purpose? You aren't gonna make warhounds vs zerg because zerg isnt going to go roach vs warhounds - and even if they do, tanks will serve the same purpose but with more range and AoE. In PvT stalkers are easy pickings for sieged up tanks anyway, and immortals will take the same damage from a tank as from a warhound. In TvT maybe they will be useful but at the moment i can only imagine two scenarios for TvT; only warhounds or none at all. In fact many of the units seem to be added for the sake of adding units rather than for any real reason or purpose. So far the ony changes that make me go, "oh that's cool" are the Viper, Ultralisk charge and the Mothership Core. haywire from warhounds bypass harden shields on immortals. The high range also allows them to snipe colossus and sentries. Sure, tanks can do some of the jobs. But tanks are incredibly slow and is very vulerable to early and mid game blink stalkers. Warhound allows equal footing during those phases
Well that cheers me a lot tbh.
I'm hoping maybe we'll see some kind of hit and run tactics with warhounds running in, haywiring and running out again. What's the cooldown on those things? Is it worth running out again after you get the haywires off?
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On August 14 2012 14:41 Archile wrote:
Does anyone else think that the warhound's missile feature is done completely wrong?
the fact that it will fire AND fire at a mechanical unit no matter what you are targeting with the basic attack really discourages target firing with your units that are supposed to counter a specific attribute
I think that the simple change of making their basic attack a '+ vs mechanical' with a cool missile animation perfectly acceptable
This is an interesting point, I thought it was strange the way they are doing it now. But the only reason I can see why they are doing it the way it is now is because they don't want you to have to target fire mechanical units. Meh, there's less micro in a sense but it allows you to focus more on positioning I guess.
Edit:
After seeing this
On August 14 2012 14:54 Zrana wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:49 iky43210 wrote:On August 14 2012 13:07 Zrana wrote:On August 14 2012 12:27 yeastiality wrote:On August 14 2012 12:26 ZAiNs wrote:On August 14 2012 12:24 MCDayC wrote:
Also yeah, marauder hellion all ins do look like they will be suuuper powerful now, that may need a change. The Mothership Core Cannon will help dealing with these kind of attacks so much. Bunkers in your main base will also be easy to deal with. so the things that made people like boxer famous and proved how deep starcraft is...will be neutered by triggering one ability? well, can't say there's no precedent for it I see your fungal and raise you stasis field :p But on topic: The battle hellions i kinda like but i still wonder if mech would actually work at all against a simple immo/zealot composition, especially if the toss gets a flank off. The warhound I just don't get the point of it. What is it's purpose? You aren't gonna make warhounds vs zerg because zerg isnt going to go roach vs warhounds - and even if they do, tanks will serve the same purpose but with more range and AoE. In PvT stalkers are easy pickings for sieged up tanks anyway, and immortals will take the same damage from a tank as from a warhound. In TvT maybe they will be useful but at the moment i can only imagine two scenarios for TvT; only warhounds or none at all. In fact many of the units seem to be added for the sake of adding units rather than for any real reason or purpose. So far the ony changes that make me go, "oh that's cool" are the Viper, Ultralisk charge and the Mothership Core. haywire from warhounds bypass harden shields on immortals. The high range also allows them to snipe colossus and sentries. Sure, tanks can do some of the jobs. But tanks are incredibly slow and is very vulerable to early and mid game blink stalkers. Warhound allows equal footing during those phases Well that cheers me a lot tbh. I'm hoping maybe we'll see some kind of hit and run tactics with warhounds running in, haywiring and running out again. What's the cooldown on those things? Is it worth running out again after you get the haywires off?
No wonder haywire is an ability instead of an attack; this way it shows it bypasses immortals more clearly. Anyways, now that this is confirmed, I'm really happy! Yes, we had hellions to tank for tanks to chip away at immortal shields, yes we had the option to get banshees to deal with immortals, and yes we had the option to get ghosts to deal with immortals, but I don't feel that hellion/tank is strong enough (definitely weaker than bio in the early-mid stage of the game), and having to tech so much didn't really make sense since mech already has to tech higher to get their units out (example, you would need ghosts/banshee for immortals, and banshee/vikings for colossi, while in bio you would only need vikings for colossi). Giving mech another versatile units (but still unique in their own ways) is awesome, instead of super specialized units. Yes, hellion/tank can deal with immortals but it's weak. Tanks can deal with colossi and HT and sentries, but it's not like it's exactly a counter. Thors are decent against almost anything early on. And now we will have the warhound to help out too.
In this case, it will make dealing with immortals much easier... after all why should a "Tier 2" protoss unit be [soft] countering the entire "Tier 2" that is mech? In bio they need the "Tier 3" colossi or HT to force MMM to get more stuff, meaning viking/ghost. So now, the protoss will still have to go tempest/colossi/HT before forcing mech players to add in vikings/ghosts/etc. Also the addition of warhounds helps mech later in the game as well -- it makes having a very high count of immortals less important. Now, Protoss has more incentive to use stargate tech to get Tempests, which will cause interesting positional battles. It is less deathball vs deathball.
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