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On August 14 2012 13:28 vesicular wrote:
I saw sim city and rock crushing for 10 mins, followed by microless a-move for the rest of the game. How exactly is any of this making the game better?
They talked so much about breaking up the ball but all I saw in the game was death balls. If the game was scripted, they did a horrible job, and if it wasn't, then they've done a poor job because David Kim isn't exactly a slouch as a player.
I don't know what kind of play level you are expecting. There are no GM / Code S HotS players to produce a battle report. This is a couple of guys (gals?) giving you a sneak preview of the new units/game mechanics.
Showing all the new mechanics obviously taxes the players' ability to perform the traditional WoL tasks, like the lack of splitting which you are so annoyed with. I think most people can see there will be more opportunities to multitask and put supply in different locations, which will break apart the 'ball' to a degree.
Not that there is anything wrong with being a baller...
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On August 14 2012 12:38 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:37 Whitewing wrote:On August 14 2012 12:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:24 MCDayC wrote:
Also yeah, marauder hellion all ins do look like they will be suuuper powerful now, that may need a change. Actually the first TvP build I tried at the MLG demo was a Hellion/Marauder rush. Mothership Core shut it down so hard I literally laughed out loud. No but seriously, good luck EVER rushing a Protoss when Mothership Cores are on the field. Ehhhh, it shouldn't be that bad, buff only lasts 20 seconds, just back out of range for the 20 seconds, or hit someplace else (get a medivac out and drop, mothership core can't be in two places at once), or any number of other things. Hell, if the protoss just recalled, counter attacks should be great, he can't use it. My point is that with the Mothership Core in the mix, Protoss can hold off virtually any rush with just a handful of gateway units.
Lol. Just go back in 20 seconds.
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On August 14 2012 13:45 Scrubwave wrote:
Any thoughts on (old news) protoss being able to make units instantly almost anywhere on the map and now with the ability to recall them in case he over-commits etc?
Recall costs 150 out of 200 max energy on the Mothership Core.
Meaning, a Protoss player will have to save up energy to be able to use recall, and can only use it once. If he's been using the Core to energize casters or structures, or has used it recently for its purify ability it won't be able to use recall.
So if a Protoss player recalls his army at any point it's because he was saving energy just in case he needed to at some point which is a tactical decision I'm ok with them having.
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[Insert sweeping conclusions about balance and game design based on one game featuring sub-optimal builds, compositions, and engagements]
I'm smart, right?
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On August 14 2012 13:52 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:37 Whitewing wrote:On August 14 2012 12:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:24 MCDayC wrote:
Also yeah, marauder hellion all ins do look like they will be suuuper powerful now, that may need a change. Actually the first TvP build I tried at the MLG demo was a Hellion/Marauder rush. Mothership Core shut it down so hard I literally laughed out loud. No but seriously, good luck EVER rushing a Protoss when Mothership Cores are on the field. Ehhhh, it shouldn't be that bad, buff only lasts 20 seconds, just back out of range for the 20 seconds, or hit someplace else (get a medivac out and drop, mothership core can't be in two places at once), or any number of other things. Hell, if the protoss just recalled, counter attacks should be great, he can't use it. My point is that with the Mothership Core in the mix, Protoss can hold off virtually any rush with just a handful of gateway units. Lol. Just go back in 20 seconds.
Hey, 20 seconds makes a lot of difference in SC2.
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On the plus side, zerg still looks good. that's all something we can agree on.
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On August 14 2012 13:07 Zrana wrote:
[The battle hellions i kinda like but i still wonder if mech would actually work at all against a simple immo/zealot composition, especially if the toss gets a flank off.
Probably not ... because the important mech units cant be hastened by a reactor and Hellions alone are junk and only good for some harrass.
I really hope they get rid of the scripted concept of the battle reports an give us a "real" game between two pros instead ... like they did before WoL at Blizzcon. Too bad they scrapped that this year. The style of commentary (which I name "for six year olds") is pretty terrible.
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On August 14 2012 13:45 Scrubwave wrote:
Any thoughts on (old news) protoss being able to make units instantly almost anywhere on the map and now with the ability to recall them in case he over-commits etc?
I think it's stupid how protoss can mass recall so early in the game. They can be aggressively careless with their army and just recall it back and their fine. Pretty much you can have a good army position vs him and then he just recalls out. I still am praying this gets changed, recall should be a later game tactic not an early game.
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In regards to the new units, I think the warhound is unecessary. It is too easy to use, and is also trying to fill a role already being filled. The new hellion alone makes mech viable, and tanks already WRECK (all caps bolded for emphasis) most mechanical units by the virtue that they are usually armored.
I think Blizzard should probably add a micro-intensive skill unit to the mech composition in place of the warhound, akin to the viper, or the infestor. Of course, this unit shouldn't be good enough (or have abilities designed in such a way as) to completely remove positioning from the equation, as positioning is one of the core aspects of mech. It should give mech a higher skill cap and make it more fun for spectators (and many players).
As it stands, it seems that mech TvP is going to be one of the easier matchups, which is not so good since many of the other matchups are getting their skill-cap increased.
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On August 14 2012 11:46 FinestHour wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 11:44 Aratan wrote:On August 14 2012 11:42 Silentness wrote:
Am I the only one that feels like were being trolled by the new "destructible rocks". They literally blow up into MORE got damn rocks. I know someone joked about Blizzard making destructible rocks under more rocks, but they are seriously thinking it's a good idea. Hopefully they change their minds and remove it during the actual game release. Hah i was thinking the same thing. Destroy 500 life rocks, new 2000 life rocks spawn I HEARD YOU LIKE ROCKS SO WE PUT ROCKS IN YOUR ROCKS SO YOU CA-
Post of the year. I thought it was kind of funny that the Terran was trying to stutter-step micro his mech and it wasn't even close to possible... like he was fighting old habits or something. I didn't really see much to be super-excited about in that video. The only thing that really excites me about HOTS is that it will reset the pros and the Kespa pro's will be on near even footing with GOM guys... so thats the bright side. Outside o' that... I'll just wait till its really released.
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On August 14 2012 13:43 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:34 Fyrewolf wrote:On August 14 2012 13:25 eviltomahawk wrote:On August 14 2012 13:14 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 13:10 Velocirapture wrote:On August 14 2012 12:58 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:50 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:49 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:44 johnny123 wrote:
[quote]
I am correcting this for you, 37.5 seconds to build because the chronoboost will be unlimited. First of all, chrono does not half the time... Secondly, chrono is meant to compete with Mules+Inject larva. So if you use your chrono purely for Tempests, then you aren't using them for anything else. mothership core disagrees. ... I don't know what's the best way to convince you. How about the Liquidpedia? Chronoboost reduces 10s build time every 20s. (So basically 1 chronoboost = 0.6 probe). The best you can get is a 33% reduction in build time. 75s -> 50s NOT 75s -> 37.5s how else to convince you ? you seem stupid. God .. as i said, the chronoboost will be unlimited because mothership core grants energy recharge .its low enough cooldown that it can permanently give a nexus unlimited energy to chronoboost. With unlimited energy to chronoboost, production is increased 50%. Which means 1/2 the time to build presuming you chrono it non stop. Your arguement is that you still think its wings of liberity and you are limited to limited amount of chronoboosts. I am saying that is not the case, mothership core disagrees. Now stop trying to prove something. You are wrong. Increasing production by 100% will reduce total build time by 50%. That means you can build twice as much stuff in the normal build time (100% increase). A 50% increase allows for the production of 50% more product in the normal build time. Thus a product will be made in 66% of the normal build time if fully chronoboosted. Or you can think of it as getting 150% normal product if a building is endlessly chronoboosted. If this concept continues to escape you, try not thinking about numbers and just envision it as a progress bar. well this is a damn face palm, i kinda see what the point is, its not actually double the speed because if it was then it would have to be 100%. I see. I cant believe since i been playing i always thought it meant twice the speed. Anyway , the point still stands, with unlimited chronoboost these so called useless "tempests" some of these guys like to say that will take to long to build will still come out pretty fast thanks to mothership core energy ability. However, constant Chronoboosting (especially a LOT of constant Chronoboosting) isn't exactly mechanically easy. The Chronoboost only lasts for 20 seconds (and these are SC2 seconds, so it's actually less than 20 real seconds), so "constantly chronoboosting" would require the player to move his screen back to base every 20 seconds, which seems mechanically strenuous. Plus, casting Energize would add a few clicks and screen movements to this process, which leaves little time for the player to do other things within this window of time that is less than 20 seconds. So you gain boosted production time for some buildings at the cost of actions and attention that could've been spent elsewhere. If that's too mechanically difficult then you obviously never played Brood War. Without automine you had to look back at your base to tell each individual worker to start mining or build something, and without mbs also go to every production facility individually to build units in that time frame, while trying to attack with those units and micro them. A Chronoboost is nothing compared to that. I'm not saying that it's too mechanically difficult. I'm saying that it's not exactly mechanically easy. Of course, the mechanical requirements for SC2 macro are nothing compared the mechanical requirements for BW macro. However, in both games there is a tradeoff when you focus more on babysitting your macro instead of being more active with your units, whether you are managing a ton of expansions and countless Gateways in BW or trying to constantly manage your Chronoboosts in SC2.
The macro mechanics and placing buildings are the only macro things you actually have to look at your base to do in SC2, you can do 90% of your macro while looking at your army now, the "tradeoff" is nowhere near comparable, not in the slightest.
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On August 14 2012 13:57 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
In regards to the new units, I think the warhound is unecessary. It is too easy to use, and is also trying to fill a role already being filled. The new hellion alone makes mech viable, and tanks already WRECK (all caps bolded for emphasis) most mechanical units by the virtue that they are usually armored.
I think Blizzard should probably add a micro-intensive skill unit to the mech composition in place of the warhound, akin to the viper, or the infestor. Of course, this unit shouldn't be good enough (or have abilities designed in such a way as) to completely remove positioning from the equation, as positioning is one of the core aspects of mech. It should give mech a higher skill cap and make it more fun for spectators (and many players).
As it stands, it seems that mech TvP is going to be one of the easier matchups, which is not so good since many of the other matchups are getting their skill-cap increased.
Well one of the main purposes of the Warhound is actually for it to be an Anti-Siege Tank unit, capable of rushing tank lines easier than bio can because it's beefier.
As for its role in the TvP match up, Mech doesn't have a unit quite like it, it's more similar to a Marauder than it is anything else, but it can't be healed by Medivacs and doesn't have stim which already makes it much different.
I think after playing in the alpha that Warhounds might be a little too strong right now especially considering their cost, but the unit design itself is something that will fit rather nicely into the mech playstyle once its been tuned a bit.
The Haywire missle in particular I think is too strong, it either needs a longer cooldown or reduced damage.
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On August 14 2012 13:56 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:45 Scrubwave wrote:
Any thoughts on (old news) protoss being able to make units instantly almost anywhere on the map and now with the ability to recall them in case he over-commits etc? I think it's stupid how protoss can mass recall so early in the game. They can be aggressively careless with their army and just recall it back and their fine. Pretty much you can have a good army position vs him and then he just recalls out. I still am praying this gets changed, recall should be a later game tactic not an early game.
Supposedly the recall is going to have an absurdly high energy cost, which eats into macro (chronoboosts by virtue of energize) and defensive capabilities (purify, energized energy based units, etc, etc). The energy cost also hurts the amount of times that you can actually recall. Basically, game-long recall spam is going to tear chunks out of other aspects of your game.
I think the recall will end up being like the Terran scan: nice to use when the opportunity arises, but in general, many people will want the energy spent elsewhere.
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I hate the new designs. They seem to be betraying BW in an attempt to distinguish this from it. I probably won't be buying this if the designs don't change.
I hate that they are axe'ing the Carrier, I think that the Tempest is too gimmicky. I think that the Oracle is cool, but also too gimmicky. PvT will turn into mass Phoenix into Tempests, you'll have a cloud of Phoenixes protecting super-range units, making more of a deathball. I really don't want Terran mech to be the new mass Roaches.
>> Build Warhounds >> Kill Protosses
The Viper seems incredibly strong for what it does. Zergs could easily swap out a couple of Infestors in their lategame to be even more untouchable. Couple that with the Mothership Nerf and Toss is even more screwed. Without a vortex Protoss can't get rid of GG Lords.
I don't see the Battlecruiser being used at either. There's no reason to use that over mass Viking even with the new overdrive. Terrans have miserable anti-air because the marines are just so good at it.
If you want to blow up the game and totally fuck WoL builds fine, but give us better and more dynamic options, not shit on top of shit.
That said, I went back and I watched the old battle reports from 2010, just to see where some differences were. Immortals used to be Gateway units. Protoss used to have a pylon that increased mining from probes. Infestors used to be able to Neural from underground. Tech paths and attachments were changed all over the place. It was hysterical how broken that was. It'll probably get better, because it can't get much worse.
It would just be so cool if Blizzard brought in top players for their design advice. Publicly. Working with the community would be such a good way to drag their image out of the crapper where it is right now.
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On August 14 2012 13:58 BoZiffer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 11:46 FinestHour wrote:On August 14 2012 11:44 Aratan wrote:On August 14 2012 11:42 Silentness wrote:
Am I the only one that feels like were being trolled by the new "destructible rocks". They literally blow up into MORE got damn rocks. I know someone joked about Blizzard making destructible rocks under more rocks, but they are seriously thinking it's a good idea. Hopefully they change their minds and remove it during the actual game release. Hah i was thinking the same thing. Destroy 500 life rocks, new 2000 life rocks spawn I HEARD YOU LIKE ROCKS SO WE PUT ROCKS IN YOUR ROCKS SO YOU CA- Post of the year. I thought it was kind of funny that the Terran was trying to stutter-step micro his mech and it wasn't even close to possible... like he was fighting old habits or something. I didn't really see much to be super-excited about in that video. The only thing that really excites me about HOTS is that it will reset the pros and the Kespa pro's will be on near even footing with GOM guys... so thats the bright side. Outside o' that... I'll just wait till its really released.
Mech vs Protoss wasn't ever micro intensive really in BW either outside of Vultures and yet the match up was still pretty damn exciting.
Just because you can't micro mech doesn't mean it won't be an exciting style to watch or play against Protoss. As for the stutter step aspect, yea you can't stutter step your way out of a bad engagement with Mech which is something you can do with Bio and considering your units are much more expensive it puts a heavy emphasis on scouting and positioning.
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On August 14 2012 14:02 Tel Maethor wrote:
I hate the new designs. They seem to be betraying BW in an attempt to distinguish this from it. I probably won't be buying this if the designs don't change.
I hate that they are axe'ing the Carrier, I think that the Tempest is too gimmicky. I think that the Oracle is cool, but also too gimmicky. PvT will turn into mass Phoenix into Tempests,
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Wut?
You know they haven't removed the Marine from the Terran army don't you? Just because you didn't see them in that Battle Report doesn't mean Terrans can't make them anymore.
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Northern Ireland23767 Posts
On August 14 2012 14:02 Tel Maethor wrote:
I hate the new designs. They seem to be betraying BW in an attempt to distinguish this from it. I probably won't be buying this if the designs don't change.
I hate that they are axe'ing the Carrier, I think that the Tempest is too gimmicky. I think that the Oracle is cool, but also too gimmicky. PvT will turn into mass Phoenix into Tempests, you'll have a cloud of Phoenixes protecting super-range units, making more of a deathball. I really don't want Terran mech to be the new mass Roaches.
>> Build Warhounds >> Kill Protosses
The Viper seems incredibly strong for what it does. Zergs could easily swap out a couple of Infestors in their lategame to be even more untouchable. Couple that with the Mothership Nerf and Toss is even more screwed. Without a vortex Protoss can't get rid of GG Lords.
I don't see the Battlecruiser being used at either. There's no reason to use that over mass Viking even with the new overdrive. Terrans have miserable anti-air because the marines are just so good at it.
If you want to blow up the game and totally fuck WoL builds fine, but give us better and more dynamic options, not shit on top of shit.
That said, I went back and I watched the old battle reports from 2010, just to see where some differences were. Immortals used to be Gateway units. Protoss used to have a pylon that increased mining from probes. Infestors used to be able to Neural from underground. Tech paths and attachments were changed all over the place. It was hysterical how broken that was. It'll probably get better, because it can't get much worse.
It would just be so cool if Blizzard brought in top players for their design advice. Publicly. Working with the community would be such a good way to drag their image out of the crapper where it is right now.
I'll be interested to see how Zerg works out. My instinctive feeling is that they look kind of powerful. I mean in the current build, of WoL Infestor's being such a catch-all unit is kind of accepted (albeit often lamented), given the Zerg race's paucity of anti-air options. With speed hydras looking pretty terrifying, and with vipers making positioning against BL/Infestor looking even more difficult, and Protoss not having the archon toilet I really wonder how it'll pan out
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On August 14 2012 14:02 Tel Maethor wrote:
I hate the new designs. They seem to be betraying BW in an attempt to distinguish this from it. I probably won't be buying this if the designs don't change.
I hate that they are axe'ing the Carrier, I think that the Tempest is too gimmicky. I think that the Oracle is cool, but also too gimmicky. PvT will turn into mass Phoenix into Tempests, you'll have a cloud of Phoenixes protecting super-range units, making more of a deathball. I really don't want Terran mech to be the new mass Roaches.
>> Build Warhounds >> Kill Protosses
The Viper seems incredibly strong for what it does. Zergs could easily swap out a couple of Infestors in their lategame to be even more untouchable. Couple that with the Mothership Nerf and Toss is even more screwed. Without a vortex Protoss can't get rid of GG Lords.
I don't see the Battlecruiser being used at either. There's no reason to use that over mass Viking even with the new overdrive. Terrans have miserable anti-air because the marines are just so good at it.
If you want to blow up the game and totally fuck WoL builds fine, but give us better and more dynamic options, not shit on top of shit.
That said, I went back and I watched the old battle reports from 2010, just to see where some differences were. Immortals used to be Gateway units. Protoss used to have a pylon that increased mining from probes. Infestors used to be able to Neural from underground. Tech paths and attachments were changed all over the place. It was hysterical how broken that was. It'll probably get better, because it can't get much worse.
It would just be so cool if Blizzard brought in top players for their design advice. Publicly. Working with the community would be such a good way to drag their image out of the crapper where it is right now.
I Love that last part. Please, blizzard, use your resources! I am sure that there are many unbiased, or at least fairly unbiased, pro players willing to help out with the competitive design.
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I don't think people should be so up in arms about anything in HotS right now. The game is still in an Alpha build, do you realize how far that is from an actual release point?
One thing I would love (even though it would probably be dumb), though it would never happen, is PvP with mass Tempest for both players. Though just thinking about it there are so many things that makes that next to impossible that it makes me sad.
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Pretty much agree with the negative feedback. Worst ability is by far entomb, god it's so stupid and spectator unfriendly. And about the tempest/purify, they can be countered by pdd I guess ????
The viking issue remains: terran is very vulnerable to tech switch because it's the only race with a normal production mechanic. Having to rely on vikings so much as AA is pure bs. What about having a weaker anti-ground thor but with better anti-air ?
And the Warhound is crazy ugly, change this crap as soon as possible.
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EPT
