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Northern Ireland23767 Posts
On August 14 2012 13:19 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:11 Sroobz wrote:On August 14 2012 13:06 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2012 13:01 bittman wrote:On August 14 2012 12:42 Belha wrote:
Agree with the "making easier terran instead of making harder for the other races" statement. Right now the b-hellioin+warhound combination can take appart most ground P army with pure 1a, plus hellion harass potential. I agree that T needs a lategame buff, but i'm pretty sure that is not the way. Sort of appears that way. Mech was already pretty strong in TvP, but the issue was that hellions didn't hold a line between zealots and tanks for long enough. Battle hellions by themselves almost alone could potentially help mech be viable in the highest levels of TvP. I don't get the warhound. It fills like it feels the niche of needing a faster, energyless, attack-move unit which gets mech upgrades. Spoiler: it's not a niche. It's simply a less expensive, faster, energyless Thor that doesn't shoot up. I'm concerned I'll miss this unit called a Thor =( And yeah, agree with the overall statement of the theme. I wish they made more units which can demonstrate a high level of skill. I still think the Oracle, Viper and Mothership Core are in the right direction. Everything for terran though I'm not terribly interested in. Who knows though, I'm looking forward to being surprised, but I just don't want to see anymore "simple units" (Collosus) or useless units (Hydras). Give me more complexity! You're actually compeltely missing what Blizzard is doing with Terran. Terran's the race that actually benefits the most from micro right now, with terran bio being the most standard unit composition across all match ups. Terran doesn't have the option that the other races have to just sit back and macro and make a big army you can move out with. Zerg has that in the Infestor/Broodlord unit composition and Protoss has that in the deathball, are you going to sit and tell me that every Zerg that turtles straight into Infestor/Broodlord lacks skill or that Protoss takes no skill to play? No, because there's a lot more to it than that. With mech being viable, Terrans have an option in which style of Terran they'd rather play. Slower more macro and positional oriented or Bio which benefits (and still will benefit) from aggression, multitasking and unit micromanagement. For Protoss and Zerg they are adding in units that are supposed to have that higher skill cap in the Viper and Swarm Host you can two units you can't just a-move but rather have to be very careful in how you use lest you lose them immediately. So in Blizzard's mind, Terran is already the "high skill cap" race. Everyone for the most part already realizes this. What they're doing in Heart of the Swarm is opening the race up a bit and giving players more ways to play it. This is just stupid. They should make Terran units that keep the Terran skill ceiling where it is instead of lowering it. And then they should have made Toss and Zerg units that raise their respective skill ceilings to the level of terran micro. They aren't lowering the skill ceiling of Bio, that is staying where it is. They are giving Terrans the option to play a different style that has a different set of skill demands, so that every Terran that plays doesn't HAVE to practice for hours a day how to Marine split in order to defeat Zergs, or HAVE to practice multi-pronged drop play in order to beat Protoss. Those that can and that want to, can still do that and still obtain the results, but for the rest of the Terran playerbase that either can't or don't enjoy being FORCED to play that way, Blizzard is adding an alternative. Again, it requires a DIFFERENT set of skills, doesn't mean that it requires less skill, just a different set. To get an idea of what I mean try playing a ton of TvT and try mastering both Bio and Mech TvT playstyles, I can guarantee you that one of those styles will feel more natural to you, but I cannot tell you which one. Why? Because they are different but equal in the TvT match up. Which is very different from the other two match ups where Bio is clearly better in nearly all situations especially in the late game. If Blizzard manages to do that in HOTS with every Terran match up, that will be an enormous success in my book.
You know what, despite my angry, angry mood this was a good post. Shall wait and see how things develop from hereon-in
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On August 14 2012 13:14 johnny123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:10 Velocirapture wrote:On August 14 2012 12:58 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:50 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:49 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:44 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 10:56 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 10:55 trifecta wrote:On August 14 2012 10:53 ntssauce wrote:
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the tempest seems interesting... you can lay siege to a terran/zerg like terran does in TvT.... just camp with your army under the tempest and slowly pull the opp appart :D! so now toss has their broodlord It does the DPS of a Roach, costs 300/300/6, and takes 75 seconds to build. Wouldn't get your hopes up. I am correcting this for you, 37.5 seconds to build because the chronoboost will be unlimited. First of all, chrono does not half the time... Secondly, chrono is meant to compete with Mules+Inject larva. So if you use your chrono purely for Tempests, then you aren't using them for anything else. mothership core disagrees. ... I don't know what's the best way to convince you. How about the Liquidpedia? Chronoboost reduces 10s build time every 20s. (So basically 1 chronoboost = 0.6 probe). The best you can get is a 33% reduction in build time. 75s -> 50s NOT 75s -> 37.5s how else to convince you ? you seem stupid. God .. as i said, the chronoboost will be unlimited because mothership core grants energy recharge .its low enough cooldown that it can permanently give a nexus unlimited energy to chronoboost. With unlimited energy to chronoboost, production is increased 50%. Which means 1/2 the time to build presuming you chrono it non stop. Your arguement is that you still think its wings of liberity and you are limited to limited amount of chronoboosts. I am saying that is not the case, mothership core disagrees. Now stop trying to prove something. You are wrong. Increasing production by 100% will reduce total build time by 50%. That means you can build twice as much stuff in the normal build time (100% increase). A 50% increase allows for the production of 50% more product in the normal build time. Thus a product will be made in 66% of the normal build time if fully chronoboosted. Or you can think of it as getting 150% normal product if a building is endlessly chronoboosted. If this concept continues to escape you, try not thinking about numbers and just envision it as a progress bar. well this is a damn face palm, i kinda see what the point is, its not actually double the speed because if it was then it would have to be 100%. I see. I cant believe since i been playing i always thought it meant twice the speed. Anyway , the point still stands, with unlimited chronoboost these so called useless "tempests" some of these guys like to say that will take to long to build will still come out pretty fast thanks to mothership core energy ability.
However, constant Chronoboosting (especially a LOT of constant Chronoboosting) isn't exactly mechanically easy. The Chronoboost only lasts for 20 seconds (and these are SC2 seconds, so it's actually less than 20 real seconds), so "constantly chronoboosting" would require the player to move his screen back to base every 20 seconds, which seems mechanically strenuous. Plus, casting Energize would add a few clicks and screen movements to this process, which leaves little time for the player to do other things within this window of time that is less than 20 seconds.
So you gain boosted production time for some buildings at the cost of actions and attention that could've been spent elsewhere.
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I saw sim city and rock crushing for 10 mins, followed by microless a-move for the rest of the game. How exactly is any of this making the game better?
They talked so much about breaking up the ball but all I saw in the game was death balls. If the game was scripted, they did a horrible job, and if it wasn't, then they've done a poor job because David Kim isn't exactly a slouch as a player.
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On August 14 2012 13:01 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:42 Belha wrote:
Agree with the "making easier terran instead of making harder for the other races" statement. Right now the b-hellioin+warhound combination can take appart most ground P army with pure 1a, plus hellion harass potential. I agree that T needs a lategame buff, but i'm pretty sure that is not the way. Sort of appears that way. Mech was already pretty strong in TvP, but the issue was that hellions didn't hold a line between zealots and tanks for long enough. Battle hellions by themselves almost alone could potentially help mech be viable in the highest levels of TvP. I don't get the warhound. It fills like it feels the niche of needing a faster, energyless, attack-move unit which gets mech upgrades. Spoiler: it's not a niche. It's simply a less expensive, faster, energyless Thor that doesn't shoot up. I'm concerned I'll miss this unit called a Thor =( And yeah, agree with the overall statement of the theme. I wish they made more units which can demonstrate a high level of skill. I still think the Oracle, Viper and Mothership Core are in the right direction. Everything for terran though I'm not terribly interested in. Who knows though, I'm looking forward to being surprised, but I just don't want to see anymore "simple units" (Collosus) or useless units (Hydras). Give me more complexity!
to me it seems like the warhound is a terran colossus (but only works against protoss). A big 1 a unit that does enormous damage. Seems like its sole purpose is to make terran easier to play. Although I would be interested in seeing how those armies stacked up if toss actually had late game units like colossus or storms, instead of tempest. Adding their own splash might make a huge difference, so we'll have to see. That said, I would rather they just removed colossus and warhound all together. (also not sure why people are complaining about 1a, when 90% of the units in the game are 1 a units).
Oracles just seem kinda gimmicky, i would bet it gets nerfed or removed. Mass recall will get nerfed, without question. He didnt really use it in that game to its full effect, but it will happen.
But theres really no need to get worked up until we see real unit compositions and a real games.
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On August 14 2012 13:19 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:11 Sroobz wrote:On August 14 2012 13:06 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2012 13:01 bittman wrote:On August 14 2012 12:42 Belha wrote:
Agree with the "making easier terran instead of making harder for the other races" statement. Right now the b-hellioin+warhound combination can take appart most ground P army with pure 1a, plus hellion harass potential. I agree that T needs a lategame buff, but i'm pretty sure that is not the way. Sort of appears that way. Mech was already pretty strong in TvP, but the issue was that hellions didn't hold a line between zealots and tanks for long enough. Battle hellions by themselves almost alone could potentially help mech be viable in the highest levels of TvP. I don't get the warhound. It fills like it feels the niche of needing a faster, energyless, attack-move unit which gets mech upgrades. Spoiler: it's not a niche. It's simply a less expensive, faster, energyless Thor that doesn't shoot up. I'm concerned I'll miss this unit called a Thor =( And yeah, agree with the overall statement of the theme. I wish they made more units which can demonstrate a high level of skill. I still think the Oracle, Viper and Mothership Core are in the right direction. Everything for terran though I'm not terribly interested in. Who knows though, I'm looking forward to being surprised, but I just don't want to see anymore "simple units" (Collosus) or useless units (Hydras). Give me more complexity! You're actually compeltely missing what Blizzard is doing with Terran. Terran's the race that actually benefits the most from micro right now, with terran bio being the most standard unit composition across all match ups. Terran doesn't have the option that the other races have to just sit back and macro and make a big army you can move out with. Zerg has that in the Infestor/Broodlord unit composition and Protoss has that in the deathball, are you going to sit and tell me that every Zerg that turtles straight into Infestor/Broodlord lacks skill or that Protoss takes no skill to play? No, because there's a lot more to it than that. With mech being viable, Terrans have an option in which style of Terran they'd rather play. Slower more macro and positional oriented or Bio which benefits (and still will benefit) from aggression, multitasking and unit micromanagement. For Protoss and Zerg they are adding in units that are supposed to have that higher skill cap in the Viper and Swarm Host you can two units you can't just a-move but rather have to be very careful in how you use lest you lose them immediately. So in Blizzard's mind, Terran is already the "high skill cap" race. Everyone for the most part already realizes this. What they're doing in Heart of the Swarm is opening the race up a bit and giving players more ways to play it. This is just stupid. They should make Terran units that keep the Terran skill ceiling where it is instead of lowering it. And then they should have made Toss and Zerg units that raise their respective skill ceilings to the level of terran micro. They aren't lowering the skill ceiling of Bio, that is staying where it is. They are giving Terrans the option to play a different style that has a different set of skill demands, so that every Terran that plays doesn't HAVE to practice for hours a day how to Marine split in order to defeat Zergs, or HAVE to practice multi-pronged drop play in order to beat Protoss. Those that can and that want to, can still do that and still obtain the results, but for the rest of the Terran playerbase that either can't or don't enjoy being FORCED to play that way, Blizzard is adding an alternative. Again, it requires a DIFFERENT set of skills, doesn't mean that it requires less skill, just a different set. To get an idea of what I mean try playing a ton of TvT and try mastering both Bio and Mech TvT playstyles, I can guarantee you that one of those styles will feel more natural to you, but I cannot tell you which one. Why? Because they are different but equal in the TvT match up. Which is very different from the other two match ups where Bio is clearly better in nearly all situations especially in the late game. If Blizzard manages to do that in HOTS with every Terran match up, that will be an enormous success in my book.
Ya exactly, I think some people are misunderstand what they're doing in Heart of the Swarm. At least from what I know (I might be forgetting something) they are basically just adding new units and unit abilities to the game. All the strategies pre HOTS will not really be affected much at all, they are just giving people more options and fixing some of the very obvious holes in some of the races. Plus on another note, just think of how long it took for some of the current WoL strategies to develop, just give things time, I don't see how adding more strategies and units to a game would ever be a bad thing.
**Btw, that warhound looks so OP lol, is it basically like a terran version of the immortal? I can't wait to test out warhound builds :D
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On August 14 2012 13:30 Darpa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:01 bittman wrote:On August 14 2012 12:42 Belha wrote:
Agree with the "making easier terran instead of making harder for the other races" statement. Right now the b-hellioin+warhound combination can take appart most ground P army with pure 1a, plus hellion harass potential. I agree that T needs a lategame buff, but i'm pretty sure that is not the way. Sort of appears that way. Mech was already pretty strong in TvP, but the issue was that hellions didn't hold a line between zealots and tanks for long enough. Battle hellions by themselves almost alone could potentially help mech be viable in the highest levels of TvP. I don't get the warhound. It fills like it feels the niche of needing a faster, energyless, attack-move unit which gets mech upgrades. Spoiler: it's not a niche. It's simply a less expensive, faster, energyless Thor that doesn't shoot up. I'm concerned I'll miss this unit called a Thor =( And yeah, agree with the overall statement of the theme. I wish they made more units which can demonstrate a high level of skill. I still think the Oracle, Viper and Mothership Core are in the right direction. Everything for terran though I'm not terribly interested in. Who knows though, I'm looking forward to being surprised, but I just don't want to see anymore "simple units" (Collosus) or useless units (Hydras). Give me more complexity! to me it seems like the warhound is a terran colossus (but only works against protoss). A big 1 a unit that does enormous damage. Seems like its sole purpose is to make terran easier to play. Although I would be interested in seeing how those armies stacked up if toss actually had late game units like colossus or storms, instead of tempest. Adding their own splash might make a huge difference, so we'll have to see. That said, I would rather they just removed colossus and warhound all together. (also not sure why people are complaining about 1a, when 90% of the units in the game are 1 a units). Oracles just seem kinda gimmicky, i would bet it gets nerfed or removed. Mass recall will get nerfed, without question. He didnt really use it in that game to its full effect, but it will happen. But theres really no need to get worked up until we see real unit compositions and a real games.
The warhound seems more like a terran version of the immortal, the warhound doesnt attack air and doesn't do splash damage right?
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On August 14 2012 13:28 vesicular wrote:
I saw sim city and rock crushing for 10 mins, followed by microless a-move for the rest of the game. How exactly is any of this making the game better?
They talked so much about breaking up the ball but all I saw in the game was death balls. If the game was scripted, they did a horrible job, and if it wasn't, then they've done a poor job because David Kim isn't exactly a slouch as a player.
The battle report isn't scripted, but they do have high points they want hit. If anything, I bet they play 5 games where they try to show off all the new abilities and units, pick the most back and forth one, and cast it. But who knows. All this does is make me want to try out some of the new units and see how they work.
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In terms of skill ceiling what we want are units that are:
1. Easy to use
2. Difficult to master
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this game just looked boring and bad. the only unit that I am excited about at all is the battle hellion. Blizzard definitely could have done better with designing new terran units.
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On August 14 2012 13:25 bubblegumbo wrote:
After seeing the ridiculously stupid A move long range unit that is the Tempest (again) and seeing the protoss nexus core having such ridiculous range for a defensive unit, I'm glad I am not a Terran tester. I don't understand what Blizzard was thinking showing Terran players this video. Anyone with competent RTS understanding would know that the Terran only won because he was actually making units while the protoss was not, instead he was using his tempests like the way a bronze zerg player would use his broodlords. The Warhounds appeared to be completely worthless vs air that whole match, I thought they are suppose to replace Thors as ground to air too?
What happened in that TvP matchup could've been done with Bioball blobs, especially with the usual dropship harass at expansions.
pretty sure they removed warhound ground to air attack which im pissed about, I want the thor gone
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I wish I could play that style of mech vs protoss right now, gosh I'm having severe difficulties with current tvp, I can't wait for HOTS!!
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On August 14 2012 13:31 Secret05 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:30 Darpa wrote:On August 14 2012 13:01 bittman wrote:On August 14 2012 12:42 Belha wrote:
Agree with the "making easier terran instead of making harder for the other races" statement. Right now the b-hellioin+warhound combination can take appart most ground P army with pure 1a, plus hellion harass potential. I agree that T needs a lategame buff, but i'm pretty sure that is not the way. Sort of appears that way. Mech was already pretty strong in TvP, but the issue was that hellions didn't hold a line between zealots and tanks for long enough. Battle hellions by themselves almost alone could potentially help mech be viable in the highest levels of TvP. I don't get the warhound. It fills like it feels the niche of needing a faster, energyless, attack-move unit which gets mech upgrades. Spoiler: it's not a niche. It's simply a less expensive, faster, energyless Thor that doesn't shoot up. I'm concerned I'll miss this unit called a Thor =( And yeah, agree with the overall statement of the theme. I wish they made more units which can demonstrate a high level of skill. I still think the Oracle, Viper and Mothership Core are in the right direction. Everything for terran though I'm not terribly interested in. Who knows though, I'm looking forward to being surprised, but I just don't want to see anymore "simple units" (Collosus) or useless units (Hydras). Give me more complexity! to me it seems like the warhound is a terran colossus (but only works against protoss). A big 1 a unit that does enormous damage. Seems like its sole purpose is to make terran easier to play. Although I would be interested in seeing how those armies stacked up if toss actually had late game units like colossus or storms, instead of tempest. Adding their own splash might make a huge difference, so we'll have to see. That said, I would rather they just removed colossus and warhound all together. (also not sure why people are complaining about 1a, when 90% of the units in the game are 1 a units). Oracles just seem kinda gimmicky, i would bet it gets nerfed or removed. Mass recall will get nerfed, without question. He didnt really use it in that game to its full effect, but it will happen. But theres really no need to get worked up until we see real unit compositions and a real games. The warhound seems more like a terran version of the immortal, the warhound doesnt attack air and doesn't do splash damage right?
As long at the unit has as many weaknesses as the immortal, I think it will be fine. I like the ability to shut off the haywire missile and trigger it when mechanical units get into range.
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On August 14 2012 13:25 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:14 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 13:10 Velocirapture wrote:On August 14 2012 12:58 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:50 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:49 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:44 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 10:56 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 10:55 trifecta wrote:
[quote]
so now toss has their broodlord It does the DPS of a Roach, costs 300/300/6, and takes 75 seconds to build. Wouldn't get your hopes up. I am correcting this for you, 37.5 seconds to build because the chronoboost will be unlimited. First of all, chrono does not half the time... Secondly, chrono is meant to compete with Mules+Inject larva. So if you use your chrono purely for Tempests, then you aren't using them for anything else. mothership core disagrees. ... I don't know what's the best way to convince you. How about the Liquidpedia? Chronoboost reduces 10s build time every 20s. (So basically 1 chronoboost = 0.6 probe). The best you can get is a 33% reduction in build time. 75s -> 50s NOT 75s -> 37.5s how else to convince you ? you seem stupid. God .. as i said, the chronoboost will be unlimited because mothership core grants energy recharge .its low enough cooldown that it can permanently give a nexus unlimited energy to chronoboost. With unlimited energy to chronoboost, production is increased 50%. Which means 1/2 the time to build presuming you chrono it non stop. Your arguement is that you still think its wings of liberity and you are limited to limited amount of chronoboosts. I am saying that is not the case, mothership core disagrees. Now stop trying to prove something. You are wrong. Increasing production by 100% will reduce total build time by 50%. That means you can build twice as much stuff in the normal build time (100% increase). A 50% increase allows for the production of 50% more product in the normal build time. Thus a product will be made in 66% of the normal build time if fully chronoboosted. Or you can think of it as getting 150% normal product if a building is endlessly chronoboosted. If this concept continues to escape you, try not thinking about numbers and just envision it as a progress bar. well this is a damn face palm, i kinda see what the point is, its not actually double the speed because if it was then it would have to be 100%. I see. I cant believe since i been playing i always thought it meant twice the speed. Anyway , the point still stands, with unlimited chronoboost these so called useless "tempests" some of these guys like to say that will take to long to build will still come out pretty fast thanks to mothership core energy ability. However, constant Chronoboosting (especially a LOT of constant Chronoboosting) isn't exactly mechanically easy. The Chronoboost only lasts for 20 seconds (and these are SC2 seconds, so it's actually less than 20 real seconds), so "constantly chronoboosting" would require the player to move his screen back to base every 20 seconds, which seems mechanically strenuous. Plus, casting Energize would add a few clicks and screen movements to this process, which leaves little time for the player to do other things within this window of time that is less than 20 seconds. So you gain boosted production time for some buildings at the cost of actions and attention that could've been spent elsewhere.
If that's too mechanically difficult then you obviously never played Brood War. Without automine you had to look back at your base to tell each individual worker to start mining or build something, and without mbs also go to every production facility individually to build units in that time frame, while trying to attack with those units and micro them. A Chronoboost is nothing compared to that.
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On August 14 2012 13:32 SarcasmMonster wrote:
In terms of skill ceiling what we want are units that are:
1. Easy to use
2. Difficult to master
That kinda stuff is lost on people. The game GO has two pieces and one basic rule, yet is one of the most complex games every created. People forget that we didn't know how powerful marines were until MKP, or fauxer at the time, showed us that how powerful they could really be. Until the pros cut their teeth on these units, we won't know a thing about them.
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On August 14 2012 13:32 artosismermaid wrote:
this game just looked boring and bad. the only unit that I am excited about at all is the battle hellion. Blizzard definitely could have done better with designing new terran units.
Well part of the the problem was the map I think. Play that on a bigger fan favorite map and I think it would've seemed better. Also, I don't know I anyone has been talking about this, but the battle hellion and the warhound models seem under par compared to other unit designs. Also, when the terran was moving out the warhound and battle hellions looked too similar for some reason (just appearance that is). The army almost looked like this big ball of mush and was hard to distinguish specific units. Some of this had to do with the warhound and battle hellion looking too similar and some of this had to do with their specific artistic designs. Something needs to be tweaked with their models, you guys know what I'm saying? Or am I seeing things? If you see the same thing, what do you think needs to be changed about their models?
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What's wierd is I felt pretty hopeful after the demo at MLG. It seemed like a lot of new interesting changes.
Admittedly it's still miles from BW and some things look design wise stupid but it seems like it might be salvagably as good as WoL.
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On August 14 2012 13:34 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:25 eviltomahawk wrote:On August 14 2012 13:14 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 13:10 Velocirapture wrote:On August 14 2012 12:58 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:50 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:49 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:44 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 10:56 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
It does the DPS of a Roach, costs 300/300/6, and takes 75 seconds to build. Wouldn't get your hopes up. I am correcting this for you, 37.5 seconds to build because the chronoboost will be unlimited. First of all, chrono does not half the time... Secondly, chrono is meant to compete with Mules+Inject larva. So if you use your chrono purely for Tempests, then you aren't using them for anything else. mothership core disagrees. ... I don't know what's the best way to convince you. How about the Liquidpedia? Chronoboost reduces 10s build time every 20s. (So basically 1 chronoboost = 0.6 probe). The best you can get is a 33% reduction in build time. 75s -> 50s NOT 75s -> 37.5s how else to convince you ? you seem stupid. God .. as i said, the chronoboost will be unlimited because mothership core grants energy recharge .its low enough cooldown that it can permanently give a nexus unlimited energy to chronoboost. With unlimited energy to chronoboost, production is increased 50%. Which means 1/2 the time to build presuming you chrono it non stop. Your arguement is that you still think its wings of liberity and you are limited to limited amount of chronoboosts. I am saying that is not the case, mothership core disagrees. Now stop trying to prove something. You are wrong. Increasing production by 100% will reduce total build time by 50%. That means you can build twice as much stuff in the normal build time (100% increase). A 50% increase allows for the production of 50% more product in the normal build time. Thus a product will be made in 66% of the normal build time if fully chronoboosted. Or you can think of it as getting 150% normal product if a building is endlessly chronoboosted. If this concept continues to escape you, try not thinking about numbers and just envision it as a progress bar. well this is a damn face palm, i kinda see what the point is, its not actually double the speed because if it was then it would have to be 100%. I see. I cant believe since i been playing i always thought it meant twice the speed. Anyway , the point still stands, with unlimited chronoboost these so called useless "tempests" some of these guys like to say that will take to long to build will still come out pretty fast thanks to mothership core energy ability. However, constant Chronoboosting (especially a LOT of constant Chronoboosting) isn't exactly mechanically easy. The Chronoboost only lasts for 20 seconds (and these are SC2 seconds, so it's actually less than 20 real seconds), so "constantly chronoboosting" would require the player to move his screen back to base every 20 seconds, which seems mechanically strenuous. Plus, casting Energize would add a few clicks and screen movements to this process, which leaves little time for the player to do other things within this window of time that is less than 20 seconds. So you gain boosted production time for some buildings at the cost of actions and attention that could've been spent elsewhere. If that's too mechanically difficult then you obviously never played Brood War. Without automine you had to look back at your base to tell each individual worker to start mining or build something, and without mbs also go to every production facility individually to build units in that time frame, while trying to attack with those units and micro them. A Chronoboost is nothing compared to that.
I'm not saying that it's too mechanically difficult. I'm saying that it's not exactly mechanically easy. Of course, the mechanical requirements for SC2 macro are nothing compared the mechanical requirements for BW macro. However, in both games there is a tradeoff when you focus more on babysitting your macro instead of being more active with your units, whether you are managing a ton of expansions and countless Gateways in BW or trying to constantly manage your Chronoboosts in SC2.
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On August 14 2012 13:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:31 Secret05 wrote:On August 14 2012 13:30 Darpa wrote:On August 14 2012 13:01 bittman wrote:On August 14 2012 12:42 Belha wrote:
Agree with the "making easier terran instead of making harder for the other races" statement. Right now the b-hellioin+warhound combination can take appart most ground P army with pure 1a, plus hellion harass potential. I agree that T needs a lategame buff, but i'm pretty sure that is not the way. Sort of appears that way. Mech was already pretty strong in TvP, but the issue was that hellions didn't hold a line between zealots and tanks for long enough. Battle hellions by themselves almost alone could potentially help mech be viable in the highest levels of TvP. I don't get the warhound. It fills like it feels the niche of needing a faster, energyless, attack-move unit which gets mech upgrades. Spoiler: it's not a niche. It's simply a less expensive, faster, energyless Thor that doesn't shoot up. I'm concerned I'll miss this unit called a Thor =( And yeah, agree with the overall statement of the theme. I wish they made more units which can demonstrate a high level of skill. I still think the Oracle, Viper and Mothership Core are in the right direction. Everything for terran though I'm not terribly interested in. Who knows though, I'm looking forward to being surprised, but I just don't want to see anymore "simple units" (Collosus) or useless units (Hydras). Give me more complexity! to me it seems like the warhound is a terran colossus (but only works against protoss). A big 1 a unit that does enormous damage. Seems like its sole purpose is to make terran easier to play. Although I would be interested in seeing how those armies stacked up if toss actually had late game units like colossus or storms, instead of tempest. Adding their own splash might make a huge difference, so we'll have to see. That said, I would rather they just removed colossus and warhound all together. (also not sure why people are complaining about 1a, when 90% of the units in the game are 1 a units). Oracles just seem kinda gimmicky, i would bet it gets nerfed or removed. Mass recall will get nerfed, without question. He didnt really use it in that game to its full effect, but it will happen. But theres really no need to get worked up until we see real unit compositions and a real games. The warhound seems more like a terran version of the immortal, the warhound doesnt attack air and doesn't do splash damage right? As long at the unit has as many weaknesses as the immortal, I think it will be fine. I like the ability to shut off the haywire missile and trigger it when mechanical units get into range.
You can shut off the auto-cast on the Haywire Missle, it starts with it on autocast though so you have to manually turn it off.
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On August 14 2012 13:07 Zrana wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:27 yeastiality wrote:On August 14 2012 12:26 ZAiNs wrote:On August 14 2012 12:24 MCDayC wrote:
Also yeah, marauder hellion all ins do look like they will be suuuper powerful now, that may need a change. The Mothership Core Cannon will help dealing with these kind of attacks so much. Bunkers in your main base will also be easy to deal with. so the things that made people like boxer famous and proved how deep starcraft is...will be neutered by triggering one ability? well, can't say there's no precedent for it I see your fungal and raise you stasis field :p But on topic: The battle hellions i kinda like but i still wonder if mech would actually work at all against a simple immo/zealot composition, especially if the toss gets a flank off. The warhound I just don't get the point of it. What is it's purpose? You aren't gonna make warhounds vs zerg because zerg isnt going to go roach vs warhounds - and even if they do, tanks will serve the same purpose but with more range and AoE. In PvT stalkers are easy pickings for sieged up tanks anyway, and immortals will take the same damage from a tank as from a warhound. In TvT maybe they will be useful but at the moment i can only imagine two scenarios for TvT; only warhounds or none at all. In fact many of the units seem to be added for the sake of adding units rather than for any real reason or purpose. So far the ony changes that make me go, "oh that's cool" are the Viper, Ultralisk charge and the Mothership Core.
haywire from warhounds bypass harden shields on immortals. The high range also allows them to snipe colossus and sentries.
Sure, tanks can do some of the jobs. But tanks are incredibly slow and is very vulerable to early and mid game blink stalkers. Warhound allows equal footing during those phases
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EPT
