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On August 14 2012 11:32 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 11:22 Captain Peabody wrote:
Gentlemen...I realize that you are underwhelmed by a Battle Report featuring (essentially) terrible, one-dimensional play from both players. Nevertheless, in the face of about a hundred different comments about how (whatever HotS unit) is dumb, overpowered, underpowered, etc, allow me to remind you...
You do not know these things. You have just watched the equivalent of a pre-Beta HotS game involving Gold-level players. I cannot tell you how many comments I saw (and made) during the Alpha, Beta, and so on of SC2 about how useless/stupid/dumb/retarded every single WoL unit was...and most of them were, in retrospect, simply nonsensical.
So please, keep your opinions and state them, but be very prepared to change your mind completely on everything once Beta hits, and for the love of Pete do not let these instant reactions completely determine your opinion of every unit before you've actually tried them or seen them used competently.
Thank you. Let me remind you, this is what people said about WoL when we first saw it in alpha. And what we said when WoL was in beta (oh they'll fix it for the real game) And what we said when WoL was released (it will be fixed in a patch really soon!)
Do you remember when the word on the street was that Hellions would be completely useless? Or when the running joke on the forums was how useless the Colossus was? Or when people were talking about how overpowered the Warp Prism was? Or how Terran was the most boring and one-dimensional of the races?
Man, I can link you to the TL threads of the WoL Battle Reports if you want, and we can all see how insightful all that feedback was. Right now, I'm looking at someone in the thread for Battle Report 3 worried that SC2 games will have too many small back and forth skirmishes and not enough massive battles like in BW.
Look, I'm not saying there were no accurate criticisms pre-Beta. There were certainly several people who picked out some criticisms that ended up being accurate, but they were mostly buried in the middle of an absolute ton of complete nonsense, most of which had to do with which units were boring/overpowered/uninteresting, and it was very, very hard to tell the difference between the two.
Honestly, this entire thread is like a nostalgia trip for me to those days...and it's not exactly filling me with confidence.
The fact is, the vast majority of substantive, valid complaints about WoL were essentially beta and post-beta. Yes, at that stage some people had stupid hopes that Blizzard would completely change the game during beta or at the release or through patches...but that's simply not the same thing as people saying before beta had even come out that the game was a failure and the Warp Prism was overpowered because they'd seen three karking battle reports.
Look; even if you're all completely right, all I'm saying is that you really shouldn't take your ideas as to unit strength and balance as infallible until Beta hits and we can actually test out everything, and that you should be fully prepared to be proved wrong.
I fail to see how that could possibly be a bad idea.
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On August 14 2012 12:58 johnny123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:50 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:49 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:44 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 10:56 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 10:55 trifecta wrote:On August 14 2012 10:53 ntssauce wrote:On August 14 2012 10:51 QTIP. wrote:
Holy shit, Protoss looks awful!
Granted the Protoss player played awful. But if Play HOTS means make Stargate units, that is just... lol. the tempest seems interesting... you can lay siege to a terran/zerg like terran does in TvT.... just camp with your army under the tempest and slowly pull the opp appart :D! so now toss has their broodlord It does the DPS of a Roach, costs 300/300/6, and takes 75 seconds to build. Wouldn't get your hopes up. I am correcting this for you, 37.5 seconds to build because the chronoboost will be unlimited. First of all, chrono does not half the time... Secondly, chrono is meant to compete with Mules+Inject larva. So if you use your chrono purely for Tempests, then you aren't using them for anything else. mothership core disagrees. ... I don't know what's the best way to convince you. How about the Liquidpedia? Chronoboost reduces 10s build time every 20s. (So basically 1 chronoboost = 0.6 probe). The best you can get is a 33% reduction in build time. 75s -> 50s NOT 75s -> 37.5s how else to convince you ? you seem stupid. God .. as i said, the chronoboost will be unlimited because mothership core grants energy recharge .its low enough cooldown that it can permanently give a nexus unlimited energy to chronoboost. With unlimited energy to chronoboost, production is increased 50%. Which means 1/2 the time to build presuming you chrono it non stop. Your arguement is that you still think its wings of liberity and you are limited to limited amount of chronoboosts. I am saying that is not the case, mothership core disagrees. Now stop trying to prove something. You are wrong.
Rofl
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On August 14 2012 12:58 johnny123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:50 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:49 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:44 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 10:56 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 10:55 trifecta wrote:On August 14 2012 10:53 ntssauce wrote:On August 14 2012 10:51 QTIP. wrote:
Holy shit, Protoss looks awful!
Granted the Protoss player played awful. But if Play HOTS means make Stargate units, that is just... lol. the tempest seems interesting... you can lay siege to a terran/zerg like terran does in TvT.... just camp with your army under the tempest and slowly pull the opp appart :D! so now toss has their broodlord It does the DPS of a Roach, costs 300/300/6, and takes 75 seconds to build. Wouldn't get your hopes up. I am correcting this for you, 37.5 seconds to build because the chronoboost will be unlimited. First of all, chrono does not half the time... Secondly, chrono is meant to compete with Mules+Inject larva. So if you use your chrono purely for Tempests, then you aren't using them for anything else. mothership core disagrees. ... I don't know what's the best way to convince you. How about the Liquidpedia? Chronoboost reduces 10s build time every 20s. (So basically 1 chronoboost = 0.6 probe). The best you can get is a 33% reduction in build time. 75s -> 50s NOT 75s -> 37.5s how else to convince you ? you seem stupid. God .. as i said, the chronoboost will be unlimited because mothership core grants energy recharge .its low enough cooldown that it can permanently give a nexus unlimited energy to chronoboost. With unlimited energy to chronoboost, production is increased 50%. Which means 1/2 the time to build presuming you chrono it non stop. Your arguement is that you still think its wings of liberity and you are limited to limited amount of chronoboosts. I am saying that is not the case, mothership core disagrees. Now stop trying to prove something. You are wrong.
lol....dear lord how ironic...its NOT HALF..ITS NOT HALF.. its 50 PERCENT faster...that means 30 seconds of build time is now only 20 seconds. Every chrono cuts off 10 seconds of build time.. HE explained it perfectly but your too dense to understand it
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On August 14 2012 12:58 johnny123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:50 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:49 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:44 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 10:56 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 10:55 trifecta wrote:On August 14 2012 10:53 ntssauce wrote:On August 14 2012 10:51 QTIP. wrote:
Holy shit, Protoss looks awful!
Granted the Protoss player played awful. But if Play HOTS means make Stargate units, that is just... lol. the tempest seems interesting... you can lay siege to a terran/zerg like terran does in TvT.... just camp with your army under the tempest and slowly pull the opp appart :D! so now toss has their broodlord It does the DPS of a Roach, costs 300/300/6, and takes 75 seconds to build. Wouldn't get your hopes up. I am correcting this for you, 37.5 seconds to build because the chronoboost will be unlimited. First of all, chrono does not half the time... Secondly, chrono is meant to compete with Mules+Inject larva. So if you use your chrono purely for Tempests, then you aren't using them for anything else. mothership core disagrees. ... I don't know what's the best way to convince you. How about the Liquidpedia? Chronoboost reduces 10s build time every 20s. (So basically 1 chronoboost = 0.6 probe). The best you can get is a 33% reduction in build time. 75s -> 50s NOT 75s -> 37.5s how else to convince you ? you seem stupid. God .. as i said, the chronoboost will be unlimited because mothership core grants energy recharge .its low enough cooldown that it can permanently give a nexus unlimited energy to chronoboost. With unlimited energy to chronoboost, production is increased 50%. Which means 1/2 the time to build presuming you chrono it non stop. Your arguement is that you still think its wings of liberity and you are limited to limited amount of chronoboosts. I am saying that is not the case, mothership core disagrees. Now stop trying to prove something. You are wrong.
Can't mothership core's recharge be used only on units?
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On August 14 2012 13:03 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:58 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:50 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:49 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:44 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 10:56 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 10:55 trifecta wrote:On August 14 2012 10:53 ntssauce wrote:On August 14 2012 10:51 QTIP. wrote:
Holy shit, Protoss looks awful!
Granted the Protoss player played awful. But if Play HOTS means make Stargate units, that is just... lol. the tempest seems interesting... you can lay siege to a terran/zerg like terran does in TvT.... just camp with your army under the tempest and slowly pull the opp appart :D! so now toss has their broodlord It does the DPS of a Roach, costs 300/300/6, and takes 75 seconds to build. Wouldn't get your hopes up. I am correcting this for you, 37.5 seconds to build because the chronoboost will be unlimited. First of all, chrono does not half the time... Secondly, chrono is meant to compete with Mules+Inject larva. So if you use your chrono purely for Tempests, then you aren't using them for anything else. mothership core disagrees. ... I don't know what's the best way to convince you. How about the Liquidpedia? Chronoboost reduces 10s build time every 20s. (So basically 1 chronoboost = 0.6 probe). The best you can get is a 33% reduction in build time. 75s -> 50s NOT 75s -> 37.5s how else to convince you ? you seem stupid. God .. as i said, the chronoboost will be unlimited because mothership core grants energy recharge .its low enough cooldown that it can permanently give a nexus unlimited energy to chronoboost. With unlimited energy to chronoboost, production is increased 50%. Which means 1/2 the time to build presuming you chrono it non stop. Your arguement is that you still think its wings of liberity and you are limited to limited amount of chronoboosts. I am saying that is not the case, mothership core disagrees. Now stop trying to prove something. You are wrong. Can't mothership core's recharge be used only on units?
That is my understanding. I am pretty sure that would be a simple test for them to preform and confirm if it is possible. I don't think it would make it into the game, since that would be very silly.
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On August 14 2012 12:58 johnny123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:50 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:49 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:44 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 10:56 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 10:55 trifecta wrote:On August 14 2012 10:53 ntssauce wrote:On August 14 2012 10:51 QTIP. wrote:
Holy shit, Protoss looks awful!
Granted the Protoss player played awful. But if Play HOTS means make Stargate units, that is just... lol. the tempest seems interesting... you can lay siege to a terran/zerg like terran does in TvT.... just camp with your army under the tempest and slowly pull the opp appart :D! so now toss has their broodlord It does the DPS of a Roach, costs 300/300/6, and takes 75 seconds to build. Wouldn't get your hopes up. I am correcting this for you, 37.5 seconds to build because the chronoboost will be unlimited. First of all, chrono does not half the time... Secondly, chrono is meant to compete with Mules+Inject larva. So if you use your chrono purely for Tempests, then you aren't using them for anything else. mothership core disagrees. ... I don't know what's the best way to convince you. How about the Liquidpedia? Chronoboost reduces 10s build time every 20s. (So basically 1 chronoboost = 0.6 probe). The best you can get is a 33% reduction in build time. 75s -> 50s NOT 75s -> 37.5s how else to convince you ? you seem stupid. God .. as i said, the chronoboost will be unlimited because mothership core grants energy recharge .its low enough cooldown that it can permanently give a nexus unlimited energy to chronoboost. With unlimited energy to chronoboost, production is increased 50%. Which means 1/2 the time to build presuming you chrono it non stop. Your arguement is that you still think its wings of liberity and you are limited to limited amount of chronoboosts. I am saying that is not the case, mothership core disagrees. Now stop trying to prove something. You are wrong.
You are not good at math. Sorry  He's right. You're wrong.
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Russian Federation483 Posts
On August 14 2012 12:58 johnny123 wrote:
how else to convince you ? you seem stupid.
God ..
as i said, the chronoboost will be unlimited because mothership core grants energy recharge .its low enough cooldown that it can permanently give a nexus unlimited energy to chronoboost.
With unlimited energy to chronoboost, production is increased 50%. Which means 1/2 the time to build presuming you chrono it non stop. Your arguement is that you still think its wings of liberity and you are limited to limited amount of chronoboosts. I am saying that is not the case, mothership core disagrees. Now stop trying to prove something. You are wrong.
Production increased 50% means x1.5 more things in the same time. The time that could take 2 tempests to build, you can build 3, not 4. For 4 it would requiere +100%, or 200% production rate.
You are wrong.
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On August 14 2012 13:01 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:42 Belha wrote:
Agree with the "making easier terran instead of making harder for the other races" statement. Right now the b-hellioin+warhound combination can take appart most ground P army with pure 1a, plus hellion harass potential. I agree that T needs a lategame buff, but i'm pretty sure that is not the way. Sort of appears that way. Mech was already pretty strong in TvP, but the issue was that hellions didn't hold a line between zealots and tanks for long enough. Battle hellions by themselves almost alone could potentially help mech be viable in the highest levels of TvP. I don't get the warhound. It fills like it feels the niche of needing a faster, energyless, attack-move unit which gets mech upgrades. Spoiler: it's not a niche. It's simply a less expensive, faster, energyless Thor that doesn't shoot up. I'm concerned I'll miss this unit called a Thor =( And yeah, agree with the overall statement of the theme. I wish they made more units which can demonstrate a high level of skill. I still think the Oracle, Viper and Mothership Core are in the right direction. Everything for terran though I'm not terribly interested in. Who knows though, I'm looking forward to being surprised, but I just don't want to see anymore "simple units" (Collosus) or useless units (Hydras). Give me more complexity!
You're actually completely missing what Blizzard is doing with Terran.
Terran's the race that actually benefits the most from micro right now, with terran bio being the most standard unit composition across all match ups.
Terran doesn't have the option that the other races have to just sit back and macro and make a big army you can move out with. Zerg has that in the Infestor/Broodlord unit composition and Protoss has that in the deathball, are you going to sit and tell me that every Zerg that turtles straight into Infestor/Broodlord lacks skill or that Protoss takes no skill to play? No, because there's a lot more to it than that.
With mech being viable, Terrans have an option in which style of Terran they'd rather play. Slower more macro and positional oriented or Bio which benefits (and still will benefit) from aggression, multitasking and unit micromanagement.
For Protoss and Zerg they are adding in units that are supposed to have that higher skill cap in the Viper and Swarm Host you have two units you can't just a-move but rather have to be very careful in how you use lest you lose them immediately. Or the Mothership Core and Oracle for Protoss which both give the player their highest benefit when managed correctly throughout the course of a long game which increases the multi-tasking requirement of Protoss as a race.
So in Blizzard's mind, Terran is already the "high skill cap" race. Everyone for the most part already realizes this.
What they're doing in Heart of the Swarm is opening the race up a bit and giving players more ways to play it.
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On August 14 2012 13:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:03 mordk wrote:On August 14 2012 12:58 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:50 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:49 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:44 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 10:56 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 10:55 trifecta wrote:On August 14 2012 10:53 ntssauce wrote:
[quote]
the tempest seems interesting... you can lay siege to a terran/zerg like terran does in TvT.... just camp with your army under the tempest and slowly pull the opp appart :D! so now toss has their broodlord It does the DPS of a Roach, costs 300/300/6, and takes 75 seconds to build. Wouldn't get your hopes up. I am correcting this for you, 37.5 seconds to build because the chronoboost will be unlimited. First of all, chrono does not half the time... Secondly, chrono is meant to compete with Mules+Inject larva. So if you use your chrono purely for Tempests, then you aren't using them for anything else. mothership core disagrees. ... I don't know what's the best way to convince you. How about the Liquidpedia? Chronoboost reduces 10s build time every 20s. (So basically 1 chronoboost = 0.6 probe). The best you can get is a 33% reduction in build time. 75s -> 50s NOT 75s -> 37.5s how else to convince you ? you seem stupid. God .. as i said, the chronoboost will be unlimited because mothership core grants energy recharge .its low enough cooldown that it can permanently give a nexus unlimited energy to chronoboost. With unlimited energy to chronoboost, production is increased 50%. Which means 1/2 the time to build presuming you chrono it non stop. Your arguement is that you still think its wings of liberity and you are limited to limited amount of chronoboosts. I am saying that is not the case, mothership core disagrees. Now stop trying to prove something. You are wrong. Can't mothership core's recharge be used only on units? That is my understanding. I am pretty sure that would be a simple test for them to preform and confirm if it is possible. I don't think it would make it into the game, since that would be very silly.
at MLG anaheim championship I played the build there and you can cast it on the nexus giving it 100 energy of chrono. If you focus it all on Nexus its really hard to spend all the chrono.
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On August 14 2012 12:27 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:26 ZAiNs wrote:On August 14 2012 12:24 MCDayC wrote:
Also yeah, marauder hellion all ins do look like they will be suuuper powerful now, that may need a change. The Mothership Core Cannon will help dealing with these kind of attacks so much. Bunkers in your main base will also be easy to deal with. so the things that made people like boxer famous and proved how deep starcraft is...will be neutered by triggering one ability? well, can't say there's no precedent for it
I see your fungal and raise you stasis field :p
But on topic:
The battle hellions i kinda like but i still wonder if mech would actually work at all against a simple immo/zealot composition, especially if the toss gets a flank off.
The warhound I just don't get the point of it. What is it's purpose? You aren't gonna make warhounds vs zerg because zerg isnt going to go roach vs warhounds - and even if they do, tanks will serve the same purpose but with more range and AoE. In PvT stalkers are easy pickings for sieged up tanks anyway, and immortals will take the same damage from a tank as from a warhound.
In TvT maybe they will be useful but at the moment i can only imagine two scenarios for TvT; only warhounds or none at all.
In fact many of the units seem to be added for the sake of adding units rather than for any real reason or purpose.
So far the ony changes that make me go, "oh that's cool" are the Viper, Ultralisk charge and the Mothership Core.
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Russian Federation483 Posts
On August 14 2012 13:07 Zrana wrote:
I see your fungal and raise you stasis field :p
It's not like you could attack stasis'd units or anything.
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On August 14 2012 12:58 johnny123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:50 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:49 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:44 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 10:56 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 10:55 trifecta wrote:On August 14 2012 10:53 ntssauce wrote:On August 14 2012 10:51 QTIP. wrote:
Holy shit, Protoss looks awful!
Granted the Protoss player played awful. But if Play HOTS means make Stargate units, that is just... lol. the tempest seems interesting... you can lay siege to a terran/zerg like terran does in TvT.... just camp with your army under the tempest and slowly pull the opp appart :D! so now toss has their broodlord It does the DPS of a Roach, costs 300/300/6, and takes 75 seconds to build. Wouldn't get your hopes up. I am correcting this for you, 37.5 seconds to build because the chronoboost will be unlimited. First of all, chrono does not half the time... Secondly, chrono is meant to compete with Mules+Inject larva. So if you use your chrono purely for Tempests, then you aren't using them for anything else. mothership core disagrees. ... I don't know what's the best way to convince you. How about the Liquidpedia? Chronoboost reduces 10s build time every 20s. (So basically 1 chronoboost = 0.6 probe). The best you can get is a 33% reduction in build time. 75s -> 50s NOT 75s -> 37.5s how else to convince you ? you seem stupid. God .. as i said, the chronoboost will be unlimited because mothership core grants energy recharge .its low enough cooldown that it can permanently give a nexus unlimited energy to chronoboost. With unlimited energy to chronoboost, production is increased 50%. Which means 1/2 the time to build presuming you chrono it non stop. Your arguement is that you still think its wings of liberity and you are limited to limited amount of chronoboosts. I am saying that is not the case, mothership core disagrees. Now stop trying to prove something. You are wrong.
Increasing production by 100% will reduce total build time by 50%. That means you can build twice as much stuff in the normal build time (100% increase). A 50% increase allows for the production of 50% more product in the normal build time. Thus a product will be made in 66% of the normal build time if fully chronoboosted. Or you can think of it as getting 150% normal product if a building is endlessly chronoboosted.
If this concept continues to escape you, try not thinking about numbers and just envision it as a progress bar.
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On August 14 2012 13:06 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:01 bittman wrote:On August 14 2012 12:42 Belha wrote:
Agree with the "making easier terran instead of making harder for the other races" statement. Right now the b-hellioin+warhound combination can take appart most ground P army with pure 1a, plus hellion harass potential. I agree that T needs a lategame buff, but i'm pretty sure that is not the way. Sort of appears that way. Mech was already pretty strong in TvP, but the issue was that hellions didn't hold a line between zealots and tanks for long enough. Battle hellions by themselves almost alone could potentially help mech be viable in the highest levels of TvP. I don't get the warhound. It fills like it feels the niche of needing a faster, energyless, attack-move unit which gets mech upgrades. Spoiler: it's not a niche. It's simply a less expensive, faster, energyless Thor that doesn't shoot up. I'm concerned I'll miss this unit called a Thor =( And yeah, agree with the overall statement of the theme. I wish they made more units which can demonstrate a high level of skill. I still think the Oracle, Viper and Mothership Core are in the right direction. Everything for terran though I'm not terribly interested in. Who knows though, I'm looking forward to being surprised, but I just don't want to see anymore "simple units" (Collosus) or useless units (Hydras). Give me more complexity! You're actually compeltely missing what Blizzard is doing with Terran. Terran's the race that actually benefits the most from micro right now, with terran bio being the most standard unit composition across all match ups. Terran doesn't have the option that the other races have to just sit back and macro and make a big army you can move out with. Zerg has that in the Infestor/Broodlord unit composition and Protoss has that in the deathball, are you going to sit and tell me that every Zerg that turtles straight into Infestor/Broodlord lacks skill or that Protoss takes no skill to play? No, because there's a lot more to it than that. With mech being viable, Terrans have an option in which style of Terran they'd rather play. Slower more macro and positional oriented or Bio which benefits (and still will benefit) from aggression, multitasking and unit micromanagement. For Protoss and Zerg they are adding in units that are supposed to have that higher skill cap in the Viper and Swarm Host you can two units you can't just a-move but rather have to be very careful in how you use lest you lose them immediately. So in Blizzard's mind, Terran is already the "high skill cap" race. Everyone for the most part already realizes this. What they're doing in Heart of the Swarm is opening the race up a bit and giving players more ways to play it.
This is just stupid. They should make Terran units that keep the Terran skill ceiling where it is instead of lowering it. And then they should have made Toss and Zerg units that raise their respective skill ceilings to the level of terran micro.
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I see a lot of bitching and complaining about things that, while present in the BR here, are actually not an issue with real play. For example, there is no way a Tempest should be taken out by Vikings, simply because of how much the tempest can out-range them and then kite from a super safe distance. These Battle Reports are just a way to show off the new stuff in a ~gold league setting, with some real pro's at the keyboard things will look and feel a lot different.
Having said that, I have some misgivings about the way things are going in HotS too. Warhounds feel like Marauders from a Factory, and I just don't see what their role in the army is (that is different from Marauders that is). Tempests... feel wierd. The long range and good damage is nice, but it feels like they shoot way too slow (and this kill things way slow, unless it's a one shot) for their cost/tech.
While their is some value in offering criticism at this point, people really need to realize that their fears and dislikes of things are based more off their perception of HotS than off the actual state of HotS. By this I mean that it is easy to see something that looks OP or UP, or just plain stupid in these BR's but if you were to actually play with the new design it would likely feel vastly different than what had perceived/imagined prior. While I cant stop you from forming an opinion based on the BR's I encourage more people to hold off judgment of HotS for when Beta comes out.
Thankfully Blizzard is generally pretty good about getting solid input from many sources and making small changes, rather than listen to people who watch one video and claim something is "clearly broken" or "terrible design."
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On August 14 2012 13:10 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:58 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:50 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:49 SarcasmMonster wrote:On August 14 2012 12:44 johnny123 wrote:On August 14 2012 10:56 Shiori wrote:On August 14 2012 10:55 trifecta wrote:On August 14 2012 10:53 ntssauce wrote:On August 14 2012 10:51 QTIP. wrote:
Holy shit, Protoss looks awful!
Granted the Protoss player played awful. But if Play HOTS means make Stargate units, that is just... lol. the tempest seems interesting... you can lay siege to a terran/zerg like terran does in TvT.... just camp with your army under the tempest and slowly pull the opp appart :D! so now toss has their broodlord It does the DPS of a Roach, costs 300/300/6, and takes 75 seconds to build. Wouldn't get your hopes up. I am correcting this for you, 37.5 seconds to build because the chronoboost will be unlimited. First of all, chrono does not half the time... Secondly, chrono is meant to compete with Mules+Inject larva. So if you use your chrono purely for Tempests, then you aren't using them for anything else. mothership core disagrees. ... I don't know what's the best way to convince you. How about the Liquidpedia? Chronoboost reduces 10s build time every 20s. (So basically 1 chronoboost = 0.6 probe). The best you can get is a 33% reduction in build time. 75s -> 50s NOT 75s -> 37.5s how else to convince you ? you seem stupid. God .. as i said, the chronoboost will be unlimited because mothership core grants energy recharge .its low enough cooldown that it can permanently give a nexus unlimited energy to chronoboost. With unlimited energy to chronoboost, production is increased 50%. Which means 1/2 the time to build presuming you chrono it non stop. Your arguement is that you still think its wings of liberity and you are limited to limited amount of chronoboosts. I am saying that is not the case, mothership core disagrees. Now stop trying to prove something. You are wrong. Increasing production by 100% will reduce total build time by 50%. That means you can build twice as much stuff in the normal build time (100% increase). A 50% increase allows for the production of 50% more product in the normal build time. Thus a product will be made in 66% of the normal build time if fully chronoboosted. Or you can think of it as getting 150% normal product if a building is endlessly chronoboosted. If this concept continues to escape you, try not thinking about numbers and just envision it as a progress bar.
well this is a damn face palm, i kinda see what the point is, its not actually double the speed because if it was then it would have to be 100%. I see. I cant believe since i been playing i always thought it meant twice the speed.
Anyway , the point still stands, with unlimited chronoboost these so called useless "tempests" that apparently have to long production times for some peoples opinions will come out pretty fast thanks to mothership core energy ability.
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On August 14 2012 13:11 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:06 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2012 13:01 bittman wrote:On August 14 2012 12:42 Belha wrote:
Agree with the "making easier terran instead of making harder for the other races" statement. Right now the b-hellioin+warhound combination can take appart most ground P army with pure 1a, plus hellion harass potential. I agree that T needs a lategame buff, but i'm pretty sure that is not the way. Sort of appears that way. Mech was already pretty strong in TvP, but the issue was that hellions didn't hold a line between zealots and tanks for long enough. Battle hellions by themselves almost alone could potentially help mech be viable in the highest levels of TvP. I don't get the warhound. It fills like it feels the niche of needing a faster, energyless, attack-move unit which gets mech upgrades. Spoiler: it's not a niche. It's simply a less expensive, faster, energyless Thor that doesn't shoot up. I'm concerned I'll miss this unit called a Thor =( And yeah, agree with the overall statement of the theme. I wish they made more units which can demonstrate a high level of skill. I still think the Oracle, Viper and Mothership Core are in the right direction. Everything for terran though I'm not terribly interested in. Who knows though, I'm looking forward to being surprised, but I just don't want to see anymore "simple units" (Collosus) or useless units (Hydras). Give me more complexity! You're actually compeltely missing what Blizzard is doing with Terran. Terran's the race that actually benefits the most from micro right now, with terran bio being the most standard unit composition across all match ups. Terran doesn't have the option that the other races have to just sit back and macro and make a big army you can move out with. Zerg has that in the Infestor/Broodlord unit composition and Protoss has that in the deathball, are you going to sit and tell me that every Zerg that turtles straight into Infestor/Broodlord lacks skill or that Protoss takes no skill to play? No, because there's a lot more to it than that. With mech being viable, Terrans have an option in which style of Terran they'd rather play. Slower more macro and positional oriented or Bio which benefits (and still will benefit) from aggression, multitasking and unit micromanagement. For Protoss and Zerg they are adding in units that are supposed to have that higher skill cap in the Viper and Swarm Host you can two units you can't just a-move but rather have to be very careful in how you use lest you lose them immediately. So in Blizzard's mind, Terran is already the "high skill cap" race. Everyone for the most part already realizes this. What they're doing in Heart of the Swarm is opening the race up a bit and giving players more ways to play it. This is just stupid. They should make Terran units that keep the Terran skill ceiling where it is instead of lowering it. And then they should have made Toss and Zerg units that raise their respective skill ceilings to the level of terran micro.
They aren't lowering the skill ceiling of Bio, that is staying where it is.
They are giving Terrans the option to play a different style that has a different set of skill demands, so that every Terran that plays doesn't HAVE to practice for hours a day how to Marine split in order to defeat Zergs, or HAVE to practice multi-pronged drop play in order to beat Protoss.
Those that can and that want to, can still do that and still obtain the results, but for the rest of the Terran playerbase that either can't or don't enjoy being FORCED to play that way, Blizzard is adding an alternative.
Again, it requires a DIFFERENT set of skills, doesn't mean that it requires less skill, just a different set. To get an idea of what I mean try playing a ton of TvT and try mastering both Bio and Mech TvT playstyles, I can guarantee you that one of those styles will feel more natural to you, but I cannot tell you which one. Why? Because they are different but equal in the TvT match up. Which is very different from the other two match ups where Bio is clearly better in nearly all situations especially in the late game.
If Blizzard manages to do that in HOTS with every Terran match up, that will be an enormous success in my book.
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This whole BR is just depressing. I was hoping for it to bring in some excitement for HOTS for me. Instead, the units and gameplay are so dull and boring that makes me scare for the future of competitive play and spectating. Blizzard really seems to have lost its way and are unable to create dynamic and interesting units anymore. Their design concepts seem so one dimensional. Still, I have about 5% of hope left that they'll find a way to redeem themselves some time down the road.
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I'm still under the impression that Starcraft 2 hasn't been a great game ever since the "every race gets a dragoon" thing. Lacks creativity, racial distinction isn't as strong as BW, still death balls. blah so bored over this game and havent played in months. Was really looking forward to this tonight and giving me something to try and get the beta.
Guess I'll go see what all this LoL ruckus is about and maybe play that...
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On August 14 2012 13:19 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 13:11 Sroobz wrote:On August 14 2012 13:06 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2012 13:01 bittman wrote:On August 14 2012 12:42 Belha wrote:
Agree with the "making easier terran instead of making harder for the other races" statement. Right now the b-hellioin+warhound combination can take appart most ground P army with pure 1a, plus hellion harass potential. I agree that T needs a lategame buff, but i'm pretty sure that is not the way. Sort of appears that way. Mech was already pretty strong in TvP, but the issue was that hellions didn't hold a line between zealots and tanks for long enough. Battle hellions by themselves almost alone could potentially help mech be viable in the highest levels of TvP. I don't get the warhound. It fills like it feels the niche of needing a faster, energyless, attack-move unit which gets mech upgrades. Spoiler: it's not a niche. It's simply a less expensive, faster, energyless Thor that doesn't shoot up. I'm concerned I'll miss this unit called a Thor =( And yeah, agree with the overall statement of the theme. I wish they made more units which can demonstrate a high level of skill. I still think the Oracle, Viper and Mothership Core are in the right direction. Everything for terran though I'm not terribly interested in. Who knows though, I'm looking forward to being surprised, but I just don't want to see anymore "simple units" (Collosus) or useless units (Hydras). Give me more complexity! You're actually compeltely missing what Blizzard is doing with Terran. Terran's the race that actually benefits the most from micro right now, with terran bio being the most standard unit composition across all match ups. Terran doesn't have the option that the other races have to just sit back and macro and make a big army you can move out with. Zerg has that in the Infestor/Broodlord unit composition and Protoss has that in the deathball, are you going to sit and tell me that every Zerg that turtles straight into Infestor/Broodlord lacks skill or that Protoss takes no skill to play? No, because there's a lot more to it than that. With mech being viable, Terrans have an option in which style of Terran they'd rather play. Slower more macro and positional oriented or Bio which benefits (and still will benefit) from aggression, multitasking and unit micromanagement. For Protoss and Zerg they are adding in units that are supposed to have that higher skill cap in the Viper and Swarm Host you can two units you can't just a-move but rather have to be very careful in how you use lest you lose them immediately. So in Blizzard's mind, Terran is already the "high skill cap" race. Everyone for the most part already realizes this. What they're doing in Heart of the Swarm is opening the race up a bit and giving players more ways to play it. This is just stupid. They should make Terran units that keep the Terran skill ceiling where it is instead of lowering it. And then they should have made Toss and Zerg units that raise their respective skill ceilings to the level of terran micro. They aren't lowering the skill ceiling of Bio, that is staying where it is. They are giving Terrans the option to play a different style that has a different set of skill demands, so that every Terran that plays doesn't HAVE to practice for hours a day how to Marine split in order to defeat Zergs, or HAVE to practice multi-pronged drop play in order to beat Protoss. Those that can and that want to, can still do that and still obtain the results, but for the rest of the Terran playerbase that either can't or don't enjoy being FORCED to play that way, Blizzard is adding an alternative. Again, it requires a DIFFERENT set of skills, doesn't mean that it requires less skill, just a different set. To get an idea of what I mean try playing a ton of TvT and try mastering both Bio and Mech TvT playstyles, I can guarantee you that one of those styles will feel more natural to you, but I cannot tell you which one. Why? Because they are different but equal in the TvT match up. Which is very different from the other two match ups where Bio is clearly better in nearly all situations especially in the late game. If Blizzard manages to do that in HOTS with every Terran match up, that will be an enormous success in my book.
They said that was their goal and I respect that and I like the direction their going but I do not support the way how they want us to play mech. It absolutely terrible.
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After seeing the ridiculously stupid A move long range unit that is the Tempest (again) and seeing the protoss nexus core having such ridiculous range for a defensive unit, I'm glad I am not a Terran tester. I don't understand what Blizzard was thinking showing Terran players this video. Anyone with competent RTS understanding would know that the Terran only won because he was actually making units while the protoss was not, instead he was using his tempests like the way a bronze zerg player would use his broodlords. The Warhounds appeared to be completely worthless vs air that whole match, I thought they are suppose to replace Thors as ground to air too?
What happened in that TvP matchup could've been done with Bioball blobs, especially with the usual dropship harass at expansions.
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EPT
