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On August 14 2012 12:36 0neder wrote:
Stop defending Shaun. If he really cared about SC2's future, he'd speak out and Blizzard would be forced to listen or risk losing even more of their core fan base. He could do that and still cast SC2 unless Blizzard has so much control over tournaments that they could blackball him.
It's Sean btw. If you really cared about him, you'd spell his name correctly 
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I want to think that pros + metagame will evolve into a brighter future, but with units like like the oracle and the tempest I jus cant see it..
"Beautiful use of entombed !!"
"Tempest taking down tanks!! terran scans, not anymore..!!"
"Look at that warhound micro!"
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United States7483 Posts
On August 14 2012 12:37 dynwar7 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:12 architecture wrote:
Mothership core singlehandly rapes bio viability. Good luck outpositioning P army with mass recall, and good luck getting lucky drops with purifier cannon. May I ask why you think mothership core will kill bio? Yes the range is long, so is the damage, very high, but it has slow rate of fire right? And losing a few marines/marauders is nothing compared to losing tanks/warhounds right? So what makes you think bio will not be viable in tvp? And on topic, yeah, I did not see a colossus/storm in that game. Dont worry, Protoss will still be strong. "When in doubt, make colossi and storm"
Storm is probably not a good plan vs. Mech, I'd rather have archons vs. that comp since nothing terran has from the factory apart from thors is good vs. archons (o shit, maybe we'll see a use for those strike cannons, using them on archons). Colossi would have been good though to deal with the battle hellions.
To be fair guys, this is probably not what a real match would look like at all, even if they played a lot better. They were probably asked specifically to show off all the new units and mostly ignore the old ones.
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On August 14 2012 12:37 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:24 MCDayC wrote:
Also yeah, marauder hellion all ins do look like they will be suuuper powerful now, that may need a change. Actually the first TvP build I tried at the MLG demo was a Hellion/Marauder rush. Mothership Core shut it down so hard I literally laughed out loud. No but seriously, good luck EVER rushing a Protoss when Mothership Cores are on the field. Ehhhh, it shouldn't be that bad, buff only lasts 20 seconds, just back out of range for the 20 seconds, or hit someplace else (get a medivac out and drop, mothership core can't be in two places at once), or any number of other things. Hell, if the protoss just recalled, counter attacks should be great, he can't use it.
Yeah, they can use it twice at max. 20 seconds is enough time for one extra warp in, which could get a protoss enough FFs to hold off a push. Still, that one less recall the terran needs to worry about.
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On August 14 2012 12:36 0neder wrote:
Stop defending Shaun. If he really cared about SC2's future, he'd speak out and Blizzard would be forced to listen or risk losing even more of their core fan base. He could do that and still cast SC2 unless Blizzard has so much control over tournaments that they could blackball him.
Has it ever occurred to you that he wasn't allowed to do that as part of the agreement to cast these battle reports? For all you know, he might get sued if he breaks the agreement. Pretty sure he cares about SC2's future as much as all of us, it's his job.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On August 14 2012 12:38 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:02 magnaflow wrote:
Nobody should really be judging the state of the game from these reports. I will hold my judgement for when the beta is released and people that actually know what they are doing have some time to play.
It's quite obvious these are scripted and are just here too showcase some of the new units and what they may or may not be capable of. Looks exciting, can't wait for the beta! I am so tired of people who say this. It's fucking rediculous. If the units were cool in any way at all, and not 1A pieces of shit, people would say so! TL community is pretty damn harsh when it comes to majority opinions, but the majority opinion says something. YES, we SHOULD be judging the state of the game from these reports. This is the direction that Blizzard is taking the game that you just watched, and it's the wrong direction! Why the fuck anyone say that they will just wait to see what becomes of terribly designed units? Why not complain, and demand the awesome units that this game deserves? I will not withold judgement, and no one else should. It is not just about stats, it is about unit concepts. These units are TERRIBLE. And we should all start complaining NOW, not when the units are in beta. B/c when it gets to beta there is less and less of a chance that these units will ever be swapped out with units that are exciting to use and watch.
Here here. Incidentally can anyone recall where the vote is in this thread? Want to see which way it's swinging. Last time it said TvP looked better than it is now :O
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On August 14 2012 12:38 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:24 MCDayC wrote:
Also yeah, marauder hellion all ins do look like they will be suuuper powerful now, that may need a change. Actually the first TvP build I tried at the MLG demo was a Hellion/Marauder rush. Mothership Core shut it down so hard I literally laughed out loud. No but seriously, good luck EVER rushing a Protoss when Mothership Cores are on the field. Is there a disadvantage in getting a Mothership core, saying as you played that build? I'd always thought one of the problems with Warp Gates were that they weren't a tactical decision, but a necessity. If you could produce faster out of gateways than warpgates I think it would have added an extra dimension to Protoss play. It would have given an APM sink and made chrono-distribution more important, or you could opt for gateway rallies, or a more mobile but slower producing warpgate/warp prism combo. The Mothership Core as I see it currently is similar to Warp Gate, in that I haven't really seen any reason NOT to get it ASAP
No. The Mothership Core is essentially a mix of a Queen and an Orbital Command now, there's literally no reason to ever not build it.
You can use it for base defense or to boost your economy and it also has combat utility. The only tactical decision really involving the Mothership Core is when or if to turn it into a Mothership. When it becomes a mothership it loses its Purify and Energize abilities, but gains Forcefield and Stasis and also the ability to move it no longer has its cloaking field though.
You can only have one Mothership out on the field at any time, so that means you can't have both a Mothership and Mothership Core out on the field at the same time.
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On August 14 2012 12:38 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:36 0neder wrote:
Stop defending Shaun. If he really cared about SC2's future, he'd speak out and Blizzard would be forced to listen or risk losing even more of their core fan base. He could do that and still cast SC2 unless Blizzard has so much control over tournaments that they could blackball him. It's Sean btw. If you really cared about him, you'd spell his name correctly
It true, and Sean does care a lot of SC2. He also understands that all the feed back he gives is only so useful until the pros dive head long into HotS and really test the limits of these units.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 14 2012 12:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:37 Whitewing wrote:On August 14 2012 12:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 14 2012 12:24 MCDayC wrote:
Also yeah, marauder hellion all ins do look like they will be suuuper powerful now, that may need a change. Actually the first TvP build I tried at the MLG demo was a Hellion/Marauder rush. Mothership Core shut it down so hard I literally laughed out loud. No but seriously, good luck EVER rushing a Protoss when Mothership Cores are on the field. Ehhhh, it shouldn't be that bad, buff only lasts 20 seconds, just back out of range for the 20 seconds, or hit someplace else (get a medivac out and drop, mothership core can't be in two places at once), or any number of other things. Hell, if the protoss just recalled, counter attacks should be great, he can't use it. Yeah, they can use it twice at max. 20 seconds is enough time for one extra warp in, which could get a protoss enough FFs to hold off a push. Still, that one less recall the terran needs to worry about.
If all I need to hold the push is FF's, I'd rather just give a sentry full energy with the core rather than use the cannon.
The mothership core fills a vital role for Protoss, but it's more important PvZ and PvP than it is PvT: it allows protoss to fast expand without a forge in PvZ, and it allows protoss to expand at all in PvP, and opens up the matchup a lot.
To be honest, I was really hoping to see battle reports for the mirrors too.
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Agree with the "making easier terran instead of making harder for the other races" statement. Right now the b-hellioin+warhound combination can take appart most ground P army with pure 1a, plus hellion harass potential. I agree that T needs a lategame buff, but i'm pretty sure that is not the way.
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On August 14 2012 12:36 ZeeMan wrote:
with + vs armoured, warhounds will be good vs stalker and roaches. Units that were already bad enough vs Terran???
Well right now if you ever face a meching terran as protoss your counter to hellions is stalkers... But it seems that warhounds just rip them apart with normal attacks and their missiles..
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That was a very underwhelming presentation.
It did nothing to convince me for the new-design but l guess it's better to reserve final judgment on units and abilities until good players get their hands on them.
Maybe it was the gameplay-level and tactics used made such a bad impression stick.
Blizzard should really plan a better pacing and more interesting army use - all they managed was to make the game look terribly boring.
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Some thoughts:
- Rock towers are awesome. You don't have to use them on your map. They are there and they give map makers options. Options are always good. If they turn out to not be good for the game... the community will simply not use them. Just like it did with steppes of war.
- The tempest is a very weird unit. While the ground attack seems to be all the rage the main purpose of the unit in its original concept was air dominance over everything. From what I was able to see the unit seems to do an ok job at it but it dint feel as OP as it should considering their cost. Interesting possibilities arise when you start thinking about sniping infestors / ghosts with 22 range ground attack, vikings / corruptors clumping up. They could even spell doom for war of the worlds PvP if the ground attack can be used on colossus (as in the ai doesn't bug out and try to fly to air attack range even though its in range for ground attack)
- The warhound is a beefed up marauder that can't stim or be medvac healed. But it does have enough HP and mobility to break siege lines. Thors could do this to a certain extent but there movement speed prohibited from really getting past the point of tanking the first couple siege tank volleys. I'm really exited to see them how they interact in major battles. If the colossus / zealot charge breaks the line fast enough immortals are gonna have a field day. EMP could play a major role here but i do think its gonna add complexity to battles. You might not want to throw every zealot at the front right away and save some when the hellions die (remember toss can reinforce directly if the battle is going your way) effectibly putting light armor to play soaking warhound / siege tank fire.
Overall I do think the unit seems a little lame, specially the missiles but I'm writing them off as garbage/OP just yet.
- Battle hellions... I'm really scared this unit might break the game in TvZ more than anything it can do in TvP. Hellion marauder pushes just seem so scary. In TvP they add an interesting feature to terran. They are not marines! They can't do damage to every armor type at the same rate. Warhounds seems expensive enough to not want to be throwing them around all your bases to defend. While hellions might be very fast they don't do so well vs stalkers.
Thus opening up protoss to weird stuff we haven't seen in wings yet. like colossus drops (remember mech is very limited on anti air) more stalker harassment.
- Mothership core... where to start...
This thing is insane. Maybe a little too insane. Bunker rushes are a thing of the past to say the least. As long as you don't die right away you'll be in good shape. Recall might be a little too powerful but its expensive enough to make you think twice about recalling over warping nearby.
The range 13 60 damage cannon is an odd addition to toss defenses Almost like blizzard is really scared of them getting killed in the 6-8 min range, its not gonna do much if 20 lings are attacking your nexus but you sure as hell wont be dying to marines, those poor suckers are getting 1 shot from almost a screen away.
Refilling your recently emped high templars for that one storm that will win you the game could bring us some awesome moments.
- The widow mine while simple will certainly add to those OOOOOOHhhhhhh moments in pro games. Can't really say if it will accomplish its goal of splitting the death ball but it will certainly be interesting to spectate its use.
tldr: I don't think the units are bad. But they do need polishing. And HoTs will certainly be more interesting to spectate and hopefully play if some of these units accomplish their stated goals.
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On August 14 2012 12:40 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:38 Qwyn wrote:On August 14 2012 12:02 magnaflow wrote:
Nobody should really be judging the state of the game from these reports. I will hold my judgement for when the beta is released and people that actually know what they are doing have some time to play.
It's quite obvious these are scripted and are just here too showcase some of the new units and what they may or may not be capable of. Looks exciting, can't wait for the beta! I am so tired of people who say this. It's fucking rediculous. If the units were cool in any way at all, and not 1A pieces of shit, people would say so! TL community is pretty damn harsh when it comes to majority opinions, but the majority opinion says something. YES, we SHOULD be judging the state of the game from these reports. This is the direction that Blizzard is taking the game that you just watched, and it's the wrong direction! Why the fuck anyone say that they will just wait to see what becomes of terribly designed units? Why not complain, and demand the awesome units that this game deserves? I will not withold judgement, and no one else should. It is not just about stats, it is about unit concepts. These units are TERRIBLE. And we should all start complaining NOW, not when the units are in beta. B/c when it gets to beta there is less and less of a chance that these units will ever be swapped out with units that are exciting to use and watch. Here here. Incidentally can anyone recall where the vote is in this thread? Want to see which way it's swinging. Last time it said TvP looked better than it is now :O
Here's the poll I posted a couple hundred posts back.
Poll: First impressions of HOTS TvPWorse (179) 81% Improved (34) 15% Same (9) 4% 222 total votes Your vote: First impressions of HOTS TvP (Vote): Improved
(Vote): Worse
(Vote): Same
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On August 14 2012 10:56 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 10:55 trifecta wrote:On August 14 2012 10:53 ntssauce wrote:On August 14 2012 10:51 QTIP. wrote:
Holy shit, Protoss looks awful!
Granted the Protoss player played awful. But if Play HOTS means make Stargate units, that is just... lol. the tempest seems interesting... you can lay siege to a terran/zerg like terran does in TvT.... just camp with your army under the tempest and slowly pull the opp appart :D! so now toss has their broodlord It does the DPS of a Roach, costs 300/300/6, and takes 75 seconds to build. Wouldn't get your hopes up.
I am correcting this for you, 37.5 seconds to build because the chronoboost will be unlimited.
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Sums it up perfectly. The new mech is just slightly-clunkier bio with more hitpoints/damage output.
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i dunno what to think about this oracle... i would much rather see a reaver drop out of a shuttle or warpprism kekeke and shoot some bugged out scrabs. Instead this acorn looking thing rolls up and drops a duece on your minerals. ps i don't like tempest they look stupid and they should keep carriers see ya
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All I have to say to the vast majority of posters in this thread is.
WAIT FOR FUCKING BETA AND SHUT UP IN THE MEANTIME.
Seriously. After actually PLAYING Heart of the Swarm I can say without absolute certainty that the game plays a hell of a lot better than it looks, I was right there with you guys until I actually went and played the game.
So far in the Battle Reports, all we've seen are cherry picked games designed to show off all of the new units, not necessarily the best way to use each unit just the new units. Each one changes the metagame a lot, both what you liked about it and what you disliked about it.
Tempests are going to be amazing in PvZ and are going to give Protoss a good answer for dealing with Broodlords that they currently don't have.
Warhounds give Terrans the ability to finally go Mech against Protoss, but get shut down fantastically by a unit that wasn't even used against them in this Battle Report. Archons.
Mech by definition is not a style that has a lot of high micro potential but instead relies heavily on positioning and strategy, sure it isn't showy but its a lot different than Bio play and for once is a style that doesn't permanently rely heavily on the Terran's ability to kite and split or get crushed by Protoss AOE.
The game is changing, it's going to be a lot of fun. Just wait until the beta.
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How could Browder possibly think that removing risk from strategic decisions is exciting or good game design?
Mothership core = safe fast expo, safe tech, safe harass with NO RISK! Woohoo!
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Hmm, thanks for the vid of an old build bliz. Was kinda dissapointed with the BR. The other 2 were much more exciting. Iv'e played mod custom HOTS matches better than this.
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EPT
