EPTHeart of the Swarm TvP Battle Report! - Page 32
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Mzimzim
United States221 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On August 14 2012 12:15 MCDayC wrote: The only thing I'm ready to admit is terrible is the warhound. And by terrible I'd argue that right now its the worst unit Blizzard has designed. It looks terrible. I don't know anyone who likes the looks. And it also seems to be unmicroable, heck it seems like a mech version of a marauder with stim. Not only that, but it'll be entirely useless against Zerg, just because its designed and balanced around doing bonus against massive. AND, it seems it'll make tanks redundant vs Toss, as you could just mech with battlehellion warhound. Terrible, terrible terrible. On the other hand, I like everything else. The battle hellion seems needed vs chargelots, and it seems like it'll do okay vs Immortals, which is really enough. It also forces the player to make choices about mobility (which mech will still lack) or staying power, on the fly. The widow mine makes mech openings a whole lot safer it seems, its uses later remain to be seen. However, its the kind of unit where I'm sure people will find uses for it, so for now it passes judgement, at least for me. I seriously don't get the hate for the Tempest. The criticisms that is just "bad" are just mindless and pointless. Thats a balance thing, numbers will be adjusted. People should be discussing design, and imo its pretty interesting. Its not a straight up replacement for the Carrier. I think its actually more interesting, at least compared to the SC2 carrier. In the BR, it became a pretty potent late game harassment tool, able to one shot workers, snipe off expansions, generally be a nuisance. However, it won't be a good deathball, clump tastic unit (which is what a lot of people's criticisms of WoL is), because doing that would be pointless. Its not incredible strong for its supply/cost, so massing it up exclusively would be suicide, they could just go kill you. And with such long range, keeping them close together would be pointless, far better to have the wide apart, covering each other, but not so that if units get under one of them, they all die. Isn't that a good thing? A useful lategame unit, but one in which the sole objective isn't to mass up and go fucking kill them, or to just turtle on them, because it both cases it would be useless. Aren't all the above at the very least neutral? I'm not understanding the hate, this is was low level game on a terrible map with relatively untested units. Of course its not gonna be as good as Flash vs Jaedong, or something. I more or less agree, I'm still a little more concerned about the battle hellion though. I can see how it might play out, with protoss players keeping zealots in back of their army, taking out the battle hellions with immortals, stalkers, archons to tank, and colossi, then backing up and sending the zealots in to clean everything else up, so that's cool in that it forces more army control than A-move. On the other hand, those things in clumps do way too much damage, and the hit point boost doesn't even make sense (an armor buff would make more sense IMO). In general I'm just concerned that they are too good at being both tanky and doing damage, but I suppose numbers can be fixed. | ||
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
On August 14 2012 12:18 Scila wrote: This is actually my expectation for battle hellions in HOTS. They will just die in seconds to Colossus splash and the zelaots will still rape Terran as they do now. If the actual game is anything like the HOTS custom map, this is not what happens. Battlehellions endure long enough to kill the zealots, letting the warhounds kill everything else, including the colossi and immortals. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On August 14 2012 12:19 Reborn8u wrote: Stop beating on day9, if you listen closely he is critical of the game. He does it with very subtle comments and sarcasm. If he came out and said "22 range, that is just stupid and bad for the game" he wouldn't get to do these BR's anymore, and would probably have a tough time getting future work with blizzard or using them as a reference. There is still a 3rd expansion after this to think about. Over all, the players were really bad, the new units were not very exciting, the new toss abilities look as ridiculously op as warp gate did, when it only took a minute to research (i play toss btw) and we all know how bad toss got beat with the nerf bat because of warp gate and FF in the early days. The mothership core is stupid op for defense and offense (recall, recharge, tank range 60 dmg) the new harass unit is shit, I think anyone would rather use prism with chargelots (because you stop mining for about the same amount of time, kill some workers and the tech path is easier) The tempest seems boring, it has its utility though, so I can live with that. But really, I don't see any way for protoss to deal with BL infestor. Isn't vortex toilet gone in HOTS? You can recall, but then you'll just be fighting the same fight at your doorstep 10 seconds later. On top of all the new zerg abilities, they can abduct and ware down your colossus count, as well as the new dark swarm ability. It looks like zerg will be able to fungal and smash you with corrputors, BL, roach, and deny any blink forward sniping with dark swarm. Then just turn all the remaining corruptors into BL's once the tempests are gone. Or do an even earlier Infestor/swarm host/roach push, and basically have the same power BL infestor does now. You wont be able to get close to the swarm hosts in order to kill them and every fungal that lands is a death sentence to a chunk of your army. The tempest would possibly help with this. It is of course impossible to know how things will play out or be balanced. Especially since it looks like now protoss gets ezpz expansions like terran or zerg (for different reasons) I think the game could be a lot of fun, but it just seems like to much easy mode, a move, terrible terrible damage, hard countering, super easy thoughtless safe expands, to be much of a serious RTS Esport. I blame Browder for much of the bad design, he is in charge of this dept. and in many interviews both recently and going all the way back to release, his comments demonstrate his poor understanding of the game, balance, and esports. I wouldn't even insult diamond players by saying he has their level of understanding, because it's clearly below that. Vortex toilet is gone against air units, but you can still vortex ground units (mothership is still in the game, you turn your mothership core into a mothership). The mothership also has an anti-air stasis spell for brood lords, so it's still good vs. BL/infestor. Also, tempests can really take the shine out of a BL/infester slow push of doom, since the tempests can take out Broods pretty quick due to bonus damage vs. massive, and from a range that the infestors can't do squat to help: you'd need corrupters, and lots of them. On the other hand, burrow charge ultralisks look stupidly powerful. My opinion: I can live with everything as it is now for the most part, but please get rid of the warhounds, and just give terran Goliaths or something. | ||
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foxmulder_ms
United States140 Posts
 I know they are trying to make mech more of an option but it only makes bio ball stronger, nothing else. Tempest will be even less usable than Carrier Also, marouder-helion all ins will be a bitch... | ||
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
On August 14 2012 12:19 Whitewing wrote: I more or less agree, I'm still a little more concerned about the battle hellion though. I can see how it might play out, with protoss players keeping zealots in back of their army, taking out the battle hellions with immortals, stalkers, archons to tank, and colossi, then backing up and sending the zealots in to clean everything else up, so that's cool in that it forces more army control than A-move. On the other hand, those things in clumps do way too much damage, and the hit point boost doesn't even make sense (an armor buff would make more sense IMO). In general I'm just concerned that they are too good at being both tanky and doing damage, but I suppose numbers can be fixed. For me if done right they could make positioning huge. You'd always want your zealots hitting tanks, you couldn't just A-Move in cause then you zealots would aggro onto battlehellions and get melted. You'd have to manually spread the zealots among multiple tanks aswell, because if you just click on a tank, they'll all just hit that one tank, get clumped and be stranded in the middle of nowhere. | ||
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
If they aren't, or they don't have the super anti-light attack, phoenix could make the matchup really interesting (way more than we saw here). If they are still in it, they'll still be useless, as 1-2 thors make them worthless. | ||
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imJealous
United States1382 Posts
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Trevoc
United States145 Posts
On August 14 2012 11:53 Moka wrote: Lol @ this map. It would be funny to trap a army on the high ground with these collapsible rocks and nuke the shit out of them Recall dude... | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On August 14 2012 12:24 MCDayC wrote: Also yeah, marauder hellion all ins do look like they will be suuuper powerful now, that may need a change. The Mothership Core Cannon will help dealing with these kind of attacks so much. Bunkers in your main base will also be easy to deal with. | ||
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
Still don't like the Warhound at all, both design and aestetics and I feel reintroducing the Goliath would be a far better replacement that would see use in all matchups, not just TvP. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23765 Posts
On August 14 2012 12:19 Reborn8u wrote: Stop beating on day9, if you listen closely he is critical of the game. He does it with very subtle comments and sarcasm. If he came out and said "22 range, that is just stupid and bad for the game" he wouldn't get to do these BR's anymore, and would probably have a tough time getting future work with blizzard or using them as a reference. There is still a 3rd expansion after this to think about. Over all, the players were really bad, the new units were not very exciting, the new toss abilities look as ridiculously op as warp gate did, when it only took a minute to research (i play toss btw) and we all know how bad toss got beat with the nerf bat because of warp gate and FF in the early days. The mothership core is stupid op for defense and offense (recall, recharge, tank range 60 dmg) the new harass unit is shit, I think anyone would rather use prism with chargelots (because you stop mining for about the same amount of time, kill some workers and the tech path is easier, it also doesn't risk any gas units) The tempest seems boring, it has its utility though, so I can live with that. But really, I don't see any way for protoss to deal with BL infestor. Isn't vortex toilet gone in HOTS? You can recall, but then you'll just be fighting the same fight at your doorstep 10 seconds later. On top of all the new zerg abilities, they can abduct and ware down your colossus count, as well as the new dark swarm ability. It looks like zerg will be able to fungal and smash you with corrputors, BL, roach, and deny any blink forward sniping with dark swarm. Then just turn all the remaining corruptors into BL's once the tempests are gone. Or do an even earlier Infestor/swarm host/roach push, and basically have the same power BL infestor does now. You wont be able to get close to the swarm hosts in order to kill them and every fungal that lands is a death sentence to a chunk of your army. The tempest would possibly help with this. It is of course impossible to know how things will play out or be balanced. Especially since it looks like now protoss gets ezpz expansions like terran or zerg (for different reasons) I think the game could be a lot of fun, but it just seems like to much easy mode, a move, terrible terrible damage, hard countering, super easy thoughtless safe expands, to be much of a serious RTS Esport. I blame Browder for much of the bad design, he is in charge of this dept. and in many interviews both recently and going all the way back to release, his comments demonstrate his poor understanding of the game, balance, and esports. I wouldn't even insult diamond players by saying he has their level of understanding, because it's clearly below that. I wasn't throwing Day under the bus, I just feel he should use his leverage to tell Blizzard they're being idiots. People have said that pro players should be consulted more, but Day9 genuinely has a pretty good understanding of the game and would be fine in that capacity. The E-sports issue blows my mind as well. Ok they're a rich company, but they are throwing a fair amount of money into the WCS pool, and yet these previews seem to show a game that is less suitable as an E-sports vehicle? | ||
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yeastiality
Canada374 Posts
On August 14 2012 12:26 ZAiNs wrote: The Mothership Core Cannon will help dealing with these kind of attacks so much. Bunkers in your main base will also be easy to deal with. so the things that made people like boxer famous and proved how deep starcraft is...will be neutered by triggering one ability? well, can't say there's no precedent for it | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2781 Posts
Awful showing. As everyone has said, the new units look ugly and play horribly instead of adding micro opportunities and splitting up the deathball. | ||
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Arceus
Vietnam8332 Posts
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On August 14 2012 12:25 imJealous wrote: Did anyone else notice that around 10 minutes the observer selects the fleet beacon and the tempest is being built there? You can even see the stargate and its not building anything Confirmed O_O O_O O_O So I guess realistically, you'll only build one at a time. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2781 Posts
On August 14 2012 12:26 ZAiNs wrote: The Mothership Core Cannon will help dealing with these kind of attacks so much. Bunkers in your main base will also be easy to deal with. it was a zerg problem anyway.. | ||
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yeastiality
Canada374 Posts
On August 14 2012 12:29 Arceus wrote: Being a tier3 capital ship, the tempest is just laughable. You can annihilate the opponent with ten BLs or ten BC (with a little support ofc), but you cant do jack shit with teh tempest. It doesnt play any significant role in this battle report either don't forget about how it gets raped by half its cost in vikings a couple times they had the option to not show that (with all the tension about the carrier, design issues, community outreach etc) but they did what does that say about their design process? | ||
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